---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/02/09: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:59 AM - Re: Wing Walk Tape (rick) 2. 06:50 AM - Re: Wing Walk Tape (Robert C Harrison) 3. 07:09 AM - Re: Wing Walk Tape (ALAN YERLY) 4. 08:15 AM - Re: Wing Walk Tape (Fred Klein) 5. 09:04 AM - Re: Wing Walk Tape (ALAN YERLY) 6. 10:58 AM - Re: Wing Walk Tape (Graham Singleton) 7. 12:27 PM - Re: Mono Wheel Tyre (jpg12305) 8. 12:43 PM - Re: Wing Walk Tape (ALAN YERLY) 9. 01:07 PM - Re: Wing Walk Tape (John & Paddy Wigney) 10. 01:30 PM - Re: Re: Wing Walk Tape (JEFF ROBERTS) 11. 01:56 PM - Re: Re: Wing Walk Tape (JR Gowing) 12. 02:40 PM - Re: Wing Walk Tape (Graham Singleton) 13. 03:08 PM - Fuel line position exiting the cockpit module (Greg Fuchs) 14. 04:26 PM - Re: Fuel line position exiting the cockpit module (ALAN YERLY) 15. 04:27 PM - Re: Tank filler flange (K.Pilcher) 16. 05:02 PM - Paul Prout (Graham Singleton) 17. 11:49 PM - Re: Fuel line position exiting the cockpit module (Greg Fuchs) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:59:33 AM PST US From: "rick" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape Hi Bud I've always used the bottom on leg swing method but recently (500 hours) I've noticed two 6" cracks in the paint on the top spar line about 8" out from the wing fillet. My inspector is slightly worried and says he will talk to Andy about it. Have you seen much of it? Cheers Rick G-RIKS Tri 500 hours. _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ALAN YERLY Sent: 01 February 2009 20:23 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape Wing Walk area tapes are notorious about looking dirty with any other color but black. A piece of carpet with a rubber non stick mat sewn on the bottom works well. The non skid mat is a soft dimpled thin rubber material used by woodworkers for routing pads or sold in stores for use in kitchen sinks. Jerry Hope has a carpet piece of carpet about 10 inches wide by 20 inches long for the wing and an 8x12 for a seat protector when stepping in. Just brush it off when seated and throw in the back. As for those nasty cracks in the filler due to flexing near the spar and wing fillet, only the extra layers of glass support can cure that. In the future, wings will have the rib numbers increased in this area and skin stiffed to provide for added stiffness for the not so svelte guys like me. Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations. ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:paul.the.aviator@gmail.com"Paul McAllister Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 1:54 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape "mailto:paul.the.aviator@gmail.com"paul.the.aviator@gmail.com> Hi Karel, I used to have the original white wing walk tape that came from Europa, but it got "dirty" looking after a while and no amount of scrubbing would clean it. Does the clear stuff from ACS hold up any better ? > Hi Troy, > I used the two 16" x 30" clear of ACS. Your feet are not always in flight > direction when embarking. My shoes are about 12"; when they are transverse > on the direction 16" of wing walk is not to large. > Best regards, > Karel Vranken # 447 nbsp; Features Chat, HYPERLINK "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronnbsp; via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p; generous bsp; title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c==== =========== "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?Europa-List "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribution Checked by AVG. 00:00 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:31 AM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape Hi! Rick. My classic wing was built with a multi bid layer behind the wing spas and slightly forward of the spa to take the weight of feet , I guess the quick build skinned wings will have less numbers of bid lays for "bony bums"? However the down side is that on a trike with the onset of the persons age it does get to be a challenge to not tread on the flap and sometimes with a full compliment of fuel the a/c tends to tip back. Regards Bob H G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rick Sent: 02 February 2009 11:57 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape Hi Bud I've always used the bottom on leg swing method but recently (500 hours) I've noticed two 6" cracks in the paint on the top spar line about 8" out from the wing fillet. My inspector is slightly worried and says he will talk to Andy about it. Have you seen much of it? Cheers Rick G-RIKS Tri 500 hours. _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ALAN YERLY Sent: 01 February 2009 20:23 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape Wing Walk area tapes are notorious about looking dirty with any other color but black. A piece of carpet with a rubber non stick mat sewn on the bottom works well. The non skid mat is a soft dimpled thin rubber material used by woodworkers for routing pads or sold in stores for use in kitchen sinks. Jerry Hope has a carpet piece of carpet about 10 inches wide by 20 inches long for the wing and an 8x12 for a seat protector when stepping in. Just brush it off when seated and throw in the back. As for those nasty cracks in the filler due to flexing near the spar and wing fillet, only the extra layers of glass support can cure that. In the future, wings will have the rib numbers increased in this area and skin stiffed to provide for added stiffness for the not so svelte guys like me. Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations. ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul McAllister Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 1:54 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape Hi Karel, I used to have the original white wing walk tape that came from Europa, but it got "dirty" looking after a while and no amount of scrubbing would clean it. Does the clear stuff from ACS hold up any better ? > Hi Troy, > I used the two 16" x 30" clear of ACS. Your feet are not always in flight > direction when embarking. My shoes are about 12"; when they are transverse > on the direction 16" of wing walk is not to large. > Best regards, > Karel Vranken # 447 nbsp; Features Chat, http://www.matronnbsp; via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p; generous bsp; title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =============== href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronh ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c AVG. 00:00 Checked by AVG. 00:00 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:09 AM PST US From: "ALAN YERLY" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape Yes, for those of you who enter from the leading edge, the forward D tube of the wing is foam and glass sandwich only supported by the root rib and the next rib is nearly 16 inches further outboard. I'm afraid the flexing of this area means any filler in that area will crack. The depth of the filler is quite thick here due to the transition from the wing fillet. That is why I have started to add glass layers over the filler from the fillet outboard to try to stiffen this area. The inner structural glass will hold up to our butts sitting here, but the filler won't. I'm afraid the area needs a couple more ribs to prevent this as was done on the trailing edge walk area. Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: rick To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 6:57 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape Hi Bud I've always used the bottom on leg swing method but recently (500 hours) I've noticed two 6" cracks in the paint on the top spar line about 8" out from the wing fillet. My inspector is slightly worried and says he will talk to Andy about it. Have you seen much of it? Cheers Rick G-RIKS Tri 500 hours. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ALAN YERLY Sent: 01 February 2009 20:23 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape Wing Walk area tapes are notorious about looking dirty with any other color but black. A piece of carpet with a rubber non stick mat sewn on the bottom works well. The non skid mat is a soft dimpled thin rubber material used by woodworkers for routing pads or sold in stores for use in kitchen sinks. Jerry Hope has a carpet piece of carpet about 10 inches wide by 20 inches long for the wing and an 8x12 for a seat protector when stepping in. Just brush it off when seated and throw in the back. As for those nasty cracks in the filler due to flexing near the spar and wing fillet, only the extra layers of glass support can cure that. In the future, wings will have the rib numbers increased in this area and skin stiffed to provide for added stiffness for the not so svelte guys like me. Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations. ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul McAllister To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 1:54 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape > Hi Karel, I used to have the original white wing walk tape that came from Europa, but it got "dirty" looking after a while and no amount of scrubbing would clean it. Does the clear stuff from ACS hold up any better ? > Hi Troy, > I used the two 16" x 30" clear of ACS. Your feet are not always in flight > direction when embarking. My shoes are about 12"; when they are transverse > on the direction 16" of wing walk is not to large. > Best regards, > Karel Vranken # 447 nbsp; Features Chat, http://www.matronnbsp; via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p; generous bsp; title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ================ href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c AVG. 00:00 Checked by AVG. 00:00 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:15 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape On Feb 2, 2009, at 7:02 AM, ALAN YERLY wrote: > the forward D tube of the wing is foam and glass sandwich only > supported by the root rib and the next rib is nearly 16 inches > further outboard. I'm afraid the flexing of this area means any > filler in that area will crack. The depth of the filler is quite > thick here due to the transition from the wing fillet. That is why > I have started to add glass layers over the filler from the fillet > outboard to try to stiffen this area. Bud, After following this thread, I'm tempted to suggest another possible solution. I have some 1/8 inch Lastafoam; after sanding off the gelcoat, I could bond a piece say 6 inches wide and say 10 inches (fore and aft) onto the top of the D tube abutting the edge of the wing root fairing...then sanding it down (inboard) level with the thickness of the fairing and carefully feathering it down to nothing (outboard)...this would avoid excessive depth of filler...then cover what's left of the foam w/ some FG, say 2 layers of BID lapping over the wing root fairing. Caution, of course, should be observed for any alteration of the airfoil, but conceptually, one would strive to maintain what results from the use of filler in this area...merely substituting foam for filler. Your reaction? Fred PS: I appreciated your post a while back which cautioned against any attempts to close the trim tab control arm slots in the fuselage, saving me some time and potential grief...thanks! -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:04:22 AM PST US From: "ALAN YERLY" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape Fred, A foam core would work but filler would be more solid and resist those high heels. In my answer to Ron Parigoris on my experiment: My use has been with standard 7725 Bid, two layers on the bias. That is the strands run at 45 degrees to the wing root rib. To stiffen the area, once the fillet is on and filled, then add layers on top, peel ply, then fill again. You can use flox as the filler but expand cell will do. Figure it this way. The filler is now another core material. That makes a very stiff core and will aid in making the elasticity lower. If you add carbon fiber rather than E glass, it will make it even more stiffer as the carbon will make the layer nearly rigid.. I do not know without building a panel if the carbon is more effective. Flox and carbon would prevent a Stilleto heel from going through the skin, but at what cost in weight. A layer of carbon then filler then more carbon would be super hard, very ridged and cost about another $200 in material... This only need be done for the guy who puts weight ahead of the spar. Behind the spar is OK for the tail dragger crowd. Just don't put your foot beyond the spar. Bud. ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Klein To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 11:13 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape On Feb 2, 2009, at 7:02 AM, ALAN YERLY wrote: the forward D tube of the wing is foam and glass sandwich only supported by the root rib and the next rib is nearly 16 inches further outboard. I'm afraid the flexing of this area means any filler in that area will crack. The depth of the filler is quite thick here due to the transition from the wing fillet. That is why I have started to add glass layers over the filler from the fillet outboard to try to stiffen this area. Bud, After following this thread, I'm tempted to suggest another possible solution. I have some 1/8 inch Lastafoam; after sanding off the gelcoat, I could bond a piece say 6 inches wide and say 10 inches (fore and aft) onto the top of the D tube abutting the edge of the wing root fairing...then sanding it down (inboard) level with the thickness of the fairing and carefully feathering it down to nothing (outboard)...this would avoid excessive depth of filler...then cover what's left of the foam w/ some FG, say 2 layers of BID lapping over the wing root fairing. Caution, of course, should be observed for any alteration of the airfoil, but conceptually, one would strive to maintain what results from the use of filler in this area...merely substituting foam for filler. Your reaction? Fred PS: I appreciated your post a while back which cautioned against any attempts to close the trim tab control arm slots in the fuselage, saving me some time and potential grief...thanks! -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:58:37 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape ALAN YERLY wrote: > If you add carbon fiber rather than E glass, it will make it even > more stiffer as the carbon will make the layer nearly rigid.. > > I do not know without building a panel if the carbon is more effective. > > Bud. Bud trouble is the carbon will take all of the load because of it's very high modulus, that will tend to create a sharp discontinuity in strength at the edge of the carbon. Graham ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:27:15 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mono Wheel Tyre From: "jpg12305" I used to have a similar issue with the 8.00x6. I switched to 7.00x6 and it works fine. I do not notice significant change in ground operations. Jean-Paul Europa 332 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228202#228202 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:40 PM PST US From: "ALAN YERLY" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape Exactly right Graham, but the force I am trying to fix is not a flight load but just a wing surface plate skin stiffness for my wide butt. If I were to use carbon fiber, the joint needs to be tapered in to where the next rib is. That rib will relieve some of the discontinuity of the carbon/glass interface. The loaded outer skin compression over the rib should take the discontinuity. I too believe the best fix is to use E or S glass and epoxy as a band-aid fix. The real fix is to add ribs and change the glass layup sequence to add more surface stiffness for those Stilleto heels and boney butts. For those following this, anytime that you add carbon fiber to a glass surface, all the load is transferred to the strongest element i.e. the glass fiber, and the epoxy is for a better word, a bonding agent. If you put a layer of carbon on glass, the carbon then will take all the load until the point where the epoxy bonds surrounding the carbon fail, then the glass would pick up the load (probably to failure). In the case we are discussing above, this may result in a complete de-lamination of that stiff carbon sheet which is only held on by the filler/foam or whatever between it and the glass skin or worse yet a buckling of the skin and failure. Glass epoxy structures are interesting animals in that in the event of an extra layer of carbon is put over the glass, the difference in stiffness (modulous of elasticity) will cause a stress riser at the edge of the carbon layer. This can cause numerous problems. The outer skin of the Europa XS is for shape and stiffness. It is not a heavy weave like the Classic wing. Under loading, the upper skin is under compression and as the glass takes up the load, a sudden junction of very stiff carbon can cause the skin to wrinkle or even debond under compression. The area over the rib is transferring some of it's shear load to the rib and is somewhat less stressed, so in my opinion, this would be an acceptable place to make the transition. (Look at the wing in loading some time and you can see every rib at 3 gs as the glass upper surface in compression slightly bends under the compression load.) In my education on aircraft structures, it was always drummed into our heads that the common failure mode in aircraft is a compression failure due to buckling. Glass structures are designed to take the compression and sheer loads together through the orientation of the fibers. Most of the strength of a wing is that shell. The tension loads that are easily carried by the lower wing skin, through the strands of glass oriented at anywhere from 0-30 degrees, allow some of the linear stress to be taken by the shear load of the D tube and transferred by contact and ribs to our extremely overbuilt (thankfully) main spar and of course the upper skin. As I said and Graham has eluded to: Without testing on the panel, we will never know for sure. The theoretical solutions for analyzing glass/epoxy structures is beyond my shops time and money. That is why my bandaid is bid cloth over the skin tapered to the first rib from the root. The thicker, now double sandwich will make that hollow leading edge a little stiffer and the glass over the top of the filler may preclude those cracks in the filler made by the depression of that skin on the forward D section. Just my opinion. Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Graham Singleton To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 1:55 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape > ALAN YERLY wrote: > If you add carbon fiber rather than E glass, it will make it even > more stiffer as the carbon will make the layer nearly rigid.. > > I do not know without building a panel if the carbon is more effective. > > Bud. Bud trouble is the carbon will take all of the load because of it's very high modulus, that will tend to create a sharp discontinuity in strength at the edge of the carbon. Graham http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:07:52 PM PST US From: John & Paddy Wigney Subject: Europa-List: Re: Wing Walk Tape Hi Troy, You might want to consider an inexpensive material which I used. I bought a roll of plain white self-adhesive kitchen drawer liner (hardware store supply). As I remember, I applied it about 10 inches wide ahead of the flap on each side. It is inexpensive and surprisingly durable. Mine have been on since Day 1 and are still in good condition after 7 years. Noting that frost will destroy lift on a wing, I have never been keen on the idea of a rough wing walk surface and this is why I chose the smooth surface. I have never slipped on it in the wet and also, for those people wanting that extra knot??, it is definitely low drag. Cheers, John ORIGINAL MESSAGE From: "Troy Maynor" Subject: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape Hey Fellow Europa Folks, Hope all are flying or building well. Question: for you that have put wing walk on, how wide a path is best up the wing? ACS sell some that is clear and is 16" x 30" and another variety that comes in 6" or 12" wide, sold by the lineal foot. I was thinking of buying one of the 16" x 30" and splitting it down the middle to do both wings. I think the clear or translucent would be preferable to white or black. White would most likely not be the matching shade to the white on the plane and black would cook the wing. Thoughts? Troy Maynor ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:50 PM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Wing Walk Tape HI Troy, For what it's worth I've never used anything other than making sure nobody gets on the wing feet first or with jeans of the old fashion back pocket rivets. Just sit on and swing legs in has worked and my wings still look perfect. If you put wing walk on you may be asking for the wing walk from some unknowing sole. Just a thought... Best Regards, Jeff R. A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 176 hours and climbing slowly. On Feb 2, 2009, at 3:05 PM, John & Paddy Wigney wrote: > > > Hi Troy, > > You might want to consider an inexpensive material which I used. I > bought a roll of plain white self-adhesive kitchen drawer liner > (hardware store supply). As I remember, I applied it about 10 inches > wide ahead of the flap on each side. It is inexpensive and > surprisingly durable. Mine have been on since Day 1 and are still in > good condition after 7 years. > > Noting that frost will destroy lift on a wing, I have never been keen > on the idea of a rough wing walk surface and this is why I chose the > smooth surface. I have never slipped on it in the wet and also, for > those people wanting that extra knot??, it is definitely low drag. > > Cheers, John > > ORIGINAL MESSAGE > From: "Troy Maynor" > Subject: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape > Hey Fellow Europa Folks, > Hope all are flying or building well. Question: for you that have put > wing walk on, how wide a path is best up the wing? ACS sell some that > is > clear and is 16" x 30" and another variety that comes in 6" or 12" > wide, > sold by the lineal foot. I was thinking of buying one of the 16" x 30" > and splitting it down the middle to do both wings. I think the clear or > translucent would be preferable to white or black. White would most > likely not be the matching shade to the white on the plane and black > would cook the wing. Thoughts? > Troy Maynor > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:02 PM PST US From: "JR Gowing" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Wing Walk Tape Good one Jeff! JR do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "JEFF ROBERTS" Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 8:27 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Wing Walk Tape > > HI Troy, > For what it's worth I've never used anything other than making sure > nobody gets on the wing feet first or with jeans of the old fashion > back pocket rivets. Just sit on and swing legs in has worked and my > wings still look perfect. If you put wing walk on you may be asking for > the wing walk from some unknowing sole. > Just a thought... > > Best Regards, > > > Jeff R. > A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 176 hours and climbing slowly. > > On Feb 2, 2009, at 3:05 PM, John & Paddy Wigney wrote: > >> >> >> Hi Troy, >> >> You might want to consider an inexpensive material which I used. I >> bought a roll of plain white self-adhesive kitchen drawer liner >> (hardware store supply). As I remember, I applied it about 10 inches >> wide ahead of the flap on each side. It is inexpensive and >> surprisingly durable. Mine have been on since Day 1 and are still in >> good condition after 7 years. >> >> Noting that frost will destroy lift on a wing, I have never been keen >> on the idea of a rough wing walk surface and this is why I chose the >> smooth surface. I have never slipped on it in the wet and also, for >> those people wanting that extra knot??, it is definitely low drag. >> >> Cheers, John >> >> ORIGINAL MESSAGE >> From: "Troy Maynor" >> Subject: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape >> Hey Fellow Europa Folks, >> Hope all are flying or building well. Question: for you that have put >> wing walk on, how wide a path is best up the wing? ACS sell some that >> is >> clear and is 16" x 30" and another variety that comes in 6" or 12" >> wide, >> sold by the lineal foot. I was thinking of buying one of the 16" x 30" >> and splitting it down the middle to do both wings. I think the clear or >> translucent would be preferable to white or black. White would most >> likely not be the matching shade to the white on the plane and black >> would cook the wing. Thoughts? >> Troy Maynor >> >> >> >> >> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 18:02:00 -- We are a community of 5.9 million users fighting spam. The Professional version does not have this message ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:16 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing Walk Tape ALAN YERLY wrote: > I too believe the best fix is to use E or S glass and epoxy as a > band-aid fix. The real fix is to add ribs and change the glass layup > sequence to add more surface stiffness for those Stilleto heels and > boney butts. > > > As I said and Graham has eluded to: Without testing on the panel, we > will never know for sure. The theoretical solutions for analyzing > glass/epoxy structures is beyond my shops time and money. That is why > my bandaid is bid cloth over the skin tapered to the first rib from > the root. The thicker, now double sandwich will make that hollow > leading edge a little stiffer and the glass over the top of the > filler may preclude those cracks in the filler made by the depression > of that skin on the forward D section. > > Just my opinion. > > Bud Bud you described the issue much better than I could, your opinion is valued Graham ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:28 PM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: Europa-List: Fuel line position exiting the cockpit module To the Gurus that came earlier: It seems that the fuel lines exiting the back of the module might come into contact (or get close) with the flap control tube. Without going through the hassle of dimensioning the flap system to find out, what do you think is the best way to handle this? I could cut the plastic guide-tube at exit, and bend the aluminum fuel tubing down and to port, or bend both. Will this work? Any other ideas? BTW, I have a Europa Tri-gear with electric flap positioning. Thanks for any direction to follow or consider, Greg Fuchs, A050 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:52 PM PST US From: "ALAN YERLY" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel line position exiting the cockpit module Wished you would have asked earlier. Just wire tie the fuel lines neatly to the floor. The gear and flap is normally installed and I fit the baggage bay in before I run the lines. I jig the fuselage well and don't put on the top until all the work in the rear is done. I hate crawling back in the back. Better to jig the fuselage properly, ensure it is square. Then put in the flight control rods, tail tube, pitch bulkhead, gear, flaps, rudder cables, autopilots, wiring, antennas, fuel system, batteries and other stuff in the back, then fit the top. Makes all those lines and fittings etc. much easier to de-conflict. I sheath my rudder cables when I can with 1/4 or 3/16 poly tube (like on the brakes) to guide them through the saddle area to make sure the fuel lines, wires, etc. don't interfere. Keep it light and simple, PVC can be heavy if you use it a lot. Those who put the top on before all the junk is in, have bruises and another 200 hours of work. Just a thought. Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Fuchs To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 6:04 PM Subject: Europa-List: Fuel line position exiting the cockpit module To the Gurus that came earlier: It seems that the fuel lines exiting the back of the module might come into contact (or get close) with the flap control tube. Without going through the hassle of dimensioning the flap system to find out, what do you think is the best way to handle this? I could cut the plastic guide-tube at exit, and bend the aluminum fuel tubing down and to port, or bend both. Will this work? Any other ideas? BTW, I have a Europa Tri-gear with electric flap positioning. Thanks for any direction to follow or consider, Greg Fuchs, A050 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:27:49 PM PST US From: "K.Pilcher" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tank filler flange Hi Dave If you get one do not over bond it or it will deform the the outer skin, ( as i did to G-OKEV) Speak to Andy Draper before you you fit it. Regards Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: David Steade To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 10:28 AM Subject: Europa-List: Tank filler flange Hi I'm building a Tri-gear XS from a kit dating back to 2001. I have the filler cap but seem to be short of the filler flange that bonds into the fuselage. Does anyone in the UK have one for sale? Regards David Steade ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:02:12 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: Paul Prout I have some sad news to pass on to the Group, or should I say Europa family. Many of you will have known Paul Prout, Kim's father, who was very much a guiding light when Kim started to build first a Long EZ, then his outstanding Europa Classic. Paul passed away peacefully in his sleep last night, aged 92 I first met Paul during the early Europa days when he and Kim visited Yorkshire to buy an early Classic kit. We were all impressed with his understanding of the dynamics and engineering of small aircraft. Paul worked in aviation most of his life, eventually at Lockheed Skunk Works. He was always generous with his friendship. I was lucky enough to meet him again in June last year and spent a couple of hours in his company with Kim. He was certainly quite frail but very happy to chat with me and reminisce about EZs and Europas, plus a few stories of his Lockheed days. He loved sharing his knowledge and experience with the Europa family. I will always remember his smile. Kim has asked me to pass on his thanks to everyone who knew and befriended Paul. Graham ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:54 PM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel line position exiting the cockpit module Hi Bud, Thanks for the response. I used aluminum tubing for the long runs, and high quality, high pressure (Gates) rubber for the tank outputs to tank switch valve, and the one short run from the tank switch valve to the 2 pumps. That is what the thin-walled pvc tubing was for, so that the hose can be easily rethreaded in 5 years (or whenever), and keep it away from the tight-clearance (roll and pitch) controls. I have been considering putting the fuel supply hose on the floor instead, and using the pvc 'conduit' for electrical purposes, (especially since it is higher than the fuel lines). For the aluminum tubing anchor points, I cut short pieces of the 3/8" aluminum tubing, and flared them, to create a base for the araldite/flox that would hold it to the glass, and drilled holes in the other end, to be used for a quality tie-wrap(which uses metal in the locking mechanism, and a short piece of the Gates 3/8" hose used as a rubber standoff. It is a relatively lightweight solution (compared to some), and seems to work well. Of course, since I have gone to the trouble to fabricate stand-offs for the fuel line, I think I will leave the aluminum runs where they are. You are right, it is too late :-). Thanks for the detailed notes on the order of procedure. I had planned to install almost everything before the top went on, too. It does seem like crawling around the back would be a hateful job. The pitch bulkhead is installed, already. If there is any twist in the tail (I have made measurements, but will be re-verifying again), I am hoping that getting everything true, it will hold that way, after temporarily clecoing the top on. Once done, I should be able to de-cleco, and do the rest of the work. Upon re-clecoing, it should be pulled back into proper position (I hope). My rudder cable will require about another 15 to 20 degrees of change, and I might use UHDMW (Ultra High Density Molecular Weight?) material, with a radius of 2.5" minimum, for the cable to rub on (I have heard it is very slick), or another pulley. This would keep the rudder cable lower in the module, and free up the space higher up, but I am going to leave it for later, to find the optimum position based on where the engine cage and any other possible items will affect the routing. If all this does not work, my contingency plan is to use similar cable-size sheathed brake cable of the type used for motorcycles. It can be custom made, and no worries about anything being rubbed on this way, and the weight is not much more, in my estimation, especially if it is used just to get through the controls and the fuel tank. But that probably will not happen. The first solutions will most likely work just fine. Questions: When you talk about "jigging" the fuselage, what are you thinking about? Clecoing on the top fuselage, and getting everything lined up could be considered a type of jig, or are you thinking of a tail-twister (torquer) as a jig, to correct for any potential twist in the tail? I am using about 6 old shelf planks, with cutouts that simulate the shape of the bottom of the fuselage, to support it along the bottom, with 3 castoring wheels, to roll it around with ease. Maybe this is the type of jig you speak of??? By the way, if anyone (or you too, Bud) could let me know if the aluminum line and tube look like they might hit the flap tube (my question is still outstanding), let me know. I am just trying to get a 'feel' for their exit out the back of the module, and I think I can modify the odds of them being a problem, by bending or repositioning them now(while I easily can), before the module gets stuck down. I am feeling too lazy to get out all of the flap parts, position them, and finding out for myself. It is also made a bit more difficult, since the hinge line is below the lower fuselage wall. It is a little hard to judge with the 2D picture, and if that is the case, then I understand. I will find a way to forge ahead. Regards, and thanks to all, Greg _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ALAN YERLY Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel line position exiting the cockpit module Wished you would have asked earlier. Just wire tie the fuel lines neatly to the floor. The gear and flap is normally installed and I fit the baggage bay in before I run the lines. I jig the fuselage well and don't put on the top until all the work in the rear is done. I hate crawling back in the back. Better to jig the fuselage properly, ensure it is square. Then put in the flight control rods, tail tube, pitch bulkhead, gear, flaps, rudder cables, autopilots, wiring, antennas, fuel system, batteries and other stuff in the back, then fit the top. Makes all those lines and fittings etc. much easier to de-conflict. I sheath my rudder cables when I can with 1/4 or 3/16 poly tube (like on the brakes) to guide them through the saddle area to make sure the fuel lines, wires, etc. don't interfere. Keep it light and simple, PVC can be heavy if you use it a lot. Those who put the top on before all the junk is in, have bruises and another 200 hours of work. Just a thought. Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Fuchs Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 6:04 PM Subject: Europa-List: Fuel line position exiting the cockpit module To the Gurus that came earlier: It seems that the fuel lines exiting the back of the module might come into contact (or get close) with the flap control tube. Without going through the hassle of dimensioning the flap system to find out, what do you think is the best way to handle this? I could cut the plastic guide-tube at exit, and bend the aluminum fuel tubing down and to port, or bend both. Will this work? Any other ideas? BTW, I have a Europa Tri-gear with electric flap positioning. Thanks for any direction to follow or consider, Greg Fuchs, A050 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.