Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:43 AM - Re: fuel pump etc (Greg Fuchs)
2. 04:33 AM - Re: trigear (vicflett@tiscali.co.uk)
3. 03:54 PM - Re: fuel pump etc (Rowland & Wilma Carson)
4. 07:33 PM - Re: fuel pump etc (Greg Fuchs)
Message 1
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It seems that decreasing the pumping volume in the lines up to the intake of
the pump would speed the fuel through a bit quicker, especially in partially
blocked filter situations (So I wonder if 'tortuous plumbing' could mean:
bigger fuel lines). I am considering a slightly smaller inlet area to the
pumps, than on the output of the pumps. For example: 5/16" aluminum tubing
on the input to the pump, and 3/8" on the output, though haven't verified
the flow rate for the 5/16" yet (at pressure, -intend using 914).
Originally, I was going to mount the filters under the seat (before the
pumps, to protect them), and the gascolator well 'behind' the pumps in a
typical area, up front by the engine, but have seen a few engine outs due to
fuel starvation of just one filter. One could always switch to the reserve
tank, but in the 'heat of the battle' of takeoff, that could be considered
difficult or dangerous. Now the filters intended position will be moved to
just before each pump (in the series//parallel mode, next to the Andair
check valves), and a water drain/check mounted in the seat well, in place of
where the filter was to originally go.
Rowland, I am currently planning to go the route you were surmising, and
will put 3/8" aluminum in the long runs through the cockpit module (pump to
engine, engine return back to tank). This will obviate the need to replace
the rubber there. The lines are being installed now, before the module gets
cemented in place. I have the Tri-gear, and am running the fuel line roughly
where the manual calls it out, a bit below the top of the center console.
Hopefully, it will be adequate (fingers crossed).
Looking at all the fittings needed (and the lack of), hooking it all
together seems a bit overwhelming. It is hard to find 5/16" of anything
articulate, and many things on the Europa use 5/16". I think the pump needs
a 5/16 to 12mm adapter (from memory, so it may be wrong). The Andair check
valves could use 3/8 or 1/4" fittings, and so on. Don't know what the return
feedline needs from the regulator output. Many options, and also many
limited options. If anyone has produced a table, or schematic, or drawing of
all the different fittings sizes, and where they were used, it would be oh
so most helpful to me, as I have already pulled out some of my hair :). Even
if it isn't the exact way I will be implementing, it would still give a good
idea of what fitting is needed where...
Regards,
Greg Fuchs
A050 XS TRI 914
-----Original Message-----
Depends on the type of pump.
A roller-cell pump (914 etc) is very intolerant of dirt (it scores the
traces in the pump). The shuttle type pump (eg Facet) is far more tolerant.
Both types of pump are much better at pushing than pulling; so any partial
blockage of a filter on the suction side will test the ability of the pump
to suck (typically a maximum suction head of 0.6m is quoted for roller cell
pumps; much of this allowance can be used up with high flow rates and the
tortuous plumbing frequently seen). This is asking for trouble, particularly
if Mogas is being used.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
> (Of course in this context "ahead" may be the same). The last thing you
> need in the pump is unfiltered fuel.
> Regards
> Bob H G-PTAG
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: fuel pump etc
> At 2008-10-26 20:29 -0400 DuaneFamly@aol.com wrote:
>
>>This is what I did.....
>
> Mike - thanks for the nice pictures. The layout looks neat ....
> But shouldn't the gascolator be ahead of the fuel pump in the sequence?
>
> regards
>
> Rowland
Message 2
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Thanks Graham
Vic
>----Original Message----
>From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com
>Date: 04/11/2008 0:34
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subj: Re: Europa-List: trigear
>
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
>fraser221 wrote:
uk>
>>
>> can anyone tell me if the trigear conversion kit is the same for
the xs model as the classic please.
>>
>> vic
>> kit 499
>> just starting out
>Yes
>Graham
>
>
____________________________________________________________
What does the weather hold for us? - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/weather
____________________________________________________________
Message 3
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At 2008-11-04 02:42 -0800 Greg Fuchs wrote:
>If anyone has produced a table, or schematic, or drawing of
>all the different fittings sizes, and where they were used, it would be oh
>so most helpful to me
Greg - here's the list I have prepared so far, for a 912S installation.
Port outlet, tank fitting A, side 1/4" NPT
AN822-6D elbow
AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut
3/8" OD aluminium tube
AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut
AN822-6D elbow
FS20x7F Andair left inlet
Starboard outlet, tank fitting B, side 1/4" NPT
AN822-6D elbow
AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut
3/8" OD aluminium tube
AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut
AN822-6D elbow
FS20x7F Andair right inlet
FS20x7F Andair bottom outlet
AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut
3/8" OD aluminium tube
AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut
GAS375 Andair gascolator inlet
GAS375 Andair gascolator drain
DV125 Andair drain valve
GAS375 Andair gascolator primer port
NP125 Andair 1/8" NPT plug (AN913-1D)
GAS375 Andair gascolator outlet
AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut
3/8" OD aluminium tube
AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut
AN6 to 1/8" NPT straight or elbow?
Fuel pump inlet
Fuel pump outlet
AN6 to 1/8"NPT straight or elbow
AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut
3/8" OD aluminium tube
AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut
AN832-6D bulkhead union & AN924-6D nut
101-06 aluminium hose-end straight
100-06 SS braided nitrile hose
Engine-driven pump inlet - 8mm - Speedflow hose finisher clamp
Engine-driven pump outlet - 6mm - what? - to carbs
Carbs fuel return through restrictor + 6mm adaptor?
100-06 SS braided nitrile hose
AN832-6D bulkhead union & AN924-6D nut
AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut
3/8" OD aluminium tube
AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut
AN823-6D elbow
Vent, tank fitting C, side 1/4" NPT
Port outlet, tank fitting A, end 1/8" NPT
AN914-1D elbow
DV125 Andair drain valve
Starboard outlet, tank fitting B, end 1/8" NPT
AN914-1D elbow
Andair drain valve
Port outlet, tank fitting A, side 1/8" NPT
AN842-4D elbow
Restrictor
TU23RM 6mm polyurethane sight tube
AN838-4D bulkhead elbow & AN924-4D nut
Filler moulding top end
Vent, tank fitting C, end 1/4" NPT
AN823-6D elbow
AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut
3/8" OD aluminium tube
AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut
AN833-6D elbow & AN924-6D nut
Filler moulding top end
Filler moulding top end
AN833-4D elbow & AN924-4D nut
AN819-4D sleeve & AN818-4D nut
1/4" OD aluminium tube to atmosphere
This is still subject to editing in the light of experience - but I
hope it will be of some use.
Note that I am planning to leave out the factory-supplied glass
filters which are intended to be fitted upstream of the selector. My
thinking is that the filter area in the Andair gascolator is so much
bigger than the factory ones, and it will be so much easier to check,
that having 1 filter instead of 2 will not increase risk of fuel
starvation significantly.
I am also planning to modify Graham Singleton's sight gauge
modification, by taking the upper end to the filler moulding instead
of the top tank vent. I've heard reports of fuel coming back down
from the vent when the tank is filled and causing airlocks in the
sight gauge.
BTW, apologies for my late responses to the original replies to my
posting. The Matronics list server suddenly decided to reject my
messages, thanks to a badly-configured spam filter, and it was
several days before i could get through again.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1150 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail <rowil@clara.net>
Message 4
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Hi Rowland,
See responses below:
>>If anyone has produced a table, or schematic, or drawing of
>>all the different fittings sizes, and where they were used, it would be oh
>>so most helpful to me
>This is still subject to editing in the light of experience - but I
>hope it will be of some use.
I am sure it will, and will take a look at this tomorrow. Tonight I have an
election result family gathering to tend to.
I am sure it will, I thought it might be you, that had some info on this,
being one of the more thorough of anyone on the site.
>Note that I am planning to leave out the factory-supplied glass
>filters which are intended to be fitted upstream of the selector. My
>thinking is that the filter area in the Andair gascolator is so much
>bigger than the factory ones, and it will be so much easier to check,
>that having 1 filter instead of 2 will not increase risk of fuel
>starvation significantly.
Good point. It sounds like a better than factory arrangement. I too, will
not be using the glass filters. They will be replaced however, by two more
filters (yet to be determined), with a very large surface area on its filter
media. They will be downstream of the selector, as well, and each will be
installed on the input to the pump. The Andair gascolator (I plan to install
it near the engine) will be the large one, with increased surface area, as
well. I have not thought it out yet, but plan to have pressure or suction
measurements on both pumps, to provide advanced warning to failure of either
side (pump-filter combos). Unfortunately, there will be 3 filters to tend
to, as opposed to 1. Two though, basically care for themselves (with
real-time feedback), and the other will be checked before each flight, for
water mostly.
>I am also planning to modify Graham Singleton's sight gauge
>modification, by taking the upper end to the filler moulding instead
>of the top tank vent. I've heard reports of fuel coming back down
>from the vent when the tank is filled and causing airlocks in the
>sight gauge.
I decided to skip the glass sight gauge for now, and see how the special
tubing that others have tried (the pvc with Teflon lining inside) works
first. It runs up the seat-back, but final supports for it will come
later(it needs a slightly wider turn radius, to prevent kinking of the
Teflon liner). That seems to be the more simple way, for now. Alternatively,
all of the turns will be replaced with normal multi-fuel capable black fuel
hose, and the 'special' tubing will be only used at the sight area, using
some fittings.
The site tube connection to the filler tube seems to be a good way to go,
for more than one reason(fuel spillage, air pressure, ?).
ALAN YERLY has some good pics on sight tube location at
customflightcreations.com. It seems to be about the same.
>BTW, apologies for my late responses to the original replies to my
>posting. The Matronics list server suddenly decided to reject my
>messages, thanks to a badly-configured spam filter, and it was
>several days before i could get through again.
I was delayed too, but I was just busy. Your excuse is a bit better than
mine :):)
Regards,
Greg F.
XS TRI 914
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