Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:15 AM - Re: Flap position, Flight testing (Lance Sandford)
2. 04:24 AM - Re: Flap position, Flight testing (Jim Brown)
3. 04:29 AM - Re: Flap position, Flight testing (Jim Brown)
4. 05:06 AM - Re: Flap position, Flight testing (Kevin Klinefelter)
5. 09:09 AM - Flap position, flight testing (Fergus Kyle)
6. 09:37 AM - Re: Flap position, flight testing (Graham Singleton)
7. 10:09 AM - Re: DOTH Sandtoft Friday 6th (Robert C Harrison)
8. 10:09 AM - U2 just a big Europa? (Terry Seaver (terrys))
9. 11:36 AM - Re: Flap position, Flight testing (William McClellan)
10. 12:25 PM - Re: U2 just a big Europa? ()
11. 02:47 PM - Re: U2 just a big Europa? (Fred Klein)
12. 05:04 PM - Re: Flap position, Flight testing (Jim Brown)
13. 05:06 PM - Re: U2 just a big Europa? (Kevin Klinefelter)
14. 06:20 PM - Re: U2 just a big Europa? (Robert Borger)
15. 08:42 PM - Re: Flap position, flight testing (Kingsley Hurst)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Flap position, Flight testing |
Kevin
I agree with Mike. Left Flap down would give right bank, all other
things being equal.
Looks like a complete rigging check. Sorry to slow down your testing.
Regards
Lance Sandford in OZ
>
> Kevin,
>
>
>
> Your symptoms seem to contradict your analysis, or maybe I am
> completely out to lunch. If the left flap were lower, then the left
> wing would produce more lift - manifesting itself in a right turn.
> On my monowheel, there is a slight tendency to roll left when flown
> solo. With 2 up, the roll disappears. You need to check the flap
> position using the profile jig that was originally used to set the
> flap position. Is the wash out correct on both ailerons and flaps.
> Does the aircraft drop a left wing at the stall?
>
> G-JULZ had a nasty wing drop at the stall which was cured by a slight
> adjustment of the ailerons. The ailerons on my classic wings have a
> very slight difference in neutral between sat on the ground and loaded
> in flight. Also, I guess you are using the slip ball to trim out in
> flight, is the slip ball horizontal set correctly, I fitted a small
> trim tab to the rudder to make the aircraft straighten up and fly
> right as the song goes. Could it be a rudder trim problem?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *craig
> bastin
> *Sent:* 06 March 2009 03:41
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: Europa-List: Flap position, Flight testing
>
>
>
> I think you might run into assymetry issues between the tube and the
> pins with one hinge arm longer
>
> than the other. If you did the alignment of the plates and the
> two root end flap hinges and all was good
>
> you may have the pin in the flap out of position. if thats the case,
> you could get a machine shop to make a
>
> new pin that is eccentric, rather then the longer process of cutting
> the flap to bits to move the pin a few mm.
>
> The other thing is if you correct the cruise issue, what will happen
> at full flap, will it have a nasty habbit of pulling to the right, or
> rolling left because of the extra lift on the right wing???? Just a
> thought.
>
>
>
> The other thing is maybe... you should look at both flaps, and the
> clearances, perchance the left flap
>
> is hitting inside the wing, thus holding it a few mm down compared to
> the right wing. I had an issue
>
> with that, i ended up removing about 20mm from the from of one flap
> and reglassing it to get it to fully retract.
>
>
>
> craig
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]*On Behalf Of
> *Kevin Klinefelter
> *Sent:* Friday, 6 March 2009 9:39 AM
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Europa-List: Flap position, Flight testing
>
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> Flight testing of 914 powered monowheel N211KA is going well (29
> hours).I have a flap position question for those who have been there.
>
> The aircraft has an irritating left turn in it when flown solo and
> slight left turn with two up. When trimmed out cruising straight
> and level the ailerons are close to even with the wing tips and
> the left flap is noticeably lower relative to it's aileron than
> the right side, which is almost even with the aileron. I think if
> I can rig the left flap up even with the aileron it will help cure
> the left turning problem and be less drag.
>
>
>
> I thought I might get a new flap hinge arm (FL16) on the left and
> with the aircraft supported and flaps up in the desired position I
> could drill new holes thru the lugs on the tourqe tube so the
> left flap retacted position matches the right.
>
>
>
> Will this work or is there a better way?
>
>
>
> Thanks, Kevin... flying and grinning...
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Flap position, Flight testing |
Kevin
-
I would think that given the left flap is lower than the right flap that th
e plane would be turning right. Given that the left flap will have more pre
ssure on it than the right flap.
-
I would suggest that on the next flight check the turn and bank ball. and s
ee if its setting to the right. Try centering the ball with rudder and see
if that helps.
-
Jim Brown
--- On Thu, 3/5/09, Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky.com> wrote:
From: Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Flap position, Flight testing
Hi All,--- ---
-
Flight testing of 914 powered monowheel N211KA is going well (29 hours).I h
ave a flap position question for those who have been there.
The aircraft has an irritating-left turn in it when flown solo and slight
left turn with two up. When trimmed out cruising straight and level the ai
lerons are close to even with the wing tips and the left flap is noticeably
lower relative to it's aileron than the right side, which is almost even w
ith the aileron. I think if I can rig the left flap up even with the ailero
n it will help cure the left turning problem and be less drag.
-
I thought I might get a new flap hinge arm (FL16) on the left-and with th
e aircraft supported and flaps up in the desired position I could drill new
holes thru the lugs on the tourqe tube- so the left flap retacted positi
on matches the right.
-
Will this work or is there a better way?
-
Thanks, Kevin... flying and grinning...
-
-
=0A=0A=0A
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Flap position, Flight testing |
Kevin
-
I would think that given the left flap is lower than the right flap that th
e plane would be turning right. Given that the left flap will have more pre
ssure on it than the right flap.
-
I would suggest that on the next flight check the turn and bank ball. and s
ee if its setting to the right. Try centering the ball with rudder and see
if that helps.
-
Jim Brown
--- On Thu, 3/5/09, Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky.com> wrote:
From: Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Flap position, Flight testing
Hi All,--- ---
-
Flight testing of 914 powered monowheel N211KA is going well (29 hours).I h
ave a flap position question for those who have been there.
The aircraft has an irritating-left turn in it when flown solo and slight
left turn with two up. When trimmed out cruising straight and level the ai
lerons are close to even with the wing tips and the left flap is noticeably
lower relative to it's aileron than the right side, which is almost even w
ith the aileron. I think if I can rig the left flap up even with the ailero
n it will help cure the left turning problem and be less drag.
-
I thought I might get a new flap hinge arm (FL16) on the left-and with th
e aircraft supported and flaps up in the desired position I could drill new
holes thru the lugs on the tourqe tube- so the left flap retacted positi
on matches the right.
-
Will this work or is there a better way?
-
Thanks, Kevin... flying and grinning...
-
-
=0A=0A=0A
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Flap position, Flight testing |
Jim, In cruise I have to hold a little left rudder...
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Brown
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 4:21 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap position, Flight testing
Kevin
I would think that given the left flap is lower than the right
flap that the plane would be turning right. Given that the left flap
will have more pressure on it than the right flap.
I would suggest that on the next flight check the turn and bank
ball. and see if its setting to the right. Try centering the ball with
rudder and see if that helps.
Jim Brown
--- On Thu, 3/5/09, Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky.com> wrote:
From: Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Flap position, Flight testing
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, March 5, 2009, 11:38 PM
Hi All,
Flight testing of 914 powered monowheel N211KA is going well
(29 hours).I have a flap position question for those who have been
there.
The aircraft has an irritating left turn in it when flown solo
and slight left turn with two up. When trimmed out cruising straight and
level the ailerons are close to even with the wing tips and the left
flap is noticeably lower relative to it's aileron than the right side,
which is almost even with the aileron. I think if I can rig the left
flap up even with the aileron it will help cure the left turning problem
and be less drag.
I thought I might get a new flap hinge arm (FL16) on the left
and with the aircraft supported and flaps up in the desired position I
could drill new holes thru the lugs on the tourqe tube so the left flap
retacted position matches the right.
Will this work or is there a better way?
Thanks, Kevin... flying and grinning...
arget=_blank
rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com
blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 5
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| Subject: | Flap position, flight testing |
Kevin'
I won't be the first to suggest it, but wonder if it's so badly out
of sorts - when two-up it's only 'slightly' left-handed. This to me means
it's not very far away from trimmed. In that case, why not attach a short
bungee to the front of one side of the seat, and a jam-cleat to the stick
(up a few inches). Then when it's two- up, pull the bungee to the jam-cleat
and jam it. It is easily re-adjusted until comfy.
When solo, release and pull harder and jam. Yes, it'll fly a touch
sideways but if not far from trimmed then it won't be an efficiency problem.
I flew a DC9 for several years and then found the starboard wing was 8
inches shorter than the port. It sat right in the middle of the fleet
consumption curves.....
Ferg
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Flap position, flight testing |
Fergus Kyle wrote:
> I flew a DC9 for several years and then found the starboard wing was 8
> inches shorter than the port. It sat right in the middle of the fleet
> consumption curves.....
> Ferg
>
Knowing the captain I'd say it was more likely pilot skill that made the
difference and got it into the range ;-)
Graham
Message 7
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| Subject: | DOTH Sandtoft Friday 6th |
Hi! Paddy and all who attended the Sandtoft Fly In today. The weather
must have been excellent .
Pleased to "touch base " with you all .
Don't forget that Wickenby is a viable alternative in this area and does
an excellent food service with permanent staff in the club house for
future Doth events.
Enjoy the skiing Paddy don't "break a leg "!
Regards
Bob and Jan Harrison.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paddy
Clarke
Sent: 05 March 2009 09:21
Subject: Europa-List: DOTH Sandtoft Friday 6th
Hi Folks,
Hopefully the showers should die down for tomorrow (Friday 6th), so how
about a DOTH to Sandtoft?. Voucher in Pilot - 1200ish.
Another place up that way with a voucher is Netherthorpe. I've never
been there and it looks a bit tight. Could anyone based there, or who
knows it well, comment as to its suitability for a future DOTH?
All the best, Paddy
Paddy Clarke
Europa G-KIMM
Message 8
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| Subject: | U2 just a big Europa? |
Europa may indeed just be a mini-U2.
Check out the video on landings, been there, done that.
regards,
Terry Seaver
A135/N135TD, long wing, MONO-wheel XS
http://tailspinstales.blogspot.com/2009/02/taming-taildragging-dragon-la
dy.html
Message 9
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| Subject: | RE: Flap position, Flight testing |
Kevin,
You are probably doing this but you need to isolate the problem as much as possible.
You say it has an "irritating left turn". It seems you have decided it
is primarily aileron/flap (roll) and not a yaw problem, right? What do you have
to do to get it "trimmed out cruising straight and level", aileron or rudder
or both? If both, which is most effective? Since you have put 29 hrs on
so far, have you lived with this for this time or is it an increasing problem?
Is the problem consistent with flaps up or down? As mentioned in this thread,
a slightly deployed left flap should make you turn right not left, so this
wouldn't seem to be the problem or at least not the only problem. Slight adjustments
can be made at the flap hinge bolts connecting to the wing, but keep the
inboard flap pivot bolt in close alignment with the hinge under the fuse.
Slightly more adjustment can be achieved by off setting hinge to wing and re-drilling
for 1/4" bolt. When on the ground can the ailerons and flaps be put
in the correct alignment? It's not likely to be the ailerons creating roll as
you should be able to neutralize roll at the stick. Unless you have a wing leveling
servo that's interfering. Does the plane stall level or not?
This probably will include as Fred Klein says, taking it back in the shop and do
all the trim set up and measurements again. Is the angle of incidence equal?
Hopefully the wing washout is right as that would be hard to change. Check
measurement from leading edge wing tip to some point on centerline as far aft
as possible. Hope this helps.
Good luck finding the problem.
Bill McClellan
A164
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: U2 just a big Europa? |
Now i know why i built a tri-gear :-)
Ivor
---- "Terry Seaver (terrys)" <terrys@cisco.com> wrote:
> Europa may indeed just be a mini-U2.
>
> Check out the video on landings, been there, done that.
>
> regards,
> Terry Seaver
> A135/N135TD, long wing, MONO-wheel XS
>
> http://tailspinstales.blogspot.com/2009/02/taming-taildragging-dragon-la
> dy.html
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: U2 just a big Europa? |
>
> ---- "Terry Seaver (terrys)" <terrys@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> Europa may indeed just be a mini-U2.
Jeesus Terry...I have newfound respect for all the sailplane guys...
And how do you like your long wings?
Fred
A194
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Flap position, Flight testing |
Kevin
-
Your statment "in cruise I have to hold a little left rudder".. Is this to
keep the plane from a slight turning to the right? Is the right wing low wi
thout rudder ?
-
The next time you fly, do this for me. Once in normal cruse, take your feet
off the rudder pedals. Use your stick to level the plane, then observe whe
re the sticks position is. Is it to the left of center or is it to the righ
of center, or does it remain centered ? In this position of wings level, w
here is the ball? Is it to the right, or to the left, or is it centered?
-
The monowheel-does have-a tendenancy to turn left a little, when flown
solo.
-
Jim Brown
--- On Fri, 3/6/09, Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky.com> wrote:
From: Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap position, Flight testing
Jim, In cruise I have to hold a little left rudder...
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Brown
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 4:21 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap position, Flight testing
Kevin
-
I would think that given the left flap is lower than the right flap that th
e plane would be turning right. Given that the left flap will have more pre
ssure on it than the right flap.
-
I would suggest that on the next flight check the turn and bank ball. and s
ee if its setting to the right. Try centering the ball with rudder and see
if that helps.
-
Jim Brown
--- On Thu, 3/5/09, Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky.com> wrote:
From: Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Flap position, Flight testing
Hi All,--- ---
-
Flight testing of 914 powered monowheel N211KA is going well (29 hours).I h
ave a flap position question for those who have been there.
The aircraft has an irritating-left turn in it when flown solo and slight
left turn with two up. When trimmed out cruising straight and level the ai
lerons are close to even with the wing tips and the left flap is noticeably
lower relative to it's aileron than the right side, which is almost even w
ith the aileron. I think if I can rig the left flap up even with the ailero
n it will help cure the left turning problem and be less drag.
-
I thought I might get a new flap hinge arm (FL16) on the left-and with th
e aircraft supported and flaps up in the desired position I could drill new
holes thru the lugs on the tourqe tube- so the left flap retacted positi
on matches the right.
-
Will this work or is there a better way?
-
Thanks, Kevin... flying and grinning...
-
-
arget=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Lis
t
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blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: U2 just a big Europa? |
FW: U2Terry,
Thanks for that. Makes me feel much better after the bounce I did today!
Kevin
short-wing MONO-wheel XS
----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Seaver (terrys)
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 9:55 AM
Subject: Europa-List: U2 just a big Europa?
Europa may indeed just be a mini-U2.
Check out the video on landings, been there, done that.
regards,
Terry Seaver
A135/N135TD, long wing, MONO-wheel XS
http://tailspinstales.blogspot.com/2009/02/taming-taildragging-dragon-lad
y.html
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: U2 just a big Europa? |
Terry,
Thanks! I don't feel bad at all now. I just have to get to know my
own little dragon lady.
Check six,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
Aircraft Flying!
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Mar 6, 2009, at 11:55, Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote:
> Europa may indeed just be a mini-U2.
>
> Check out the video on landings, been there, done that.
>
> regards,
> Terry Seaver
> A135/N135TD, long wing, MONO-wheel XS
>
> http://tailspinstales.blogspot.com/2009/02/taming-taildragging-dragon-lady.html
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Flap position, flight testing |
> I flew a DC9 for several years and then found the starboard wing was 8
> inches shorter than the port.
So what did you hit with the starboard wing Ferg ??? Hangar door not open
properly ??? Just joking mate.
Kingsley
do not archive.
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