Europa-List Digest Archive

Wed 11/12/08


Total Messages Posted: 15



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     0. 12:21 AM - Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists (Matt Dralle)
     1. 11:20 AM - Wednesday DOTH (Richard Iddon)
     2. 11:21 AM - Re: Antenna routing without effecting pitch trim indicator (Frans Veldman)
     3. 11:33 AM - Re: Antenna routing without effecting pitch trim indicator (jimpuglise@comcast.net)
     4. 11:45 AM - Re: Wednesday DOTH (Bryan Allsop)
     5. 11:49 AM - Re: Wednesday DOTH (Robert C Harrison)
     6. 11:57 AM - Re: Wednesday DOTH (Robert C Harrison)
     7. 12:11 PM - Re: Antenna routing without effecting pitch trim i (rparigoris)
     8. 02:03 PM - Re: Antenna routing without effecting pitch trim i (Frans Veldman)
     9. 02:47 PM - Re: Antenna routing without effecting pitch trim i ()
    10. 03:08 PM - mode s transponders (Rowland & Wilma Carson)
    11. 03:45 PM - Re: Berube conventional gear (Graham Singleton)
    12. 03:53 PM - Re: Wednesday DOTH (Graham Singleton)
    13. 04:07 PM - Re: Berube conventional gear (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
    14. 05:26 PM - Re: Antenna routing without effecting pitch trim i (jimpuglise@comcast.net)
 
 
 


Message 0


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    Time: 12:21:53 AM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists
    Dear Listers, There is no advertising income to support the Matronics Email Lists and Forums. The operation is supported 100% by your personal Contributions during the November Fund Raiser. Please make your Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these services. You can pick up a really nice gift for making your Contribution too! You may use a Credit Card or Paypal at the Matronics Contribution Site here: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or, you can send a personal check to the following address: Matronics / Matt Dralle PO Box 347 Livermore, CA 94551-0347 Thank you in advance for your generous support! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator


    Message 1


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    Time: 11:20:46 AM PST US
    From: "Richard Iddon" <riddon@sent.com>
    Subject: Wednesday DOTH
    7 Europa's made it to Halfpenny Green today in great flying conditions (for most anyway). I enjoyed a particularly nice flight home over the Welsh hills. Thanks to all who came. Richard Iddon G-RIXS Do not archive


    Message 2


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    Time: 11:21:53 AM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
    Subject: Re: Antenna routing without effecting pitch trim indicator
    rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: > > Was wondering specifics on wiring, how not to have radio transmission > effect pitch trim indicator? > > Use of twisted Steinair servo wire? > Use shielded signal wire for indicator perhaps? Where to get or how to > make? > RG400 versus RG58? Most important factor is not to have RF on the shield. That is, sometimes the shield of the coax is behaving as if it is part of the radiating part of the antenna. In many setups, the shield is connected directly to one half of the dipole antenna. If this is the case, the shield starts radiating as well (the electrical current has no way to determine where the antenna ends and the coax begins), creating heavoc with all other conducters in its near environment. It is common practice for radio engineers to use some kind of transformer between the antenna and the coax. Apart from transforming the impedance, it also converts from balanced (the dipole) to unbalanced (the coax). You might search on google for "balun", which describes precisely such a transformer, which can be built with coax or other easily available materials. Alternatively, you can coil up part of the RG-58 as close as possible near the antenna. Some people use toroids over the antenna cable, but the effect is highly dependable on the kind of torroids used. Best bet is to use some kind of transformer. The aim is to make the shield of the coax radio-neutral. If the shield is neutral, there will be still substantial radiation from the antenna, but it is further away from other wires, and in our Europa setup, the field is almost 90 degrees offset compared to the other wires, so they won't pick up very much. For some sensitive equipment though, it may be still too much. You can loop these wires through a toroid, or just coil them up in a tight loop at their ends, so the radio signal doesn't enter either the source or destination of these wires. > Will have a Bob Archer antenna in rudder. This antenna won't be better than just an ordinairy dipole in the rudder, whether it be the Europa dipole, a homemade dipole, or a big $$$ dipole. Physics (and interference) remains the same for all brands. Also, RG-58 is the best cable, if you balance costs and performance. Best regards, Frans Veldman


    Message 3


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    Time: 11:33:47 AM PST US
    From: jimpuglise@comcast.net
    Subject: Re: Antenna routing without effecting pitch trim indicator
    It also helps if you tune the antenna prior to using it.=C2- Standing wav es tend to go back down the outer shield, so a mistuned antenna is more lik ely to create problems than one that is properly tuned.=C2- You should no t use the rudder post antenna unless you have done so.=C2- The Europa kit ships with 4 toroids and they may also help.=C2- If you are in Europe, t he Club has an SWR bridge for loan.=C2- The taill post antenna is really a nice solution.=C2- I am also installing a second vertical dipole antenn a in mine for amateur use just aft of the baggage bay.=C2- I am running t he coaxial cables (two VHF antennas and one transponder antenna) down the s tarboard side of the fuselage and the electrical wires (strobes, elevator t rim) down the port side.=C2- Jim Puglise A-283 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frans Veldman" <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 2:21:36 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected Subject: Re: Europa-List: Antenna routing without effecting pitch trim indi cator rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: > > Was wondering specifics on wiring, how not to have radio transmission > effect pitch trim indicator? > > Use of twisted Steinair servo wire? > Use shielded signal wire for indicator perhaps? Where to get or how to > make? > RG400 versus RG58? Most important factor is not to have RF on the shield. That is, sometimes the shield of the coax is behaving as if it is part of the radiating part of the antenna. In many setups, the shield is connected directly to one half of the dipole antenna. If this is the case, the shield starts radiating as well (the electrical current has no way to determine where the antenna ends and the coax begins), creating heavoc with all other conducters in its near environment. It is common practice for radio engineers to use some kind of transformer between the antenna and the coax. Apart from transforming the impedance, it also converts from balanced (the dipole) to unbalanced (the coax). You might search on google for "balun", which describes precisely such a transformer, which can be built with coax or other easily available materials. Alternatively, you can coil up part of the RG-58 as close as possible near the antenna. Some people use toroids over the antenna cable, but the effect is highly dependable on the kind of torroids used. Best bet is to use some kind of transformer. The aim is to make the shield of the coax radio-neutral. If the shield is neutral, there will be still substantial radiation from the antenna, but it is further away from other wires, and in our Europa setup, the field is almost 90 degrees offset compared to the other wires, so they won't pick up very much. For some sensitive equipment though, it may be still too much. You can loop these wires through a toroid, or just coil them up in a tight loop at their ends, so the radio signal doesn't enter either the source or destination of these wires. > Will have a Bob Archer antenna in rudder. This antenna won't be better than just an ordinairy dipole in the rudder, whether it be the Europa dipole, a homemade dipole, or a big $$$ dipole. Physics (and interference) remains the same for all brands. Also, RG-58 is the best cable, if you balance costs and performance. Best regards, Frans Veldman =========== =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2--Matt Dralle, List Admin. =========== =========== MS - ===========


    Message 4


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    Time: 11:45:37 AM PST US
    From: Bryan Allsop <bryanallsop@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Wednesday DOTH
    Sorry I could not make it. Bryan From: riddon@sent.comTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Europa-List: Wed nesday DOTHDate: Wed=2C 12 Nov 2008 19:19:31 +0000 7 Europa=92s made it to Halfpenny Green today in great flying conditions (f or most anyway). I enjoyed a particularly nice flight home over the Welsh h ills. Thanks to all who came. Richard Iddon G-RIXS Do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC=2C the Web=2C and your mobile phone with Windows Live


    Message 5


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    Time: 11:49:12 AM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Wednesday DOTH
    Yep! Nice call Richard we had a great flight each way....only spoilt when I reversed the damn aircraft trailer down the side of my neighbour's badly parked Ford Ka. If the main Volvo dealers had kept nearside mirrors in stock when I hoped to pick one up yesterday it would have been possible to see the impending happening ...likewise if the stupid cow of an oncoming horse box driver a metre off her n/s kerb the hadn't squeezed me into some nearside parked cars I wouldn't have needed a bloody mirror in the first place !!!!!!! Having said all that I was a "prat" not having a flag man or a reversing TV camera ! Happy days ! Regards Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Iddon Sent: 12 November 2008 19:20 Subject: Europa-List: Wednesday DOTH 7 Europa's made it to Halfpenny Green today in great flying conditions (for most anyway). I enjoyed a particularly nice flight home over the Welsh hills. Thanks to all who came. Richard Iddon G-RIXS Do not archive


    Message 6


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    Time: 11:57:33 AM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Wednesday DOTH
    Hi Richard ..but intended for all!...... Actually further to my last reply I messaged the pilot of G-_ _ BR on departure through Halfpenny Green ATC that his nose wheel was shimmying violently on his take off run. If he managed to get landed without disintegrating his nose wheel spat or loosing his wheel he must attend to the shimmy adjustment and/or put in shimmy damper friction grease on it before next flight in his own serious interests. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Iddon Sent: 12 November 2008 19:20 Subject: Europa-List: Wednesday DOTH 7 Europa's made it to Halfpenny Green today in great flying conditions (for most anyway). I enjoyed a particularly nice flight home over the Welsh hills. Thanks to all who came. Richard Iddon G-RIXS Do not archive


    Message 7


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    Time: 12:11:39 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Antenna routing without effecting pitch trim i
    From: "rparigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
    Hi Jim Thx. for the reply. "You should not use the rudder post antenna unless you have done so. The Europa kit ships with 4 toroids and they may also help. The taill post antenna is really a nice solution." Sorry, don't understand the difference between a rudder post antenna and a tail post antenna?? My kit A-265 picked up Lakeland 04-2003 did not come with toroids. Are you saying newer kits are shipped with toroids for copper foil dipole antennas? You think they would be worth while installing with a Bob Archer antenna "real big E shape". Before I bond top on, I want to test power and SWR of radios and try and tweak location and fix any problems that may pop up like pitch indicator signal wire catching noise from radio transmission or?? Ron P. Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org


    Message 8


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    Time: 02:03:30 PM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
    Subject: Re: Antenna routing without effecting pitch trim i
    rparigoris wrote: > Before I bond top on, I want to test power and SWR of radios and try and tweak location and fix any problems that may pop up like pitch indicator signal wire catching noise from radio transmission or?? Well, SWR is dependant on the environment of the antenna. Be prepared to see some changes after you bond on the top, install a strobe on top of the fin, install a tail wheel, or even do some painting. The antenna is most sensitive to changes in the environment of its outer ends. If you happen to have an SWR meter, make sure to fool around with some metal parts near the antenna, to see what the influence is. Use gloves for it, as RF might actually bite you quite a bit. If you want to be cool, hold a transfluorent tube (spelling?) near the antenna and watch how it starts glowing as if it is connected to the mains. A LED with some wire attached to its pins is also neat. Anyway, the moral is: Best leave the SWR-tuning till the bare end. That is, leave the antenna a bit too long (best SWR match on the lower part of the frequency range) and do the final tuning when the airplane is ready (including the paint). It is easier to clip something of the antenna than to have to enlarge it. Oh, and before I forget, try to lead the coax away from the antenna in a 90 degree angle for as long as possible. The shield of the coax will pick up the radiated signal if it is parallel to the antenna, and radiate it further down again, and this is what you want to avoid. Best regards, Frans Veldman


    Message 9


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    Time: 02:47:54 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Antenna routing without effecting pitch trim i
    From: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
    Hi Frans Thx. for the reply. Good information! I was going to cleco top on and install as much metal stuff and wiring as I could. Can a Bob Archer "big E shaped" flat aluminium sheet antenna be tuned for best SWR? If yes how can you tune it? I also have a AAE antenna that will be installed just aft of the baggage bay bulkhead. I think it is a dipole antenna??? that is encapsulated with fiberglass and is flexible. I plan to install it bent in half, half vertical and half horizontal so it works equally bad for nav and comm on my panel mounted Vertex hand-held. According to vertex and AAE it should work about 70% on both Nav and Comm compared to having 100% in proper direction for each. According to AAE it needs no tuning?? Won't have paint on fuse though. One thing is with Bob Archer can't install with exact E shape, so will fool with different angles and see if can optimize SWR and have it fit in rudder. With AAE, will try 90 degree bend and location to see if repositioning can improve SWR. How would one tune AAE antenna? Ron P.


    Message 10


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    Time: 03:08:40 PM PST US
    From: Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil@clara.net>
    Subject: mode s transponders
    Further to the discussion here a while back about choices in Mode S transponders, I have just noticed a player new to me in this field - Garrecht. They are at <www.garrecht.co.uk> or phone +44 1858 575665. Prices seem similar to several others, but the size of the VT-01 is about the smallest yet at 61.5 x 61.5 x 168 mm. That's shorter than the Filser, but it claims more output power. I wonder if any of these boxes might be on display at Splash - or is that too focussed on the lightweight end for distributors / manufacturers to bother? regards Rowland -- | Wilma & Rowland Carson http://home.clara.net/rowil/ | <rowil@clara.net> ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...


    Message 11


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    Time: 03:45:03 PM PST US
    From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Berube conventional gear
    Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote: > <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> > >> But certainly increases the tendency to ground loop, which often >> dings the prop< > > That would be true for the monowheel, with its unhelpful outrigger > geometry (i.e.outrigger axes well behind the mainwheel axle). > > Duncan McF. True for any taildragger. G-BWON (bow legged Swiss gear) broke a leg AND dinged the prop Graham


    Message 12


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    Time: 03:53:06 PM PST US
    From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Wednesday DOTH
    Robert C Harrison wrote: > > Hi Richard .but intended for all!...... > > Actually further to my last reply I messaged the pilot of G-_ _ BR on > departure through Halfpenny Green ATC that his nose wheel was > shimmying violently on his take off run. If he managed to get landed > without disintegrating his nose wheel spat or loosing his wheel he > must attend to the shimmy adjustment and/or put in shimmy damper > friction grease on it before next flight in his own serious interests. > > Regards > > Bob Harrison G-PTAG. > Bob that was Peter Curley, he recently bought Colin Smallwood's masterpiece and is loving it. His landing at Tatenhill was a greaser he told me. I explained the shimmy damper to him so he has been warned. I'm glad he has made his first DOTH and started on the learning curve. Good pilot and a good engineer, he was a RR man. (so was Colin, hence the masterpiece) Graham


    Message 13


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    Time: 04:07:10 PM PST US
    From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Berube conventional gear
    Graham, Presumably the prop ding was a consequence of the leg breaking, not the groundloop, to get back to the original discussion. Or shall we start with poor piloting in the first place? Duncan. Duncan. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:48 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Berube conventional gear > > <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> > > Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote: >> <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> >> >>> But certainly increases the tendency to ground loop, which often dings >>> the prop< >> >> That would be true for the monowheel, with its unhelpful outrigger >> geometry (i.e.outrigger axes well behind the mainwheel axle). >> >> Duncan McF. > True for any taildragger. G-BWON (bow legged Swiss gear) broke a leg AND > dinged the prop > Graham > > >


    Message 14


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    Time: 05:26:32 PM PST US
    From: jimpuglise@comcast.net
    Subject: Re: Antenna routing without effecting pitch trim i
    Rudder Post, Tail Post, same thing.=C2- As I remember (and it may be inco rrect) I puchased the antenna kit separately from Europa.=C2- It is reall y much more simple than you would think.=C2- You can get the 3M copper ta pe very cheaply, RG-58U is cheap, and that is all you need.=C2- I will us e the toroids only because they are recommended but I have built probably 5 0 VHF antennas over the years and have never used=C2-a toroid .=C2- You can buy them very economically from someone like RST or Palomar electronic s.=C2- Palomar is at 760-747-3343 and toroids are one of their specialtie s.=C2- Call them and explain what you are doing and they will send what y ou need.=C2- You don't want to install the antennas (excep transponder) b efore you have the top on.=C2- Vertical dipoles are the simplest, cheapes t, and most efficient way to go.=C2- You can't install the one in the rud der post until you have the top on and the post trial fitted.=C2- In my c ase, on Bob Berube's recommendation, I installed the transponder antenna (a vertical dipole) well aft on a piece of balsa wood floxed to the lower hal f of the canoe prior to putting the top on.=C2- You should install all of the coax for the antenna and wire for the trim motor before the top goes o n.=C2- We used some little 1 inch square plastic fasterner, my wife think s we got them at Radio Shack.=C2- They have self-adhesive on the bottom, which you remove, and then scuff sand and flox them to th fuselage floor. =C2- You can pass a tie wrap through them, which you use to secure the ca ble or wiring.=C2- BY ALL MEANS have the wires and coax in before you put the top on, but the antennas, with the exception of the transponder, shoul d wait until the top is on.=C2- You want to have as much as you can done, because everything can influence SWR.=C2- The advice you got on cutting them is dead on.=C2- You want them a little long.=C2- Go ahead and epox y them in; even the epoxy can have some effect, but leave at least 6 inches free on each end.=C2- THEN it is time to tune them by snipping off a lit tle at time .=C2- Your best bet is to talk to someone who is an experienced amateur.=C2- Th e aircraft band is relatively close to the 2 meter amateur band, so anyone who is on top of 2 meter amateur antennas should be able to help you.=C2- Jim=C2-Puglise =C2-- A-283 ----- Original Message ----- From: "rparigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:10:27 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected Subject: Re: Europa-List: Antenna routing without effecting pitch trim i > Hi Jim Thx. for the reply. "You should not use the rudder post antenna unless you have done so. The Eu ropa kit ships with 4 toroids and they may also help. =C2-The taill post antenna is really a nice solution." Sorry, don't understand the difference between a rudder post antenna and a tail post antenna?? My kit A-265 picked up Lakeland 04-2003 did not come with toroids. Are you saying newer kits are shipped with toroids for copper foil dipole a ntennas? You think they would be worth while installing with a Bob Archer a ntenna "real big E shape". Before I bond top on, I want to test power and SWR of radios and try and tw eak location and fix any problems that may pop up like pitch indicator sign al wire catching noise from radio transmission or?? Ron P. Visit - =C2-www.EuropaOwners.org =========== =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2--Matt Dralle, List Admin. =========== =========== MS - ===========




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