Today's Message Index:
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1. 04:53 AM - Re: large mag drop on both mags, 912uls (craig bastin)
2. 05:09 AM - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_large_mag_drop_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?on_both_mags=2C_912uls? (Carl Pattinson)
3. 07:20 AM - Re: large mag drop on both mags, 912uls (ALAN YERLY)
4. 08:35 AM - Carries more than 2, take wings off and trailer on road (rparigoris)
5. 09:43 AM - Re: Sun-N-Fun (Jeff B)
6. 09:54 AM - Rotax mag drop (Jerry Rehn)
7. 10:41 AM - large mag drop on both mags, 912uls (Erich Trombley)
8. 01:47 PM - Altitude encoder adjustment (Peter Rees)
9. 01:57 PM - Re: Rotax mag drop (Keith Hickling)
10. 02:15 PM - shielding for EMI/RFI (Fred Klein)
11. 02:30 PM - Re: large mag drop on both mags, 912uls (D Wysong)
12. 03:12 PM - Mag Drop (Jerry Rehn)
Message 1
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| Subject: | large mag drop on both mags, 912uls |
just curious, but what happens if you pull the air intake line off the carbs
and do the test. Other thing
is have you or the rotax man checked the timing. If the timing is late then
you will get incomplete combustion of the fuel, and the extra plug firing
will help overcome the late spark. If its late timing
it wont hurt the engine, but it wont be at its best either.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Keith Hickling
Sent: Friday, 27 February 2009 2:56 PM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Europa-List: large mag drop on both mags, 912uls
Hello all,
On first running my new 912 uls a couple of weeks ago, I got a mag drop pf
just over 500 rpm on one mag and just under 600 rpm on the other mag,
starting at 4000 rpm. All else was OK; oil temp and press, EGTs, CHTs etc,
and the engine ran quite smoothely; even on 1 mag with the rpm drop it was
not obviously rough or misfiring. Prop is Airmaster, operating correctly -
testing done on fine pitch.
Our local Rotax man thought it was probably not a real mag drop but a
tacho problem, though it sounded real. So yesterday we checked it with an
optical tacho and it was real. The optical tacho showed a rpm drop on the
prop from 1700 down to 1490, which is equivalent to a 500 rpm drop on the
engine.
Another rotax owner here suggested it might be the mag ground leads
shorting to the screen, as I had left the screen quite close to the end of
the wire where it enters the ignition modules. So today I stripped the
screen a bit further back, disconnected the screen ground and connected the
mag shorting wires to 2 temporary switches, bypassing the ignition switch
completely. This made no difference, still the same mag drop, eliminating
partial shorting of the mag wires as a cause.
The plug gaps are correct, and the plug colour looks OK. The throttle
cables are set correctly. The engine always starts first go, easily, and
runs smoothly. Our local engineers have no ideas, although they are not very
familiar with rotaxes. So I would really appreciate any advice on where to
go from here - what should I look at next?
Thanks,
Keith Hickling,
New Zealand,
Mono XS, Kit 613.
Message 2
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| Subject: | =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_large_mag_drop_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?on_both_mags=2C_912uls? |
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Hi,
Its a long shot but the plug leads are also screened. Bearing in mind that 4
plugs are powered by the LHS mag and the remaining 4 by the RHS mag if one
lead from each magneto set were shorting out the engine would be effectively
firing on 3 cylinders.
We had a situation where one of our leads was shorting out which caused a mag
drop on one side. Stripping back the screen at the plug end fixed the
problem.
What you describe certainly sounds as if one cylinder is not firing on each
set of mags. When both mags are live the problem would dissappear.
Due to the high voltage in the plug leads a short is much more likely here.
Crank the engine with the plugs unscrewed (but grounded) and it should be
possible to identify the faulty lead. Just be sure there is no fuel vapour
around (ie: drain the float chambers and disconnect the fuel).
PS: Rubber gloves are reccommended unless you want a shock !
Hope this helps.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Hickling
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 4:56 AM
Subject: Europa-List: large mag drop on both mags, 912uls
Hello all,
On first running my new 912 uls a couple of weeks ago, I got a mag drop pf
just over 500 rpm on one mag and just under 600 rpm on the other mag,
starting at 4000 rpm. All else was OK; oil temp and press, EGTs, CHTs etc,
and the engine ran quite smoothely; even on 1 mag with the rpm drop it was
not obviously rough or misfiring. Prop is Airmaster, operating correctly -
testing done on fine pitch.
Our local Rotax man thought it was probably not a real mag drop but a tacho
problem, though it sounded real. So yesterday we checked it with an optical
tacho and it was real. The optical tacho showed a rpm drop on the prop from
1700 down to 1490, which is equivalent to a 500 rpm drop on the engine.
Another rotax owner here suggested it might be the mag ground leads
shorting to the screen, as I had left the screen quite close to the end of
the wire where it enters the ignition modules. So today I stripped the
screen a bit further back, disconnected the screen ground and connected the
mag shorting wires to 2 temporary switches, bypassing the ignition switch
completely. This made no difference, still the same mag drop, eliminating
partial shorting of the mag wires as a cause.
The plug gaps are correct, and the plug colour looks OK. The throttle
cables are set correctly. The engine always starts first go, easily, and
runs smoothly. Our local engineers have no ideas, although they are not very
familiar with rotaxes. So I would really appreciate any advice on where to
go from here - what should I look at next?
Thanks,
Keith Hickling,
New Zealand,
Mono XS, Kit 613.
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: large mag drop on both mags, 912uls |
Keith,
I didn't notice what fuel you are running in on. 100LL aviation gas
gives less mag drop than the 92 to 94 RMS Premium fuel here in the
States. I must show my ignorance since most of my experience is with
the 914. I have yet to see a mag drop below 300 on Premium and even
less on Aviation Fuel. If the engine is running smooth as a sewing
machine on one mag, I would suspect the octane rating.
Hope it all works out. I used to think that if it didn't say Lycoming
or Continental, it didn't belong on an airplane. These Rotax's have
changed my opinion. My experience is they start and run well when
properly serviced right out of the box. Just wish they were fuel
injected.
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations.
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Hickling<mailto:keithhickling@clear.net.nz>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:56 PM
Subject: Europa-List: large mag drop on both mags, 912uls
Hello all,
On first running my new 912 uls a couple of weeks ago, I got a mag
drop pf just over 500 rpm on one mag and just under 600 rpm on the other
mag, starting at 4000 rpm. All else was OK; oil temp and press, EGTs,
CHTs etc, and the engine ran quite smoothely; even on 1 mag with the
rpm drop it was not obviously rough or misfiring. Prop is Airmaster,
operating correctly - testing done on fine pitch.
Our local Rotax man thought it was probably not a real mag drop but a
tacho problem, though it sounded real. So yesterday we checked it with
an optical tacho and it was real. The optical tacho showed a rpm drop on
the prop from 1700 down to 1490, which is equivalent to a 500 rpm drop
on the engine.
Another rotax owner here suggested it might be the mag ground leads
shorting to the screen, as I had left the screen quite close to the end
of the wire where it enters the ignition modules. So today I stripped
the screen a bit further back, disconnected the screen ground and
connected the mag shorting wires to 2 temporary switches, bypassing the
ignition switch completely. This made no difference, still the same mag
drop, eliminating partial shorting of the mag wires as a cause.
The plug gaps are correct, and the plug colour looks OK. The throttle
cables are set correctly. The engine always starts first go, easily, and
runs smoothly. Our local engineers have no ideas, although they are not
very familiar with rotaxes. So I would really appreciate any advice on
where to go from here - what should I look at next?
Thanks,
Keith Hickling,
New Zealand,
Mono XS, Kit 613.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Europa-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Carries more than 2, take wings off and trailer on road |
Hmmm, wondering if I should consider one of these?
Pic #73 on
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album271&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Ron Parigoris
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 5
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Add Mary and I to the list. Baby Blue will be there all week...
Jeff - Baby Blue
JEFF ROBERTS wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> I also will be attending Sun-N-Fun. I'll leave dates out for weather but
> if we get a good forecast I'll be flying Gold Rush in. If not I'll be
> flying commercial into Tampa.
>
> Jeff Roberts N128LJ Gold Rush
> Tri Gear 912
> Dates ???
> Staying in Zephyrhills with a friend.
> 615-406-8651 Cell
>
>> Erich Trombley
>> Classic 914
>> April 22nd - 26th
>> Flying into Tampa commercial
>> Camping
>> 702-682-0219
>>
>> Gary R. Roberts
>> Conventional 914
>> April 21 to 25
>> Flying into Tampa commercial
>> 520 307-7231
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> Purify your water with professional water treatment. Click now!
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
Message 6
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This is from my trouble shooting manual I received at a course I took from
Rotax, pretty good stuff, hope it helps.
Jerry
Message 7
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| Subject: | large mag drop on both mags, 912uls |
While I can't speak to the 912ULS (I have a 914), I can share this story
with you. I too had mag excessive drop (600 + rpm) but only on one mag
. I tried everything I could think of including new spark plugs, plug w
ires, swapping coils, purchasing a new coil, and overall conducting a ve
ry methodical diagnostic test program. All to no avail. I could not fi
gure out what was going on with the engine. To make matters worse the p
roblem seemed to have resolved itself without me changing anything. I w
as pulling my hair out. As silly as this is going to sound, it turned
out to be mixture. Yes, mixture. Interesting it was a function of ambi
ent temperature. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-micro
soft-com:office:office" />
All of my testing was conducted on the trailer in an unheated garage wit
h the garage door wide open and it was cold. It was only after the ambi
ent temps increased that the problem seemed to have gone away, however,
I hadn't't made that connection yet. Not realizing what was going on an
d with the problem having seemed to have fixed itself I made arrangement
s with a flight instructor to conduct a flight with me the following mor
ning. Well, as you can probably see where this is going, we got to the
airport in the morning and put the plane together. I started up the pla
ne and conducted a mag check. The #$%%^ problem was back, yet I hadn=92
t changed a thing. Also, I might add that even with the excessive mag
drop the engine ran very smooth. As such, the instructor suggested we t
ake it up and see how it performed in the pattern. There were no issues
on the take off roll and we continued with the flight. After one circu
it in the pattern, I performed a mag drop on downwind...perfect not even
100 rpm drop. The engine was running perfectly, although I did not kno
w why.
It was during the Rotax class I learned why. The instructor asked if an
yone had experienced significant mag drop. I raised my hand, =93Yes, ye
s, I have=94 I proclaimed. The instructor proceeded to walk me down a p
ath asking other questions such as, was the first time I noted the probl
em in the winter season or was it year round, =93winter=94 I replied. I
also noted that the drop was much worse on one mag. He then asked if i
t was a 914, "yes" I stated. The problem surfaced on the first flight o
f the winter season. In the four years prior to this incident the probl
em never surfaced. However, the summer preceding this winter flight I in
stalled an inter-cooler. As ambient temps drop the air becomes denser,
and with this density change the engine gets leaner. It is the lean co
ndition that causes the excess mag drop. The inter-cooler only served t
o exacerbate the situation, further cooling the inlet air.
The 914 differs from the 912 on the arrangement of the mags. On the 914
the top plugs of all cylinders are connected one mag and the bottom plu
gs to the other mag. On the 912 it is my understanding that one mag is
connected to two top plugs and two bottom plugs (opposing cylinders) wit
h the other mag controlling the other two top and bottom plugs. The cyl
inder heads of both the 912 and 914 are such that only one of the two pl
ugs per cylinder is optimized for ideal flame propagation/combustion (to
p I believe). Hence with the 914 when you isolate the top plugs via a m
ag drop you will note a greater mag drop than with the bottom circuit of
fline. With the 912 would see equal mag drops since two top plugs and
two bottom plugs are taken offline with each mag, thus canceling out the
differences in the head design. With a lean mixture the drop is more p
ronounced.
The fix, change the needle valve setting to enrich the mixture. Problem
solved.
Good luck with diagnosing the problem. Please keep us posted on your pr
ogress.
Erich Trombley
N28ET Classic Mono 914
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Altitude encoder adjustment |
Anyone in the UK had their altitude encoder repaired / adjusted? If so, was
it relativly cheap or are the units not economically repairable? We have an
Ameriking AK-350 that is being reported as over reading by about 500ft.
One alternative would be to ditch it and fit the serial to grey code
converted to the Dynon as I saw something on the interweb suggesting that
Ameriking were no longer in business.
Peter
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax mag drop |
Hi Jerry,
"This is from my trouble shooting manual I received at a course I took
from Rotax, pretty good stuff, hope it helps."
Many thanks for this, it looks really helpful, but I only got the first
page on carb troubleshooting, and not the second page on ignition
troubleshooting. Could you please send that too?
Keith.
Message 10
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| Subject: | shielding for EMI/RFI |
This shrink-wrap may be of some value for reducing comm noise...came
across it in McMaster catalogue
> A layer of cloth shielding protects your unshielded wire or cable
> from EMI/RFI. Use on shielded wire or cable for added protection or
> for coverage at the terminal where an existing shield has been
> stripped back for the connector. Tubing is black polyolefin. Note:
> For proper grounding, a conductive wire (see pages 782-784) or braid
> strip (see page 910) should be wound around the outside of wires or
> attached by solder or conductive epoxy (see page 3340)
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/115/797/=sesag
Fred
A194
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| Subject: | Re: large mag drop on both mags, 912uls |
> On first running my new 912 uls a couple of weeks ago, I got a mag drop
> pf just over 500 rpm on one mag and just under 600 rpm on the other mag,
> starting at 4000 rpm. All else was OK; oil temp and press, EGTs, CHTs
> etc, and the engine ran quite smoothely; even on 1 mag with the rpm
> drop it was not obviously rough or misfiring. Prop is Airmaster,
> operating correctly - testing done on fine pitch.
We chased a similar situation with our 914, Keith. Documented in the
archives here:
http://tinyurl.com/76oxud
Long story short, our issue was with the carb needle settings (... set
too lean as delivered from the factory).
Good luck!
D
Message 12
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Keith
Here's the second page.
Jerry
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