---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 02/25/09: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:19 AM - Re: wing root fairings (craig bastin) 2. 01:45 AM - Alcoholic Mogas (Remi Guerner) 3. 02:13 AM - Re: wing root fairings (Graham Singleton) 4. 02:22 AM - Re: Alcoholic Mogas (craig bastin) 5. 02:35 AM - Re: Alcoholic Mogas (Greg Fuchs) 6. 07:03 AM - Europa project wanted! (David Joyce) 7. 07:51 AM - Re: Europa project wanted! (Garry) 8. 08:13 AM - Re: wing root fairings (Fred Klein) 9. 09:22 AM - Re: wing root fairings (Fred Klein) 10. 09:26 AM - Re: wing root fairings (Robert C Harrison) 11. 10:22 AM - Re: Europa project wanted! (Paul Boulet) 12. 10:52 AM - Re: wing root fairings (Graham Singleton) 13. 12:09 PM - DOTH Wellesbourne Mountford Fri. 27th. (Paddy Clarke) 14. 02:05 PM - Europa project wanted! (David Joyce) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:19:53 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: wing root fairings great work fred, I get the impression you are looking at cutting the top fairing and fitting it to the flap, just a suggestion, but would it not be easier to just have the flap come up against the bottom of the top fairings and sit in a "step" in the bottom fairing. Obviously this would require a slot in the bottom fairing for the flap drive tube, but that could be filled with a small inset that attaches to the tube itself. As i said great work and this is in no way a critisism of what you have achieved so far, I simply offer a suggestion that MAY make life easier come fitting etc. I look forward to the flight test data from the trike you mentioned. craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of JR Gowing Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2009 12:46 PM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: wing root fairings Fred Thank you for the inspiring photos...... That is unbelievable work! JR (Bob) Gowing 327 in Oz Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Klein To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 12:53 PM Subject: Europa-List: wing root fairings Fred you mentioned in the antenna discussions, you have made some more progress on wing root fairings. I am sure must of the guys would be interested in those pics. craig Sure Craig: The "news" on my fairings follows: The design remains the same; they mate with the stock fairing at the spar, and would be able to be easily added to a completed aircraft. As these photos show, there is now a companion piece which deals with the underside and tucks under the trailing edge of the stock Europa fairing...at the trailing edge of the wing (underside) and the leading edge of the flap. Of course, the airflow in flight is just as interested in the underside of the wing as it is the upper surface...the more I looked at the stock situation, the more I realized that something had to be done. I am currently (very cautiously) trial fitting a set on my aircraft, attempting to assure that, as the fairing is cut into the portions which bond to the wing, the flap, and the aft fuselage, the smooth and continuous curvature is maintained. (Thank God for clecos, hot glue, and tongue depressors!). Note that the flap drive slot is now covered. I am also dealing with the issue of air flow over and around the aft portion of the fairing when the flaps are deployed. Just how to close the volume opened up when the flaps are deployed and configure the resulting surface is not yet resolved. I have shipped a full set (uncut) to a fellow flyer (tri-gear) who is going to use some magic adhesives and tape to attach them to his wing and fuselage. (He plans to do some zero flap takeoffs and landings.) He will fly some specific profiles with and without the fairings so we will have some idea how they affect performance and efficiency of flight...I'm hoping these tests will be performed prior to Sun N Fun. I've been holding back on offering them to builders until I have some idea of performance. Also, I've wanted to go thru the installation process so I could write up some recommendations on how to position and install them. At this point, it seems clear to me that the positioning of the fairing can only be accomplished w/ reasonable precision and symmetry when the top molding is in one piece; thus, I expect to make up the top and bottom moldings, trim them, mark them for cutting, and ship them so. It will be up to the builder to do the cutting, make up and fit the flanges, and do the finishing, etc. They come off the molds pretty smooth, they are within a gnat's a__ of being perfectly symmetrical, but they are not vacuum-bagged. Off the molds and trimmed, the upper and lower shells (together) weigh just under one pound port and starboard. I will be bringing a fairing to Sun N Fun. So...that's where things stand at the moment, Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- e Date: 02/24/09 13:35:00 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- We are a community of 6 million users fighting spamssional version does not have this message. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:45:14 AM PST US From: "Remi Guerner" Subject: Europa-List: Alcoholic Mogas Hi all, During the last few days, I tested several samples of Mogas (all purchased in the Paris area) to determine if they were containing alcohol. The results are as follows: 95 Unleaded from a supermarket: about 2,5 % alcool 95 Unleaded from a well known brand: about 2,5 % alcool 98 Unleaded from a well known brand: no alcool For those not familiar with french designation of Mogas, 95 Unleaded is our basic mogas while 98 is Super. Rotax says alcool in the fuel should be avoided but tolerates up to 5% (SI 912-016 R1) so we can assume there is probably no risk with the engine up to that ratio. I do not think there is a risk either with our fuel lines as most of us are using automotive hoses designed for mogas. Same for fuel pumps. But what about the fuel tank which is already subject to bulging and cracking even without alcool? What about fuel pressure sensors? Fuel flow sensors? As more and more alcohol will be introduced in mogas in the near future, it would be beneficial to all of us to know better about its side effect on our fuel system. Looking fwd receiving documented answers from experienced people. Regards Remi Guerner F-PGKL ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:48 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: wing root fairings Fred they look superb! I can't wait to hear what the performance gain is Graham Fred Klein wrote: > Sure Craig: > > The "news" on my fairings follows: > > The design remains the same; they mate with the stock fairing at the > spar, and would be able to be easily added to a completed aircraft. > > I am currently (very cautiously) trial fitting a set on my aircraft, > attempting to assure that, as the fairing is cut into the portions > which bond to the wing, the flap, and the aft fuselage, the smooth and > continuous curvature is maintained. (Thank God for clecos, hot glue, > and tongue depressors!). Note that the flap drive slot is now covered. > I am also dealing with the issue of air flow over and around the aft > portion of the fairing when the flaps are deployed. Just how to close > the volume opened up when the flaps are deployed and configure the > resulting surface is not yet resolved. > So...that's where things stand at the moment, > > Fred ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:22:17 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Alcoholic Mogas In case you are not aware the ethanol will only stay in solution with the petrol up to about 1% water saturation which in theory means your 70 litre fuel tank could contain 1.7 litres of straight alcohol in the bottom of the tank if it falls out of solution due to humidity etc. I doubt 1.7 litres would be enough to do any damage but its worth thinking about. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Remi Guerner Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2009 7:43 PM To: Europa-List Digest Server Subject: Europa-List: Alcoholic Mogas Hi all, During the last few days, I tested several samples of Mogas (all purchased in the Paris area) to determine if they were containing alcohol. The results are as follows: 95 Unleaded from a supermarket: about 2,5 % alcool 95 Unleaded from a well known brand: about 2,5 % alcool 98 Unleaded from a well known brand: no alcool For those not familiar with french designation of Mogas, 95 Unleaded is our basic mogas while 98 is Super. Rotax says alcool in the fuel should be avoided but tolerates up to 5% (SI 912-016 R1) so we can assume there is probably no risk with the engine up to that ratio. I do not think there is a risk either with our fuel lines as most of us are using automotive hoses designed for mogas. Same for fuel pumps. But what about the fuel tank which is already subject to bulging and cracking even without alcool? What about fuel pressure sensors? Fuel flow sensors? As more and more alcohol will be introduced in mogas in the near future, it would be beneficial to all of us to know better about its side effect on our fuel system. Looking fwd receiving documented answers from experienced people. Regards Remi Guerner F-PGKL ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:35:42 AM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: Alcoholic Mogas Remi, It would be nice to find a station that consistently pumps gas without alcohol, amidst a sea of others that don't. Here in the States, our regular fuel is about 87 octane. You must have good fuel. Rumor has it that the Rotax will eventually be ok'd for ethanolized fuel up to 10% Rumor also has it that the Rotax 912 TBO will be bumped up to 2000 hrs. I heard this on the Ultra-Flight Radio program with Roy Beisswenger. The speaker (not directly related to Rotax) specified it as an "official rumor", or something like that. I am setting up my fuel lines to handle multi-fuel systems. I plan to never use ethanol fuel, unless in an emergency, but have decided to pretend I am going to use it, and build accordingly. >Looking fwd receiving documented answers from experienced people. That's a bit loaded, isn't it? :-), I have no experience with the poly tank, but It is widely used in many applications, and is chemically resistant to most things. I am (here it goes) 'assuming' that it will work well for alcohol gas. Subject to modification from what others have seen, of course. Since it is an "official rumor", then I am doing this: Do not archive Regards, Greg 914-XS-Tri (module not quite in, yet---eeks, there are too many small things to do) _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Remi Guerner Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 1:43 AM Subject: Europa-List: Alcoholic Mogas Hi all, During the last few days, I tested several samples of Mogas (all purchased in the Paris area) to determine if they were containing alcohol. The results are as follows: 95 Unleaded from a supermarket: about 2,5 % alcool 95 Unleaded from a well known brand: about 2,5 % alcool 98 Unleaded from a well known brand: no alcool For those not familiar with french designation of Mogas, 95 Unleaded is our basic mogas while 98 is Super. Rotax says alcool in the fuel should be avoided but tolerates up to 5% (SI 912-016 R1) so we can assume there is probably no risk with the engine up to that ratio. I do not think there is a risk either with our fuel lines as most of us are using automotive hoses designed for mogas. Same for fuel pumps. But what about the fuel tank which is already subject to bulging and cracking even without alcool? What about fuel pressure sensors? Fuel flow sensors? As more and more alcohol will be introduced in mogas in the near future, it would be beneficial to all of us to know better about its side effect on our fuel system. Looking fwd receiving documented answers from experienced people. Regards Remi Guerner F-PGKL ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:51 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Europa-List: Europa project wanted! I am still looking for a Europa Project (part built or damaged). Would prefer Tri Gear, but would however consider Tail dragger or Monowheel under the right circumstances! rgds David J ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:26 AM PST US From: "Garry" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa project wanted! David, where are you located? Garry Stout Tampa, Florida USA ----- Original Message ----- From: David Joyce To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 9:55 AM Subject: Europa-List: Europa project wanted! I am still looking for a Europa Project (part built or damaged). Would prefer Tri Gear, but would however consider Tail dragger or Monowheel under the right circumstances! rgds David J ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:57 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: wing root fairings On Feb 25, 2009, at 1:28 AM, craig bastin wrote: > I get the impression you are looking at cutting the top fairing and > fitting it to the flap, > just a suggestion, but would it not be easier to just have the flap > come up against the bottom of the > top fairings and sit in a "step" in the bottom fairing. Craig, Truly...suggestions and feedback are most welcome (as are critiques as well!). I must admit I'd scratched my head a bit early on, thinking much like you have...and no doubt your particular suggestion would be doable...certainly for a trigear, and for a mono as well, as long as one is not wedded to the standard monowheel trailer. The configuration shown is designed to limit the amount of projection of that portion of the fairing which is bonded to the fuselage so as not to conflict w/ the wings when stowed on the trailer. > As i said great work and this is in no way a critisism of what you > have achieved so far, I simply offer > a suggestion that MAY make life easier come fitting etc. It's certainly possible that an intrepid trigear builder may take the moldings and do just what you've suggested. > I look forward to the flight test data from the trike > you mentioned. ...as do I... Fred A194 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:00 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: wing root fairings On Feb 25, 2009, at 2:11 AM, Graham Singleton wrote: > they look superb! I can't wait to hear what the performance gain is Graham, Thank you...I too will be interested to see what gains, if any, emerge from this endeavor. Re: photos of a tufted G-KWIP, it certainly appears that with your less elaborate flap-fairing, the air flow is pretty smooth...though I see some indications that increasing the vertical radius of the fillet could be beneficial. The photo w/ the flaps deployed is reassuring. By any chance, was the stock airframe ever tufted and photographed? I'd heard some time ago that the Club was pestering Justin Kennedy to record some performance profiles w/ G-ZTED (classic)...his work on the fuselage/wing intersection is also quite interesting and inspired me to take it perhaps one step further. Any chance of getting some flight data fro Justin? Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:09 AM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: wing root fairings Hi! Fred /Craig Take a look at my flap/wing fairings at www.crix.org.uk under "Bob Harrison G-PTAG" Regards Bob Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: 25 February 2009 16:08 Subject: Re: Europa-List: wing root fairings On Feb 25, 2009, at 1:28 AM, craig bastin wrote: I get the impression you are looking at cutting the top fairing and fitting it to the flap, just a suggestion, but would it not be easier to just have the flap come up against the bottom of the top fairings and sit in a "step" in the bottom fairing. Craig, Truly...suggestions and feedback are most welcome (as are critiques as well!). I must admit I'd scratched my head a bit early on, thinking much like you have...and no doubt your particular suggestion would be doable...certainly for a trigear, and for a mono as well, as long as one is not wedded to the standard monowheel trailer. The configuration shown is designed to limit the amount of projection of that portion of the fairing which is bonded to the fuselage so as not to conflict w/ the wings when stowed on the trailer. As i said great work and this is in no way a critisism of what you have achieved so far, I simply offer a suggestion that MAY make life easier come fitting etc. It's certainly possible that an intrepid trigear builder may take the moldings and do just what you've suggested. I look forward to the flight test data from the trike you mentioned. ...as do I... Fred A194 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:42 AM PST US From: Paul Boulet Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa project wanted! Hi David; I'm selling my Europa at a give away price.- Between career changes and r aising my family I have no time/money to finish it and fly it.- It's a tr i gear 914 powered located in Phoenix, AZ. - Call me to discuss details and what it needs to be finished.- Or give me your phone and I'll call you - Paul Boulet (310)963-0210 --- On Wed, 2/25/09, David Joyce wrote: From: David Joyce Subject: Europa-List: Europa project wanted! I am still looking for a Europa Project (part built or damaged). Would pref er Tri Gear, but would however consider Tail dragger or Monowheel under the right circumstances! - rgds David J ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:41 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: wing root fairings Fred Klein wrote: > -Re: photos of a tufted G-KWIP, it certainly appears that with your > less elaborate flap-fairing, the air flow is pretty smooth...though I > see some indications that increasing the vertical radius of the fillet > could be beneficial. The photo w/ the flaps deployed is reassuring. > > By any chance, was the stock airframe ever tufted and photographed? > > I'd heard some time ago that the Club was pestering Justin Kennedy to > record some performance profiles w/ G-ZTED (classic)...his work on the > fuselage/wing intersection is also quite interesting and inspired me > to take it perhaps one step further. Any chance of getting some flight > data fro Justin? > > Fred Hi Fred Ivan did tuft the standard airframe but he refused to let me see the pictures ?:-( He did say the standard was better than mine but I find that kinda hard to believe ;-) . I don't have a contact for Justin. Graham ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:52 PM PST US From: Paddy Clarke Subject: Europa-List: DOTH Wellesbourne Mountford Fri. 27th. Hi Folks, Hopefully it should stay fine 'til the weekend, so how about a DOTH on Friday. There seem to be no suitable vouchers in the Midlands, so I suggest we grasp the nettle and pay for Wellesbourne. 1200ish as usual. All the best, Paddy Paddy Clarke Europa G-KIMM ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:47 PM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Europa-List: Europa project wanted! Sorry I should have made clear am in the UK! rgds to all David J > > I am still looking for a Europa > Project (part built or damaged). Would prefer Tri Gear, but would however > consider Tail dragger or Monowheel under the right circumstances! > > > > rgds > > David J > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.