---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/25/09: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:54 AM - Re: First engine run; what is normal? (Frans Veldman) 2. 05:11 AM - Re: First engine run; what is normal? (nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk) 3. 09:23 AM - Re: First engine run; what is normal? (Karl Heindl) 4. 11:14 AM - Re: First engine run; what is normal? (Mike Parkin) 5. 12:47 PM - Re: First engine run; what is normal? (Frans Veldman) 6. 12:55 PM - Re: First engine run; what is normal? (Frans Veldman) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:54:16 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: First engine run; what is normal? Frans Veldman wrote: >> You may get slightly better cooling on the ground by coarsening your >> prop to push more air though the radiators. > > Ah, ok. That might be helpfull. Have conducted all my tests so far with > the prop on fine. Will try this today. Started up today with a cold engine, ambient temperature around 15 degrees Celcius, pop slightly on coarse, ran 2000 rpm until boiling point. Got 13 minutes out of it... Is that normal? The bad thing is that after these 13 minutes I think the oil is still somewhat too cold to ask for full power... Hate to think about warmer weather. I guess I have to modify the cowling, and use the lower part of the cowling as a ramp for the radiators. This will probably give more drag in flight, but I think I need to be able to spend more time on the ground before take off. And being able to conduct a run up would also be nice. -- Frans Veldman ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:12 AM PST US From: "nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk" Subject: Re: Europa-List: First engine run; what is normal? I have only picked up this discussion at this point. However for what it's worth I found that it took about 20 hours of engine running before the engine was fully run in. During this time 120 degC was reached fairly quickly during full power climbs. Also if you are getting coolant overheat with low oil temperatures the most likely culprit is air locks in the coolant system. Nigel Charles >----Original Message---- >From: frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl >Date: 25/04/2009 11:45 >To: >Subj: Re: Europa-List: First engine run; what is normal? > > >Frans Veldman wrote: > >>> You may get slightly better cooling on the ground by coarsening your >>> prop to push more air though the radiators. >> >> Ah, ok. That might be helpfull. Have conducted all my tests so far with >> the prop on fine. Will try this today. > >Started up today with a cold engine, ambient temperature around 15 >degrees Celcius, pop slightly on coarse, ran 2000 rpm until boiling >point. Got 13 minutes out of it... > >Is that normal? > >The bad thing is that after these 13 minutes I think the oil is still >somewhat too cold to ask for full power... > >Hate to think about warmer weather. > >I guess I have to modify the cowling, and use the lower part of the >cowling as a ramp for the radiators. This will probably give more drag >in flight, but I think I need to be able to spend more time on the >ground before take off. And being able to conduct a run up would also be >nice. > >-- >Frans Veldman > > News, Entertainment, Celebrity Gossip and more - http://www.tiscali.co.uk ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:23:15 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: First engine run; what is normal? Hi Frans=2C I don't know the 914=2C but your coolant temperature seems to indicate a pr oblem. Usually=2C it is one of the three: 1) You changed the hoses and one or more clamps are not tight under pressur e. 2) The filler cap is not fully tightened=2C maybe a clamp obstructing it. 3) Air lock For carb balancing I used an electronic indicator from a car parts shop. An y uneven combustion will cause vibration with a two-bladed prop. At least t hat was my experience. The prop is already factory balanced=2C so don't mes s with that. Karl > Date: Fri=2C 24 Apr 2009 22:47:49 +0200 > From: frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: First engine run=3B what is normal? > l> > > Hi everyone=2C > > Today I started the engine for the first time. It started right up! > > However=2C not being used to a Rotax 914=2C it is difficult to tell what > engine behaviour is normal. There are two things that make me wonder if > I fall into the normal range: > > 1) How rough is normal? > Ok=2C I'm spoiled. Have flown most of my hours in a Cessna with diesel > engine. 4-in-row=2C 3-blade propeller. These things run as smooth as a ca r. > With the Rotax=2C it is quite different. Vibrations are eminent. Have > pneumatically balanced the carbs=2C checked everything=2C but can't get i dle > reliable and smooth below 1500 rpm. RPM is unstable (varies in a band of > about 100 RPM above 1500 rpm=2C more below that)=2C runs relatively smoot h > between 2200 rpm and 3500 rpm=2C around 4000 rpm vibrations increase=2C > didn't go any higher than that. Below 1500 rpm idle is unstable=2C and > below 1400 rpm the rpm suddenly drops sharply. Had it for a short while > running at 800 rpm=2C but=2C let's say=2C 1000 rpm is pretty much impossi ble > to get=2C most of the time it just dies if I try to get below 1400 rpm. > The vibration is not that bad=2C it is not as if the machine is going to > fall apart=2C but more like you would expect from a motorbike or so=2C we ll=2C > maybe slightly rougher. I have a two blade prop (Woodcomp SR3000/2W)=2C > maybe it is normal for a two blade to give some vibrations? Haven't > balanced it yet=2C but it is supposed to be balanced from the factory. Is > this to be expected? > > Fuel pressure is 4 psi=2C RPM drop with both magneto's about 150 rpm > (although difficult to establish because the rpm varies by itself). > All 4 EGT's are equal. Checked the plugs=2C they seem normal as well. > Front ones appear to receive a slightly richer mixture (see some carbon > deposites=2C most likely from starting up with choke)=2C the bottom plugs > show slight traces of oil on the outer ring. All show a pretty healthy > tan color on the nose. > > Is this RPM instability and roughness normal? > > The engine has not been used since delivery around september. Could it > be that I need to clean the carbs? Another possibility (not yet checked) > is that I need to change the idle mixture (maybe somewhat enrichen it)? > > Oh=2C I did check the lifters=2C they appear to be functional=2C with no air > trapped inside. > > 2) How much heat is normal? > I knew in advance that the combination Europa-Rotax is somewhat of a > challenge. Have made some cowling changes with the expectation not to > experience any heat problems. Alas=2C this thing heats up quickly. About > 10 minutes before the coolant (50/50) gets to 130 degrees Celcius. > Cylinder heads (measured with a ring sensor below the cylinder head > bolts) about 10 degrees lower (?). > In fact=2C I didn't succeed in getting an oil temperature up to the green > zone (about 90 degrees) without getting into the red zone with the > coolant. I doubt whether it will be possible to do some serious power > testing this way. > > Is this normal? How long should it be possible to taxi/idle before the > temps go to high? How should one test higher power settings on the ground ? > > Get about 750 Celcius on the EGT's at 3500 rpm (fronts a little bit > lower than the rears). Is that normal? > > Have had the prop on fine with all tests. > > Any indications of what is normal are appreciated. > > Thanks=2C > -- > Frans Veldman > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:08 AM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: First engine run; what is normal? Frans, A new engine can be quite tight and needs a little running before the operating temperatures will come down. For ground runs you might find it advantageous to run it with the top and bottom cowlings removed for a while. By the way have you configured the oil cooler directly behind the radiator -- if so, lowering the oil cooler in the duct can help a great deal. It made quite a difference on my 914. Also, don't run the engine below 2000 rpm unless you have to, the engine will run rough and it accelerates the wear on the gearbox. I recommend once you have everything sorted out, carb balance etc - dynamically balance the propeller. It makes quite a difference. The Kingairs I flew as part of my job (when I worked) were always cracking exhaust stubs until the company bought a balancer and started a prop balancing programme. I borrowed the balancer from work and balanced my Airmaster.....made it run really smooth. Regards, Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 24 April 2009 21:48 Subject: Europa-List: First engine run; what is normal? Hi everyone, Today I started the engine for the first time. It started right up! 04/23/09 19:21:00 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:47:49 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: First engine run; what is normal? > A new engine can be quite tight and needs a little running before the > operating temperatures will come down. For ground runs you might > find it advantageous to run it with the top and bottom cowlings > removed for a while. That certainly helps, but of course the ultimate goal is to being able to run it in flight configuration. I know that a new engine runs a bit hotter, but on the other hand, the current environment temperatures are much lower than what I hope to be able to cope with. > By the way have you configured the oil cooler > directly behind the radiator -- if so, lowering the oil cooler in > the duct can help a great deal. Well, the oil temperature is the only temperature that never went into the upper half of the green arc. In fact, it is difficult to get it into the normal operating range before the coolant gets into the red zone. It is the coolant temperature that makes a challenge. > Also, don't run the engine below 2000 rpm unless you have to, Ok, got that part, today I did all test around 2000 - 2200 rpm. I had to draw the conclusion that my cooling setup, optimised for low drag in flight, was not working well enough on the ground. I had the radiators setup as a "stand alone" bay, with a small opening followed by a diffuser. Theoretically this should give minimal cooling drag, and plenty of cooling... while flying. Some testing revealed that there was not much airflow during idle on the ground though. So I literally took the saw and sawed off the radiator opening, diffuser, and left the bare radiator extending under the cowl. The lower cowling by itself is formed as a nice ramp, so the idea was that this would produce more air flow. Further testing confirmed this. With an engine already slightly warm from the previous test, an ambiant temperature that had increased by 10 degrees Celcius compared to this morning's test, I still got 23 minutes until the boiling point. Quite an improvement! So, I'm working now on cleaning up the mess, constructing a new diffuser, and using the lower cowling as a ramp. > I recommend once you have everything sorted out, carb balance etc - > dynamically balance the propeller. Yes, I'm going to do that. Thanks for confirming the idea that this might be worthwile! > Kingairs I flew as part of my job (when I worked) were always > cracking exhaust stubs until the company bought a balancer and > started a prop balancing programme. I borrowed the balancer from > work and balanced my Airmaster.....made it run really smooth. This sounds really encouraging! Frans ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:55:07 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: First engine run; what is normal? Hi Karl, > I don't know the 914, but your coolant temperature seems to indicate a > problem. Usually, it is one of the three: I think the problem is the radiator setup, combined with a new, tight, engine. So far, could not find any fault in the cooling system. CHT's (I measure four) are equal too. With a small change in the cooling setup I got already far better results. > For carb balancing I used an electronic indicator from a car parts shop. I used a manifold pressure gauge from a Cessna Skymaster with a front and rear engine. Has dual needles. Works nicely to the level of just a half inch Hg. Does it help to go more precise than that? Also, today it didn't seem as bad as yesterday. It looks like the wind has some effect on it, which I can imagine with a 2 bladed prop. Or maybe I'm getting used to it. ;-) Frans ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.