---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/27/09: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:53 AM - Re: large mag drop on both mags, 912uls (craig bastin) 2. 05:09 AM - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_large_mag_drop_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?on_both_mags=2C_912uls? (Carl Pattinson) 3. 07:20 AM - Re: large mag drop on both mags, 912uls (ALAN YERLY) 4. 08:35 AM - Carries more than 2, take wings off and trailer on road (rparigoris) 5. 09:43 AM - Re: Sun-N-Fun (Jeff B) 6. 09:54 AM - Rotax mag drop (Jerry Rehn) 7. 10:41 AM - large mag drop on both mags, 912uls (Erich Trombley) 8. 01:47 PM - Altitude encoder adjustment (Peter Rees) 9. 01:57 PM - Re: Rotax mag drop (Keith Hickling) 10. 02:15 PM - shielding for EMI/RFI (Fred Klein) 11. 02:30 PM - Re: large mag drop on both mags, 912uls (D Wysong) 12. 03:12 PM - Mag Drop (Jerry Rehn) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:22 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: large mag drop on both mags, 912uls just curious, but what happens if you pull the air intake line off the carbs and do the test. Other thing is have you or the rotax man checked the timing. If the timing is late then you will get incomplete combustion of the fuel, and the extra plug firing will help overcome the late spark. If its late timing it wont hurt the engine, but it wont be at its best either. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Keith Hickling Sent: Friday, 27 February 2009 2:56 PM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: large mag drop on both mags, 912uls Hello all, On first running my new 912 uls a couple of weeks ago, I got a mag drop pf just over 500 rpm on one mag and just under 600 rpm on the other mag, starting at 4000 rpm. All else was OK; oil temp and press, EGTs, CHTs etc, and the engine ran quite smoothely; even on 1 mag with the rpm drop it was not obviously rough or misfiring. Prop is Airmaster, operating correctly - testing done on fine pitch. Our local Rotax man thought it was probably not a real mag drop but a tacho problem, though it sounded real. So yesterday we checked it with an optical tacho and it was real. The optical tacho showed a rpm drop on the prop from 1700 down to 1490, which is equivalent to a 500 rpm drop on the engine. Another rotax owner here suggested it might be the mag ground leads shorting to the screen, as I had left the screen quite close to the end of the wire where it enters the ignition modules. So today I stripped the screen a bit further back, disconnected the screen ground and connected the mag shorting wires to 2 temporary switches, bypassing the ignition switch completely. This made no difference, still the same mag drop, eliminating partial shorting of the mag wires as a cause. The plug gaps are correct, and the plug colour looks OK. The throttle cables are set correctly. The engine always starts first go, easily, and runs smoothly. Our local engineers have no ideas, although they are not very familiar with rotaxes. So I would really appreciate any advice on where to go from here - what should I look at next? Thanks, Keith Hickling, New Zealand, Mono XS, Kit 613. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:15 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_large_mag_drop_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?on_both_mags=2C_912uls? X-mailer: iAVMailScanner 1.5.6.4 Hi, Its a long shot but the plug leads are also screened. Bearing in mind that 4 plugs are powered by the LHS mag and the remaining 4 by the RHS mag if one lead from each magneto set were shorting out the engine would be effectively firing on 3 cylinders. We had a situation where one of our leads was shorting out which caused a mag drop on one side. Stripping back the screen at the plug end fixed the problem. What you describe certainly sounds as if one cylinder is not firing on each set of mags. When both mags are live the problem would dissappear. Due to the high voltage in the plug leads a short is much more likely here. Crank the engine with the plugs unscrewed (but grounded) and it should be possible to identify the faulty lead. Just be sure there is no fuel vapour around (ie: drain the float chambers and disconnect the fuel). PS: Rubber gloves are reccommended unless you want a shock ! Hope this helps. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Hickling To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 4:56 AM Subject: Europa-List: large mag drop on both mags, 912uls Hello all, On first running my new 912 uls a couple of weeks ago, I got a mag drop pf just over 500 rpm on one mag and just under 600 rpm on the other mag, starting at 4000 rpm. All else was OK; oil temp and press, EGTs, CHTs etc, and the engine ran quite smoothely; even on 1 mag with the rpm drop it was not obviously rough or misfiring. Prop is Airmaster, operating correctly - testing done on fine pitch. Our local Rotax man thought it was probably not a real mag drop but a tacho problem, though it sounded real. So yesterday we checked it with an optical tacho and it was real. The optical tacho showed a rpm drop on the prop from 1700 down to 1490, which is equivalent to a 500 rpm drop on the engine. Another rotax owner here suggested it might be the mag ground leads shorting to the screen, as I had left the screen quite close to the end of the wire where it enters the ignition modules. So today I stripped the screen a bit further back, disconnected the screen ground and connected the mag shorting wires to 2 temporary switches, bypassing the ignition switch completely. This made no difference, still the same mag drop, eliminating partial shorting of the mag wires as a cause. The plug gaps are correct, and the plug colour looks OK. The throttle cables are set correctly. The engine always starts first go, easily, and runs smoothly. Our local engineers have no ideas, although they are not very familiar with rotaxes. So I would really appreciate any advice on where to go from here - what should I look at next? Thanks, Keith Hickling, New Zealand, Mono XS, Kit 613. ========= ========= ========= ========= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No viruses found in this incoming message Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.6.4 http://www.iolo.com _______________________________________ No viruses found in this outgoing message Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.6.4 http://www.iolo.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:09 AM PST US From: "ALAN YERLY" Subject: Re: Europa-List: large mag drop on both mags, 912uls Keith, I didn't notice what fuel you are running in on. 100LL aviation gas gives less mag drop than the 92 to 94 RMS Premium fuel here in the States. I must show my ignorance since most of my experience is with the 914. I have yet to see a mag drop below 300 on Premium and even less on Aviation Fuel. If the engine is running smooth as a sewing machine on one mag, I would suspect the octane rating. Hope it all works out. I used to think that if it didn't say Lycoming or Continental, it didn't belong on an airplane. These Rotax's have changed my opinion. My experience is they start and run well when properly serviced right out of the box. Just wish they were fuel injected. Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations. ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Hickling To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:56 PM Subject: Europa-List: large mag drop on both mags, 912uls Hello all, On first running my new 912 uls a couple of weeks ago, I got a mag drop pf just over 500 rpm on one mag and just under 600 rpm on the other mag, starting at 4000 rpm. All else was OK; oil temp and press, EGTs, CHTs etc, and the engine ran quite smoothely; even on 1 mag with the rpm drop it was not obviously rough or misfiring. Prop is Airmaster, operating correctly - testing done on fine pitch. Our local Rotax man thought it was probably not a real mag drop but a tacho problem, though it sounded real. So yesterday we checked it with an optical tacho and it was real. The optical tacho showed a rpm drop on the prop from 1700 down to 1490, which is equivalent to a 500 rpm drop on the engine. Another rotax owner here suggested it might be the mag ground leads shorting to the screen, as I had left the screen quite close to the end of the wire where it enters the ignition modules. So today I stripped the screen a bit further back, disconnected the screen ground and connected the mag shorting wires to 2 temporary switches, bypassing the ignition switch completely. This made no difference, still the same mag drop, eliminating partial shorting of the mag wires as a cause. The plug gaps are correct, and the plug colour looks OK. The throttle cables are set correctly. The engine always starts first go, easily, and runs smoothly. Our local engineers have no ideas, although they are not very familiar with rotaxes. So I would really appreciate any advice on where to go from here - what should I look at next? Thanks, Keith Hickling, New Zealand, Mono XS, Kit 613. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:20 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Carries more than 2, take wings off and trailer on road From: "rparigoris" Hmmm, wondering if I should consider one of these? Pic #73 on http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album271&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php Ron Parigoris Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:41 AM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Sun-N-Fun Add Mary and I to the list. Baby Blue will be there all week... Jeff - Baby Blue JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > > Hi All, > I also will be attending Sun-N-Fun. I'll leave dates out for weather but > if we get a good forecast I'll be flying Gold Rush in. If not I'll be > flying commercial into Tampa. > > Jeff Roberts N128LJ Gold Rush > Tri Gear 912 > Dates ??? > Staying in Zephyrhills with a friend. > 615-406-8651 Cell > >> Erich Trombley >> Classic 914 >> April 22nd - 26th >> Flying into Tampa commercial >> Camping >> 702-682-0219 >> >> Gary R. Roberts >> Conventional 914 >> April 21 to 25 >> Flying into Tampa commercial >> 520 307-7231 >> >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Purify your water with professional water treatment. Click now! >> >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:54:03 AM PST US From: "Jerry Rehn" Subject: Europa-List: Rotax mag drop This is from my trouble shooting manual I received at a course I took from Rotax, pretty good stuff, hope it helps. Jerry ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:31 AM PST US From: "Erich Trombley" Subject: Europa-List: large mag drop on both mags, 912uls While I can't speak to the 912ULS (I have a 914), I can share this story with you. I too had mag excessive drop (600 + rpm) but only on one mag . I tried everything I could think of including new spark plugs, plug w ires, swapping coils, purchasing a new coil, and overall conducting a ve ry methodical diagnostic test program. All to no avail. I could not fi gure out what was going on with the engine. To make matters worse the p roblem seemed to have resolved itself without me changing anything. I w as pulling my hair out. As silly as this is going to sound, it turned out to be mixture. Yes, mixture. Interesting it was a function of ambi ent temperature. All of my testing was conducted on the trailer in an unheated garage wit h the garage door wide open and it was cold. It was only after the ambi ent temps increased that the problem seemed to have gone away, however, I hadn't't made that connection yet. Not realizing what was going on an d with the problem having seemed to have fixed itself I made arrangement s with a flight instructor to conduct a flight with me the following mor ning. Well, as you can probably see where this is going, we got to the airport in the morning and put the plane together. I started up the pla ne and conducted a mag check. The #$%%^ problem was back, yet I hadn=92 t changed a thing. Also, I might add that even with the excessive mag drop the engine ran very smooth. As such, the instructor suggested we t ake it up and see how it performed in the pattern. There were no issues on the take off roll and we continued with the flight. After one circu it in the pattern, I performed a mag drop on downwind...perfect not even 100 rpm drop. The engine was running perfectly, although I did not kno w why. It was during the Rotax class I learned why. The instructor asked if an yone had experienced significant mag drop. I raised my hand, =93Yes, ye s, I have=94 I proclaimed. The instructor proceeded to walk me down a p ath asking other questions such as, was the first time I noted the probl em in the winter season or was it year round, =93winter=94 I replied. I also noted that the drop was much worse on one mag. He then asked if i t was a 914, "yes" I stated. The problem surfaced on the first flight o f the winter season. In the four years prior to this incident the probl em never surfaced. However, the summer preceding this winter flight I in stalled an inter-cooler. As ambient temps drop the air becomes denser, and with this density change the engine gets leaner. It is the lean co ndition that causes the excess mag drop. The inter-cooler only served t o exacerbate the situation, further cooling the inlet air. The 914 differs from the 912 on the arrangement of the mags. On the 914 the top plugs of all cylinders are connected one mag and the bottom plu gs to the other mag. On the 912 it is my understanding that one mag is connected to two top plugs and two bottom plugs (opposing cylinders) wit h the other mag controlling the other two top and bottom plugs. The cyl inder heads of both the 912 and 914 are such that only one of the two pl ugs per cylinder is optimized for ideal flame propagation/combustion (to p I believe). Hence with the 914 when you isolate the top plugs via a m ag drop you will note a greater mag drop than with the bottom circuit of fline. With the 912 would see equal mag drops since two top plugs and two bottom plugs are taken offline with each mag, thus canceling out the differences in the head design. With a lean mixture the drop is more p ronounced. The fix, change the needle valve setting to enrich the mixture. Problem solved. Good luck with diagnosing the problem. Please keep us posted on your pr ogress. Erich Trombley N28ET Classic Mono 914 ____________________________________________________________ Let great B to B marketing solutions propel your brand to new heights! C lick now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsKrsn14LnnWTyIZAqJMqZ7 kaIQ0JgZKUfD3v6De7QBZMMk7bA3m0o/ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:47:56 PM PST US From: "Peter Rees" Subject: Europa-List: Altitude encoder adjustment Anyone in the UK had their altitude encoder repaired / adjusted? If so, was it relativly cheap or are the units not economically repairable? We have an Ameriking AK-350 that is being reported as over reading by about 500ft. One alternative would be to ditch it and fit the serial to grey code converted to the Dynon as I saw something on the interweb suggesting that Ameriking were no longer in business. Peter ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:57:19 PM PST US From: Keith Hickling Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax mag drop Hi Jerry, "This is from my trouble shooting manual I received at a course I took from Rotax, pretty good stuff, hope it helps." Many thanks for this, it looks really helpful, but I only got the first page on carb troubleshooting, and not the second page on ignition troubleshooting. Could you please send that too? Keith. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:15 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Europa-List: shielding for EMI/RFI This shrink-wrap may be of some value for reducing comm noise...came across it in McMaster catalogue > A layer of cloth shielding protects your unshielded wire or cable > from EMI/RFI. Use on shielded wire or cable for added protection or > for coverage at the terminal where an existing shield has been > stripped back for the connector. Tubing is black polyolefin. Note: > For proper grounding, a conductive wire (see pages 782-784) or braid > strip (see page 910) should be wound around the outside of wires or > attached by solder or conductive epoxy (see page 3340) http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/115/797/=sesag Fred A194 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:33 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: large mag drop on both mags, 912uls From: D Wysong > On first running my new 912 uls a couple of weeks ago, I got a mag drop > pf just over 500 rpm on one mag and just under 600 rpm on the other mag, > starting at 4000 rpm. All else was OK; oil temp and press, EGTs, CHTs > etc, and the engine ran quite smoothely; even on 1 mag with the rpm > drop it was not obviously rough or misfiring. Prop is Airmaster, > operating correctly - testing done on fine pitch. We chased a similar situation with our 914, Keith. Documented in the archives here: http://tinyurl.com/76oxud Long story short, our issue was with the carb needle settings (... set too lean as delivered from the factory). Good luck! D ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:12:17 PM PST US From: "Jerry Rehn" Subject: Europa-List: Mag Drop Keith Here's the second page. 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