---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/18/09: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:21 AM - Europa Trigear Nosewheel damping (HANDFORDP@aol.com) 2. 01:49 AM - Re: Europa Trigear Nosewheel damping (Simon Smith) 3. 05:21 AM - Re: TCU / throttle software (h&jeuropa) 4. 07:32 AM - Woodcomp Propellers (Carl Pattinson) 5. 08:47 AM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (josok) 6. 09:18 AM - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Woodcomp_Propellers? (Carl Pattinson) 7. 09:38 AM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (Christoph Both) 8. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: Woodcomp Propellers (Christoph Both) 9. 10:41 AM - Re: TCU / throttle software (Paul Stewart) 10. 10:41 AM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (Karl Heindl) 11. 12:15 PM - Re: Europa Trigear Nosewheel damping (HANDFORDP@aol.com) 12. 12:53 PM - Re: Monowheel outrigger double downlock spring mod (glenn crowder) 13. 01:14 PM - Sun n Fun Attendance (ALAN YERLY) 14. 01:40 PM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (josok) 15. 02:05 PM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (david miller) 16. 02:17 PM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (Karl Heindl) 17. 02:17 PM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (Frans Veldman) 18. 02:21 PM - Re: Monowheel outrigger double downlock spring mod (Frans Veldman) 19. 04:59 PM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (David Joyce) 20. 07:43 PM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (Michael Grass) 21. 09:47 PM - Re: Monowheel outrigger double downlock spring mod (glenn crowder) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:21:17 AM PST US From: HANDFORDP@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Europa Trigear Nosewheel damping I believe there is a product that can be used to apply to the friction surfaces to aid the problem of achieving the correct degree of damping. If anyone knows of where this can be purchased please let me know. Thank you Peter Handford (G-PHXS) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:49:02 AM PST US From: Simon Smith Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Trigear Nosewheel damping Here you are! As posted by Steve V back in May 2006 DAMPING GREASE, it is available from NEWGATE SIMMS LTD. in chester , tel. 01244 660771 , it is available in a wide range of vicosities althogh i found that grade NYE 774VH works best. I have also used this and it works. Just use a thin layer on each side of the plastic washer. Simon Smith On 18 Mar 2009, at 08:18, HANDFORDP@aol.com wrote: > I believe there is a product that can be used to apply to the > friction surfaces to aid the problem of achieving the correct degree > of damping. If anyone knows of where this can be purchased please > let me know. Thank you > > Peter Handford (G-PHXS) > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:21:07 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: TCU / throttle software From: "h&jeuropa" Paul, The monitor program gives a read out of all sorts of engine parameters including RPM. You use it with the engine not running to set throttle position but you can certainly use it with the engine running to see RPM and for trouble shooting. Jim Butcher N241BW Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235074#235074 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:22 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers X-mailer: iAVMailScanner 1.5.6.4 Help ! Does anyone amongst the UK Europa fraternity have experience in dealing directly with the Woodcomp factory. I have one of the older Woodcomp propellers that I was hoping to fit to our Europa but the PFA have decreed that it requires a factory modification (or a dispensation from them to do the mod myself). The reason are these blades are capable of going into reverse and the PFA require stops fitting that would prevent this. Conrad Beale was the UK agent but has recently ceased in this role. The new UK agent RotoSport have told me they cant help because they havent got their agency set up yet. Also does anyone have a factory maintenance manual (or experience of assembling and disassembling the hub unit) - as I need to dismantle the hub and am reluctant to do so without proper instructions. My other option is to scrap the existing blades (which are brand new) and order a new set directly from the factory. Carl Pattinson G-LABS _______________________________________ No viruses found in this outgoing message Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.6.4 http://www.iolo.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers From: "josok" Hi Carl, While i am not in the UK part of the Europa fraternity :-) i still feel i should respond. First of all, i am happy to hear that the PFA does not accept the Woodcomp in flight adjustable without modification. It could have to do with the accident that happened to me, where exactly such a thing happened. My best advice is to scrap the hub and find another supplier. It could save your life and possibly others. Sorry for the outburst, please be assured that it is well ment. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:57 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Woodcomp_Propellers? X-mailer: iAVMailScanner 1.5.6.4 Hello Jos, I was advised that all Woodcomp in flight adjustable propellers are set up so that there is a physical stop which prevents each blade going outside the specified operating range. The hub/ blades are set up at the factory to each individual customer requirement. I understand there is a groove along the circumference of the blade roots and the stops locate within the groove. The length of the groove determines how far the blades can travel. Most Woodcomp setups can only go from coarse to fine pitch because of the length of the groove and consequently there is no risk of the blades travelling outside the operating range. The only Woodcomp props which can go into neutral or reverse are the ones where the customer has specified this (ie: the reverse pitch option). My prop (second hand) is one of the ones that have a longer groove and can currently go past neutral (ie: superfine and reverse). I believe your accident had a bearing on the PFA's decision to ban reverse pitch propellers. My understanding is that no one has identified why these propellers can go into an uncommanded reverse pitch situation and therefore the ban would seem to be a perfectly sensible precaution. As one who speaks from bitter experience I can understand your strong feelings over this matter. Best wishes, Carl. ----- Original Message ----- From: "josok" Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 3:44 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers > > > Hi Carl, > > While i am not in the UK part of the Europa fraternity :-) i still feel i > should respond. First of all, i am happy to hear that the PFA does not > accept the Woodcomp in flight adjustable without modification. It could > have to do with the accident that happened to me, where exactly such a > thing happened. My best advice is to scrap the hub and find another > supplier. It could save your life and possibly others. Sorry for the > outburst, please be assured that it is well ment. > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > _______________________________________ > No viruses found in this incoming message > Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.6.4 > http://www.iolo.com > _______________________________________ No viruses found in this outgoing message Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.6.4 http://www.iolo.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:38:08 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers From: "Christoph Both" Carl, How old are you blades and hub? I understand the newer versions have a mechanical stop built in so the hub cannot move the blades beyond the "fine" setting. This all makes perfect sense to me - thrust reverse option would scare the living hell out of me. Do I really need thrust reverse is such a simple aircraft as the Europa? I bought a 2 blade SR3000-2 with scimitar blades I hope to put into service this year. I bought it disassembled and the factory provided me with a detailed assembly manual as we in Canada live far away from Europe and the very high associated shipment fees. I opted for the variable pitch only because I do have an additional set of glider wings and feathering seems to make sense. Also, the performance characteristics of both type of aircraft require a different power/prop pitch curve for each set of wings, that is, a fixed prop might want adjustment every time I switch the wings - not ideal. I have chosen 2 blade because of less resistance in gliding mode, but also because I could save about 8 pounds weight right at the front tip of the aircraft, not making it too nose heavy. Prop and hub come in at 8kg compared to 12 kg - a significant difference. Not much more than the Warp fixed 3 blade! The scimitar blades look beautiful and are very well made. I like their progressive twist towards centre compared to the Warp as the Classic requires cooling close to the hub which will also be positively provided by much broader blade chord in this area. I think it is a nice combination - the top cowling also comes easily off which with 3 blades seems to be more difficult. Why don't you ask the factory for a modification - or upgrade? I have had good experiences with them (not with the Canadian Retailer in B.C., though - but this is another story!). I am attaching the detailed manual. Best, Christoph Both #223 TRI 912S Classic+Glider (Pre-paint stage) Nova Scotia, Canada -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Pattinson Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 11:28 AM Subject: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers Help ! Does anyone amongst the UK Europa fraternity have experience in dealing directly with the Woodcomp factory. I have one of the older Woodcomp propellers that I was hoping to fit to our Europa but the PFA have decreed that it requires a factory modification (or a dispensation from them to do the mod myself). The reason are these blades are capable of going into reverse and the PFA require stops fitting that would prevent this. Conrad Beale was the UK agent but has recently ceased in this role. The new UK agent RotoSport have told me they cant help because they havent got their agency set up yet. Also does anyone have a factory maintenance manual (or experience of assembling and disassembling the hub unit) - as I need to dismantle the hub and am reluctant to do so without proper instructions. My other option is to scrap the existing blades (which are brand new) and order a new set directly from the factory. Carl Pattinson G-LABS _______________________________________ No viruses found in this outgoing message Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.6.4 http://www.iolo.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:26 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers From: "Christoph Both" Thanks for putting the matter back into a proper and appropriate perspective. Christoph -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Pattinson Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 1:16 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers Hello Jos, I was advised that all Woodcomp in flight adjustable propellers are set up so that there is a physical stop which prevents each blade going outside the specified operating range. The hub/ blades are set up at the factory to each individual customer requirement. I understand there is a groove along the circumference of the blade roots and the stops locate within the groove. The length of the groove determines how far the blades can travel. Most Woodcomp setups can only go from coarse to fine pitch because of the length of the groove and consequently there is no risk of the blades travelling outside the operating range. The only Woodcomp props which can go into neutral or reverse are the ones where the customer has specified this (ie: the reverse pitch option). My prop (second hand) is one of the ones that have a longer groove and can currently go past neutral (ie: superfine and reverse). I believe your accident had a bearing on the PFA's decision to ban reverse pitch propellers. My understanding is that no one has identified why these propellers can go into an uncommanded reverse pitch situation and therefore the ban would seem to be a perfectly sensible precaution. As one who speaks from bitter experience I can understand your strong feelings over this matter. Best wishes, Carl. ----- Original Message ----- From: "josok" Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 3:44 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers > > > Hi Carl, > > While i am not in the UK part of the Europa fraternity :-) i still feel i > should respond. First of all, i am happy to hear that the PFA does not > accept the Woodcomp in flight adjustable without modification. It could > have to do with the accident that happened to me, where exactly such a > thing happened. My best advice is to scrap the hub and find another > supplier. It could save your life and possibly others. Sorry for the > outburst, please be assured that it is well ment. > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > _______________________________________ > No viruses found in this incoming message > Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.6.4 > http://www.iolo.com > _______________________________________ No viruses found in this outgoing message Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.6.4 http://www.iolo.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:43 AM PST US From: Paul Stewart Subject: Re: Europa-List: TCU / throttle software Bob From the screen shots of the software in the heavy maintenance manual there appears to be both % power and rpm. Also the signal for my Rotax tacho is an output from the TCU. Paul On 17 Mar 2009, at 21:21, Robert C Harrison wrote: > > > > Hi! Paul >> From my memory the TCU set up procedure handles percentage power >> linked > to throttle position. I don't think the TCU deals with RPM. > This then leaves the pilot to ensure that RPM limitation is secured by > propeller setting. > Certainly my Rotax Tacho isn't linked to anything other than the > engine. > > However my Smart Avionics Propeller Controller gives a power and RPM > read out for the Woodcomp Wobbly Prop > I am however just little perplexed why no one else has replied since > I'm no authority on subject! > Regards > Bob Harrison G-PTAG > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul > Stewart > Sent: 17 March 2009 18:45 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: TCU / throttle software > > > > Just about to set the throttle using Tlr46.exe software. Understand > that this gets done with TCU powered up but engine not running. If I > run the engine will the 'Montor' menu of the software give me a real > time rpm readout? - 'cos still trying to sort out non functioning > tacho. > > Regards > > Paul > G-GIDY > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:44 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers Carl=2C The blades won't move a millimeter unless current is fed to the motor=2C ei ther via a manual switch or by a software switch. Reverse is a crazy option =2C unless the aircraft is an amphibian. And then=2C as far as I know=2C al l certified variable pitch props are hydraulic. I had various problems with my Woodcomp=2C and I don't really trust automat ic pitch control in an electric hub any more=2C with two motor failures. Nowadays I set the pitch to fine before I get into the aircraft for a fligh t. I leave the controller in manual=2C until I have reached a safe altitude =2C and then switch to automatic. Same for landing : I switch to manual whe n I start my descent. You should have no problem getting the hub modified by the factory=2C but s hipping is always the problem. Karl > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers > From: josok-e@ukolo.fi > Date: Wed=2C 18 Mar 2009 17:44:26 +0200 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > > Hi Carl=2C > > While i am not in the UK part of the Europa fraternity :-) i still feel i should respond. First of all=2C i am happy to hear that the PFA does not a ccept the Woodcomp in flight adjustable without modification. It could have to do with the accident that happened to me=2C where exactly such a thing happened. My best advice is to scrap the hub and find another supplier. It could save your life and possibly others. Sorry for the outburst=2C please be assured that it is well ment. > > Regards=2C > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:43 PM PST US From: HANDFORDP@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Trigear Nosewheel damping Simon, Thank you, I need this to make my taxying a little more professional!! Regards Peter ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:41 PM PST US From: glenn crowder Subject: RE: Europa-List: Monowheel outrigger double downlock spring mod Somebody on the forum recommended the MDS legs. They do seem springier=2C maybe just because they're new. I really like the longer length! No recent upgrades to my engine although my engine guy really wants to do a complete roller cam with roller lifters. He says this will add 15 hp and not create any more heat since what we're actually doing is eliminating friction. The rollers allow him to modify the cam profile a bit to take advantage. Will probably go t o the MPFI system at the same time possibly adding 5-10 over my current sin gle point Ellison throttle body system. Wintertime project was to get my dual electrical system installed and worki ng. Springtime project will be to get the exhaust augmentation system going=2C hopefully reducing cooling drag significantly. Attached a pic. Glenn From: fklein@orcasonline.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel outrigger double downlock spring mod On Mar 16=2C 2009=2C at 6:09 PM=2C glenn crowder wrote: No negatives yet and provides a warm and fuzzy feeling on short final that all is well. Hey Glenn...sounds good...I've always been troubled by the eccentric loadin g on the bolt which holds the spring (on the original). I also replaced the original nylon legs with MDS filled nylon legs purchase d from McMaster. I am experimenting with 1/4" longer legs to reduce the rocking even more. Now there is no wing rocking at all until the TW is lif ted and then its only there for a couple seconds before rotation. Much imp roved on landing as well as soon as the main is down=2C the OR wheels are d own as well preventing any side loading or weight transfer from getting sta rted. Now are those "MDS filled" nylon legs a different composition from the orig inals? BTW=2C how many ponies in that Soob of yours at this point? Weren't you bum ping up the hp? 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________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:54 PM PST US From: "ALAN YERLY" Subject: Europa-List: Sun n Fun Attendance Europa folks, Dave Conrad and his wife Sue, will be at Sun 'N Fun Tuesday 21, Wednesday 22, Thursday 23. They are driving down from Cincinnati and staying with relatives. Dave's contact info: Dave Conrad 2753 Eight Mile Road Cincinnati, OH 45244 (513) 474 - 4347 Home (513) 886 - 0481 Cell avi8ordave@yahoo.com Europa XS A-078 Mono-wheel Airplane and Motorglider, Rotax 914 in work. Bud Yerly ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:40:48 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers From: "josok" Just for the record: 1: The blades did not go in reverse but in superfine pitch. 2: This is the first time that a mechanical stop is ever mentioned. Woodcomp certainly never even pointed at the possibility. IMHO, if you power the motor directly, you can spin the blades all around on ANY Woodcomp. Until the motor burns out, which will be very quickly. As far as i know only MT manufactures electrical variable speed propellers with mechanical endstops. 3: The problems i encountered were because of non suitable microswitches, diode and motor. The same hardware can be found in any Woodcomp in flight adjustables, wether those are straight, reverseble or sail. It's everybodies (and in the UK the LAA's) choice of how much risk you want to take. I can imagine it's difficult to scrap something you layed out your money for. I realize it's bad news for many happy pilots. I also would not forgive myself if i would not take this stand. Now everybody may continue to throw stones at the bad news prophet :-) Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:26 PM PST US From: david miller Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers Allow me to add my 2 cents. After electrical and mechanical failures on my woodcomp, and a botched repair job by their Canadian rep, I took my prop out of service. A big write off of dollars, made more painful as I sold my absolutely as new 1967 Triumph Tiger Cub, in order to pay for the prop, Dave A061 On 18-Mar-09, at 3:36 PM, josok wrote: > > Just for the record: 1: The blades did not go in reverse but in > superfine pitch. 2: This is the first time that a mechanical stop > is ever mentioned. Woodcomp certainly never even pointed at the > possibility. IMHO, if you power the motor directly, you can spin > the blades all around on ANY Woodcomp. Until the motor burns out, > which will be very quickly. As far as i know only MT manufactures > electrical variable speed propellers with mechanical endstops. 3: > The problems i encountered were because of non suitable > microswitches, diode and motor. The same hardware can be found in > any Woodcomp in flight adjustables, wether those are straight, > reverseble or sail. > > It's everybodies (and in the UK the LAA's) choice of how much risk > you want to take. I can imagine it's difficult to scrap something > you layed out your money for. I realize it's bad news for many > happy pilots. I also would not forgive myself if i would not take > this stand. Now everybody may continue to throw stones at the bad > news prophet :-) > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:21 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers Hi Josok=2C I am not so sure about what you are saying. When I had early problems=2C I applied a 9V voltage to it directly=2C and the blades stopped at minimum an d maximum pitch automatically. I would have been very concerned=2C if they hadn't. When you say superfine pitch=2C what does that mean ? I assume that the bla des have gone past minimum pitch=2C on their way to reverse=2C because of o verrun=2C and the lack of mechanical stops. I have the feathering option=2C which is handled quite differently=2C and o n a separate circuit. Regards=2C Karl > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers > From: josok-e@ukolo.fi > Date: Wed=2C 18 Mar 2009 22:36:53 +0200 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > > Just for the record: 1: The blades did not go in reverse but in superfine pitch. 2: This is the first time that a mechanical stop is ever mentioned. Woodcomp certainly never even pointed at the possibility. IMHO=2C if you p ower the motor directly=2C you can spin the blades all around on ANY Woodco mp. Until the motor burns out=2C which will be very quickly. As far as i kn ow only MT manufactures electrical variable speed propellers with mechanica l endstops. 3: The problems i encountered were because of non suitable micr oswitches=2C diode and motor. The same hardware can be found in any Woodcom p in flight adjustables=2C wether those are straight=2C reverseble or sail. > > It's everybodies (and in the UK the LAA's) choice of how much risk you wa nt to take. I can imagine it's difficult to scrap something you layed out y our money for. I realize it's bad news for many happy pilots. I also would not forgive myself if i would not take this stand. Now everybody may contin ue to throw stones at the bad news prophet :-) > > Regards=2C > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:21 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers josok wrote: > Just for the record: 1: The blades did not go in reverse but in > superfine pitch. It would be extremely helpful if you describe what exactly happened. > 2: This is the first time that a mechanical stop is > ever mentioned. I red already on the Woodcomp site about the mechanical endstops before your accident. Maybe they changed something after you purchased your prop? > The problems i encountered were because of non suitable > microswitches, diode and motor. Were they from the Woodcomp supplied parts? Or your own, but "similar" to the hardware Woodcomp supplies? > It's everybodies (and in the UK the LAA's) choice of how much risk > you want to take. Flying is a risk. Any addition of functionality (like variable pitch prop) introduces an additional risk factor. Add "reverse", and the risk grows even further. What you don't have can not fail. To assess the risk, I would like to know how many Woodcomp users experienced the same problem. You know, Rotax engines also have failed sometimes, but that doesn't mean that one has to scrap all Rotax engines. An importing thing is to understand what exactly happened so one can avoid it, and that's why I asked my first question: What exactly has happened, and what introduced it? As long as I don't know this, I can only look at the statistics, and see that Woodcomp has not an exceptional high failure rate. -- Best regards, Frans Veldman ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:47 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel outrigger double downlock spring mod glenn crowder wrote: > No recent upgrades to my engine although my engine guy really wants > to do a complete > > roller cam with roller lifters. He says this will add 15 hp and not > create any more heat > > since what we're actually doing is eliminating friction. The rollers > allow him to modify the cam profile a bit to take advantage. If you modify the cam profile, you are not just eliminating friction. You take advantage of the lessened friction to introduce a more aggresive cam profile, so the engine can digest more air and fuel. This addition of more air and fuel will certainly cause more heat. If you burn something, heat will develop. Burn more, and you will get more heat. ;-) Think about this way: If the roller lifters save 15 hp, this means that the old lifters would somehow "consume" 15 hp. 15 hp is a tremendous amount of heat, the lifters would have melted if they were consuming these 15 hp's... So, this was obviously not the case, so these 15 hp's are coming from something else. ;-) -- Frans Veldman ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:59:53 PM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers Jos, Are you stating your theory here or quoting the Austrian AAIB report, and if so where is it published? Incidentally although the SR3000 has double electrical cutout microswitches at each end of its pitch range, the SR200 does have a single electrical system with a mechanical back up system. Regards, David Joyce ( with no problem SR3000!) G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "josok" Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 8:36 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers > > Just for the record: 1: The blades did not go in reverse but in superfine > pitch. 2: This is the first time that a mechanical stop is ever mentioned. > Woodcomp certainly never even pointed at the possibility. IMHO, if you > power the motor directly, you can spin the blades all around on ANY > Woodcomp. Until the motor burns out, which will be very quickly. As far as > i know only MT manufactures electrical variable speed propellers with > mechanical endstops. 3: The problems i encountered were because of non > suitable microswitches, diode and motor. The same hardware can be found in > any Woodcomp in flight adjustables, wether those are straight, reverseble > or sail. > > It's everybodies (and in the UK the LAA's) choice of how much risk you > want to take. I can imagine it's difficult to scrap something you layed > out your money for. I realize it's bad news for many happy pilots. I also > would not forgive myself if i would not take this stand. Now everybody may > continue to throw stones at the bad news prophet :-) > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:31 PM PST US From: "Michael Grass" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers Jos, I am still very sad and sorry about your loss of your plane. You have been a great contributor to the Europa builder community and I do appreciate this a lot. I still try to figure out what exactly could have contributed to your accident. So far the only creditable information what happened came from you and it is consistent. What I believe you stated is: 1. You took of with a high power setting 2. A little later on climb out the engine started to rev up more but you lost forward trust. This, you explained later, was caused by the prop going to super fine mode. This is defiantly something I can not understand what went wrong on the prop side. You pointed towards the limit switches and the diodes. However, I can't understand here the failure mode. I still assume that, at the initial climb out, everything was ok and the blades where somewhere in the middle ( means permissible)operating travel range. This means that all the limit switches had been depressed ( at least the ones from the outer and the middle ring). Now I can go through all combinations of failure modes on the diodes and switches and I can not understand how the DC motor got a command to travel to fine. The worst thing what could have happened is that the switch on the outer ring would have failed to open, which means the prop would have not been able anymore to travel to coarse position but the prop went into fine. Why?? The constant speed controller should have seen a control deviation with the increased motor speed and therefore command to go to course but not to fine. I could see 3 single failure points causing this. 1st failure mode = "loss of feedback" (motor RPM). That could have set the controller to command less pitch (means travel to fine). The loss of feedback could in a somehow failsafe control scheme could have been detected by a dual mean of feedback signal (I doubt that you had this) or (but less reliable) with an control algorithm to detect an impossible amount of change in RPM over a short interval of time. I don't know if any countermeasures are implemented.Do you know? 2nd A short in the driving output transistor or FET. Typically, if a transistor or FET fails, it will short circuit. This means the motor will continuously commanded to go in a specific direction. If that would have happened then only the fine stop switch would have stopped the motor. You also could detect this in your controller and counteract (disable output) with a couple of differently methods. 3rd controller failure. Frozen microprocessor (controller) program. Here would only help redundancy again. All those failure modes are not part of the actual prop but the controlling circuit which did not came from Woodcomp. All those problems could have still potential been taken care of (if you would have had enough time) by a kill switch and transfer to an emergency manual command switch. It is my understanding that you had a 3rd party controller. Did your installation still provided this emergency mode? I could see, only if you had two failures accumulated simultaneously by one of the 3 above failure modes AND the micro switch on the outer ring failed or the motor failed you would not have been able to recover. Another(4th) remote possibility could have been that the DC motor might came completely detached from the 3 worm gears so the prop had no counter force and drifted (freewheeled) towards fine pitch setting. So with all this I would like to ask the question: Do you have a report by an independent person or agency stating what exactly failed or do you know exactly what failed? Best regards Michael Grass (Yes I bought also a Woodcomp and would just like to get a better understanding what went wrong so I can plan accordingly) ----- Original Message ----- From: "josok" Sent: 2009-03-18 16:36 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers > > Just for the record: 1: The blades did not go in reverse but in superfine > pitch. 2: This is the first time that a mechanical stop is ever mentioned. > Woodcomp certainly never even pointed at the possibility. IMHO, if you > power the motor directly, you can spin the blades all around on ANY > Woodcomp. Until the motor burns out, which will be very quickly. As far as > i know only MT manufactures electrical variable speed propellers with > mechanical endstops. 3: The problems i encountered were because of non > suitable microswitches, diode and motor. The same hardware can be found in > any Woodcomp in flight adjustables, wether those are straight, reverseble > or sail. > > It's everybodies (and in the UK the LAA's) choice of how much risk you > want to take. I can imagine it's difficult to scrap something you layed > out your money for. I realize it's bad news for many happy pilots. I also > would not forgive myself if i would not take this stand. Now everybody may > continue to throw stones at the bad news prophet :-) > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:20 PM PST US From: glenn crowder Subject: RE: Europa-List: Monowheel outrigger double downlock spring mod Hi Frans=2C my engine guy has been building racing engines most of his life and has been doing Soob aeroconversions for 6 yrs=2C has his own dyno and seems to know his stuff. I have never heard of an unhappy customer so I tend to believe him when he says a complete roller cam and rockers (not just the rockers) will add 15 hp. 15 hp seems reasonable to me on a 150 hp engine. The camshaft requires a different pro file to work with the roller lifters and lift or duration will not be modified so as to maintain good idle characteristics. It is possible to open and close the valves quicker but o verall duration remains the same. Less friction = less heat or if you look at it another way you can burn less fuel to get the same power so again less heat. Glenn > Date: Wed=2C 18 Mar 2009 22:21:00 +0100 > From: frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel outrigger double downlock spring mod > l> > > glenn crowder wrote: > > No recent upgrades to my engine although my engine guy really wants > > to do a complete > > > > roller cam with roller lifters. He says this will add 15 hp and not > > create any more heat > > > > since what we're actually doing is eliminating friction. The rollers > > allow him to modify the cam profile a bit to take advantage. > > If you modify the cam profile=2C you are not just eliminating friction. > You take advantage of the lessened friction to introduce a more > aggresive cam profile=2C so the engine can digest more air and fuel. This > addition of more air and fuel will certainly cause more heat. If you > burn something=2C heat will develop. Burn more=2C and you will get more > heat. =3B-) > Think about this way: If the roller lifters save 15 hp=2C this means that > the old lifters would somehow "consume" 15 hp. 15 hp is a tremendous > amount of heat=2C the lifters would have melted if they were consuming > these 15 hp's... So=2C this was obviously not the case=2C so these 15 hp' s > are coming from something else. =3B-) > > -- > Frans Veldman > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99 Contacts: Organize your contact list. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com-Blog- cns!503D1D86EBB2B53C!2285.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_UGC_Contacts_032009 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.