---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/15/09: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:18 AM - Re: Exhaust Lagging (Robert C Harrison) 2. 02:09 AM - AW: Windscreen Demister (UVTReith) 3. 03:05 AM - Re: Windscreen Demister (G-IANI) 4. 03:16 AM - Rotax additional alternator (ploucandco) 5. 03:29 AM - Re: Exhaust Lagging (Gilles Thesee) 6. 03:49 AM - Windscreen Demister (Remi Guerner) 7. 04:50 AM - Re: Exhaust Lagging (Jim Brown) 8. 04:50 AM - Re: Exhaust Lagging (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 9. 04:54 AM - Re: Windscreen Demister (Trevpond@aol.com) 10. 05:24 AM - Re: Rotax additional alternator (h&jeuropa) 11. 05:48 AM - Re: Exhaust Lagging (Gilles Thesee) 12. 06:41 AM - Re: Windscreen Demister (david miller) 13. 10:00 AM - Re: TowBar (steve v) 14. 10:04 AM - Re: TowBar (steve v) 15. 11:36 AM - Re: Rotax additional alternator (Kevin Klinefelter) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:18:46 AM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Exhaust Lagging Hi! Troy IMHO best not do lagging it will cause differential expansion and so induce fatigue somewhere. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Troy Maynor Sent: 15 February 2009 03:58 Subject: Europa-List: Exhaust Lagging Hey All, Is it ok to lag, or wrap some kind of heat shield around part or all of the exhaust pipes? Mine is a classic FWF with stainless steel pipes. I wanted to keep a few areas cooler, like near the carbs, and a few other places. I have read that regular steel pipes can rust away undetected under insulation. What do I need to ask for specifically, maybe out of ACS or Summit racing. What have others done Troy Maynor ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:09:17 AM PST US From: "UVTReith" Subject: AW: Europa-List: Windscreen Demister Hi Graham, I have made some small slots (12) into the instrument panel module (about 3x15 mm) and inside of that panel a tunnel cover with a 2=94 tube end for the silicone rubber hose. My heat exchanger box (fresh air from cowling front inlet with 2=94 silicone rubber tube) is using hot water from the engine, running through light weight oil cooler. A flap inside the firewall, operating by a bowden cable, opens or closes the warm air. Please see attached picture. Best Regards, Bruno -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Graham Higgins Gesendet: Sonntag, 15. Februar 2009 00:02 An: Matronics List Betreff: Europa-List: Windscreen Demister Hi Europaphiles, Has anyone felt the need for a demisting system in their Europa? If so, under what conditions? Has anyone who has devised a cabin heating system included demisting as part of this? Have you ever used it in anger? I am considering my cabin heating system from the hot air at the back of the radiator, and wondering if I should include any demisting while on the job - don't want to have to come back later to do it. Regards Graham Higgins, #261 in Oz ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:05:27 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Windscreen Demister A small computer fan works well. See attached, The recessed aerial is for my Skymap IIIc and mount is for my PCAS unit. Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 200 hours Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:16:23 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Rotax additional alternator From: "ploucandco" Hi all, I am a little bit short of electrical power to run all the systems and landing lights in my 914 driven monowheel Europa XS. Does someone has experience with the ROTAX extra alternator and does it fit under the XS cowling? I also saw that some of you put the extra alternator at the end of the crankshaft. What's the added value in comparison to the ROTAX extra alternator except the CofG? Thanks, Jacques Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230307#230307 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:29:56 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: Exhaust Lagging Troy Maynor a crit : > I have read that regular steel pipes can rust away undetected under > insulation. Troy and all, Dyn'Aero tried lagging stainless steel exhaust pipes at the beginning of the MCR series, but they quit doing it due to some corrosion problems. What we have done is install light *radiation* shields a few millimeters from the pipes where needed to prevent carbs or fuel lines from 'seeing' the red hot exhausts or turbo. The free space between the exhaust and 'targets' allows free air passage. I did the same between the 4 into 1 and the cowling. The temperature reduction is drastic. Regards, -- Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:49:26 AM PST US From: "Remi Guerner" Subject: Europa-List: Windscreen Demister Graham, I have installed a demisting system using a glassfiber plenum under the top of panel module (see attached picture). Hot air comes from the heating system which takes air behind the radiator and exits through 6 holes (7 millimeters diameter) at the bottom of the windscreen. It works well in flight but is not very effective on the ground were it is the most needed. A fan would certainly help for ground use. Hope that helps. Regards Remi Guerner F-PGKL >>>>>> Has anyone felt the need for a demisting system in their Europa? If so, under what conditions? Has anyone who has devised a cabin heating system included demisting as part of this? Have you ever used it in anger? I am considering my cabin heating system from the hot air at the back of the radiator, and wondering if I should include any demisting while on the job - don't want to have to come back later to do it. Regards Graham Higgins, #261 in Oz <<<<<<<< ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:18 AM PST US From: Jim Brown Subject: Re: Europa-List: Exhaust Lagging Hi Troy - Early on, we installed an intercooler on our 914. The hose from the turbo, to the intercooler ran very close to the exhaust pipe.-I wrapped an area about 3 inches wide on the exhaust pipe with asbestos tape from Summit Raci ng. We also wraped an area on the other side of the engine where the exhaus t pipe was very close to an oil line. This is a stainless steel exhaust sys tem. In the past 800 hours we have replaced the asbestos wraps two or three times. There has been no change to the short sections of the exhaust pipe under the wraps. - I have seen regular steel header pipes that were wrapped fully in asbestos tape that were destroyed in about a year or so. - Jim Brown --- On Sun, 2/15/09, Troy Maynor wrote: From: Troy Maynor Subject: Europa-List: Exhaust Lagging Hey All, Is it ok to lag, or wrap some kind of heat shield around part or all of the exhaust pipes? Mine is a classic FWF with stainless steel pipes.-I wante d to keep a few areas cooler, like near the carbs, and a few other places. I have read that regular steel pipes can rust away undetected under insulat ion. What do I need to ask for specifically, maybe out of ACS or Summit rac ing. What have others done Troy- Maynor =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:17 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Exhaust Lagging From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Gilles "Dyn'Aero tried lagging stainless steel exhaust pipes at the beginning ofthe MCR series, but they quit doing it due to some corrosion problems." Was it the 914 exhaust they tried lagging? Approx. what year engine was the test performed on, if it was a 914? Rotax changed the design of the 914 exhaust over to one that is more robust and made of 309 Stainless Steel. Lockwood aviation says that most all 914s in Certified aircraft are lagged without problems and they are an advocate to lagging. Older style 914 exhausts, like those on a Xamango are lagged and need to be inspected every 25 or 50 hours, I forget. Not a super trivial job since exhaust needs to come off to do so. Supposedly if exhaust header breaks fully, the motor will quit according to my friend who owns Xamango who has read of several incidents with other Xamangos. According to Lockwood, new style 309SS are robust and tolerates lagging well. I plan to lag my 914 exhaust. Troy, I can't speak from experience but the Factory does not recommend lagging 912 or 912S exhausts. I never saw a Classic exhaust system up close, but if it's close to an XS exhaust I wouldn't lag it. I am not too thrilled with the 912s exhausts I have looked at. I would keep a sharp eye on 912S exhaust, and do it often. Lagging besides instigating differential expansion/ hence additional stresses will not allow easy inspection. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:54:25 AM PST US From: Trevpond@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Windscreen Demister Hi Graham, I put a large fan to the rear of my instrument panel so that air will be drawn into the bottom and cool the avionics and Efis. I cut 2 slots into the instrument nacelle and the air exhausts nicely to the screen and keeps it fog free. Two for one! kind regards Trev Pond G-LINN ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:42 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Rotax additional alternator From: "h&jeuropa" Jacques, I have the alternator mounted on the rear of the crank shaft. Advantages are CG location, uses space that is available and does not require change to cowl. The Rotax alternator requires cowl changes. These days with LED lighting and solid state radios, perhaps the Rotax standard (10-15 amp) alternator is sufficient. I live in Northern US and have a heated pitot. That is why I fitted the second, larger alternator. If you need more information on the crankshaft mount, I have a install package and can supply the required parts. There are a couple of Europas flying with this mod and a few other aircraft. Jim Butcher N241BW XS 914 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230314#230314 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:22 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: Exhaust Lagging rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us a crit : > Was it the 914 exhaust they tried lagging? Among others, yes. > > Approx. what year engine was the test performed on, if it was a 914? Beats me. I believe that was in the pre-2000 era. > > Rotax changed the design of the 914 exhaust over to one that is more > robust and made of 309 Stainless Steel. Lockwood aviation says that > most all 914s in Certified aircraft are lagged without problems and > they are an advocate to lagging. Older style 914 exhausts, like those > on a Xamango are lagged and need to be inspected every 25 or 50 hours, > I forget. Not a super trivial job since exhaust needs to come off to > do so. Supposedly if exhaust header breaks fully, the motor will quit > according to my friend who owns Xamango who has read of several > incidents with other Xamangos. > > According to Lockwood, new style 309SS are robust and tolerates > lagging well. > > I plan to lag my 914 exhaust. I don't know what Ximango exhausts look like. During our build I payed great attention to what is going on under the cowling, esp. concerning heat. In my opinion - but I know Europa-philes are wary of non-Europa opinions ;-) - lagging is not the best response to radiated heat from exhausts, just like ceramic coating, etc.. Within a few minutes, the lagging material is just about the same temp as the exhaust, and radiate about just as much as bare metal. As mentioned the best way to drastically cut radiated heat is to install light radiation shields, et allow free air passage. Of course, it is up to each builder. Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:00 AM PST US From: david miller Subject: Re: Europa-List: Windscreen Demister Graham, I've used a small computer fan, cost about $4 as a surplus item. I fitted an on/off switch, but to date it has always been on. I've had no misting problems with this in use, and it does get cold up here. Dave C-FBZI Do not archive On 14-Feb-09, at 9:46 PM, ALAN YERLY wrote: > Graham, > My website has a view of the method I use for my customers > heaters. Like most systems off the coolers, it varies the temp > with the engine, outside air and velocity. Normally very good at > 120 kias at 30 degrees F or above. > > As for demisting, most avionics put off enough heat that a small > fan blowing air from the passenger well and exiting through a hole > above the instruments (on top of the panel, in front of the pilot) > works well for our modest temps here in the SE US. Jerry Hope said > it best, "might as well cool the instruments and keep the > windscreen clear!" He used a small computer cooling fan of 12 > volts sucking air from the curved portion on the passenger side > behind his radios and it blows across his stack, and it exits out > the top quite well. > > Bud Yerly > Custom Flight Creations > Website: customflightcreations.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Graham Higgins > To: Matronics List > Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 6:01 PM > Subject: Europa-List: Windscreen Demister > > > > Hi Europaphiles, > Has anyone felt the need for a demisting system in their Europa? > If so, > under what conditions? > Has anyone who has devised a cabin heating system included > demisting as part > of this? > Have you ever used it in anger? > I am considering my cabin heating system from the hot air at the > back of the > radiator, and wondering if I should include any demisting while on > the job - > don't want to have to come back later to do it. > Regards Graham Higgins, #261 in Oz nbsp; > Features Chat, http://www.matronnbsp; via the Web title=http:// > forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// > forums.matronics.com > _p; generous bsp; title=http:// > www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/ > contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c================ > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:38 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: TowBar From: "steve v " Hello Peter, Apologies for the delay been away with the wife and kids for the weekend so unable to reply, It was made by Spencer Davies Engineering , www.sde.co.uk , Im sorry but I dont Have a price, I`ve only just informed them that other people are interested so please be patient, if you email me i can give you the full details, Regards, Steve #573 Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: TowBar From: "steve v " Hello Danni , Apologies for the delay been away with the wife and kids for the weekend so unable to reply, It was made by Spencer Davies Engineering , www.sde.co.uk , Im sorry but I dont Have a price, I`ve only just informed them that other people are interested so please be patient, i'll try and email you the full details, Regards, Steve #573 Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:52 AM PST US From: "Kevin Klinefelter" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax additional alternator Another option is to put an alternator on the vacume pump pad, rear of the gearbox. No cowling mod needed. With the 914 electric fuel pumps, I feel better having two sources of electric power generation. Without two sources, when the Ducati regulator craps out, you are dependent on the battery alone to keep the fuel flowing to the engine. I don't think I would be comfortable continuing the flight on battery only, so a second source of power generation is my choice. Plus there is lots of power for strobes and stuff. Speaking of the Ducati regulator I understand it is good to keep it cool. I mounted mine on the front of the passenger footwell inside the cold air intake plenum. Anyone else mount the regulator down there? Kevin, 19 hours and having fun... ----- Original Message ----- From: "ploucandco" Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:14 AM Subject: Europa-List: Rotax additional alternator > > Hi all, > > I am a little bit short of electrical power to run all the systems and > landing lights in my 914 driven monowheel Europa XS. > Does someone has experience with the ROTAX extra alternator and does it > fit under the XS cowling? > > I also saw that some of you put the extra alternator at the end of the > crankshaft. What's the added value in comparison to the ROTAX extra > alternator except the CofG? > > Thanks, Jacques > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230307#230307 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.