Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:34 AM - Battery capacity (Frans Veldman)
2. 04:03 AM - Re: Battery capacity (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
3. 04:09 AM - Re: Battery capacity (Robert C Harrison)
4. 05:08 AM - Re: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question (Jim Brown)
5. 06:12 AM - Re: Battery capacity (David Joyce)
6. 06:43 AM - Re: Battery capacity (Frans Veldman)
7. 08:17 AM - Tank size (Choperpaul)
8. 08:34 AM - Re: Battery capacity (Frans Veldman)
9. 08:35 AM - Re: Battery capacity (Kevin Klinefelter)
10. 08:56 AM - Re: Battery capacity (rparigoris)
11. 09:12 AM - Re: Battery capacity (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
12. 09:19 AM - Re: Battery capacity (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
13. 09:32 AM - Re: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question (Mike Parkin)
14. 09:59 AM - Re: Battery capacity (Frans Veldman)
15. 10:19 AM - Re: Battery capacity (Terry Seaver (terrys))
16. 10:32 AM - Re: Battery capacity (Christoph Both)
17. 10:38 AM - Re: Battery capacity (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
18. 10:47 AM - Re: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question (Terry Seaver (terrys))
19. 10:49 AM - Re: Battery capacity (Frans Veldman)
20. 11:06 AM - Re: Battery capacity (Frans Veldman)
21. 11:24 AM - Re: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question (Mike Parkin)
22. 11:24 AM - Re: Battery capacity (Frans Veldman)
23. 11:29 AM - Re: Battery capacity (Frans Veldman)
24. 12:06 PM - Re: Battery capacity (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
25. 12:06 PM - SnF Engineering Meeting (rampil)
26. 02:10 PM - Re: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question (Terry Seaver (terrys))
27. 02:11 PM - Re: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question (Terry Seaver (terrys))
28. 02:37 PM - Farewell to N914PB (Paul Boulet)
29. 02:54 PM - Re: Battery capacity (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
30. 03:40 PM - Re: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question (Robert C Harrison)
31. 03:48 PM - Re: Battery capacity (Frans Veldman)
32. 03:53 PM - Re: SnF Engineering Meeting (Jeff B)
33. 05:56 PM - Re: SnF Engineering Meeting (jimpuglise@comcast.net)
34. 08:32 PM - Re: Farewell to N914PB (danbish)
35. 08:32 PM - Reamer available in "Free to a good home" (danbish)
36. 11:03 PM - Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
37. 11:07 PM - Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
38. 11:11 PM - Re: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question (Mike Parkin)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Battery capacity |
Hi,
The Europa build manual states that for the Rotax engine, a battery of
16 Ah is recommended.
I have been thinking about this, and would like to share my thoughts.
1) For cranking power, the battery Amp-hours is a vague indicator, but
nothing more than that. A battery of 5 Ah could well be able to deliver
more amp's for starting than a certain 16 Ah battery. The Amp hours tell
you something about the total energy conserved in the battery, nothing
more. Just like the amount of fuel in your tank doesn't say much about
the power of the engine (but one could state that a small tank is
somewhat indicative of a small engine). If the battery has enough Amps
to crank the engine, the amount of Amp hours indicates how long and how
often one can run the starter before the engine starts.
2) The battery capacity usually allows for "starting problems", i.e. to
flood your engine, crank it dry, try again, etc, switch it off again at
the fuel station, start again after refueling with the same problems, do
some trouble shooting, etc.
3) In a usual setup the function of the battery is twofold: Producing
power to start the engine, and providing emergency power when the
alternator fails. In a dual alternator setup however, the second
function of the battery is not necessary. (OK, during an engine failure
when both alternators stop, the battery still has to provide power, but
this situation usually doesn't last for very long and even a small
battery is sufficient to issue a mayday call, to deploy the flaps, and
play your favorite song on the panel mounted CD player.).
4) With a 16 Ah battery, one should assume that it is possible to start
the engine with the last few Amp-hours left (the capacity is there to be
used, otherwise one could do with a smaller battery anyway), so it is
feasable one starts the trip with an almost depleted battery. The
alternator is then supposed to recharge the battery during the trip.
Now, we all know about the fabulous power output of the Rotax
alternator. To top off a 16 Ah battery, you need to charge the battery
for 1 hour with 16 Amp's. Or for 2 hours with 8 Amp's (100% efficiency
unrealistically assumed). But the Rotax alternator has just enough power
to keep the avionics powered in a typical setup, with only very few
Amp's to spare to charge the battery. With other words, a 16 Ah battery
will probably never get properly charged again once it's capacity has
been put to use (unless using a mains connected charger on the ground).
I have a setup with dual alternators, and dual batteries. Idea behind
this is to be able to fully deplete one battery during glider activities
(future MG), while still keeping a not used battery for restarting at
hand. And of course to have full redundancy, with a fuel pump on each
bus, a navigational instrument on each bus, etc, and to be able to keep
flying even after a total failure of one bus.
Why am I telling all this:
The battery capacity.
I plan to use one 5 Ah battery on each bus, nothing more... These babies
are able to produce 250 Amp's momentarily each, while the Rotax starter
needs 60 Amp's to crank the engine.
I plan to start on just one bus (so just one battery), and one battery
should be sufficient to start and even allow for a few failed attempts.
And then if all fails, there is yet another battery.
When an alternator fails during flight, I always have another alternator
to power the essentials and keep the airplane flying as long as the fuel
allows. The "dead" bus still has a small battery to power a secondary
fuel pump for about one hour, in case there are multiple failures.
The advantage of this minimalistic battery setup is of course the
weight: a total of just under 4 kilo's, (8.8 lbs), for both batteries
together. As a typical 16Ah battery weighs in at more than the double
amount, so this setup more than compensates for the weight of the
secondary alternator.
For less weight, more juice during flight, more redundancy, etc.
It just sounds to good to be true. Hence my suspicion:
Any comments on my reasoning?
Is my assumption that the Rotax usually starts within 10 seconds acceptable?
Has any of you ever depleted a 16 Ah battery during starting?
If so, how many start attempts did you get out of this 16 Ah battery?
And did you get this 16 Ah battery recharged again with just the Rotax
alternator?
Has anyone else experience with a "minimalistic battery setup"?
--
Frans Veldman
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity |
Hi Frans
I just completed battery selection and install on 914 XS mono with both
sets of wings.
I contenplated various configurations, included
was using only 1Odyssey PC310 or Ultrastart Red with my suplimental
2.2 amp battery, or one of each 310 and Ultrastart.
I am am
electric model aeroplane guy and am not unfamiliar with pushing battery
capacity to limits.
A few comments:
****I talked to the
guy markets the Ultrastart andthe 13. The 13is just a PC545
with another nametag.Folk who sell them (13) have details that are
different than PC545, what else is new, asales brochure that is less
than accurate. I went with a PC545 with no metal jacket and a 2.2 amp
supplimental with ability to use any size batteryI want by plugging
into Sermos (AndersonPower Pole) connectors. Good chance I will make
model packs at precise voltage I need for Europa!
****You are quoting
sales brochure numbers that sound good.
"I plan to use one 5 Ah
battery on each bus, nothing more... These babies
> are able to
produce 250 Amp's momentarily each"
My question is at what
voltage? Also another question is what is service life using this battery
at a 50 plus amp draw for starting? Will such abuse cause a internal open
failure? Is it worth the added complexity to parallel for starting? If
your motor doesn't start in 5 seconds, what will the voltage be next
attempt?
****Are you happy using the very small terminals on Red?
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/atphighpwr.php
Or small terminals on PC310? (better than the Ultrastart)
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc310.htm
If you were to use 2 batteriesI would devise a plan to use
both for starting. A sales brochure may say 5 amps, butI can almost
with a shadow of doubt state that on a colder day asking starting amp draw
you are not going to get anywhere near 5 amp capacity! Ask your one
remaining untouched battery after soaring to start up a now cold engine
(with cold oil) when it is cold and you may be surprised to find that it
will not crank as fast as you would like (low voltage).
I can
spout that my 2.2 amp hour battery can dump over 150 amps for short times
(which it can) but only for a limited number of times, at a much reduced
voltage and much reduced capacity. It is very happy to dump dump 5C though
many many times.
Bill Dube used to subscribe to Aeroelectric
and races a 0 to 60 in under 1 second electric motorcycle. He uses A123
cells and loves them. He was offering a A123 pack for aeroplane use for a
while (charging circuit that was aeroplane happy). Now that may be worth
considering in addition to a PC310, or have him make you a second battery
with half the number of paralleled cells.
I went witha PC545,
since it is mounted aft thus no need for metal jacket, aluminium #4 wires
with copper clad and a second total loss 2.2 amp battery with ability to
take along any size total loss battery to suit mission. I have a vacuum
pad mounted SD20S with LR3C from B+C.
BTW in under 10
secondsI can turn off main battery with a Flaming River race car
switch and run pump #2 direct off of total loss battery.
I have
details:
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album258&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
on Odyssey batteries:
Album: High amp "light" batteries, high amp
"light" fat wires, high and low amp "very" thin wires,
integral high amp bypass/buss as light as you can get with low resistance.
Y9-01-01
Last change: 04/01/09
Contains: 80 items
Viewed: 622 times.
and total loss battery:
Album: Passenger headrest to get Flaming River race car battery
switch, 9 breakers on back and plenty of electrical "stuff"
inside. Y8-12-09
Last change: 03/15/09
Contains: 45 items
Viewed: 375 times.
Good luck
Ron Parigoris
In your case if you
absolute want 2 batteries, consider the PC310s instead. Make up some of
the weight difference with aluminium wire.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Battery capacity |
Hi!Frans
With the 6 cylinder Jabiru I needed 2x 13amp hour "starting" batteries
Oddessy or Red Top wired in parallel. The starter on it was likely to
pull momentarily in excess of 100 amps. I now have the Rotax 914 with
two replacement batteries (the others were 9 years old and showed NO
signs of distress) and the heavy duty starter just needs a stab on the
button and the engine is away, no clunking and wings flapping as the
usual scenario!
The point being that the word is STARTER battery ....one that can
release instant massive power. Don't get just bog standard batteries get
STARTER Battery's
It is quite possible with the battery location being on the passenger
foot well that one of these would do the job but why be on a song and a
prayer?
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans
Veldman
Sent: 01 April 2009 10:32
Subject: Europa-List: Battery capacity
<frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Hi,
The Europa build manual states that for the Rotax engine, a battery of
16 Ah is recommended.
Message 4
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| Subject: | 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question |
I am from the school of thought, that if the engine needs something to func
tion (ie wastgate servo) that it needs to be where it can be checked, as ne
eded, replaced if necessary, without having to access it from behind the pa
nel.
=C2-
I installed the servo on the top of the=C2-passenger side of the footwell
.. We have 800 hours on this installation, and at this point in time there h
ave been no problems. I am able to system check the servo each time I have
the cowling off. When and if I need to work on, or replace the servo or cab
le it will just a matter of removing the cowl.
=C2-
Just my two cents worth, no slam intended.
=C2-
Jim Brown
--- On Tue, 3/31/09, Rob Housman <rob@hyperion-ef.com> wrote:
From: Rob Housman <rob@hyperion-ef.com>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question
There is room, just barely, for the waste gate servo to mount on the cabin
side of the firewall =93 see the attached photo.=C2- In this somewh
at (OK, more than somewhat) cluttered image, the servo is just to the left
of the SCAT tube.=C2- Note the black outline drawn on the firewall to ind
icate the instrument panel molding features.=C2- The red tape on the serv
o is holding some loose components in place.
=C2-
In order to facilitate this mounting location I fabricated an aluminum brac
ket; the plan view is shown in the attached pdf file.=C2- The bracket was
made from a piece of aluminum channel (with one leg removed) since an appr
opriate angle 90 degree shape was not conveniently available.=C2- Other s
tock would also be suitable.
=C2-
=C2-
Best regards,
=C2-
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
=C2-
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:44 PM
Subject: Europa-List: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question
=C2-
Hi All,
I am attempting to "shoe horn" in a second Grand Rapids EFIS screen into my
panel which is turning into an mechanical challenge.=C2- It is pretty mu
ch looking like I am going to have to move it to the outside of the firewal
l.=C2- I know a few folks have done this and provided cooling with a blas
t tube.=C2- I was wondering if anyone had some photographs and best pract
ices to share.
Thanks,=C2- Paul =C2- =C2-http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-L
isthttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution =C2-
=0A=0A=0A
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity |
Frans, A single Odyssey 16 amp/hour battery has done me extremely well for 6
years, without ever blinking. It also had ample in reserve when I had
regulator failure and stopped charging 1/2 way between Ostend and the Essex
coast. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ, 914
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frans Veldman" <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 10:31 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Battery capacity
> <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
>
> Hi,
>
> The Europa build manual states that for the Rotax engine, a battery of
> 16 Ah is recommended.
>
> I have been thinking about this, and would like to share my thoughts.
>
> 1) For cranking power, the battery Amp-hours is a vague indicator, but
> nothing more than that. A battery of 5 Ah could well be able to deliver
> more amp's for starting than a certain 16 Ah battery. The Amp hours tell
> you something about the total energy conserved in the battery, nothing
> more. Just like the amount of fuel in your tank doesn't say much about
> the power of the engine (but one could state that a small tank is
> somewhat indicative of a small engine). If the battery has enough Amps
> to crank the engine, the amount of Amp hours indicates how long and how
> often one can run the starter before the engine starts.
> 2) The battery capacity usually allows for "starting problems", i.e. to
> flood your engine, crank it dry, try again, etc, switch it off again at
> the fuel station, start again after refueling with the same problems, do
> some trouble shooting, etc.
> 3) In a usual setup the function of the battery is twofold: Producing
> power to start the engine, and providing emergency power when the
> alternator fails. In a dual alternator setup however, the second
> function of the battery is not necessary. (OK, during an engine failure
> when both alternators stop, the battery still has to provide power, but
> this situation usually doesn't last for very long and even a small
> battery is sufficient to issue a mayday call, to deploy the flaps, and
> play your favorite song on the panel mounted CD player.).
> 4) With a 16 Ah battery, one should assume that it is possible to start
> the engine with the last few Amp-hours left (the capacity is there to be
> used, otherwise one could do with a smaller battery anyway), so it is
> feasable one starts the trip with an almost depleted battery. The
> alternator is then supposed to recharge the battery during the trip.
> Now, we all know about the fabulous power output of the Rotax
> alternator. To top off a 16 Ah battery, you need to charge the battery
> for 1 hour with 16 Amp's. Or for 2 hours with 8 Amp's (100% efficiency
> unrealistically assumed). But the Rotax alternator has just enough power
> to keep the avionics powered in a typical setup, with only very few
> Amp's to spare to charge the battery. With other words, a 16 Ah battery
> will probably never get properly charged again once it's capacity has
> been put to use (unless using a mains connected charger on the ground).
>
> I have a setup with dual alternators, and dual batteries. Idea behind
> this is to be able to fully deplete one battery during glider activities
> (future MG), while still keeping a not used battery for restarting at
> hand. And of course to have full redundancy, with a fuel pump on each
> bus, a navigational instrument on each bus, etc, and to be able to keep
> flying even after a total failure of one bus.
>
> Why am I telling all this:
> The battery capacity.
> I plan to use one 5 Ah battery on each bus, nothing more... These babies
> are able to produce 250 Amp's momentarily each, while the Rotax starter
> needs 60 Amp's to crank the engine.
> I plan to start on just one bus (so just one battery), and one battery
> should be sufficient to start and even allow for a few failed attempts.
> And then if all fails, there is yet another battery.
> When an alternator fails during flight, I always have another alternator
> to power the essentials and keep the airplane flying as long as the fuel
> allows. The "dead" bus still has a small battery to power a secondary
> fuel pump for about one hour, in case there are multiple failures.
>
> The advantage of this minimalistic battery setup is of course the
> weight: a total of just under 4 kilo's, (8.8 lbs), for both batteries
> together. As a typical 16Ah battery weighs in at more than the double
> amount, so this setup more than compensates for the weight of the
> secondary alternator.
>
> For less weight, more juice during flight, more redundancy, etc.
> It just sounds to good to be true. Hence my suspicion:
>
> Any comments on my reasoning?
> Is my assumption that the Rotax usually starts within 10 seconds
> acceptable?
> Has any of you ever depleted a 16 Ah battery during starting?
> If so, how many start attempts did you get out of this 16 Ah battery?
> And did you get this 16 Ah battery recharged again with just the Rotax
> alternator?
>
> Has anyone else experience with a "minimalistic battery setup"?
>
> --
> Frans Veldman
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity |
David Joyce wrote:
> Frans, A single Odyssey 16 amp/hour battery has done me extremely well
I have no doubt about this, but I'm looking for a way to save some
unneccesary weight. 16 amp/hour appears a little bit "overdone" for me
if one has two alternators on board. (I need two alternators anyway
because the Rotax alternator/Ducati regulator will not reliably deliver
enough power for my setup, so it is sort of logical to extend this
proposition further into two fully separate buses for extra redundancy).
Also, because I have two fully separate electrical busses, I will need
two batteries as well, and carrying two 16 amp/hour batteries is really
out of the question. ;-)
A nice alternative could be two PC310 Odyssey batteries (each 8
amp/hours) (thanks, Ron). This will give me 16 amp/hours in total as
well, but divided over two fully separate systems. But without weight
savings. :-(
--
Frans Veldman
Message 7
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Hi All, anyone tell me the tank size on a classic and the reserve please?
Thanks :?:
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity |
Hi Ron,
> http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc310.htm
Ok, I think I will go with 2 PC310's.
> I went witha PC545, since it is mounted aft thus no need for metal
> jacket, aluminium #4 wires with copper clad and a second total loss 2.2
About the aluminium #4 wire:
I did some calculations. Aluminium offers little advantage over copper.
The sales brochure will try to let you believe something else.
The error is that they compare #4 alu wire with #4 copper wire. This
saves 45% of weight indeed. What they don't tell you (it is also
forgotten in their data sheets) is that the conductivity of aluminium is
less. #4 alu wire has even less conductivity than #6 copper wire. And #6
copper wire weighs a lot less than #4 copper wire which they used for
comparison. Now do the comparison again... leave the math to you. ;-)
What is the weight saved?
I will use #6 copper wire. This will give me a voltage drop of 0.5 Volts
with batteries in bagage bay (guestimated a 9 ft back and forth). Your
thicker aluminium #4 wire will give a loss of 0.7 Volts....
Just found an online-calculator for this:
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm near the bottom of the page.
Have fun! ;-)
--
Frans Veldman
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity |
I went with one PC680 and two alternators, and two busses including an
e-buss alternate feed path. I don't think you could run down the 17 ah batt
during a days soaring such that it would not crank the engine, unless you
run lights and everything while soaring.
I keep the battery in great shape by plugging into a maintainer in the
hanger, and changing the battery for a new one every two years. The used
battery goes into my subaru car for the next two years.
I also used the CCA fat (#4)wires to the rear mounted batt. to save some
weight.
Kevin
so far only short wings
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frans Veldman" <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Battery capacity
> <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
>
> David Joyce wrote:
>> Frans, A single Odyssey 16 amp/hour battery has done me extremely well
>
> I have no doubt about this, but I'm looking for a way to save some
> unneccesary weight. 16 amp/hour appears a little bit "overdone" for me
> if one has two alternators on board. (I need two alternators anyway
> because the Rotax alternator/Ducati regulator will not reliably deliver
> enough power for my setup, so it is sort of logical to extend this
> proposition further into two fully separate buses for extra redundancy).
> Also, because I have two fully separate electrical busses, I will need
> two batteries as well, and carrying two 16 amp/hour batteries is really
> out of the question. ;-)
>
> A nice alternative could be two PC310 Odyssey batteries (each 8
> amp/hours) (thanks, Ron). This will give me 16 amp/hours in total as
> well, but divided over two fully separate systems. But without weight
> savings. :-(
>
> --
> Frans Veldman
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity |
Hi Kevin
"I also used the CCA fat (#4)wires to the rear mounted batt. to save some weight."
Did you crimp and solder terminals, or just crimp?
The CCA strands work harden very easily. Can you explain (perhaps a pix) of how
you routed and strain relieved the connection to battery to avoid fatigue and
breakage?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity |
Hi Frans
"> About the aluminium #4 wire:
> I did some
calculations. Aluminium offers little advantage over copper.
>
The sales brochure will try to let you believe something else.
>
The error is that they compare #4 alu wire with #4 copper wire. This
> saves 45% of weight indeed. What they don't tell you (it is also
> forgotten in their data sheets) is that the conductivity of
aluminium is
> less. #4 alu wire has even less conductivity than
#6 copper wire. And #6
> copper wire weighs a lot less than #4
copper wire which they used for
> comparison. Now do the
comparison again... leave the math to you. ;-)
> What is the
weight saved? "
Your math is fuzzy.
Eric Jones
does in fact speak all about the fact that resistance of #4 CCA has same
resistance as #4 Tefzel:
http://www.periheliondesign.com./fatwires_files/Copper%20cables.pdf
also read install manual.
I saved a pound:
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album266&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php&page=1
#6 wire especially with an aft battery will be marginal at best.
Your .5 volt drop may be running the panel but when you crank 50 plus amps
it will be far greater. If you want reliable starts ona cold engine
best go minimum of #4.
That said I was thinking pretty
hard about using #5 CCA. Eric sells Teflon covered CCA. I purchased the
yellow cover CCA. If you were to strip the covering off #4 CCA, you could
easily unwind and make a #5 wire, then heat shrink on some Teflon heat
shrink tube!
Another reason I like the aluminium wire is
although itsaves a pound, it moves CG a bit more forward.
Redo your math.
Ron Parigoris
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity |
Oooooppps
"> Another reason I like the aluminium wire
is
> although itsaves a pound, it moves CG a bit more
forward."
Meant to say it moves CG more aft (takes some
weight forward of CG).
Ron Parigoris
Message 13
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| Subject: | 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question |
I do not have the "gills" open (left them closed since it has been
established that they were a development item providing little cooling
benefit on shut down(positioned too low) and are now a "leftover" item.)
Regards
Bob Harrison.G-PTAG
Bob,
That statement is just not correct. In flight, there is a noticeable flow
of hot air from the gills - obviously aiding the flow of cooling air across
the cylinders. Perhaps that is why you have had cooling issues on Jabiru
and Rotax.
Regards,
Mike
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity |
rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:
> Your math is fuzzy.
Well, show me a better math then.
> Eric Jones does in fact speak all about the fact that resistance of #4
Eric Jones is the guy that sells the stuff, and ommitted the
ohms-per-feet figures in the pdf... He compares cables with the same
diameter, doesn't talk about voltage drop, while the interesting thing
is to compare two cables with the same voltage drop (over the same
length and with equal amount of amperes) and THEN do the weighing.
> I saved a pound:
No, you didn't. At least not if you compare it with copper wire with the
SAME RESISTANCE as your CCA wire (instead of the same diameter).
Hey, I know a great way to save even more weight: Buy my special teflon
#4 cable, absolutely metal-free! It weighs 5% of the copper cable with
the same diameter! Now that's a real bargain! ;-)
> #6 wire especially with an aft battery will be marginal at best. Your .5
> volt drop may be running the panel but when you crank 50 plus amps it
> will be far greater.
Well, #6 copper wire has a lower voltage drop than your #4 CCA wire. If
#6 wire is marginal, #4 CCA wire is sub-marginal. ;-)
> Redo your math.
Now show me the ohms-per-feet of copper, and the ohms-per-feet of
aluminium. Then we can do a trivial calculation, where we compare the
weight of aluminium and copper WITH THE SAME VOLTAGE DROP (which is
entirely different than the comparison of two cables of equal diameter.
;-) )
Granted, there is a little weight saved, but it is nowhere near 45% as
they claimed.
--
Frans Veldman
Message 15
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| Subject: | Battery capacity |
We chose a 25 Amp hr battery with the assumption that we would
eventually build long wings for our Europa (which we eventually did) and
that we would need plenty of battery capacity to run various avionics
for several hours with the engine off. We have since flown with the
engine off for about an hour max, and had the voltage to the instruments
drop to the point where they started dropping out (we were consuming
about 2.5 amps). Our problem is that there are small voltage drop at
many locations that can add up to as much as 2 volts. So when the
battery drops to 12.0 volts, the instruments see 10.0 V, and have
problems operating there. We have spent some time looking for the
voltage drops. They come from each connection (spade lugs, etc.), each
switch, and each circuit breaker. The biggest drops are in the
individual circuit breakers in the switch panel we bought from Aircraft
Spruce. We have reduced some of the drops by coating connections with
silver grease, but have not come up with a good solution for the drops
in the circuit breakers.
We have since swapped out the 25 Ahr battery for a 16 Ahr battery, to
save a little weight.
As far as charging the battery, we have only the stock alternator, which
has no trouble keeping the battery charged. We were very careful to
keep our power consumption low, using a mechanical master contactor
(saves 1 Amp), low power strobes (4A vs 7A), LED Nav lights, lower power
radio and xponder, etc.
Regards,
Terry Seaver
A135 / N135TD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans
Veldman
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 2:32 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Battery capacity
<frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Hi,
The Europa build manual states that for the Rotax engine, a battery of
16 Ah is recommended.
I have been thinking about this, and would like to share my thoughts.
1) For cranking power, the battery Amp-hours is a vague indicator, but
nothing more than that. A battery of 5 Ah could well be able to deliver
more amp's for starting than a certain 16 Ah battery. The Amp hours tell
you something about the total energy conserved in the battery, nothing
more. Just like the amount of fuel in your tank doesn't say much about
the power of the engine (but one could state that a small tank is
somewhat indicative of a small engine). If the battery has enough Amps
to crank the engine, the amount of Amp hours indicates how long and how
often one can run the starter before the engine starts.
2) The battery capacity usually allows for "starting problems", i.e. to
flood your engine, crank it dry, try again, etc, switch it off again at
the fuel station, start again after refueling with the same problems, do
some trouble shooting, etc.
3) In a usual setup the function of the battery is twofold: Producing
power to start the engine, and providing emergency power when the
alternator fails. In a dual alternator setup however, the second
function of the battery is not necessary. (OK, during an engine failure
when both alternators stop, the battery still has to provide power, but
this situation usually doesn't last for very long and even a small
battery is sufficient to issue a mayday call, to deploy the flaps, and
play your favorite song on the panel mounted CD player.).
4) With a 16 Ah battery, one should assume that it is possible to start
the engine with the last few Amp-hours left (the capacity is there to be
used, otherwise one could do with a smaller battery anyway), so it is
feasable one starts the trip with an almost depleted battery. The
alternator is then supposed to recharge the battery during the trip.
Now, we all know about the fabulous power output of the Rotax
alternator. To top off a 16 Ah battery, you need to charge the battery
for 1 hour with 16 Amp's. Or for 2 hours with 8 Amp's (100% efficiency
unrealistically assumed). But the Rotax alternator has just enough power
to keep the avionics powered in a typical setup, with only very few
Amp's to spare to charge the battery. With other words, a 16 Ah battery
will probably never get properly charged again once it's capacity has
been put to use (unless using a mains connected charger on the ground).
I have a setup with dual alternators, and dual batteries. Idea behind
this is to be able to fully deplete one battery during glider activities
(future MG), while still keeping a not used battery for restarting at
hand. And of course to have full redundancy, with a fuel pump on each
bus, a navigational instrument on each bus, etc, and to be able to keep
flying even after a total failure of one bus.
Why am I telling all this:
The battery capacity.
I plan to use one 5 Ah battery on each bus, nothing more... These babies
are able to produce 250 Amp's momentarily each, while the Rotax starter
needs 60 Amp's to crank the engine.
I plan to start on just one bus (so just one battery), and one battery
should be sufficient to start and even allow for a few failed attempts.
And then if all fails, there is yet another battery.
When an alternator fails during flight, I always have another alternator
to power the essentials and keep the airplane flying as long as the fuel
allows. The "dead" bus still has a small battery to power a secondary
fuel pump for about one hour, in case there are multiple failures.
The advantage of this minimalistic battery setup is of course the
weight: a total of just under 4 kilo's, (8.8 lbs), for both batteries
together. As a typical 16Ah battery weighs in at more than the double
amount, so this setup more than compensates for the weight of the
secondary alternator.
For less weight, more juice during flight, more redundancy, etc.
It just sounds to good to be true. Hence my suspicion:
Any comments on my reasoning?
Is my assumption that the Rotax usually starts within 10 seconds
acceptable?
Has any of you ever depleted a 16 Ah battery during starting?
If so, how many start attempts did you get out of this 16 Ah battery?
And did you get this 16 Ah battery recharged again with just the Rotax
alternator?
Has anyone else experience with a "minimalistic battery setup"?
--
Frans Veldman
Message 16
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| Subject: | Battery capacity |
Folks,
I don't appreciate these kind of exchanges, especially on an open forum.
There is nothing wrong being precise and knowledgeable but it is the
kind of words we use which makes all the difference. Let's be precise
but kind.
Christoph Both
#223 Classis
Nova Scotia, Canada
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans
Veldman
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Battery capacity
<frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:
> Your math is fuzzy.
Well, show me a better math then.
> Eric Jones does in fact speak all about the fact that resistance of #4
Eric Jones is the guy that sells the stuff, and ommitted the
ohms-per-feet figures in the pdf... He compares cables with the same
diameter, doesn't talk about voltage drop, while the interesting thing
is to compare two cables with the same voltage drop (over the same
length and with equal amount of amperes) and THEN do the weighing.
> I saved a pound:
No, you didn't. At least not if you compare it with copper wire with the
SAME RESISTANCE as your CCA wire (instead of the same diameter).
Hey, I know a great way to save even more weight: Buy my special teflon
#4 cable, absolutely metal-free! It weighs 5% of the copper cable with
the same diameter! Now that's a real bargain! ;-)
> #6 wire especially with an aft battery will be marginal at best. Your
.5
> volt drop may be running the panel but when you crank 50 plus amps it
> will be far greater.
Well, #6 copper wire has a lower voltage drop than your #4 CCA wire. If
#6 wire is marginal, #4 CCA wire is sub-marginal. ;-)
> Redo your math.
Now show me the ohms-per-feet of copper, and the ohms-per-feet of
aluminium. Then we can do a trivial calculation, where we compare the
weight of aluminium and copper WITH THE SAME VOLTAGE DROP (which is
entirely different than the comparison of two cables of equal diameter.
;-) )
Granted, there is a little weight saved, but it is nowhere near 45% as
they claimed.
--
Frans Veldman
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity |
Hi Frans
I don't have all my documentation here.
For Tefzel wire, you can look up info in 43.13
Did you read Erics install manual like I reccomended?
http://www.periheliondesign.com./fatwires_files/FatwireInstallationManual-4.pdf
#4 CCA is .435" diameter and .244 miliohms per foot and 1.72
oz per foot. Larger diameter and bout same resistance as #4 copper but
lighter per foot..
43.13 has #4 wire at .28 ohms per 1000foot
and #6 at .44 ohms.
I don't have the weight of #4 tefzel with
me, but weighed samplesI had on hand.
Is there something
the matter with my math?
BTW read on the website I sent you
about PC310 batteries about charging. Although they will somewhat work
with normal lead acid battery chargers, you want to follow their
recomondations. I will set my LR3C at 14.7 volts.
Ron
Parigoris
Message 18
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| Subject: | 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question |
We spent nearly a year looking into and fixing our cooling problems. We
installed temperature probes throughout the engine compartment and
performed data logging on those temps, as well as engine parameters
(rpm, MP, oil pressure, oil and water temps, CHTs, and fuel flow). Each
parameter was sampled once every 2 seconds during flight and downloaded
to a lap-top after the flight. We found that the gills allowed the
upper cowl inlet air to escape without contributing much to engine
cooling. After closing them off, we found no significant rise in upper
cowl temps, but with a noticeable improvement in lower cowl temps.
Closing off the area between the foot wells was the final fix that made
the temps come down, from a max of 450 deg F inside the cowl to a max of
250 deg F.
Regards,
Terry Seaver
A135 / N135TD
XS monowheel with 912S
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:31 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position
question
I do not have the "gills" open (left them closed since it has been
established that they were a development item providing little cooling
benefit on shut down(positioned too low) and are now a "leftover" item.)
Regards
Bob Harrison.G-PTAG
Bob,
That statement is just not correct. In flight, there is a noticeable
flow of hot air from the gills - obviously aiding the flow of cooling
air across the cylinders. Perhaps that is why you have had cooling
issues on Jabiru and Rotax.
Regards,
Mike
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity |
Hi Terry,
> for several hours with the engine off. We have since flown with the
> engine off for about an hour max, and had the voltage to the instruments
> drop to the point where they started dropping out (we were consuming
> about 2.5 amps). Our problem is that there are small voltage drop at
> many locations that can add up to as much as 2 volts. So when the
> battery drops to 12.0 volts, the instruments see 10.0 V, and have
> problems operating there. We have spent some time looking for the
> voltage drops. They come from each connection (spade lugs, etc.), each
> switch, and each circuit breaker. The biggest drops are in the
> individual circuit breakers in the switch panel we bought from Aircraft
> Spruce.
2 Volts of loss appears pretty much to me. As I don't have the engine
running yet, I'm playing/testing with the avionics on just the (scrap)
batteries, and as far as I can tell I have nothing near 2 Volts of
voltage drop.
What you could do here:
1) Use regular fuses, they have less voltage drop than circuit breakers.
2) Make sure not to use too small wire sizes.
3) Run one heavy ground wire, as every avionics item needs ground, this
saves half of the wire losses with just one wire.
4) Use as few connectors as practical. I have one connector that
connects the instrument panel to the rest of the ship, the rest is soldered.
5) For voltage sensitive equipment, use a DC-DC-converter, which accepts
any input voltage and always puts out 12 Volts.
6) A rarely used trick, but worth considering, is to use a 7 cell
battery. This will give you a nominal voltage of 14 Volts.
--
Frans Veldman
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity |
Christoph Both wrote:
> Folks,
> I don't appreciate these kind of exchanges, especially on an open forum.
> There is nothing wrong being precise and knowledgeable but it is the
> kind of words we use which makes all the difference. Let's be precise
> but kind.
I apologize if my posting didn't look kind. I did not intent to be
unfriendly.
Please understand that English is not my native language and that the
subtile differences between "not agreeing but kind" and "not agreeing
and not friendly" are difficult to master. If one agrees, the exact
wordings used don't matter, it is always friendly. But not agreeing is
an entirely different and more difficult matter. ;-)
I guess for Ron applies the same. We apparently don't agree on the
aluminium cable thing, but I consider him as a friend and do not intend
to be unfriendly to him, nor to anyone else on this forum.
--
Best regards,
Frans Veldman
Message 21
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| Subject: | 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question |
Terry,
While I acknowledge your comments and development. My comments where based
on my experience with a monowheel AND on Andy Draper's comments on the
original Europa development with G-YURO. Plainly there are variable issues
with individual aircraft. I have the Graham Singleton firewall fitted to my
aircraft and have never had any problems apart from the Evans stuff seeming
to push the cooling system past its capability. However, what exactly do
you mean by 'closing off the area between the footwells'. Is this a problem
that the Singleton firewall avoids?
Regards,
Mike
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Seaver
(terrys)
Sent: 01 April 2009 18:46
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question
We spent nearly a year looking into and fixing our cooling problems. We
installed temperature probes throughout the engine compartment and performed
data logging on those temps, as well as engine parameters (rpm, MP, oil
pressure, oil and water temps, CHTs, and fuel flow). Each parameter was
sampled once every 2 seconds during flight and downloaded to a lap-top after
the flight. We found that the gills allowed the upper cowl inlet air to
escape without contributing much to engine cooling. After closing them off,
we found no significant rise in upper cowl temps, but with a noticeable
improvement in lower cowl temps. Closing off the area between the foot
wells was the final fix that made the temps come down, from a max of 450 deg
F inside the cowl to a max of 250 deg F.
Regards,
Terry Seaver
A135 / N135TD
XS monowheel with 912S
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:31 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question
I do not have the "gills" open (left them closed since it has been
established that they were a development item providing little cooling
benefit on shut down(positioned too low) and are now a "leftover" item.)
Regards
Bob Harrison.G-PTAG
Bob,
That statement is just not correct. In flight, there is a noticeable flow
of hot air from the gills - obviously aiding the flow of cooling air across
the cylinders. Perhaps that is why you have had cooling issues on Jabiru
and Rotax.
Regards,
Mike
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
06:06:00
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity |
Hi Ron,
> Did you read Erics install manual like I reccomended?
I thought I did, but this pdf contains information that is missing in
the pdf on top of the page.
> #4 CCA is .435" diameter and .244 miliohms per foot and 1.72 oz per
> foot. Larger diameter and bout same resistance as #4 copper but lighter
> per foot..
Well, this explains a lot.
So far I have always learned that the "gauge number" indicates the
DIAMETER of the cable. So, #4 cable in aluminium is the same diameter as
#4 copper cable.
Now it appears that this #4 CCA cable is more than twice the diameter of
what one normally would call #4 cable.
> Is there something the matter with my math?
No, there is something the matter with the name of the cable, which
suggest that it has a diameter of #4. Why would someone name something
#4 cable, while it has twice the diameter? :-S
If you do the math according to the standard cable sizes (seen the
online calculator I recommended?) then #4 aluminum cable comes out worse
than #6 copper cable.
So, we were both right after all with our math but I have to admit being
mislead by the "#4" indication suggesting that this cable would have a
diameter of gauge #4.
However, if his "#4 CCA" cable has indeed the same resistance as #4
copper cable, by increasing diameter, then the weight saving is indeed
worthwile.
> BTW read on the website I sent you about PC310 batteries about charging.
> Although they will somewhat work with normal lead acid battery chargers,
> you want to follow their recomondations. I will set my LR3C at 14.7 volts.
I also have that Ducati-thing on the other alternator. Guess I have to
put a diode in series with its sense lead to crank up the voltage somewhat.
--
Frans Veldman
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity |
I wrote:
> Eric Jones is the guy that sells the stuff, and ommitted the
> ohms-per-feet figures in the pdf... He compares cables with the same
> diameter,
Disregard, as in this case the assumption that all #4 cables have the
same diameter appears to be wrong.
The rest of this posting continues on this wrong assumption. ;-)
--
Frans Veldman
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity |
Hi Christopher
"> I guess for Ron applies the same. We
apparently don't agree on the
> aluminium cable thing, but I
consider him as a friend and do not intend
> to be unfriendly to
him, nor to anyone else on this forum."
I too consider
Frans a friend and was in no way intending to be arrogant ifI came
off that way, just bringing up a point as a matter of fact that needed
further probing.
No disrespect was intended.
Sincerely
Ron Parigoris
Message 25
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| Subject: | SnF Engineering Meeting |
Hi to All,
Following a discussion this morning with Bud and his discussion with
Dave Stanbridge, here is the latest:
We should plan on an engineering meeting on Friday early evening to
follow a Europa sponsored seminar Friday afternoon. This plan allows
for most or all of us to be gathered in one spot and that simplifies
car-pooling arrangements. In the seminar, the company will discuss
the new SLSA wing, kit improvements and other things of interest.
There are two Hooters in the vicinity, the more distant one is on
I-4 and US-35(a few miles) but may be less crowded with drunken
aviators than the one on South Florida Ave (about a mile east of KLAL)
Any comments?
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=237268#237268
Message 26
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| Subject: | 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question |
Hi Mike,
Our cooling problem was temps reaching 450 deg F in the lower engine
cowl, near the exhaust. The heat melted tie wraps into drops of nylon,
took the temper out of the springs holding the exhaust on, and caused
damage to the cowl itself. We first found that the gills were allowing
air to escape without cooling much of anything. After closing them off,
we found that the cooling air was coming in the upper inlets, crossing
across the top of the engine and then going down the back of the engine,
between the foot wells, bypassing the cylinders and the exhaust area.
Closing off the area behind the engine, between the foot wells, forced
the air to act like it does in a conventional air cooled installation.
It forced the air to pass around the cylinders, top to bottom, and then
to pass around the exhaust, before exiting the lower, rear, of the cowl.
After the two changes mentioned above, the max in-cowl temps dropped to
250 deg F, and our oil temp in the climb dropped 20 deg F, from 240 deg
F to 220 deg F (100 deg F ambient at 12,000+ feet density altitude).
The key to our changes was to treat the engine as you would an air
cooled aircraft engine (the Rotax cylinders are, after all, air cooled).
Bring air into the top of the cowl, force it down around the cylinders
with ducting/baffles, past the exhaust, to finally exit the lower rear
of the cowl.
After making these changes we carefully monitored the temps at the top
of the cowl, near the ignition and carbs, to make sure we had not
negatively affected their cooling. Those temps remained barely above
ambient, only a few degrees different than before.
Regards,
Terry
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 11:22 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position
question
Terry,
While I acknowledge your comments and development. My comments where
based on my experience with a monowheel AND on Andy Draper's comments
on the original Europa development with G-YURO. Plainly there are
variable issues with individual aircraft. I have the Graham Singleton
firewall fitted to my aircraft and have never had any problems apart
from the Evans stuff seeming to push the cooling system past its
capability. However, what exactly do you mean by 'closing off the area
between the footwells'. Is this a problem that the Singleton firewall
avoids?
Regards,
Mike
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry
Seaver (terrys)
Sent: 01 April 2009 18:46
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position
question
We spent nearly a year looking into and fixing our cooling problems. We
installed temperature probes throughout the engine compartment and
performed data logging on those temps, as well as engine parameters
(rpm, MP, oil pressure, oil and water temps, CHTs, and fuel flow). Each
parameter was sampled once every 2 seconds during flight and downloaded
to a lap-top after the flight. We found that the gills allowed the
upper cowl inlet air to escape without contributing much to engine
cooling. After closing them off, we found no significant rise in upper
cowl temps, but with a noticeable improvement in lower cowl temps.
Closing off the area between the foot wells was the final fix that made
the temps come down, from a max of 450 deg F inside the cowl to a max of
250 deg F.
Regards,
Terry Seaver
A135 / N135TD
XS monowheel with 912S
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:31 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position
question
I do not have the "gills" open (left them closed since it has been
established that they were a development item providing little cooling
benefit on shut down(positioned too low) and are now a "leftover" item.)
Regards
Bob Harrison.G-PTAG
Bob,
That statement is just not correct. In flight, there is a noticeable
flow of hot air from the gills - obviously aiding the flow of cooling
air across the cylinders. Perhaps that is why you have had cooling
issues on Jabiru and Rotax.
Regards,
Mike
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
04/01/09 06:06:00
Message 27
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| Subject: | 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question |
Hi Mike,
I forgot to mention that we also have the Singleton firewall, although
we have since gone back to the standard stainless firewall in the lower
half. This allows easier inspection of the motor mounts, etc.
Terry
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 11:22 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position
question
Terry,
While I acknowledge your comments and development. My comments where
based on my experience with a monowheel AND on Andy Draper's comments
on the original Europa development with G-YURO. Plainly there are
variable issues with individual aircraft. I have the Graham Singleton
firewall fitted to my aircraft and have never had any problems apart
from the Evans stuff seeming to push the cooling system past its
capability. However, what exactly do you mean by 'closing off the area
between the footwells'. Is this a problem that the Singleton firewall
avoids?
Regards,
Mike
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry
Seaver (terrys)
Sent: 01 April 2009 18:46
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position
question
We spent nearly a year looking into and fixing our cooling problems. We
installed temperature probes throughout the engine compartment and
performed data logging on those temps, as well as engine parameters
(rpm, MP, oil pressure, oil and water temps, CHTs, and fuel flow). Each
parameter was sampled once every 2 seconds during flight and downloaded
to a lap-top after the flight. We found that the gills allowed the
upper cowl inlet air to escape without contributing much to engine
cooling. After closing them off, we found no significant rise in upper
cowl temps, but with a noticeable improvement in lower cowl temps.
Closing off the area between the foot wells was the final fix that made
the temps come down, from a max of 450 deg F inside the cowl to a max of
250 deg F.
Regards,
Terry Seaver
A135 / N135TD
XS monowheel with 912S
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:31 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position
question
I do not have the "gills" open (left them closed since it has been
established that they were a development item providing little cooling
benefit on shut down(positioned too low) and are now a "leftover" item.)
Regards
Bob Harrison.G-PTAG
Bob,
That statement is just not correct. In flight, there is a noticeable
flow of hot air from the gills - obviously aiding the flow of cooling
air across the cylinders. Perhaps that is why you have had cooling
issues on Jabiru and Rotax.
Regards,
Mike
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
04/01/09 06:06:00
Message 28
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| Subject: | Farewell to N914PB |
Hi all;
This will probably be my last email to the group.- I've de-registered and
dismantled and sold off all the parts to N914PB.- I can't afford the pro
duct liability exposure to selling what was a completed a/c.
-
I appreciate all the camaraderie, brilliant engineering insight, and just p
lain outright fun I've had with the amazing Europa.
-
Best of wishes to all of you,
-
Paul Boulet, De-registered N914PB
Malibu, CA
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity |
Hi Frans
Glad weare both now on same page.
#4
welding cable is different in diameter (larger) than solid copper single
strand.Circularmils of copper is usually close. That said some
tefzel #4 that looks close to same strands are different diameter, so
don't think diameter is absolute.
I saw somewhere else that
aluminium wire is sized to resistance of similar copper. Think it was when
"tipping" (pigtailing copper to aluminium wire with a wire nut
and aluminium oxide paste) my home whichhas aluminium wire. Same
gauge solid aluminium is larger in diameter than solid copper.
"I also have that Ducati-thing on the other alternator. Guess I
have to
> put a diode in series with its sense lead to crank up
the voltage
> somewhat."
Good idea to increase
setpoint if you can. Where exactly would you put diode in circuit? What
value diode?
Has anyone out there changed Ducati
setpoint? How did you do it and how has it been working?
Ron
Parigoris
Message 30
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| Subject: | 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question |
Mike .Andy Draper said originally the gills were there for heat escaping
on shut down. He did tests during flight and they were practically none
effective.
On shut down they are below the hot air collecting in the cowl top and
are not as effective as opening the service access doors. However
probably provide some escape route if parked into wind.
On the Jabiru the whole downward cooling principle made it necessary to
have all alternative outlets above the engine blanked and so keeping the
cowl top internal pressure high. My 914 has the barrel hood fitted also
demanding downward flowing air. I don't have Rotax cooling issues with
the small diverter flap in the lower cowl to boost prop wash into the
radiator when ground running. (The modified lower cowl radiator entrance
however could have been about 4" lower.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin
Sent: 01 April 2009 17:31
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 Waste gate servo mounting position
question
I do not have the "gills" open (left them closed since it has been
established that they were a development item providing little cooling
benefit on shut down(positioned too low) and are now a "leftover" item.)
Regards
Bob Harrison.G-PTAG
Bob,
That statement is just not correct. In flight, there is a noticeable
flow of hot air from the gills - obviously aiding the flow of cooling
air across the cylinders. Perhaps that is why you have had cooling
issues on Jabiru and Rotax.
Regards,
Mike
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity |
Hi Ron,
> #4 welding cable is different in diameter (larger) than solid copper
> single strand. Circular mils of copper is usually close. That said some
> tefzel #4 that looks close to same strands are different diameter, so
> don't think diameter is absolute.
As far as I have been able to find on the internet, gauge indicates
diameter, irrespective of the material. But anyway...
> "I also have that Ducati-thing on the other alternator. Guess I have to
>> put a diode in series with its sense lead to crank up the voltage
>> somewhat."
>
> Good idea to increase setpoint if you can. Where exactly would you put
> diode in circuit? What value diode?
Most regulators have multiple 12 Volt connection points. So does the
Ducati regulator. One of these 12 Volt points (the one labeled 'C') has
the sole purpose of measuring the voltage. You can connect this directly
to the adjacent connector (B, or R, which carries the actual output) as
is often done, so it measures its own output, but a more correct way is
to connect it directly to the battery, so that any voltage drop over the
feeder cable is corrected. Suppose you want to have a voltage over the
battery of 13.7 Volts, and the cables have a loss of 0.5 Volt, then
connected in this way the regulator will crank up the voltage until it
sees 13.7 Volts at the battery, i.e. it will output 14.2 Volts to
correct the voltage drop over the main cable. Ok, I guess almost nobody
does this as most people don't know about it. BTW, The regulator for the
SD20S alternator has a similar option.
You can however do more with this if you are creative. A standard diode,
like a 1N400x, has a forward voltage drop of about 0.6 / 0.7 Volts. So,
if you put this diode in series with the wire connected to the C, the
regulator will see 0.7 Volts less than the actual voltage. It will
therefor output more to correct for this condition. With other words,
the output will increase with 0.7 Volts.
The diode will not carry any significant current, any rating will
suffice. You could put multiple diodes in series if you want to have a
multiple of 0.7 Volts. A Skottky diode has a forward drop of about 0.2
Volts. You can also use a resistor divider to increase the output with
any value, but keep in mind that a resistor also divides the voltage
fluctuations while a diode is absolute, so using a resistor divider is
somewhat less stable. Another trick is to use a temperature sensitive
resistor, so the regulator will adjust the voltage according to the
temperature, something that is highly appreciated by the battery.
--
Frans Veldman
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: SnF Engineering Meeting |
Ira,
Steve Pitt would have the info on the Hooters we've frequented over the
past few years... ;)
Jeff - Baby Blue
rampil wrote:
>
> Hi to All,
>
> Following a discussion this morning with Bud and his discussion with
> Dave Stanbridge, here is the latest:
>
> We should plan on an engineering meeting on Friday early evening to
> follow a Europa sponsored seminar Friday afternoon. This plan allows
> for most or all of us to be gathered in one spot and that simplifies
> car-pooling arrangements. In the seminar, the company will discuss
> the new SLSA wing, kit improvements and other things of interest.
>
> There are two Hooters in the vicinity, the more distant one is on
> I-4 and US-35(a few miles) but may be less crowded with drunken
> aviators than the one on South Florida Ave (about a mile east of KLAL)
>
> Any comments?
>
> --------
> Ira N224XS
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=237268#237268
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: SnF Engineering Meeting |
My vote would be for the one further away.=C2- Lynne and I could not get
near the Hooters for the meeting last year.=C2- I am driving and can take
2 with me after the seminar.
Jim Puglise
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff B" <topglock@cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 6:53:01 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: Europa-List: SnF Engineering Meeting
Ira,
Steve Pitt would have the info on the Hooters we've frequented over the
past few years... ;)
Jeff - Baby Blue
rampil wrote:
>
> Hi to All,
>
> Following a discussion this morning with Bud and his discussion with
> Dave Stanbridge, here is the latest:
>
> We should plan on an engineering meeting on Friday early evening to
> follow a Europa sponsored seminar Friday afternoon. =C2-This plan allow
s
> for most or all of us to be gathered in one spot and that simplifies
> car-pooling arrangements. =C2-In the seminar, the company will discuss
> the new SLSA wing, kit improvements and other things of interest.
>
> There are two Hooters in the vicinity, the more distant one is on
> I-4 and US-35(a few miles) but may be less crowded with drunken
> aviators than the one on South Florida Ave (about a mile east of KLAL)
>
> Any comments?
>
> --------
> Ira N224XS
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=237268#237268
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
===========
===========
MS -
===========
e -
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2--Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Farewell to N914PB |
Paul,
Sorry to see you go. Hope you find some time to build and fly again sometime. Good
to meet you.
All the best,
Dan
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 35
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| Subject: | Reamer available in "Free to a good home" |
Hi Everyone,
Thanks to Gary Robert's generosity, we now have a hand reamer that can be used
to make the mandatory mod 72, strengthing of the undercarriage mounting frame.
Here's the deal... I'll pay for the postage to whomever requests it first so long
as that person agrees to do the same for whomever needs it next. And so on
to the next person.
See the info with the mod attached in the "Free to a good home" section.
Dan
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 36
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| Subject: | Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Europa-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete Europa-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
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This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
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where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Europa-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* Europa-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the Europa-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* Europa-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* Europa-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* Europa-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* Europa-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the Europa-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Europa
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
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I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
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Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
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Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
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Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
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The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
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If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
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Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 37
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Europa-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Europa-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 38
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 914 Waste gate servo mounting position question |
Bob and Terry,
I must say that I find the subject of Europa cooling most baffling (pardon
the pun). G-JULZ is constructed absolutely 'bog standard' apart from the
addition of the Singleton firewall. My 914 engine pre-dates the later
ducting and stuff that is fitted around the cylinders. You may recall that
I had the cooling issues in Switzerland some years back which prompted me to
lower the oil cooler from behind the radiator. Since then my problem has
been getting the engine up to temperature to take-off - particularly in
winter. It is true that the Evans coolant had an adverse effect such that
in a sustained climb during the summer the engine temperature climbed
quickly such that I had to level off early to control the temperatures. I
think that the heat transfer properties of the Evans being less than that of
water/glycol was enough to push the cooling system beyond its capability on
a hot day. I am just completing the modification paperwork for my cowl
flap which may or may not have any effect - certainly these days - trying to
keep the engine temperatures up particularly in the cruise is the main
problem. CHT and Oil temperatures circa 60-70 degs C are not unusual once
established in the cruise. It is curious that some people have major
cooling issues and other people don't. Perhaps I am missing something. I
have just fitted a water temperature gauge which might help identify any
problems. In light of Terry's experience, I will be watching the whole
thing much more carefully.
Regards,
Mike
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