Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:17 AM - Re: transponder antenna wiring (Fred Klein)
2. 03:18 AM - Re: transponder antenna wiring (Frans Veldman)
3. 03:33 AM - Re: transponder antenna wiring (Robert C Harrison)
4. 07:49 AM - Re: Temperature drop across oil radiator (ALAN YERLY)
5. 09:18 AM - Re: Aileron Thickness (ALAN YERLY)
6. 09:21 AM - Re: transponder antenna wiring (Fred Klein)
7. 12:09 PM - Re: Aileron Thickness (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
8. 03:15 PM - Re: transponder antenna wiring (Frans Veldman)
9. 03:20 PM - Re: Flap position, Flight testing (Jim Brown)
10. 04:51 PM - Re: transponder antenna wiring (Rowland Carson)
11. 06:12 PM - Re: transponder antenna wiring (Paul McAllister)
12. 09:37 PM - Total energy probe install (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
13. 09:37 PM - Re: Flap position, Flight testing (Kevin Klinefelter)
14. 09:49 PM - Re: transponder antenna wiring (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
15. 09:53 PM - Re: Total energy probe install (Fred Klein)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: transponder antenna wiring |
Spent the evening at Europa University scrolling thru the archives on
this subject...thanks for all the input assembled when these issues
have been previously discussed so thoroughly!
Fred
On Mar 14, 2009, at 6:22 PM, Fred Klein wrote:
> I'm in the midst of locating antennae and attempting to zero in on
> avionics selection.
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: transponder antenna wiring |
Fred Klein wrote:
> I find in the Garmin Installation Manual for their 320A transponder a
> max. length for the RG-400 coax to be 8.8 feet, 12.5 feet for RG304 (a
> coax which I've yet to see for sale anywhere, and 17.0 feet for "ECS
> Type 311601 sold by Electronic Cable Specialists in Wisconsin (again, a
> product which I haven't seen in any of our wiring discussions). This may
> be a moot point as I expect to use the Narco 165 (Value Series, to save
> a few bucks [unless the consensus might be that doing so would be
> pennywise/pound foolish].)
This is one of the reasons why I choosed a transponder where the actual
transmitter and the panel part are separate. There is just a very thin
and light weight data cable in between; I will mount the antenna
directly onto the transmitter part, which will be located somewhere in
the tail section. Another reason for this is of course that mode-S is
mandatory here.
You might consider doing the same, especially if mode S requirements are
foreseen in the near future. It saves you some headaches now and maybe
in the future if mode S is coming your way ultimately.
If you choose to go for the coax routing, keep in mind that the 8.8 foot
is an arbitrairy value. You won't notice much difference between 8.5
foot of cable or 9 foot of cable. The whole point is that the high
frequencies attenuate very fast in coax cable, so the shorter the
better. In fact, a less optimal antenna location but with a shorter
cable is preferable over a better antenna location but with a much
longer cable. All this has nothing to do with the transponder
manufacturer but with the signals used by the transponder, and is equal
for Garmins and Narco's.
Thicker, heavier cables have less attenuation than standard size coax,
so these bulky cables can be used for longer distances. However, more
length of a cable which is also heavier by itself, comes with a
substantial weight penalty, and these cables are difficult to route.
Bends need a large radius; a little bit to tight and the attenuation
comes up again spoiling the advantages of the expensive heavy cable. Oh,
and they often forget to tell you, but these cables "age" and losses
build up year after year. A tiny amount of moisture in the cable kills
the signals. All with all, I think I wouldn't go for low loss cables.
An option would be to mount the transponder antenna under the radiator
cowling. There is already metal there that can double duty as a ground
plane, and as a shield/reflector, so the signals go to the ground
instead of to your head and nearby avionics. ;-) And this allows for a
very short cable run.
And of course, it all depends about how much you care about transponder
performance. ;-)
--
Frans Veldman
Message 3
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| Subject: | transponder antenna wiring |
Hi! Fred
Mine has worked with the Garmin 320A with the antenna located on the
belly about 12" behind the enlarged baggage bay couldn't begin to tell
you what standard wire or length it is. I hope I don't pick up any
difficulty with the existing Gold Wing Strobe kit mounted about 24"
further aft but I'm holding my breath with the Garmin 328 now fitted and
the Skyflash strobe currently being fitted in identical locations.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: 15 March 2009 01:22
Subject: Europa-List: transponder antenna wiring
Hi All,
I'm in the midst of locating antennae and attempting to zero in on
avionics selection.
I find in the Garmin Installation Manual for their 320A transponder a
max. length for the RG-400 coax to be 8.8 feet, 12.5 feet for RG304 (a
coax which I've yet to see for sale anywhere, and 17.0 feet for "ECS
Type 311601 sold by Electronic Cable Specialists in Wisconsin (again,
a product which I haven't seen in any of our wiring discussions). This
may be a moot point as I expect to use the Narco 165 (Value Series, to
save a few bucks [unless the consensus might be that doing so would be
pennywise/pound foolish].) I can't seem to find a downloadable
installation manual for the Narco, so I'm not sure that Garmin's 8.8
foot max would still apply.
On our forum, I've only found folks using RG-400. I don't see how I
can get the distance down to an 8.8 foot run from antenna to the
panel, unless I bring the transponder antenna forward to just aft of
the baggage bay (close to strobe power supply; however, it seems many
guys have put the transponder as far aft as possible abeam the rear
bulkhead.
Any advice and counsel to this electronic neophyte would be much
appreciated...don't want to get anal, but don't want to create
problems either,
Thanks,
Fred
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Temperature drop across oil radiator |
Gilles and Paul,
My tests at the shop show a max of 60 F, so not too far off yours Paul.
I designed my heater that pulls from the oil cooler to be at a delta of
30 F from the center of the cooler for us down here in Florida and it
works out about right...
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations
----- Original Message -----
From: Gilles Thesee<mailto:Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Temperature drop across oil radiator
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr<mailto:Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>>
Paul McAllister a =E9crit :
> I am trying to get some data on the temperature drop across the oil
> cooler and I was wondering if any of the folks who had experimented
> with oil thermostats have measured the oil inlet and outlet
temperatures.
Paul,
No experience with oil thermostat (I consider cowl flaps much much
preferable), but I measured oil temp drops of the order of
25-30=B0Celsius.
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr<http://contrails.free.fr/>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Europa-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Thickness |
Mike,
Your top skin installation technique is what is the variable that we
can't answer or fix for you on the gap difference between aircraft.
I've finished a number of Europa's and most of us have about 1/16
finished up to an 1/8 inch if you lay a straight edge along the wing
surface, again depending on top skin installation. To be honest, if
you filled your ailerons and flaps before putting on the top skin, your
gap spacing is more accurate and easier to do. Your weight arms will
require extra filler on the top of the aileron and will help make an
even fill of the gap. If you left your top skin untrimmed then put an
1/8 inch spacer (instead of the single mixing stick and tape spacer
loosely called for in the manual) between the high point of the aileron
and wing skin, the gap gets pretty large. If you let the top skin lay
flat on the aileron and shimmed only the joint area at about 1/16 inch,
the gap is pretty small. The top skin fit takes a little time to get
right and get level.
I filled one once to get it dead level, then put wet filler on the
leading edge of the aileron and moved the aileron up and down to get the
fill level exactly right to make the gap exactly match the upper wing
surface and the flap (that was a builder's error we won't discuss). By
the time, correction, extreme time it took me to get it finished, I
added so much weight to the aileron, I had to add weight to the
counterbalance arms to compensate. Now I just accept the small bump
down and go with it. The foam contour of the aileron is pretty close to
the radius you need so not a lot of leading edge radius work is
necessary.
Now to the fix: Sometimes the aileron itself is a little low on the
lower surface, and a shim of epoxy glass or metal needs to be added to
the wing hinge area to make it flush, or may need to be shimmed to make
the top gap look better. The aileron will need a very small amount of
filler to the lower surface near the hinge... This shimming will make a
slightly off aileron look much better and require less filler. Call me
lazy, but it is a lot less filler and is lighter to leave the small
amount of gap and have a full aileron travel with a long 1/16 inch
clearance between the skins with full up aileron.
The Glider wing has the closeout skin on the bottom, and that is no
picnic for getting the gap right either. In fact, on the glider, it is
much tougher to get the closeout of the wing to work out well without
building a jig. So be thankful for your small gap and a much easier to
clearance aileron with the small bump.
As a side note, the plane with the finished level aileron flew no
differently to my taste. Just keep the lower hinge gap small ( just
short of 1/16 inch finished) to reduce aileron gap seal leaks and it
will roll delightfully.
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations
----- Original Message -----
From: DuaneFamly@aol.com<mailto:DuaneFamly@aol.com>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 9:04 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Aileron Thickness
Good day All,
Quick question........when I install my ailerons, the top surface of
each aileron is lower than the trailing edge of the wing.....how much is
acceptable? Should it be filled with micro to make it flush with the
wing trailing edge and then tapered to the aileron trailing edge?
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: transponder antenna wiring |
On Mar 15, 2009, at 3:14 AM, Frans Veldman wrote:
> This is one of the reasons why I chose a transponder where the actual
> transmitter and the panel part are separate.
Thanks Frans...and who makes such a transponder?
Fred
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Thickness |
Bud,
Thank you for such a full and understandable explanation. I now know that
with just a little adjustment to the hinge area and a little bit of fill on top
I'll be good to go.
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: transponder antenna wiring |
Fred Klein wrote:
> Thanks Frans...and who makes such a transponder?
Have a look at
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/garrechttransponder.php
They are somewhat more costly than "standard" transponders, but if mode
S becomes mandatory (like it is in Europe already in many countries) it
saves you from buying a transponder twice. I believe it is just a matter
of time before it becomes mandatory in the US as well.
The good thing is that mode-S can be linked to the GPS, enabling TCAS
for General Aviation.
For my 914 powered ship an additional advantage is that the most heavy
part of the transponder can be mounted aft, and only a very light weight
control unit has to be mounted in the instrument panel.
Anyway, I hate the costs, but as I said, in the Netherlands we have no
other choise than mode-S, unless one wants to limit himself to a maximum
of 1200 feet, and stay entirely out of controlled airspaces.
--
Frans Veldman
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Flap position, Flight testing |
Kevin
-
I had the same problem that you have, the ball was out about a quarter to t
he left. I solved my problem by installing a wedge of balsa wood on the RIG
HT side of the rudder.
-
The balsa wood came from a hobby shop, and is used for trailing edges on mo
del wings.-It is shaped like a wedge. The front is maby 1/32 and the rear
is 1/4 thick.. cut it to about 2 inches long. Temporary install on the Rig
ht side of the rudder with the 1/4 inch thick part at the trailing edge of
the rudder. Also locate it about half way down from the top of the rudder.
I used masking tape to hold it on. Then go fly, get plane in normal cruise,
take feet off pedals. where is ball. If the ball did no quite get centered
.. Use a longer wedge. If ball went to far, cut the wedge shorter. and go fl
y again. After a couple tries you should have the ball centered in normal c
ruise.
-
You can attach any way you want. Glue it on, use vinyl tape, RTV....
This makes a neater installation than gluing a piece of aluminum on the rud
der and then bending a tab to accomplish the same result.
-
When you start flying cross countrys at 17.500 ft you will see some very im
pressive ground speeds. It blows the controller's mind when you tell him yo
u are flying behind a Rotax. They think two strokes.
-
Jim Brown
-
--- On Sun, 3/15/09, Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky.com> wrote:
From: Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap position, Flight testing
Hi Jim,
I have- to hold just a little left rudder in cruise to center the ball on
my Dynon. Seems like I am skidding just a bit.
When I use the stick to level the plane I can do it with one finger, just a
pound or so to keep the left wing up cruising solo. In this position of wi
ngs level the ball is off to the left just enough to put the ball 1/4 on th
e line.
When gear and flaps are down, the left turn is more pronounced. And when st
alled dirty the left wing always drops.
-
-
Thanks to all for the responses. I have not tried changing anything yet. I
have just been enjoying this great little plane and trying very hard to get
better at landing her. I have been doing a lot of landings! And also some
high cruising, 17,000 feet over the snow covered Sierra, just amazing to be
there instead of in the garage...
-
Kevin, 35+ hours on the hobbs
A211, N211KA
Mono XS
Intercooled 914, Airmaster-Prop
From: Jim Brown
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap position, Flight testing
Kevin
-
Your statment "in cruise I have to hold a little left rudder".. Is this to
keep the plane from a slight turning to the right? Is the right wing low wi
thout rudder ?
-
The next time you fly, do this for me. Once in normal cruse, take your feet
off the rudder pedals. Use your stick to level the plane, then observe whe
re the sticks position is. Is it to the left of center or is it to the righ
of center, or does it remain centered ? In this position of wings level, w
here is the ball? Is it to the right, or to the left, or is it centered?
-
The monowheel-does have-a tendenancy to turn left a little, when flown
solo.
-
Jim Brown
--- On Fri, 3/6/09, Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky.com> wrote:
From: Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap position, Flight testing
Jim, In cruise I have to hold a little left rudder...
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Brown
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 4:21 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap position, Flight testing
Kevin
-
I would think that given the left flap is lower than the right flap that th
e plane would be turning right. Given that the left flap will have more pre
ssure on it than the right flap.
-
I would suggest that on the next flight check the turn and bank ball. and s
ee if its setting to the right. Try centering the ball with rudder and see
if that helps.
-
Jim Brown
--- On Thu, 3/5/09, Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky.com> wrote:
From: Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Flap position, Flight testing
Hi All,--- ---
-
Flight testing of 914 powered monowheel N211KA is going well (29 hours).I h
ave a flap position question for those who have been there.
The aircraft has an irritating-left turn in it when flown solo and slight
left turn with two up. When trimmed out cruising straight and level the ai
lerons are close to even with the wing tips and the left flap is noticeably
lower relative to it's aileron than the right side, which is almost even w
ith the aileron. I think if I can rig the left flap up even with the ailero
n it will help cure the left turning problem and be less drag.
-
I thought I might get a new flap hinge arm (FL16) on the left-and with th
e aircraft supported and flaps up in the desired position I could drill new
holes thru the lugs on the tourqe tube- so the left flap retacted positi
on matches the right.
-
Will this work or is there a better way?
-
Thanks, Kevin... flying and grinning...
-
-
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: transponder antenna wiring |
At 2009-03-15 09:21 -0700 Fred Klein wrote:
>On Mar 15, 2009, at 3:14 AM, Frans Veldman wrote:
>
>>This is one of the reasons why I chose a transponder where the actual
>>transmitter and the panel part are separate.
>
>Thanks Frans...and who makes such a transponder
Fred - have a look at the Trig TT21 - see:
http://www.trig-avionics.com
I think maybe Becker do a separate-head version too.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson http://home.clara.net/rowil/
| <rowil@clara.net> ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: transponder antenna wiring |
If the price of 1300 pounds is correct, this is $1800 US... not bad for a
mode S !
> Fred - have a look at the Trig TT21 - see:
>
> http://www.trig-avionics.com
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Total energy probe install |
Hi Group
I have a Ilec Vario and total energy probe.
I want to mount my total energy probe before I bond on topfuse.
Idea was to mount it on vertical fin.
Anyone have any
real world experience with a total energy probe mounted on vertical
fin?
Did you install level with port sill?
Or
mount at an angle to give it more height? What angle? Bout how high is the
tip compared with rudder cap?
Did you mount with bent part of
probe tip pointing up, or down?
Perhaps you mounted in another
location than vertical fin?
Any pics would be greatly
appreciated.
Ron Parigoris
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Flap position, Flight testing |
Jim,
I flew today with a friend (mutiple RV owner/builder) in the right seat.
He's a far more experienced and talented pilot than I. The plane turned
RIGHT ever so slightly hands off. The ball was off about the same to the
left.
Stalls dirty with the two of us broke a little to the right at low
power. He did lots of stalls and thought the plane flew very nicely. So
I'm not going to do anything regarding roll correction. I have a TruTrak
autopilot installed but not hooked up yet. I imagine it will work well
for longer flights, without aileron trim, solo or dual.
I like your rudder trim solution. If I understand correctly it looks
like a flettner strip on our trim tabs?
My RV friend landed the Europa-mono four times, each one getting better.
Made me feel better to see that he did some light bounces and showed me
that a fine touch on the throttle does wonders. He was impressed with
the 914/airmaster combo!
Thanks, Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Brown
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap position, Flight testing
Kevin
I had the same problem that you have, the ball was out about a
quarter to the left. I solved my problem by installing a wedge of balsa
wood on the RIGHT side of the rudder.
The balsa wood came from a hobby shop, and is used for trailing
edges on model wings. It is shaped like a wedge. The front is maby 1/32
and the rear is 1/4 thick.. cut it to about 2 inches long. Temporary
install on the Right side of the rudder with the 1/4 inch thick part at
the trailing edge of the rudder. Also locate it about half way down from
the top of the rudder.
I used masking tape to hold it on. Then go fly, get plane in
normal cruise, take feet off pedals. where is ball. If the ball did no
quite get centered. Use a longer wedge. If ball went to far, cut the
wedge shorter. and go fly again. After a couple tries you should have
the ball centered in normal cruise.
You can attach any way you want. Glue it on, use vinyl tape,
RTV....
This makes a neater installation than gluing a piece of aluminum
on the rudder and then bending a tab to accomplish the same result.
When you start flying cross countrys at 17.500 ft you will see
some very impressive ground speeds. It blows the controller's mind when
you tell him you are flying behind a Rotax. They think two strokes.
Jim Brown
--- On Sun, 3/15/09, Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky..com>
wrote:
From: Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap position, Flight testing
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Date: Sunday, March 15, 2009, 12:46 AM
Hi Jim,
I have to hold just a little left rudder in cruise to center
the ball on my Dynon. Seems like I am skidding just a bit.
When I use the stick to level the plane I can do it with one
finger, just a pound or so to keep the left wing up cruising solo. In
this position of wings level the ball is off to the left just enough to
put the ball 1/4 on the line.
When gear and flaps are down, the left turn is more
pronounced. And when stalled dirty the left wing always drops.
Thanks to all for the responses. I have not tried changing
anything yet. I have just been enjoying this great little plane and
trying very hard to get better at landing her. I have been doing a lot
of landings! And also some high cruising, 17,000 feet over the snow
covered Sierra, just amazing to be there instead of in the garage...
Kevin, 35+ hours on the hobbs
A211, N211KA
Mono XS
Intercooled 914, Airmaster Prop
From: Jim Brown
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap position, Flight testing
Kevin
Your statment "in cruise I have to hold a little left
rudder".. Is this to keep the plane from a slight turning to the right?
Is the right wing low without rudder ?
The next time you fly, do this for me. Once in normal
cruse, take your feet off the rudder pedals. Use your stick to level the
plane, then observe where the sticks position is. Is it to the left of
center or is it to the righ of center, or does it remain centered ? In
this position of wings level, where is the ball? Is it to the right, or
to the left, or is it centered?
The monowheel does have a tendenancy to turn left a
little, when flown solo.
Jim Brown
--- On Fri, 3/6/09, Kevin Klinefelter
<kevann@gotsky.com> wrote:
From: Kevin Klinefelter <kevann@gotsky.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap position, Flight
testing
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 1:04 PM
Jim, In cruise I have to hold a little left
rudder...
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Brown
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 4:21 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap position, Flight
testing
Kevin
I would think that given the left flap is
lower than the right flap that the plane would be turning right. Given
that the left flap will have more pressure on it than the right flap.
I would suggest that on the next flight
check the turn and bank ball. and see if its setting to the right. Try
centering the ball with rudder and see if that helps.
Jim Brown
--- On Thu, 3/5/09, Kevin Klinefelter
<kevann@gotsky.com> wrote:
From: Kevin Klinefelter
<kevann@gotsky.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Flap position,
Flight testing
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, March 5, 2009, 11:38 PM
Hi All,
Flight testing of 914 powered monowheel
N211KA is going well (29 hours).I have a flap position question for
those who have been there.
The aircraft has an irritating left turn
in it when flown solo and slight left turn with two up. When trimmed out
cruising straight and level the ailerons are close to even with the wing
tips and the left flap is noticeably lower relative to it's aileron than
the right side, which is almost even with the aileron. I think if I can
rig the left flap up even with the aileron it will help cure the left
turning problem and be less drag.
I thought I might get a new flap hinge arm
(FL16) on the left and with the aircraft supported and flaps up in the
desired position I could drill new holes thru the lugs on the tourqe
tube so the left flap retacted position matches the right.
Will this work or is there a better way?
Thanks, Kevin... flying and grinning...
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Message 14
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| Subject: | transponder antenna wiring |
Hi Fred
I went with a long run of RG142A cable.
See:
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album272&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
for information on cable and my plan. I went with a Becker 250
watt unit, not their 175 watt unit. If performance is poor, I have notes
on RG213 equivilent from ECS.
I have quote for them making up a
cable with a BNC and TNC connector, a few hundred dollars.
My run is from a bit forward of stabilator spar (torque tube) through
tunnel and into Transponder.
Going to have it checked before I
bond top of fuse on. Boy is that RG142A thin and light.
Ron
P.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Total energy probe install |
Ron,
Check w/ Rob Nells...he's placed his on the fin of his XS trigear w/
long wings...there are some pixs at matronics photoshare...I don't
think he monitors the forum often.
Fred
On Mar 15, 2009, at 9:30 PM, rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:
> I have a Ilec Vario and total energy probe.
>
> I want to mount my total energy probe before I bond on top fuse.
>
> Idea was to mount it on vertical fin.
>
> Anyone have any real world experience with a total energy probe
> mounted on vertical fin?
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