Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:11 AM - Re: What magnitometer location have you chosen? (William Harrison)
2. 12:59 AM - European Travel Insurance (Mike Parkin)
3. 02:39 AM - Re: European Travel Insurance (Brian Davies)
4. 02:57 AM - Re: European Travel Insurance (Rowland Carson)
5. 07:24 AM - Re: Re: Fuel sender etc. (Frans Veldman)
6. 08:47 AM - Woodcomp Propellers (David Joyce)
7. 09:41 AM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard)
8. 10:20 AM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (Frans Veldman)
9. 12:29 PM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (josok)
10. 12:29 PM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (John Heykoop)
11. 12:59 PM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (josok)
12. 01:37 PM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (Frans Veldman)
13. 01:54 PM - Re: European Travel Insurance (Mike Parkin)
14. 01:59 PM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (Frans Veldman)
15. 03:00 PM - Europa XS Mono kit A191 for sale..........More details (Europa List)
16. 04:40 PM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
17. 05:12 PM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (Karl Heindl)
18. 05:22 PM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (Karl Heindl)
19. 06:49 PM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
20. 09:28 PM - Re: Woodcomp Propellers (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: What magnitometer location have you chosen? |
Also have Dynon D10 plus remote sensor which is installed in ceiling
panel as far back as rear hinges allow. No disturbance from P1/2
headsets unless occupants are sitting in an "artificial position"
with their heads leant across to the centre line of the a/c when I
get an error of about 1 degree.
That location requires a bulge in the ceiling panel to allow the
magnetometer to be level fore and aft.
A bonus of putting it here is that achieving a level installation in
the roll axis is quite easy to achieve because it is close to the
reference locations on the bottom door sills.
Wherever you put it, it is well worth a very careful compass swing to
calibrate it as well as possible.
Hope that helps.
Willie
On 23 Mar 2009, at 16:39, rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:
> I have a Dynon D10A with remote magnitometer and am looking for a
> location for it.
>
> Last night I borrowed Waynes sailboat compass and placed it on
> ceiling between door hinges. When pilot gets in with headsets on,
> it swings bout 1 degree. When co-pilot gets in with headsets on it
> swings another 2 degrees for atotal of 3 degrees.
>
> What location have you chosen for remote magnitometer?
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | European Travel Insurance |
Can anyone recommend Travel Insurance that specifically covers our specific
risks when flying permit aircraft on the continent.
Regards,
Mike
Message 3
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| Subject: | European Travel Insurance |
My Europa is insured through Traffords Ltd who also offer a private
pilot
travel insurance with worldwide cover for me and wife for =A3160 per
year.
Specifically covers aircrew.
Brian Davies
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin
Sent: 25 March 2009 07:55
Subject: Europa-List: European Travel Insurance
Can anyone recommend Travel Insurance that specifically covers our
specific
risks when flying permit aircraft on the continent.
Regards,
Mike
03/23/09
18:51:00
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: European Travel Insurance |
At 2009-03-25 07:55 +0000 Mike Parkin wrote:
>Can anyone recommend Travel Insurance that specifically covers our
>specific risks when flying permit aircraft on the continent.
Mike - I used On Risk for the Europa Club tour of Ireland last year.
Had no occasion to claim so know nothing of how that might go, but
getting the cover for myself flying as a passenger in a permit
aircraft going out of UK was fairly simple and I did not think it was
expensive. They advertise in the LA magazine, and their website is:
http://www.onrisk.co.uk/
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson http://home.clara.net/rowil/
| <rowil@clara.net> ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel sender etc. |
zwakie wrote:
> (B) Another option would be to install a reed-type float sender (I
> don't want other types), but I am pretty sure I won't be the only one
> not being eager to cut up the headrest et all.
You don't have to cut the headrest for this. In fact, the best place is
between the headrests. I have the materials available if you want to do
this: fold back the upholstery, use a hole-drill to drill a hole next to
the headrest, drill a smaller hole in the tank, via the opening install
a few anchor nuts in the tank (ty them with a small wire to your wrist
so they can't fall accidently into the tank during the installation),
install the fuel sensor, and make a hatch that covers the opening. This
can be done with anchor-nuts and nearly flush AN525 screws as well.
Depending on the fuel sensor, it is possible to cover the opening
without a "bulge". Put your upholstery back, and you won't notice that
anything ever happened there. I can show you how it can be done and
offer some assistance as well.
I think this is a good solution, because it doesn't require any
additional hoses to be installed (saves later maintenance and reduces
leakage risks), and you have an opening in the tank for
inspection/cleaning purposes. (I think that if I bought a used Europa, I
would very much like to inspect the inside of the tank, to be sure that
no sludge/particles has been built up during the previous years. You
don't know what is lurking inside, waiting for a particular brand of
Mogas with ethanol to dissolve and finds its way to the soon to be
blocked fuel filter)
The bad news of course is that you have to drain the tank first, but you
have to do that already for the rest of your fuel plumbing work anyway.
--
Vriendelijke groet,
Frans Veldman
Message 6
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| Subject: | Woodcomp Propellers |
I am slightly reluctant to restart this thread, but Woodcomp have just sent
me a list of comments and corrections to some of the statements produced in
the last two weeks:
1) All Woodcomp VP props have mechanical stops as well as electrical stops.
For normal props these mechanical stops are at the fine & course limits, but
for reversible props a fine limit mechanical stop is not possible. Instead
there is a mechanical stop at the end of the reverse range, and similar
arrangements apply to the feathering prop.
2) The electric motor of the SR3000 is supplied by Bosch and rated at 12
volts
3) The microswitches are manufactured by Matsuschita and are rated at 16
amps and the diodes are rated at 5 amps. The usual working current through
the motor is 4-5amps, but this current only flows through the diodes for
0.2-=0.3 secs
4) The microswitches at the fine pitch stop are connected in series and
activating either one cuts the current through the normal range circuit
operating through the outer and middle rings. They state that the only way
to overwhelm the fine stop system and to proceed to superfine pitch is to
apply a voltage to the reverse system, operating through the outer and inner
pick up rings, and they do not know of any mechanical or electrical failure
in their systems which could cause this.
I have no financial interest in Woodcomp, but as the first person
to get a Woodcomp prop accepted by the PFA, have become someone they talk to
in the UK!
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Woodcomp Propellers |
Thank you very much for the information, David.
Regards Gert
OY-GDS
Den 25/03/2009 kl. 16.41 skrev David Joyce:
> I am slightly reluctant to restart this thread, but Woodcomp have
> just sent me a list of comments and corrections to some of the
> statements produced in the last two weeks:
> 1) All Woodcomp VP props have mechanical stops as well as electrical
> stops. For normal props these mechanical stops are at the fine &
> course limits, but for reversible props a fine limit mechanical stop
> is not possible. Instead there is a mechanical stop at the end of
> the reverse range, and similar arrangements apply to the feathering
> prop.
> 2) The electric motor of the SR3000 is supplied by Bosch and rated
> at 12 volts
> 3) The microswitches are manufactured by Matsuschita and are rated
> at 16 amps and the diodes are rated at 5 amps. The usual working
> current through the motor is 4-5amps, but this current only flows
> through the diodes for 0.2-=0.3 secs
> 4) The microswitches at the fine pitch stop are connected in series
> and activating either one cuts the current through the normal range
> circuit operating through the outer and middle rings. They state
> that the only way to overwhelm the fine stop system and to proceed
> to superfine pitch is to apply a voltage to the reverse system,
> operating through the outer and inner pick up rings, and they do not
> know of any mechanical or electrical failure in their systems which
> could cause this.
> I have no financial interest in Woodcomp, but as the first
> person to get a Woodcomp prop accepted by the PFA, have become
> someone they talk to in the UK!
> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Woodcomp Propellers |
David Joyce wrote:
> I am slightly reluctant to restart this thread, but Woodcomp have just
> sent me a list of comments and corrections to some of the statements
> produced in the last two weeks:
Thanks for your confirmation. It is very much similar to what I
expected. Interesting to see that they came to the same conclusion: the
only thing that could have caused it is a voltage applied to the third
reverse ring.
Something else, I'm hesistating between a 2-blade and 3-blade Woodcomp
3000/W prop.
Main pro's of the 2-blade are the significant weight savings of about
4Kg's (8-9 lbs), and the better cruise parameters (faster). I know that
the climb parameters are slightly less, but I try to optimize for
cruising as I feel that a 914 with intercooler will probably climb fast
enough anyway. For taking off from a short strip I have to land there
first, so if the take-off length is less or equal to the required
landing lenght it is fine by me.
As most folks here are choosing for a 3-blade prop, I'm wondering why
that is? Visiual appearance, or are there things I just didn't see?
I know about this vibration thing, but have confidence that it can be
largely tuned away with balancing the carbs and blades. Many commercial
airplanes with Rotax 914's are flying with 2-blade props, so it is
apparently acceptable to do so.
How much ground clearance is recommended for a tri-gear operating on a
grass strip?
With a nose-wheel mod (thanks Karl!), I will get about 300mm clearance
if I choose for a 1720mm (67.5") prop. I guess this is acceptable?
--
Frans Veldman
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Woodcomp Propellers |
David and All,
Probably i am the only one who has ever opened an SR 3000 hub. There are no mechanical
endstops. Not on the end of any travel movements. Maybe added later, that
i don't know.
The micro switches are not suitable for outdoor use. That point is left out.
The rating of the micro switches, if 16A? is probably for AC. DC ratings are usually
1/4 to 1/3 of that. Left out. Why two in series? Doubt about the quality?
Left out.
If the normal working current range of the motor is 4 A, the stall current, or
startup current, is about 5 times higher. That stall current, startup current
probably is over 20 A for a very short period. Specifications of diodes are for
peak currents too. Peak current, even glitches break semiconductors. So any
time the (fine) endstop micro switches are opened, the reverse current, momentarely
up to 20 A will fry a 5 A diode easily. Left out.
If the diode is short circuited, there is no electrical endstop working. If there
would be a mechanical endstop, the motor could fry because it would be blocked.
Left out.
So David, please ask some more questions? I do very well understand, that you are
not an outsider, as the person who got the first SR 3000 approved by the PFA.
I am not either, so that could balance things out. Your interest seems to
be to flatten issues with the Woodcomp SR3000, mine is to warn about the product,
and maybe save lifes.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Woodcomp Propellers |
Frans
I was told by Andy Draper that I would have to demonstrate compliance with
CS-VLA925 if I wanted to fit a propeller with a diameter of more than 64" to
my Europa XS monowheel.
He said I would have to be able to demonstrate a minimum ground clearance of
230mm, with the aircraft fully loaded, in a level attitude and with a flat
tyre.
I chickened out at that point and bought an Airmaster CS propeller.
John Heykoop
G-JHKP
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 5:00 PM, Frans Veldman <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>wrote:
> >
>
> David Joyce wrote:
> > I am slightly reluctant to restart this thread, but Woodcomp have just
> > sent me a list of comments and corrections to some of the statements
> > produced in the last two weeks:
>
> Thanks for your confirmation. It is very much similar to what I
> expected. Interesting to see that they came to the same conclusion: the
> only thing that could have caused it is a voltage applied to the third
> reverse ring.
>
> Something else, I'm hesistating between a 2-blade and 3-blade Woodcomp
> 3000/W prop.
> Main pro's of the 2-blade are the significant weight savings of about
> 4Kg's (8-9 lbs), and the better cruise parameters (faster). I know that
> the climb parameters are slightly less, but I try to optimize for
> cruising as I feel that a 914 with intercooler will probably climb fast
> enough anyway. For taking off from a short strip I have to land there
> first, so if the take-off length is less or equal to the required
> landing lenght it is fine by me.
> As most folks here are choosing for a 3-blade prop, I'm wondering why
> that is? Visiual appearance, or are there things I just didn't see?
> I know about this vibration thing, but have confidence that it can be
> largely tuned away with balancing the carbs and blades. Many commercial
> airplanes with Rotax 914's are flying with 2-blade props, so it is
> apparently acceptable to do so.
>
> How much ground clearance is recommended for a tri-gear operating on a
> grass strip?
>
> With a nose-wheel mod (thanks Karl!), I will get about 300mm clearance
> if I choose for a 1720mm (67.5") prop. I guess this is acceptable?
>
> --
> Frans Veldman
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Woodcomp Propellers |
Just to bury the 3rd ring-reverse power nonsense once and for all:
If there would have been power on the 3rd ring, the controller, which also was
engaged would have tried to increase pitch. Which would have caused a full short
circuit. With the result that the cb would have cut in at the very same moment.
The pitch would have been reduced, minimally, and i still would have had
a very flyable airplane.
I must admit, that "reverse" error was the first thing that popped up in my head
while still flying the plane, but simple looking at the facts was rejected as
impossible later.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Woodcomp Propellers |
John Heykoop wrote:
> I was told by Andy Draper that I would have to demonstrate compliance with
> CS-VLA925 if I wanted to fit a propeller with a diameter of more than 64" to
> my Europa XS monowheel.
>
> He said I would have to be able to demonstrate a minimum ground clearance of
> 230mm, with the aircraft fully loaded, in a level attitude and with a flat
> tyre.
I don't have to show compliance here, but this requirement is a good
indication. I guess that I will be allright with my 300mm clearance,
with an inflated tyre. Thanks!
--
Frans Veldman
Message 13
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| Subject: | European Travel Insurance |
Brian and Rowland,
Thanks for the information.
Regards,
Mike
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Woodcomp Propellers |
josok wrote:
>
> Just to bury the 3rd ring-reverse power nonsense once and for all: If
> there would have been power on the 3rd ring, the controller, which
> also was engaged would have tried to increase pitch. Which would have
> caused a full short circuit. With the result that the cb would have
> cut in at the very same moment. The pitch would have been reduced,
> minimally, and i still would have had a very flyable airplane.
Unless, of course, a relay, powered by the reverse circuitry,
automatically switched mode as well. ;-)
I can't see what could have happened without a diagram. The 3rd ring
reverse power thing is so far the most reasonable explanation, for the
other things (like failed micro-switches, failed diodes, and more of
that good stuff) you still have the problem that something was putting
out power to the prop, while the RPM was already way above the target
value. True that a failed micro switch or diode can allow this to
happen, but they can not cause this to happen, they can not put power on
the system by themselves, unless something is putting out power to them.
In the scenario of failed switches you also have to bring in a failed
controller at the same time, still providing power while the prop was
already over the limit. You can't get rid of this multiple-failure
scenario, and that is, like we all know, a scenario which is the least
unlikely. At least, this would imply that Smart Avionics is as "guilty"
as Woodcomp, and failed at the same time as the micro-switches. I
haven't heard you about Smart Avionics yet.
About the lack of mechanical endstops, someone has sent pictures of the
inside of the Woodcomp propeller, with the mechanical endstops clearly
visible.
But true, if the prop has to be able to go to reverse, you can't have
the endstops.
You'd better warn people not to install reverse systems.
Look here, I can understand that this is a sensitive topic for you. But
I guess the reason of this discussion is and remains to find out whether
the failure occured can happen to anyone because it is a design flaw, or
that it most likely happend by a combination (perhaps) of a failure in a
home brew safety bypass system and the fact that the propeller system
was able to go to fine pitch anyway because of the reverse option.
With other words: without reverse, Woodcomp's are safe propellers.
--
Frans Veldman
Message 15
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| Subject: | Europa XS Mono kit A191 for sale..........More details |
Due to finantial pressures, I have decided to sell my Europa XS
mono-wheel kit A191. It would include a Rotax 914 firewall forward kit
and TruTrak 2 1/4" pictorial pilot with servo installed in the airframe.
Chapters 1 thru 22 and 26 thru 29 are completed with a few action items
noted in my build log. These are items that need to be done after the
top is on. There are a few small items left to do before bonding the
top, unless you like working in uncomfortable positions. All mandatory
mods are complete except Mod 73.
Also available are a GRT dual screen EFIS with GPS, Garmin SL-30
Nav/Com, Garmin GTX-327 transponder, PMA 800B audio panel, Ak450
emergency locator and aluminum insrument panel blanks. I have not wired
any of these, but the EFIS comes with a wiring harness.
In addition, I have a ULPower UL260i engine. If you're interested, I can
reply with more details on this forum or privately, by phone or email.
I would like to get near the cost of my materials from the sale. I have
receipts for all materials and we can talk about how close I can get to
those numbers. None of my labor or interest charges will be applied to
the cost.
I am located in Bristol, Virginia
Vaughn Teegarden
276-466-2193
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Woodcomp Propellers |
All this talk about propellors reversing.
I fly a fairly high
performance modelflying wing glider I slope with. When it is
soarable it is very hard to land because when you dive you gain tremendous
speed.
I fitted a small electric motor with a folding
prop and a car speed controller that is reversable.
On a
flying wing almost anything you do to drag things up changes pitch, that
is except putting motor into reverse. Boy does that drag things up.
A nagging question I have had with flying with a reversable prop
was would it not be prudent to go up to altitude and fool with putting it
into reverse and also very fine flat pitch to recognize reaction of
aeroplane, and if it were to occur uncommanded, turn off motor which would
turn you into a reasonable glider instead of a lead sled?
My
DAR was test flying a RV, and throttle stuck at 1600 RPM on crosswind, he
ate up half the runway when it became apparent had he shut off motor right
away, landing would have been uneventful instead of crash.
Just
another story, I was talking with a high time instructor who was giving a
student last flight before IFR checkride. Motor at a few hundred feet with
plenty of runway ahead, but plane stalled and spun in? Ended up crank
broke right behind main bearing and prop began to freewheel. He said he
was pointing down much steepier than normal but plane stalled because of
horendous drag created by big disc up front.
For those who have
not first hand experiance, next time you get hold of a pinwheel, hold it
out car window at 30mph with pinwheel held captive. Not too much drag. Let
it spin up--- WOW an amazing amount of drag. Prop going into reverse is
not much worst than freewheeling prop BTW
Ron
Parigoris
Message 17
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| Subject: | Woodcomp Propellers |
Ron=2C
If that is so=2C would you agree that a feathering option just for such an
emergency would be a good idea ? I understand that the gliding distance is
greatly increased.
Karl
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers
From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us
All this talk about propellors reversing.
I fly a fairly high performance model flying wing glider I slope with. When
it is soarable it is very hard to land because when you dive you gain trem
endous speed.
I fitted a small electric motor with a folding prop and a car speed control
ler that is reversable.
On a flying wing almost anything you do to drag things up changes pitch=2C
that is except putting motor into reverse. Boy does that drag things up.
A nagging question I have had with flying with a reversable prop was would
it not be prudent to go up to altitude and fool with putting it into revers
e and also very fine flat pitch to recognize reaction of aeroplane=2C and i
f it were to occur uncommanded=2C turn off motor which would turn you into
a reasonable glider instead of a lead sled?
My DAR was test flying a RV=2C and throttle stuck at 1600 RPM on crosswind
=2C he ate up half the runway when it became apparent had he shut off motor
right away=2C landing would have been uneventful instead of crash.
Just another story=2C I was talking with a high time instructor who was giv
ing a student last flight before IFR checkride. Motor at a few hundred feet
with plenty of runway ahead=2C but plane stalled and spun in? Ended up cra
nk broke right behind main bearing and prop began to freewheel. He said he
was pointing down much steepier than normal but plane stalled because of ho
rendous drag created by big disc up front.
For those who have not first hand experiance=2C next time you get hold of a
pinwheel=2C hold it out car window at 30mph with pinwheel held captive. No
t too much drag. Let it spin up--- WOW an amazing amount of drag. Prop goin
g into reverse is not much worst than freewheeling prop BTW
Ron Parigoris
Message 18
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| Subject: | Woodcomp Propellers |
Josok=2C
It may be that not all Woodcomps meet the same safety specs and quality con
trol. Yours didn't have end switches. Is it not possible to confirm this fr
om the wreck ?
Dave Miller had endless problems with his SR2000=2C paid a fortune in shipp
ing and 'repair' costs=2C and ended up throwing it away. Support was hopele
ss.
Can anyone xplain why two motors failed after a few hours=2C or can anyone
tell me what the rpm limit is for these motors=2C which are stamped with th
e name Johnson ?
Karl
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp Propellers
> From: josok-e@ukolo.fi
> Date: Wed=2C 25 Mar 2009 21:45:08 +0200
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Just to bury the 3rd ring-reverse power nonsense once and for all:
> If there would have been power on the 3rd ring=2C the controller=2C which
also was engaged would have tried to increase pitch. Which would have caus
ed a full short circuit. With the result that the cb would have cut in at t
he very same moment. The pitch would have been reduced=2C minimally=2C and
i still would have had a very flyable airplane.
>
> I must admit=2C that "reverse" error was the first thing that popped up i
n my head while still flying the plane=2C but simple looking at the facts w
as rejected as impossible later.
>
> Regards=2C
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
>
>
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===========
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>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Woodcomp Propellers |
Hi Karl
In a failure mode where prop stuck itself in fine or
reverse, a feathering feature would do you no good at all, the prop is
stuck.
If your engine quits, stopping prop helps to extend
glide and feathering prop helps even more to extend glide.
Ron
Parigoris
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Woodcomp Propellers |
Could someone with a wiring diagram for the hub and controller please supply
it to the list so those with the knowledge could look at it and make some
educated remarks? I think that a person's preference for a particular product
should stand up to scrutiny by their fellow builders/flyers. Make a list of the
pros and cons so that everyone can decide what points are relevant to them
in particular. By everyone keeping a thick skin and not taking personal
affronts towards questions, comments, and points of view, we, as a group, can
help
the whole make a damned good decision.
Do Not Archive.
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300A
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop
**************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or
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