Europa-List Digest Archive

Mon 10/13/08


Total Messages Posted: 19



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 02:14 AM - Coolant (Paul Stewart)
     2. 02:25 AM - Re: engine surging (Herve)
     3. 03:02 AM - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Coolant? (Carl Pattinson)
     4. 04:11 AM - Re: the next DOTH? (William Harrison)
     5. 06:57 AM - Re: Coolant (Robert C Harrison)
     6. 09:55 AM - Re: Coolant (Paul Stewart)
     7. 11:36 AM - Pete Clark Test Pilot Report G-YURO (Tim Ward)
     8. 12:25 PM - Boiling fuel due to underpressure? (Remi Guerner)
     9. 12:58 PM - Fuel filters (Remi Guerner)
    10. 01:36 PM - Re: Boiling fuel due to underpressure? (Frans Veldman)
    11. 01:43 PM - Re: Boiling fuel due to underpressure? (Frans Veldman)
    12. 02:01 PM - Aileron setup (Frans Veldman)
    13. 02:03 PM - Aileron setup (Frans Veldman)
    14. 02:13 PM - Re: Pete Clark Test Pilot Report G-YURO (Robert C Harrison)
    15. 03:06 PM - Re: Aileron setup (jimpuglise@comcast.net)
    16. 03:55 PM - Re: Aileron setup (Graham Singleton)
    17. 04:03 PM - Re: Boiling fuel due to underpressure? (Graham Singleton)
    18. 04:26 PM - Re: Aileron setup (ALAN YERLY)
    19. 11:20 PM - Re: Aileron setup (Frans Veldman)
 
 
 


Message 1


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:14:36 AM PST US
    From: Paul Stewart <europa@pstewart.f2s.com>
    Subject: Coolant
    SI-914-019R1 says I can use either 50:50 ethylene glycol/water or Evans NPG+. I can't work out if the document is suggesting I MUST monitor coolant temp if using 50:50 mix. Anyone know? Regards Paul G-GIDY


    Message 2


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:25:47 AM PST US
    From: Herve <hervechaussures@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: engine surging
    Hi Ken I did have the same problem with my 914,and the cause for me was the 2 inches rubber pipe from the cab to the air box to the turbo became loose .check them!!! Regards Herve G.CHET t 02:29 13/10/2008, you wrote: >I have some follow-up on the surging problem. Turning off the TCU >does not help anything. In fact, the engine seems to surge and be a >little rougher. I have checked the plugs which were new two hours >ago. The air filter has no effect on the problem. I have checked >the tubing, it is six years old, but looks to be in good condition >and no cracks...course you can't see the underside of a lot of the >tubing. The surging varies. I ran it yesterday and it did not >surge at all...manifold pressure up to 38 and it seemed to be >cured. Then today I ran it again and the surging was back. The >surging is over a range from 5000 down to 2000. Someone was of the >opinion that it was almost like the engine was being turned off and >as the RPM dropped, being turned back on. Since the problem occurs >only at the higher throttle settings, I had assumed it could not be >the electrical system. The engine does diesel some when t urned >off. It has done that for a year or so. I usually turn off the >fuel pumps first and when the pressure drops, then turn off the >ignition. The dieseling is worse if the enginie is hot...like up at >200 degrees or so. The surging is less severe when the engine is >hot...up in the 200 range, and worse with the engine temp at 130. >I am leary of the carbs but it sounds like I will have to tackle >them if no one comes up with an alternate idea. No one around >Knoxville has experience with a Rotax. I asked our AI if he knew >anything about Rotax engines and he said, "Heck, I can't even spell >it!" The intermittant nature of the surging has added to the >frustration. I can't see anything being done to the engine that >makes it behave different. I have the same gas(half auto high >test and half 100LL) in the plane that was in there when I did two >flights before the surging started. The mag check is >normal. Running both fuel pumps increases the pressure reading but >does not change the surging. It did not surge for 500 hours running >on one pump. Thanks for the ideas thus far. >Ken Carpenter >-------------- Original message -------------- >From: "ALAN YERLY" <budyerly@msn.com> >Guys, Here is my one and a half cents. > >When working with Jerry Hope's 914 we found that the reset switch >was all that was necessary to cure the surging... That is always my >first in-flight correction. For my older engine, the wiper on the >pot in the turbo servo wore out with time and the servo began to >hunt. By hitting the reset switch, it momentarily cuts the power >and stabilizes the manifold/boost and the servo related surge/boost >fluctuations stop. > >As for the carb related problems, With the engine at idle, servo >locked out (reset switch held to eliminate the servo from >operating), run the engine up until you see about 35-39 inches of >MP. If the engine does not surge, it is not the carbs. If you have >the dual manometers, and can watch the MP on each carb, that will >tell you volumes about your carb health. If one of the altitude >compensators is hanging up, the engine will sag, calling for more >boost, then the engine boost clears the carb balance problem, but >that causes a momentary over boost which then causes the servo to >cut boost, which then causes the carbs to be out of balance >again. In this case you will see it in the twin manometers and a >carb rebuild kit for $45 will fix you up. The carbs on a 914 take >about 2 hours to get on and off, and 1 hour to replace the seals in >the carbs. Then you get to retune the throttles. Pay attention to >the posit ion of the needle valve slide clip during the rebuild. If >you get one position off, you will be running richer or leaner than >normal. Bing has troubleshooting manual on the web and Rotax has >the carb balancing video you can order, so check it out. > >If your throttle position sensor is worn, that too can cause the >computer to force the engine into a surge on the older slower >computer processor. The program sold by Rotax can check the position sensor. > >For low boost, or leaks, wow, that's a new one on me. I don't get >to fly that high so I have no experience. My low boost problems is >because I don't set the cable right on the servo or the cable slips. > >Rich Schultz found with running on AV Gas, his carbs stayed in tune >if he added just a bit of Marvel Mystery Oil to his gas to lube his >carb. His problems cleared up. > >Bud >Custom Flight Creations >(813) 653-4989 >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:paul.the.aviator@gmail.com>Paul McAllister >To: <mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>europa-list@matronics.com >Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 9:20 PM >Subject: Re: Europa-List: engine surging > ><<mailto:paul.the.aviator@gmail.com>paul.the.aviator@gmail.com> > >Hi Folks, > >Could I offer a contrary view? I got to 600 hours on my 914 with no >sign off issues wih the carbs, but on the adivce of many I sent my >carbs into Lockwood to have them overhauled. What a mistake, the >airplane now uses .3 to .4 more gallons per hour than before and it >took me 4 tries to get the inlet system sealed up again so I could get >maximum boost. > >Actually it still is not right, I can only get 27 inches and 16k feet >and I should be able to get 34" so the darn thong is still leaking. > >With that said, it may well be your carbs, but the first place I would >go is fuel filters, then look at the fuel pressure (needs to be >measured differentially), then onto the turbo waste gate. What you >will need to do is > > ><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > > ><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > >Checked by AVG. >10/12/2008 12:00 PM >


    Message 3


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 03:02:02 AM PST US
    From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Coolant?
    X-mailer: iAVMailScanner 1.5.5.5 For coolant temp read Cylinder Hear Temperature (which you must monitor), however you will need to replace the radiator pressure cap from 0.9 bar to 1.1 bar for which Skydrive will charge you 50 for the priveledge. The other issue is that Evans coolant is incompatible with water based coolants and if you have been using a glycol mix then you will need about 2-3 liters of Evans to flush out the existing water from your system in addition to filling it afterwards. That means you will need two lots of Evans to do the job properly - I think its about 40 quid for 4 litres. Personally I dont see any great advantage to using the Evans coolant IMHO. Others may think differently. However our engine is a standard 80hp 912 and not a 914 so cooling is probably not such a problem. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Stewart" <europa@pstewart.f2s.com> Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 10:11 AM Subject: Europa-List: Coolant > > > SI-914-019R1 says I can use either 50:50 ethylene glycol/water or Evans > NPG+. I can't work out if the document is suggesting I MUST monitor > coolant temp if using 50:50 mix. Anyone know? > > Regards > > Paul > G-GIDY > > > _______________________________________ > No viruses found in this incoming message > Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.5.5 > http://www.iolo.com > _______________________________________ No viruses found in this outgoing message Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.5.5 http://www.iolo.com


    Message 4


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 04:11:39 AM PST US
    From: William Harrison <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: the next DOTH?
    ...and anyone who fancies a flavour of this landing can go to the Long Mynd gliding strip in Shropshire. But if you do, then don't make the mistake we made - aiming to put it down between the boulders we discovered that some of the boulders were sleeping sheep which jumped up and ran in all directions just before touchdown... That wasn't in a Europa but in the very same PA28 which featured in "A Plane is Born" (when Matey is looking at the alternatives to a kit- built aircraft). Willie On 13 Oct 2008, at 00:25, Mike Gregory wrote: > Paul, > > According to http://carlturner.blogspot.com/ > 2008_07_01_archive.html , it was on the Lake District mountain of > Helvellyn in Cumbria: > > "Helvellyn's summit is fairly flat, and in 1926 Australian aviation > pioneer Bert Hinkler (with John Leeming) landed an Avro 585 here. > Hinkler gained worldwide fame two years later when he became the > first man to fly solo from Britain to Australia, an event largely > eclipsed in the public memory when Britain's Amy Johnson repeated > the feat in 1930 thus becoming the first woman to do so." >


    Message 5


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 06:57:57 AM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Coolant
    Hi! Paul I understand that it is a LAA requirement that coolant temp. must be monitored between header outlet and the radiator inlet if operating on 50% glycol and 50% water. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Stewart Sent: 13 October 2008 10:12 Subject: Europa-List: Coolant <europa@pstewart.f2s.com> SI-914-019R1 says I can use either 50:50 ethylene glycol/water or Evans NPG+. I can't work out if the document is suggesting I MUST monitor coolant temp if using 50:50 mix. Anyone know? Regards Paul G-GIDY


    Message 6


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 09:55:51 AM PST US
    From: Paul Stewart <europa@pstewart.f2s.com>
    Subject: Re: Coolant
    Carl / Bob Thanks for the replies Paul On 13 Oct 2008, at 14:56, Robert C Harrison wrote: > > > > Hi! Paul > I understand that it is a LAA requirement that coolant temp. must be > monitored between header outlet and the radiator inlet if operating on > 50% glycol and 50% water. > Regards > Bob Harrison G-PTAG > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul > Stewart > Sent: 13 October 2008 10:12 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Coolant > > <europa@pstewart.f2s.com> > > SI-914-019R1 says I can use either 50:50 ethylene glycol/water or > Evans NPG+. I can't work out if the document is suggesting I MUST > monitor coolant temp if using 50:50 mix. Anyone know? > > Regards > > Paul > G-GIDY > >


    Message 7


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 11:36:58 AM PST US
    From: "Tim Ward" <ward.t@xtra.co.nz>
    Subject: Pete Clark Test Pilot Report G-YURO
    Hi all, Does anybody have a copy of Pete Clark's report on the test flying of the number 1 Europa Classic G-YURO? It use to be on the old company website alas now not on the new company website. It could be on the Europa Club website however I am not a member. Cheers, Tim Europa Classic 292 ZK-TIM 180 hours Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street Fendalton, Christchurch NEW ZEALAND PH 0064 3 3515166 MOB 021 0640221 ward.t@xtra.co.nz


    Message 8


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:25:23 PM PST US
    From: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner@orange.fr>
    Subject: Boiling fuel due to underpressure?
    Frans, Let's take this example: You are flying at full power at 16000 feet, ISA conditions. According to the Rotax Manuals, the air box pressure (absolute pressure) is 1,2 bars. The fuel pressure at the carbs must be 0.25 bars above airbox pressure, that is 1,45 bars absolute. Ambient pressure at 16000ft is 0,53 bars, so the fuel pressure must be 0,92 bars above ambient. The fuel pressure regulator adjusts the flow back to the tank so that the pump is able to supply the required pressure. The Rotax Install Manual provides the pressure curve of the fuel pumps. According this curve, the pump is able to supply 120 liters/hour at zero bar. This is what you get when the engine is not running. However, if you need 0,92 bars (relative pressure), the out put flow has to be restricted to 96 liters /hour. I must admit that the 96 vs 120 liters per hour is not a so big difference, but the fact is that the fuel flow through the filters is reduced when you increase the power. Remi [quote:0fd8912cfa="air.guerner at orange.fr"] The higher the fuel flow, the higher the pressure loss across the filter. On the 914, when the engine is not running, there is of course no boost pressure and therefore the fully open fuel pressure regulator is sending all the fuel back to the tank. This is when the fuel flow across the filters is maximum. However, when the engine is running at max boost, more fuel pressure is required and the regulator sends a lot less fuel back to the tank. Therefore, at high power, the flow through the filters is greatly reduced and bubbles in the filters is less likely and possibly totally eliminated. -----[/quote:0fd8912cfa] Sorry, I don't get it. As far as I understand the fuel pump delivers a constant rate to the engine, and all the fuel not used by the engine is going back to the tank. At high power, still the same is being pumped to the engine, but as the engine is consuming more, less is being sent back to the tank. The fuel filters are however not in the return line, but in the line TO the engine, and they see a constant flow, independant of the actual fuel consumption of the engine. Correct me if I'm wrong. Frans


    Message 9


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:58:52 PM PST US
    From: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner@orange.fr>
    Subject: Fuel filters
    Hi Ira, In France, the only two accidents we had with Europas were due to fuel filter blocage. The two aircraft were destroyed and one pilot was killed. The many cases where the engine was restarted after switching to the back up filter are not reported in the statistics. I believe the Europa supplied filters may be acceptable for a 100 HP normally aspirated engine, but the 914, due to the high fuel flow through the filters (around 100 liters per hour) must be regarded as a 500 HP not a 115 HP engine. Remi Guerner F-PGKL Can you point me in the direction of documentation of the "high number" of accidents or incidents involving fuel filters?


    Message 10


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 01:36:07 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Boiling fuel due to underpressure?
    From: "Frans Veldman" <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
    [quote:6ba7d7472f="air.guerner at orange.fr"]Frans, Let's take this example: You are flying at full power at 16000 feet, ISA conditions. According to the Rotax Manuals, the air box pressure (absolute pressure) is 1,2 bars. The fuel pressure at the carbs must be 0.25 bars above airbox pressure, that is 1,45 bars absolute. Ambient pressure at 16000ft is 0,53 bars, so the fuel pressure must be 0,92 bars above ambient. The fuel pressure regulator adjusts the flow back to the tank so that the pump is able to supply the required pressure. [/quote:6ba7d7472f] I don't agree with that. The fuel pump delivers 120 liters, with 15 psi or something like that. The fuel pressure regulator simply opens a valve when the pressure exceeds a limit, so the excess fuel flows back to the tank. If the engine consumes more, the pressure drops a bit, so the valve closes a bit, and less fuel is flowing back to the tank. Let's say that 96 liters flow back (your example). This means that the engine is using 24 liters per hour. The flow through the filter is 96 + 24 liters, still 120 liters per hour. The ratio may differ, but the total remains constant. You can also see it like this: the pressure regulator does not communicate with the pump, so the pump does not know what is going on and always delivers 120 liters per hour, regardless whether the engine is running at full power, or not even running at all. Anyway, as soon as I have the installation ready I can tell you for sure, as I have a fuel flow sensor in series with both the feed line and the return line. I will tell you how much flows through the filter with various power settings. Frans Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org


    Message 11


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 01:43:51 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Boiling fuel due to underpressure?
    From: "Frans Veldman" <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
    I think you are right, I recommend the Andair GAS 375, stops water and anything bigger than 70micron Graham[/quote:4e544db179] I'm using an Andair GAS 375 for the main fuel pump. For the backup pump I will use a simple filter (at the moment the supplied glass filter). The Andair filter has noticably less fuel boiling problems than the smaller glass filter, so it seems it can handle the flow better, and causes less underpressure and hence less boiling. BTW, the filter for the secondary fuel pump will be hardly used: when both pumps are running then all the fuel will still go through the Andair filter. The glass filter only sees fuel when the main pump stops, or when the Andair is clogged. This is the reason I think to have two Andairs is a bit overkill. Frans Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org


    Message 12


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:01:45 PM PST US
    Subject: Aileron setup
    From: "Frans Veldman" <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
    The aileron setup procedure is driving me nuts. The right aileron has way too much down movement. If I shorten the link rod (as recommended by the manual), the down movement gets less, almost correct (now only 0.7 too much), but then the up movement exceeds the upper limit. The left aileron is working ok. That means: it does everything a bit less than the right aileron. 1) What could be causing this? I have set up everything according to the manual, as far as I know. I suspected that the distance between the aileron hinge and the bolt for the link rod would be incorrect, but after measuring it, it is correct for both ailerons. I'm puzzeled by this. Is it possible that one of the factory holes for one of the bell cranks is incorrectly positioned, so that the lever action for both ailerons isn't equal? 2) How do I solve it? Is this something that I can tune away with one of the various link/push/connecting rods? 3) Am I the only one with this problem? I can't find anything in the archives about this... Thanks in advance for any ideas... Frans Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org


    Message 13


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:03:33 PM PST US
    Subject: Aileron setup
    From: "Frans Veldman" <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
    The aileron setup procedure is driving me nuts. The right aileron has way too much down movement. If I shorten the link rod (as recommended by the manual), the down movement gets less, almost correct (now only 0.7 too much), but then the up movement exceeds the upper limit. The left aileron is working ok. That means: it does everything a bit less than the right aileron. 1) What could be causing this? I have set up everything according to the manual, as far as I know. I suspected that the distance between the aileron hinge and the bolt for the link rod would be incorrect, but after measuring it, it is correct for both ailerons. I'm puzzeled by this. Is it possible that one of the factory holes for one of the bell cranks is incorrectly positioned, so that the lever action for both ailerons isn't equal? 2) How do I solve it? Is this something that I can tune away with one of the various link/push/connecting rods? 3) Am I the only one with this problem? I can't find anything in the archives about this... Thanks in advance for any ideas... Frans Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org


    Message 14


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:13:44 PM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Pete Clark Test Pilot Report G-YURO
    Hi! Tim It was also part of the Original Video Tape PR of Europa Aircraft Ltd. Where I recall him counting 13 spins prior to pulling out........and only 500 hours to build the aircraft ! Regards Bob Harrison. G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Ward Sent: 13 October 2008 19:34 Subject: Europa-List: Pete Clark Test Pilot Report G-YURO Hi all, Does anybody have a copy of Pete Clark's report on the test flying of the number 1 Europa Classic G-YURO? It use to be on the old company website alas now not on the new company website. It could be on the Europa Club website however I am not a member. Cheers, Tim Europa Classic 292 ZK-TIM 180 hours Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street Fendalton, Christchurch NEW ZEALAND PH 0064 3 3515166 MOB 021 0640221 ward.t@xtra.co.nz


    Message 15


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 03:06:53 PM PST US
    From: jimpuglise@comcast.net
    Subject: Re: Aileron setup
    Frans- You talk about shortening the link rod. I don't think that is what you mean. You should have about 3/4 inch of adjustment on each end of the rod by screwing or unscrewing the rod end from the AN490HT8P. I just did mine a couple of months ago and the limiting factor for me was the skin, which had to be carefully trimmed to permit the correct movement, but as far as the mechanism is concerned, you should be able to adjust it quite easily. You also mention .7 too much. You really need to use a bubble inclinometer to set them up. If you are using the measurement to the wingtip, it can be off based on how far the aileron end is from it. I don't know what is available there, but I picked up a very easy to use inclinometer at Home Depot here in the US and it made measuring the amount of travel a snap. Jim Puglise A-283 Punta Gorda, FL -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Frans Veldman" <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl> > > The aileron setup procedure is driving me nuts. The right aileron has way too > much down movement. If I shorten the link rod (as recommended by the manual), > the down movement gets less, almost correct (now only 0.7 too much), but then > the up movement exceeds the upper limit. The left aileron is working ok. That > means: it does everything a bit less than the right aileron. > > 1) What could be causing this? I have set up everything according to the manual, > as far as I know. I suspected that the distance between the aileron hinge and > the bolt for the link rod would be incorrect, but after measuring it, it is > correct for both ailerons. I'm puzzeled by this. Is it possible that one of the > factory holes for one of the bell cranks is incorrectly positioned, so that the > lever action for both ailerons isn't equal? > > 2) How do I solve it? Is this something that I can tune away with one of the > various link/push/connecting rods? > > 3) Am I the only one with this problem? I can't find anything in the archives > about this... > > Thanks in advance for any ideas... > > Frans > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > > > > > > <html><body> <DIV>Frans-</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>You talk about shortening the link rod.&nbsp; I don't think that is what you mean.&nbsp; You should have about 3/4 inch of adjustment on each end of the rod by screwing or unscrewing the rod end from the AN490HT8P.&nbsp; I just did mine a couple of months ago and the limiting&nbsp;factor for me was the skin, which had to be carefully trimmed to permit the correct movement, but as far as the mechanism is concerned, you should be able to&nbsp;adjust it&nbsp;quite easily.&nbsp; You also mention .7 too much.&nbsp; You really need to use a&nbsp;bubble inclinometer to set&nbsp;them up.&nbsp; If you are using the measurement to the wingtip, it can be off based on how far the aileron end is from it.&nbsp; I don't know what is available there, but I picked up a very easy to use inclinometer at Home Depot here in the US&nbsp;and it made measuring the amount of travel a snap.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Jim Puglise A-283 Punta Gorda, FL&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Frans Veldman" &lt;frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl&gt; <BR><BR>&gt; --&gt; Europa-List message posted by: "Frans Veldman" <FRANS@PAARDNATUURLIJK.NL><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The aileron setup procedure is driving me nuts. The right aileron has way too <BR>&gt; much down movement. If I shorten the link rod (as recommended by the manual), <BR>&gt; the down movement gets less, almost correct (now only 0.7 too much), but then <BR>&gt; the up movement exceeds the upper limit. The left aileron is working ok. That <BR>&gt; means: it does everything a bit less than the right aileron. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 1) What could be causing this? I have set up everything according to the manual, <BR>&gt; as far as I know. I suspected that the distance between the aileron hinge and <BR>&gt; the bolt for the link rod would be incorrect, but after measuring it, it is <BR>& gt; co Brows <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier"> </b></font></pre></body></html>


    Message 16


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 03:55:21 PM PST US
    From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Aileron setup
    Frans Veldman wrote: > The aileron setup procedure is driving me nuts. The right aileron has way too much down movement. > Been there, done that. Mopre than once too :-( > 1) What could be causing this? I have set up everything according to the manual, as far as I know. I suspected that the distance between the aileron hinge and the bolt for the link rod would be incorrect, but after measuring it, it is correct for both ailerons. I'm puzzeled by this. Is it possible that one of the factory holes for one of the bell cranks is incorrectly positioned, so that the lever action for both ailerons isn't equal? > > 2) How do I solve it? Is this something that I can tune away with one of the various link/push/connecting rods? > > Frans Frans, first adjust the link rod so that the aileron hits its own stop at the correct angle. Its the stops that control everything. Do that for both ailerons before the wings are rigged. Then set up the quick connect bell cranks so that they are vertical when the ailerons are neutral. Aim for neutral slightly up, there should be a bit of reflex on the trailing edge. Maybe 1/4" (6mm) at the TE. Finally adjust the central links, When adjusting the rod end fittings, make sure there is enough length of thread inserted into the fittings, about 1.5 X D One more thing, get a second opinion on the above, long time since I did it ;-) Graham


    Message 17


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 04:03:37 PM PST US
    From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Boiling fuel due to underpressure?
    Frans Veldman wrote: > > > I think you are right, I recommend the Andair GAS 375, stops water and > anything bigger than 70micron > Graham[/quote:4e544db179] > > I'm using an Andair GAS 375 for the main fuel pump. For the backup pump I will use a simple filter (at the moment the supplied glass filter). The Andair filter has noticably less fuel boiling problems than the smaller glass filter, so it seems it can handle the flow better, and causes less underpressure and hence less boiling. > > BTW, the filter for the secondary fuel pump will be hardly used: when both pumps are running then all the fuel will still go through the Andair filter. The glass filter only sees fuel when the main pump stops, or when the Andair is clogged. This is the reason I think to have two Andairs is a bit overkill. > > Frans > the Andair is designed so that any entrained air is bled out of the filter, the awful glass thing doesn't, so it sits there threatening you and masking any fine contamination.. I recommend pumping the fuel into a can through a clear tube from just before the carbs and looking for bubbles. If there are any it implies air being sucked in through minor leaks upstream of the pump. Certainly when everything is cold during testing. Test at low fuel level is more searching. Graham


    Message 18


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 04:26:21 PM PST US
    From: "ALAN YERLY" <budyerly@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: Aileron setup
    Frans and other frustrated riggers, Keep your frustration level lower by looking into my typical setup. Done this way, I can rig a new Europa in about an hour. If not it can take all day. Laws for initial setup: The CS 08s and sticks must be vertical in the fuselage with the QD vertical with all the push rods rigged and tight. The short link rod to the aileron is only set once at the full aileron stop. Set your long push rods so that when the aileron is level, the quick disconnect is 90 degrees to the line between the main spar pins. If you cannot rig the QD at the root to vertical with the aileron level, you have the rod the wrong length, or an assembly error. The aileron mass balance arms must allow full down aileron travel of 22 degrees. I make sure I have nearly 24 degrees to allow for finishing. If you cannot get 22 degrees down, you must decrease your up stop accordingly. Aileron root closeouts must allow full aileron up and down without contact. Now start your adjustments. 1st. Always set your stop in each wing to the up stop limit. I use 24 degrees (vice 25.5) from experience. The aileron on your hinge should show on the protractor 24 degrees (measured at the hinge) and the short link rod set so the bell crank is hard against the up stop. Do the other wing the same way. 2nd. Rig the fuselage quick disconnects and sticks to vertical. 3rd. Rig the wings. Shim your QDs to take out the slop in the ailerons using phenolic or aluminum shims. Typically I premake the shims when I make the initial wing rig. I just super glue them on for the initial setup. Remember, when you Redux the shims on, the Redux is nearly 1/64th of an inch, so compensate. 4th. With all slop removed, you should now be able to check the positions of the ailerons. If built by the book, they should be within 1/4 inch of level. Important! You adjust the long lateral rod to correct the aileron to the center position, not the outer. 5th. Disconnect the QD from the wing root and rotate the rod about 1 turn per 3/16 inch until the aileron is centered. Repeat for the other wing. With both wings rigged again, check your throw. You should hear and feel the aileron bell crank hit the up stop with the deflection of 24 degrees up without the opposite mass balance arms hitting the skin of the opposite wing. Try it both ways. If the mass balance arms hit, you will have to reduce the max throw or correct the arm. If you have the time and want more throw, reset the up stop to 25 degrees and repeat. I never do because your knees determine max aileron throw most of the time. Some problems occur with stick movement when the aileron bell crank, CS 08, in the fuselage binds against the pitch tube (especially with the stick aft) or were not set vertical properly during build. Moving the stick forward or blocking the stabilator to level will allow you to continue the aileron rig. It only took me about 8 aircraft trimmings to learn this. Relax, it is a bit more of a chore with a glider wing. Both wings do rig well and even limited to 24 degrees of up, you will be delighted with the roll rate. Frans, for your situation it sounds like you need to just work the right wing, but when in doubt, start over. Happy building and I hope it works out. If you have a build error which needs correcting, email me at budyerly@msn.com<mailto:budyerly@msn.com>. Bud Yerly, Custom Flight Creations (813) 653-4989 ----- Original Message ----- From: Frans Veldman<mailto:frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl> To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com> Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 4:58 PM Subject: Europa-List: Aileron setup <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl<mailto:frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>> The aileron setup procedure is driving me nuts. The right aileron has way too much down movement. If I shorten the link rod (as recommended by the manual), the down movement gets less, almost correct (now only 0.7 too much), but then the up movement exceeds the upper limit. The left aileron is working ok. That means: it does everything a bit less than the right aileron. 1) What could be causing this? I have set up everything according to the manual, as far as I know. I suspected that the distance between the aileron hinge and the bolt for the link rod would be incorrect, but after measuring it, it is correct for both ailerons. I'm puzzeled by this. Is it possible that one of the factory holes for one of the bell cranks is incorrectly positioned, so that the lever action for both ailerons isn't equal? 2) How do I solve it? Is this something that I can tune away with one of the various link/push/connecting rods? 3) Am I the only one with this problem? I can't find anything in the archives about this... Thanks in advance for any ideas... Frans Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org<http://www.europaowners.org/> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?Europa-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi on>


    Message 19


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 11:20:28 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Aileron setup
    From: "Frans Veldman" <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
    Thanks for all the advice. I will try again, but the desciptions look like what I have been doing so far. The points is, if I start with the QD's vertical, the link rods adjusted to the upper limit, I somehow end up with about 26 degrees down travel for the starboard aileron. As soon as I start correcting this by adjusting the link rod, it messes up all the other parameters, such as upper aileron limit, neutral setting etc and whatever I try, I can't get it right anymore. The weather doesn't look promising today, so I can't get the airplane outside to try again. BTW, I use the Europa factory sold digital level, and measure compared against the wing tip, i.e. neutral is the aileron parallel to the wing tip. Frans Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org




    Other Matronics Email List Services

  • Post A New Message
  •   europa-list@matronics.com
  • UN/SUBSCRIBE
  •   http://www.matronics.com/subscription
  • List FAQ
  •   http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm
  • Web Forum Interface To Lists
  •   http://forums.matronics.com
  • Matronics List Wiki
  •   http://wiki.matronics.com
  • 7-Day List Browse
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list
  • Browse Europa-List Digests
  •   http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list
  • Browse Other Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse
  • Live Online Chat!
  •   http://www.matronics.com/chat
  • Archive Downloading
  •   http://www.matronics.com/archives
  • Photo Share
  •   http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
  • Other Email Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
  • Contributions
  •   http://www.matronics.com/contribution

    These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.

    -- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --