Europa-List Digest Archive

Thu 05/07/09


Total Messages Posted: 14



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:39 AM - How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer? (Frans Veldman)
     2. 03:41 AM - Re: Re: Windshield care and Pledge (Greg Fuchs)
     3. 05:07 AM - Re: Purchase in UK (h&jeuropa)
     4. 06:47 AM - Re: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer? (Robert C Harrison)
     5. 07:35 AM - Re: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer? (Frans Veldman)
     6. 11:25 AM - Re: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer? (Raimo Toivio)
     7. 12:18 PM - Re: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer? (Robert C Harrison)
     8. 01:13 PM - Re: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer? (Frans Veldman)
     9. 01:20 PM - Re: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer? (Frans Veldman)
    10. 03:12 PM - Re: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer? (Robert C Harrison)
    11. 03:12 PM - Re: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer? (Robert C Harrison)
    12. 06:53 PM - Fuel injection for Jab 3300 - NOT (Fred Klein)
    13. 07:23 PM - Re: Fuel injection for Jab 3300 - NOT (craig bastin)
    14. 10:52 PM - Re: Fuel injection for Jab 3300 - NOT (Robert C Harrison)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:39:07 AM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
    Subject: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer?
    Hi everyone, I bought my unstarted tri-gear kit #589 from someone else, together with the factory supplied trailer. Now don't laugh, but as easy it is to get an airplane registered over here, as difficult it is to get a trailer registered. I applied anyway, but it got rejected and it appears the situation is hopeless unless I can produce the required information. Now, with the European community, if a similar trailer is admitted somewhere, there must be some European admittance number (don't know the correct English expression for it, so it might be named differently), and with that specific number I should be able to get my trailer registered as well. So, I would like to know if someone else got this type of trailer registered (in a European country of course), and is willing to copy the paperwork, and/or can tell me how he succeeded, that would be very helpfull. Does someone know the manufacturer of these trailers? Then maybe they can help me as well. -- Frans Veldman


    Message 2


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    Time: 03:41:32 AM PST US
    From: "Greg Fuchs " <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Windshield care and Pledge
    Here is the response back from SC Johnson, manufacturer of pledge furniture polish, about my questioning if I could use this product on aircraft Plexiglas: " Please know we have not tested this product on the surfaces you've described so we cannot recommend it. We design, formulate and test every product for specific household tasks. That's why we always recommend using products according to their label directions. " So..the product was not designed with Plexiglas in mind, they have not tested it, and therefore cannot recommend it. Their response doesn't really surprise me, I am sure they don't want to take any responsibility for anything the product is not specifically designed for, especially with expensive aircraft canopies (which I had baited them with, in my question). Thus I took the liberty to analyze some of the ingredients in more detail (to the best of my limited chemical abilities), and I include it here as an attachment. The final analysis is not black and white (there is no FINAL analysis), and one of the ingredients may not have quite been figured out but I think it is close, and quite revealing about the usage of Pledge on a canopy. There will always be some who will scoff at the idea of using Pledge, only because it is not made specifically for airplane windshields. That is fine, and it is a nice conservative approach, especially where there is liability (to customers) involved. Opinions are many and all varieties are expected. I think a look at the ingredient comparisons to other products could make a few jaws drop, though. This topic has been an ongoing learning experience for me, and the difference in opinion is what has driven me to do the research. It is worth it. There could be some more research in the future, or additional inputs by real chemists (or anyone else for that matter), with comments, or additional data. Best Regards, Greg Fuchs, A050 XS-914-Tri Tigard, Oregon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I sent an email out about 9 hours ago to a SC Johnson Consumer Service Representative. They should be getting back soon.. ~Greg Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Windshield care and Pledge Has anyone asked Pledge whether that firm recommends it for our use on plexiglass in aircraft? JR (Bob) Gowing in Oz


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:07:48 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Purchase in UK
    From: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43@att.net>
    Hi Rob, Yes, we received several offers of help. Parts are on the way. Thanks! Jim do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243002#243002


    Message 4


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    Time: 06:47:09 AM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer?
    Hi! Frans To the best of my knowledge the UK does not need trailers licensed. The first I knew of such bureaucracy was when my Son imported a Canadian Honda CRV to Sweden and tried to tow a boat trailer ! Their authorities condemned the tow bar on the vehicle and insisted he apply for a trailer license. He had to get an approved electrical engineer to certify the electrical wiring on the vehicle and have a new tow bar fitted costing a bloody fortune. Better not shout about your problem over in the UK too loud otherwise our damned bureaucrats will jump on the band wagon and start making me jump through impossible hoops with my purpose built trailer.! Have you established it is enforceable in your country? This just may be why it is appearing so hard. I traveled to MT Propellers over the ferry and back along the autobahns without any problem except for loosing a wheel when no one pulled me! Regards Bob Harrison. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 07 May 2009 11:35 Subject: Europa-List: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer? <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl> Hi everyone, I bought my unstarted tri-gear kit #589 from someone else, together with the factory supplied trailer. Now don't laugh, but as easy it is to get an airplane registered over here, as difficult it is to get a trailer registered. I applied anyway, but it got rejected and it appears the situation is hopeless unless I can produce the required information. Now, with the European community, if a similar trailer is admitted somewhere, there must be some European admittance number (don't know the correct English expression for it, so it might be named differently), and with that specific number I should be able to get my trailer registered as well. So, I would like to know if someone else got this type of trailer registered (in a European country of course), and is willing to copy the paperwork, and/or can tell me how he succeeded, that would be very helpfull. Does someone know the manufacturer of these trailers? Then maybe they can help me as well. -- Frans Veldman


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:35:58 AM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
    Subject: Re: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer?
    Hi Bob, > To the best of my knowledge the UK does not need trailers licensed. Yep, and that is exactly my problem. Because it has not been licensed in the country the trailer was coming from, it is nearly impossible to license it here. Up to 750 Kg's, trailers don't need a license here. Unfortunately, the trailer plus the Europa will exceed this limit. If there would be a type certificate, the trailer could easily be licensed. But this is not the case, so it is going to be nearly impossible. I have to provide strength calculations, approval numbers for axles, brakes, hitches, etc. Isn't it ironically? You guys in the UK have a pretty hard time with getting your homebuilt airplane licensed (unless you play it exactly by the rules, with approvals for all kind of silly mods), and may tow around anything behind your cars. In the Netherlands, I can modify the airplane to my hearts contents, without any approvals let alone inspections, and get it licensed without difficulties. But the trailer, well, it is virtually impossible. I could probably register the trailer more easily as an airplane (with a very bad climb rate), if I 'd install a mode-S transponder on it (which you are not supposed to use anyway). ;-) To bad that in that case I would be restricted to use the trailer only on the landing strip... > Have you established it is enforceable in your country? Yep. Did some phone work. Bureaucrats tell me it is impossible. Trailer selling companies told me that it *might* be possible, but would likely costs 1000 Euro's as it will take many manhours to make up the paperwork, do the calculations, visit the licensing station a few times, etc. They advised me to try to get somewhere some paperwork to increase the chances of succes, and this is why I'm begging on this forum for some paperwork. > I traveled to MT Propellers over the ferry and back along the autobahns > without any problem except for loosing a wheel when no one pulled me! This won't be a problem. Trailers need to be registered in the country of their owner, and can than be taken in any country they wish. Pretty much the same as with airplanes. Hmmm, maybe I should just register my trailer in the UK. Need to find out then if I'm allowed to pull it with my Dutch registered car. -- Frans Veldman


    Message 6


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    Time: 11:25:49 AM PST US
    From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
    Subject: Re: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer?
    Hi Frans I have been there and had exactly same problems. I imported original Europa factory trailer from Germany. Solution: in Finnish Road Traffic Law there is a group they call like "moveable devices". I just named my trailer to be a moveable device! That means no oblication to register and no insurances and I am free to make any modifications. So, my trailer is now an experimental trailer and I have added for example second axle and so on. Conditions: 1) a red triangle must be fixed to the trailer back instead of register plate. 2) all the cargo must be removable only by tools (I have to use a set of spanner tools to take Europa away) 4) speed limit 40 km/h (nobody cares, I prefer 60 or 70 km/h is max) Look next time those huge trailerable traffic signs what they use in road work there. I assume they are not registered also in Netherland. They are moveable devices then. They trailer also giant boats from harbour to harbour by unregistered trailers (=moveable device then). One extra advantage: my trailer=B4s MTOW (maximum trail off weight!) loaded with Europa is more than 750 kgs. My poor trailer is brakeless and normally brakes are necessary then but because it=B4s moveable device, no matter and nobody cares. I was once in a traffic stop check and policeman asked "what the hell is that?" I just answered "cannot you see - it is a flying trailer!" and so he was happy and I was free to head to airport. After this pic (attachment) I have add several extras like floor. It=B4s empty weight is around 500 kgs now. I hope this helps - let me know. Tow safe - it is the riskiest part of flying. Raimo OH-XRT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frans Veldman" <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 5:32 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer? <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl> > > Hi Bob, > > > To the best of my knowledge the UK does not need trailers licensed. > > Yep, and that is exactly my problem. Because it has not been licensed in > the country the trailer was coming from, it is nearly impossible to > license it here. > > Up to 750 Kg's, trailers don't need a license here. Unfortunately, the > trailer plus the Europa will exceed this limit. > > If there would be a type certificate, the trailer could easily be > licensed. But this is not the case, so it is going to be nearly impossible. > I have to provide strength calculations, approval numbers for axles, > brakes, hitches, etc. > > Isn't it ironically? You guys in the UK have a pretty hard time with > getting your homebuilt airplane licensed (unless you play it exactly by > the rules, with approvals for all kind of silly mods), and may tow > around anything behind your cars. > In the Netherlands, I can modify the airplane to my hearts contents, > without any approvals let alone inspections, and get it licensed without > difficulties. But the trailer, well, it is virtually impossible. > > I could probably register the trailer more easily as an airplane (with a > very bad climb rate), if I 'd install a mode-S transponder on it (which > you are not supposed to use anyway). ;-) To bad that in that case I > would be restricted to use the trailer only on the landing strip... > > > Have you established it is enforceable in your country? > > Yep. Did some phone work. Bureaucrats tell me it is impossible. Trailer > selling companies told me that it *might* be possible, but would likely > costs 1000 Euro's as it will take many manhours to make up the > paperwork, do the calculations, visit the licensing station a few times, > etc. They advised me to try to get somewhere some paperwork to increase > the chances of succes, and this is why I'm begging on this forum for > some paperwork. > > > I traveled to MT Propellers over the ferry and back along the autobahns > > without any problem except for loosing a wheel when no one pulled me! > > This won't be a problem. Trailers need to be registered in the country > of their owner, and can than be taken in any country they wish. Pretty > much the same as with airplanes. > > Hmmm, maybe I should just register my trailer in the UK. Need to find > out then if I'm allowed to pull it with my Dutch registered car. > > -- > Frans Veldman > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 12:18:25 PM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer?
    Hi! Frans....... Your last sentence is still presuming that you can register your trailer in the UK. I say again we have no such system even for caravans. IMHO just quote the weight unloaded.....but only if you get "pulled" ....make them provide the legal work! The wombats in Brussels have you jumping through invisible hoops. Regards Bob Harrison. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 07 May 2009 15:32 Subject: Re: Europa-List: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer? <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl> Hi Bob, > To the best of my knowledge the UK does not need trailers licensed. Yep, and that is exactly my problem. Because it has not been licensed in the country the trailer was coming from, it is nearly impossible to license it here. Up to 750 Kg's, trailers don't need a license here. Unfortunately, the trailer plus the Europa will exceed this limit. If there would be a type certificate, the trailer could easily be licensed. But this is not the case, so it is going to be nearly impossible. I have to provide strength calculations, approval numbers for axles, brakes, hitches, etc. Isn't it ironically? You guys in the UK have a pretty hard time with getting your homebuilt airplane licensed (unless you play it exactly by the rules, with approvals for all kind of silly mods), and may tow around anything behind your cars. In the Netherlands, I can modify the airplane to my hearts contents, without any approvals let alone inspections, and get it licensed without difficulties. But the trailer, well, it is virtually impossible. I could probably register the trailer more easily as an airplane (with a very bad climb rate), if I 'd install a mode-S transponder on it (which you are not supposed to use anyway). ;-) To bad that in that case I would be restricted to use the trailer only on the landing strip... > Have you established it is enforceable in your country? Yep. Did some phone work. Bureaucrats tell me it is impossible. Trailer selling companies told me that it *might* be possible, but would likely costs 1000 Euro's as it will take many manhours to make up the paperwork, do the calculations, visit the licensing station a few times, etc. They advised me to try to get somewhere some paperwork to increase the chances of succes, and this is why I'm begging on this forum for some paperwork. > I traveled to MT Propellers over the ferry and back along the autobahns > without any problem except for loosing a wheel when no one pulled me! This won't be a problem. Trailers need to be registered in the country of their owner, and can than be taken in any country they wish. Pretty much the same as with airplanes. Hmmm, maybe I should just register my trailer in the UK. Need to find out then if I'm allowed to pull it with my Dutch registered car. -- Frans Veldman


    Message 8


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    Time: 01:13:59 PM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
    Subject: Re: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer?
    Hi Bob, > Hi! Frans....... Your last sentence is still presuming that you can > register your trailer in the UK. I say again we have no such system even > for caravans. Ok, I get that point. So what kind of license plate do you use on the trailer? Just the same as the car towing it? > IMHO just quote the weight unloaded.....but only if you > get "pulled" ....make them provide the legal work! The wombats in > Brussels have you jumping through invisible hoops. I'm not really concerned to receive a ticket once in a while. I'm worried what will happen if some lunatick hits the trailer from behind, crushes my Europa, and then his insurance claims that while his client did some damage, I was not supposed to drive there with the airplane anyway, and that my "illegal" combination was a contributing (or sole?) factor in the loss of the airplane. I'm sure that in such an accident, the rather unusual "car crushes airplane" claim will receive the full attention of the insurance company. Given the fact that my claim will be quite high, they will probably come up with anything they can find to reject or minimize my claim. The fact that I'm transporting the airplane with an illegal trailer will probably be well received by the insurance company. :-( -- Frans Veldman


    Message 9


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    Time: 01:20:58 PM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
    Subject: Re: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer?
    Hi Raimo, > I have been there and had exactly same problems. > I imported original Europa factory trailer from Germany. > > Solution: in Finnish Road Traffic Law there is a group they call like "moveable devices". > I just named my trailer to be a moveable device! Interesting solution! Yes, I have seen similar "trailers" over here. I don't know anything about these rules, but I will find out. I suspect however that I can't use highways and such with them. Maybe not a factor where you live, but it would be a rather limiting factor over here. But it is an interesting idea (and maybe last resort) anyway. Thanks! -- Frans Veldman


    Message 10


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    Time: 03:12:56 PM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer?
    Hi! Frans Further to my message just posted, we often refer to very long glider trailers as "special purpose" trailers ....covers a multitude of sins! Regards Bob H -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 07 May 2009 21:18 Subject: Re: Europa-List: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer? <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl> Hi Raimo, > I have been there and had exactly same problems. > I imported original Europa factory trailer from Germany. > > Solution: in Finnish Road Traffic Law there is a group they call like "moveable devices". > I just named my trailer to be a moveable device! Interesting solution! Yes, I have seen similar "trailers" over here. I don't know anything about these rules, but I will find out. I suspect however that I can't use highways and such with them. Maybe not a factor where you live, but it would be a rather limiting factor over here. But it is an interesting idea (and maybe last resort) anyway. Thanks! -- Frans Veldman


    Message 11


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    Time: 03:12:56 PM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer?
    Hi! Frans Yes I understand your concern of course my trailer would have to be made quite a mess before it got through to the plane. We just use a duplicate number plate, the same as the pulling car. To make it slightly more official I also have a "LONG VEHICLE" plate on the back as well together with a tow board with lights (including brake lights and indicators ), the magic triangle and the requisite "60" sign. I can legally run at that speed since the trailer is braked by an over run system. Regards Bob Harrison. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 07 May 2009 21:12 Subject: Re: Europa-List: How to license/register a Tri-gear trailer? <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl> Hi Bob, > Hi! Frans....... Your last sentence is still presuming that you can > register your trailer in the UK. I say again we have no such system even > for caravans. Ok, I get that point. So what kind of license plate do you use on the trailer? Just the same as the car towing it? > IMHO just quote the weight unloaded.....but only if you > get "pulled" ....make them provide the legal work! The wombats in > Brussels have you jumping through invisible hoops. I'm not really concerned to receive a ticket once in a while. I'm worried what will happen if some lunatick hits the trailer from behind, crushes my Europa, and then his insurance claims that while his client did some damage, I was not supposed to drive there with the airplane anyway, and that my "illegal" combination was a contributing (or sole?) factor in the loss of the airplane. I'm sure that in such an accident, the rather unusual "car crushes airplane" claim will receive the full attention of the insurance company. Given the fact that my claim will be quite high, they will probably come up with anything they can find to reject or minimize my claim. The fact that I'm transporting the airplane with an illegal trailer will probably be well received by the insurance company. :-( -- Frans Veldman


    Message 12


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    Time: 06:53:53 PM PST US
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Subject: Fuel injection for Jab 3300 - NOT
    I emailed Jab to see about the Jab-compatible fuel injection system now being marketed by Rotec and received the following reply today: > From: "info" <info@jabiru.net.au> > Date: May 7, 2009 4:30:46 PM PDT > To: "'Fred Klein'" <fklein@orcasonline.com> > Subject: RE: Fuel injection for Jab 3300 > > Hello Fred, > > Jabiru have never seen this system and we have no plans to test the > system or support the system in the future. The installation of the > TBI-40 would void the warranty on the engine. > > Regards, > > Mandie Banner > Info & Enquiries > JABIRU AIRCRAFT PTY LTD -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.


    Message 13


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    Time: 07:23:21 PM PST US
    From: "craig bastin" <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
    Subject: Fuel injection for Jab 3300 - NOT
    If its a straight replacement for the carb though it would be easy enough to put the carb back if you had issues and they would be none the wiser. craig do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: Friday, 8 May 2009 11:52 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Fuel injection for Jab 3300 - NOT I emailed Jab to see about the Jab-compatible fuel injection system now being marketed by Rotec and received the following reply today: From: "info" <info@jabiru.net.au> Date: May 7, 2009 4:30:46 PM PDT To: "'Fred Klein'" <fklein@orcasonline.com> Subject: RE: Fuel injection for Jab 3300 Hello Fred, Jabiru have never seen this system and we have no plans to test the system or support the system in the future. The installation of the TBI-40 would void the warranty on the engine. Regards, Mandie Banner Info & Enquiries JABIRU AIRCRAFT PTY LTD -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.


    Message 14


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    Time: 10:52:46 PM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Fuel injection for Jab 3300 - NOT
    Hi! Fred. No surprise there then! I can for all time wonder how they came to build a bloody engine anyway ! Best regards Bob Harrison. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: 08 May 2009 02:52 Subject: Europa-List: Fuel injection for Jab 3300 - NOT I emailed Jab to see about the Jab-compatible fuel injection system now being marketed by Rotec and received the following reply today: From: "info" <info@jabiru.net.au> Subject: RE: Fuel injection for Jab 3300 Hello Fred, Jabiru have never seen this system and we have no plans to test the system or support the system in the future. The installation of the TBI-40 would void the warranty on the engine. Regards, Mandie Banner Info & Enquiries JABIRU AIRCRAFT PTY LTD -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by <http://www.mailscanner.info/> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.




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