Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:25 AM - Re: europe-only - pilot licensing changes (Bill Sisley)
2. 03:10 PM - Re: 914 Fuel Injected Update & Opinion (ALAN YERLY)
3. 03:30 PM - Re: 914 Fuel Injected Update & Opinion (craig bastin)
4. 08:43 PM - Re: 914 Fuel Injected Update & Opinion (ALAN YERLY)
5. 09:13 PM - Re: 914 Fuel Injected Update & Opinion (craig bastin)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: europe-only - pilot licensing changes |
We are visiting our daughter in Cape Town SA from the 24th May to 1st
July and will have lot's of time to spare.
Just wondering if there are any Europa builder/flyers in that area who
may wish take up a bit of my time, drink a beer or whatever during that
period.
Europa XS Mono
Airmaster
914 Rotax
800hrs in service.
Regards
Sue & Bill Sisley
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 914 Fuel Injected Update & Opinion |
If you don't have an engine yet for your project, consider this:
At Sun 'n Fun, I talked with Gunter Rund, an Auto Gyro owner, using
Jason Parker's fuel injected Rotax 914 with intercooler. He is
enthusiastic about it's smooth operation over the entire range and
throttle response. He has nearly 100 hours of trouble free operation so
far. These 914s use military technology from the Predator Drone
program, and Jason converts them to fit the experimental market. The
engine footprint is virtually the same as a stock 914 for tractor
operations (turbo underneath) and pusher operations (turbo on the top
for bed mounting). In the past, Jason's engines required some skill and
attention to detail that limited me from being comfortable with the
setup for just anyone to install. Now that the engine is in its fourth
generation and is set up for user friendly installation, it looks like a
winner.
My involvement, to be honest, has been to give advice on engine mounting
and footprint. I insisted the engine must fit as close as possible to a
stock 914 setup. I spent a number of hours with Jason over the last two
years making the engine fit the Europa and finally it is as close to
plug and play as you can get.
He has gone to a fuel system similar to a Lycoming or Continental
engine. It has a fuel block on the top side of the engine with both the
supply and return lines flared for AN6 fittings. Just install an AN
fitting on an Aeroequip hose with fire sleeve and the firewall forward
is as safe as you can make it. Of course you must follow the
instructions as your fuel filters and fittings must hold up to 40 psi,
so, no cheap fittings or hardware shortcuts South of the pumps can be
tolerated. He's moved the engine wiring to the bottom side of the
manifolds and fuel rails, and properly secured them to make the engine
very easy to inspect and very neat looking. The computer (or computers
for redundancy) for the electronic fuel injection should be protected,
although they are set up for cowl installation (the SDS Fuel injection
system is normally used under the hood in racing) and all the sensor
wiring is plug and play. Each engine is run by him and the fuel map
setup programmed. The SDS programming is a breeze also, plus you can
adjust mixture ratios on the fly based on your fuel octane by a knob on
the panel. (Although this knob should have a resistance lock on it to
prevent inadvertent actuation by a grandson with fast hands.)
He says he is wiling to sell the 914 turbocharged and intercooled
engines for $21000. That's a bargain.
Although I have spent time and money to help develop the idea, I do not
make sales commissions from his engine sales, I just want to see the
idea become a reality because of the great success of the military
version of the 914, and selfishly, I plan to use one on my next project
to give me some better options for efficient operations at altitude. I
just introduced him to the right people and added my inputs, as other
manufacturers and dealers have, in an effort to make his product ideal
for the experimental market. Besides, tuning carbs and needing DOS
computer programs to maintain an engine today seems archaic.
See his new website at:
http://www.extremeaircraftengines.com<http://www.extremeaircraftengines.c
om/>
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations.
Message 3
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| Subject: | 914 Fuel Injected Update & Opinion |
Just wondering if you got any fuel useage figures, and whether there is any
significant difference
in cruise flight useage.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of ALAN YERLY
Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2009 8:04 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Fuel Injected Update & Opinion
If you don't have an engine yet for your project, consider this:
At Sun 'n Fun, I talked with Gunter Rund, an Auto Gyro owner, using Jason
Parker's fuel injected Rotax 914 with intercooler. He is enthusiastic about
it's smooth operation over the entire range and throttle response. He has
nearly 100 hours of trouble free operation so far. These 914s use military
technology from the Predator Drone program, and Jason converts them to fit
the experimental market. The engine footprint is virtually the same as a
stock 914 for tractor operations (turbo underneath) and pusher operations
(turbo on the top for bed mounting). In the past, Jason's engines required
some skill and attention to detail that limited me from being comfortable
with the setup for just anyone to install. Now that the engine is in its
fourth generation and is set up for user friendly installation, it looks
like a winner.
My involvement, to be honest, has been to give advice on engine mounting
and footprint. I insisted the engine must fit as close as possible to a
stock 914 setup. I spent a number of hours with Jason over the last two
years making the engine fit the Europa and finally it is as close to plug
and play as you can get.
He has gone to a fuel system similar to a Lycoming or Continental engine.
It has a fuel block on the top side of the engine with both the supply and
return lines flared for AN6 fittings. Just install an AN fitting on an
Aeroequip hose with fire sleeve and the firewall forward is as safe as you
can make it. Of course you must follow the instructions as your fuel
filters and fittings must hold up to 40 psi, so, no cheap fittings or
hardware shortcuts South of the pumps can be tolerated. He's moved the
engine wiring to the bottom side of the manifolds and fuel rails, and
properly secured them to make the engine very easy to inspect and very neat
looking. The computer (or computers for redundancy) for the electronic fuel
injection should be protected, although they are set up for cowl
installation (the SDS Fuel injection system is normally used under the hood
in racing) and all the sensor wiring is plug and play. Each engine is run
by him and the fuel map setup programmed. The SDS programming is a breeze
also, plus you can adjust mixture ratios on the fly based on your fuel
octane by a knob on the panel. (Although this knob should have a resistance
lock on it to prevent inadvertent actuation by a grandson with fast hands.)
He says he is wiling to sell the 914 turbocharged and intercooled engines
for $21000. That's a bargain.
Although I have spent time and money to help develop the idea, I do not
make sales commissions from his engine sales, I just want to see the idea
become a reality because of the great success of the military version of the
914, and selfishly, I plan to use one on my next project to give me some
better options for efficient operations at altitude. I just introduced him
to the right people and added my inputs, as other manufacturers and dealers
have, in an effort to make his product ideal for the experimental market.
Besides, tuning carbs and needing DOS computer programs to maintain an
engine today seems archaic.
See his new website at: http://www.extremeaircraftengines.com
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 914 Fuel Injected Update & Opinion |
Craig,
Not for aircraft. Just the auto gyro which is running at normal 5-7 gph
depending on throttle setting. What we high speed aircraft are looking
for, is savings at altitude where the Bing really doesn't hack it. Low
altitude won't be that much of a difference. As we see in autos, the
fuel flows for a fuel injected engine are slightly lower than the same
engine in its carbed version. My biggest concern is getting a prop to
absorb the extra power. If you crank the boost down to 3-4 psi (40
inches of MP) verses 5 psi (55 inches), no problem. Crank the boost up
and the gas goes out the back and the prop must be cranked to a very
high pitch to absorb the power, which cuts efficiency. With the Europa
limited to 64 inches of prop (66 max, but watch that nose pant), even
the Airmaster will be maxed out trying to absorb the power.
Personally, a Europa at 34 inches of boost is pretty economical (from
normal Rotax 914 experience). Right now the guys using the Jason Parker
engine are low and slow types (Just Aircraft, Auto Gyro, Titan Tornado,
Kitfox) so they don't care because their airframe is so draggy, they
want takeoff power for high field elevations and mountain crossing
ability. Most of us want the cruise performance and low maintenance.
I am looking for the typical 8- 10% fuel savings fuel injection gives,
so figure a normal 6 gph will be more like 5.5. With our tank it only
makes 20-30 minutes difference in cruise time. See the SDS website
http://www.sdsefi.com/<http://www.sdsefi.com/>. The fuel map done on
the RV-6 with a Subaru, which is a notorious gas hog (I've flown two).
The O-320 conversion flies at 6.5 gph verses a normal 8 gph, when
leaned, and an O-200 at about 4.85 verses 5.5 to 6 with the carb. Not
bad, so 10% is reasonable for a normally aspirated engine.
The nice thing about the turbo is it is inter-cooled, so more efficient.
No operational altitude restriction on the engine. It has adjustable
boost so you can save your engine and fly what I called turbo normalized
with just a few inches of boost and the longevity of the engine will be
much improved, more like a 912 than a 914. I also like the shorter
muffler, which allows a more esthetic exhaust pipe exit for the creative
builder. The alternator on the rear makes maintenance of the belt a
snap. No prop removal, and any Denso will work. Like any other
alternator, do put an over-voltage protection device on it as it puts
out 55 amps and if the internal regulator goes out it can fry your
electrics. Jason even manufactures a mount ready to bolt to the gear
frame of the Europa (about two inches shorter because his ring mount is
slightly farther aft for the alternator) so the footprint fits our cowl
nearly perfectly. EFI does require competent wiring skills. Use good
quality PIDG connectors and ensure proper strain relief. One bad ground
and the system is dead. Two fuel pumps is a must, and a backup battery
for one system may be useful. Finally, there is the safety of knowing
the SDS electronics will retard the spark and fuel flow to prevent over
speed and or over boost. If the waste gate sticks on my 914, it will
over boost and as others have found, blow a cylinder or two. If my next
deal doesn't work out I will probably take the top off my 914 and put on
Jason's system and hook the vacuum dash pot to the existing turbo arm.
We will have to wait for the Europa owners to get flying and see what
the actual fuel flows for our plane and prop combinations are.
I just spent two days troubleshooting another 914 with problems. Good
news is my DOS programming skills came back, and the electronic
troubleshooting program didn't tell me a thing about how to tweak the
engine back to working normal. With the SDS EFI it works or it doesn't.
Once the engine is mapped (which Jason's done) just check you have oil
pressure, fuel pressure, spark, and fire it up, it will run.
Just my opinion. But I'm biased.
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: craig bastin<mailto:craigb@onthenet.com.au>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 6:27 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 Fuel Injected Update & Opinion
Just wondering if you got any fuel useage figures, and whether there
is any significant difference
in cruise flight useage.
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-europa-list-server@ma
tronics.com> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
ALAN YERLY
Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2009 8:04 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Fuel Injected Update & Opinion
If you don't have an engine yet for your project, consider this:
At Sun 'n Fun, I talked with Gunter Rund, an Auto Gyro owner, using
Jason Parker's fuel injected Rotax 914 with intercooler. He is
enthusiastic about it's smooth operation over the entire range and
throttle response. He has nearly 100 hours of trouble free operation so
far. These 914s use military technology from the Predator Drone
program, and Jason converts them to fit the experimental market. The
engine footprint is virtually the same as a stock 914 for tractor
operations (turbo underneath) and pusher operations (turbo on the top
for bed mounting). In the past, Jason's engines required some skill and
attention to detail that limited me from being comfortable with the
setup for just anyone to install. Now that the engine is in its fourth
generation and is set up for user friendly installation, it looks like a
winner.
My involvement, to be honest, has been to give advice on engine
mounting and footprint. I insisted the engine must fit as close as
possible to a stock 914 setup. I spent a number of hours with Jason
over the last two years making the engine fit the Europa and finally it
is as close to plug and play as you can get.
He has gone to a fuel system similar to a Lycoming or Continental
engine. It has a fuel block on the top side of the engine with both the
supply and return lines flared for AN6 fittings. Just install an AN
fitting on an Aeroequip hose with fire sleeve and the firewall forward
is as safe as you can make it. Of course you must follow the
instructions as your fuel filters and fittings must hold up to 40 psi,
so, no cheap fittings or hardware shortcuts South of the pumps can be
tolerated. He's moved the engine wiring to the bottom side of the
manifolds and fuel rails, and properly secured them to make the engine
very easy to inspect and very neat looking. The computer (or computers
for redundancy) for the electronic fuel injection should be protected,
although they are set up for cowl installation (the SDS Fuel injection
system is normally used under the hood in racing) and all the sensor
wiring is plug and play. Each engine is run by him and the fuel map
setup programmed. The SDS programming is a breeze also, plus you can
adjust mixture ratios on the fly based on your fuel octane by a knob on
the panel. (Although this knob should have a resistance lock on it to
prevent inadvertent actuation by a grandson with fast hands.)
He says he is wiling to sell the 914 turbocharged and intercooled
engines for $21000. That's a bargain.
Although I have spent time and money to help develop the idea, I do
not make sales commissions from his engine sales, I just want to see
the idea become a reality because of the great success of the military
version of the 914, and selfishly, I plan to use one on my next project
to give me some better options for efficient operations at altitude. I
just introduced him to the right people and added my inputs, as other
manufacturers and dealers have, in an effort to make his product ideal
for the experimental market. Besides, tuning carbs and needing DOS
computer programs to maintain an engine today seems archaic.
See his new website at:
http://www.extremeaircraftengines.com<http://www.extremeaircraftengines.c
om/>
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Europa-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 5
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| Subject: | 914 Fuel Injected Update & Opinion |
Gee a very detailed response indeed. With regard to the prop issues, maybe
have a look at the new Bolly VP prop
the testing they have done was up to 160hp at 30 degrees of pitch, the
series 5 props could also suit.
I have emailed them about a release date but they are yet to reply
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of ALAN YERLY
Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2009 1:42 PM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Fuel Injected Update & Opinion
Craig,
Not for aircraft. Just the auto gyro which is running at normal 5-7 gph
depending on throttle setting. What we high speed aircraft are looking for,
is savings at altitude where the Bing really doesn't hack it. Low altitude
won't be that much of a difference. As we see in autos, the fuel flows for
a fuel injected engine are slightly lower than the same engine in its carbed
version. My biggest concern is getting a prop to absorb the extra power.
If you crank the boost down to 3-4 psi (40 inches of MP) verses 5 psi (55
inches), no problem. Crank the boost up and the gas goes out the back and
the prop must be cranked to a very high pitch to absorb the power, which
cuts efficiency. With the Europa limited to 64 inches of prop (66 max, but
watch that nose pant), even the Airmaster will be maxed out trying to absorb
the power.
Personally, a Europa at 34 inches of boost is pretty economical (from
normal Rotax 914 experience). Right now the guys using the Jason Parker
engine are low and slow types (Just Aircraft, Auto Gyro, Titan Tornado,
Kitfox) so they don't care because their airframe is so draggy, they want
takeoff power for high field elevations and mountain crossing ability. Most
of us want the cruise performance and low maintenance.
I am looking for the typical 8- 10% fuel savings fuel injection gives, so
figure a normal 6 gph will be more like 5.5. With our tank it only makes
20-30 minutes difference in cruise time. See the SDS website
http://www.sdsefi.com/. The fuel map done on the RV-6 with a Subaru, which
is a notorious gas hog (I've flown two). The O-320 conversion flies at 6.5
gph verses a normal 8 gph, when leaned, and an O-200 at about 4.85 verses
5.5 to 6 with the carb. Not bad, so 10% is reasonable for a normally
aspirated engine.
The nice thing about the turbo is it is inter-cooled, so more efficient.
No operational altitude restriction on the engine. It has adjustable boost
so you can save your engine and fly what I called turbo normalized with just
a few inches of boost and the longevity of the engine will be much improved,
more like a 912 than a 914. I also like the shorter muffler, which allows a
more esthetic exhaust pipe exit for the creative builder. The alternator on
the rear makes maintenance of the belt a snap. No prop removal, and any
Denso will work. Like any other alternator, do put an over-voltage
protection device on it as it puts out 55 amps and if the internal regulator
goes out it can fry your electrics. Jason even manufactures a mount ready
to bolt to the gear frame of the Europa (about two inches shorter because
his ring mount is slightly farther aft for the alternator) so the footprint
fits our cowl nearly perfectly. EFI does require competent wiring skills.
Use good quality PIDG connectors and ensure proper strain relief. One bad
ground and the system is dead. Two fuel pumps is a must, and a backup
battery for one system may be useful. Finally, there is the safety of
knowing the SDS electronics will retard the spark and fuel flow to prevent
over speed and or over boost. If the waste gate sticks on my 914, it will
over boost and as others have found, blow a cylinder or two. If my next
deal doesn't work out I will probably take the top off my 914 and put on
Jason's system and hook the vacuum dash pot to the existing turbo arm.
We will have to wait for the Europa owners to get flying and see what the
actual fuel flows for our plane and prop combinations are.
I just spent two days troubleshooting another 914 with problems. Good
news is my DOS programming skills came back, and the electronic
troubleshooting program didn't tell me a thing about how to tweak the engine
back to working normal. With the SDS EFI it works or it doesn't. Once the
engine is mapped (which Jason's done) just check you have oil pressure, fuel
pressure, spark, and fire it up, it will run.
Just my opinion. But I'm biased.
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: craig bastin
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 6:27 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 Fuel Injected Update & Opinion
Just wondering if you got any fuel useage figures, and whether there is
any significant difference
in cruise flight useage.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of ALAN YERLY
Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2009 8:04 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Fuel Injected Update & Opinion
If you don't have an engine yet for your project, consider this:
At Sun 'n Fun, I talked with Gunter Rund, an Auto Gyro owner, using
Jason Parker's fuel injected Rotax 914 with intercooler. He is enthusiastic
about it's smooth operation over the entire range and throttle response. He
has nearly 100 hours of trouble free operation so far. These 914s use
military technology from the Predator Drone program, and Jason converts them
to fit the experimental market. The engine footprint is virtually the same
as a stock 914 for tractor operations (turbo underneath) and pusher
operations (turbo on the top for bed mounting). In the past, Jason's
engines required some skill and attention to detail that limited me from
being comfortable with the setup for just anyone to install. Now that the
engine is in its fourth generation and is set up for user friendly
installation, it looks like a winner.
My involvement, to be honest, has been to give advice on engine
mounting and footprint. I insisted the engine must fit as close as possible
to a stock 914 setup. I spent a number of hours with Jason over the last
two years making the engine fit the Europa and finally it is as close to
plug and play as you can get.
He has gone to a fuel system similar to a Lycoming or Continental
engine. It has a fuel block on the top side of the engine with both the
supply and return lines flared for AN6 fittings. Just install an AN fitting
on an Aeroequip hose with fire sleeve and the firewall forward is as safe as
you can make it. Of course you must follow the instructions as your fuel
filters and fittings must hold up to 40 psi, so, no cheap fittings or
hardware shortcuts South of the pumps can be tolerated. He's moved the
engine wiring to the bottom side of the manifolds and fuel rails, and
properly secured them to make the engine very easy to inspect and very neat
looking. The computer (or computers for redundancy) for the electronic fuel
injection should be protected, although they are set up for cowl
installation (the SDS Fuel injection system is normally used under the hood
in racing) and all the sensor wiring is plug and play. Each engine is run
by him and the fuel map setup programmed. The SDS programming is a breeze
also, plus you can adjust mixture ratios on the fly based on your fuel
octane by a knob on the panel. (Although this knob should have a resistance
lock on it to prevent inadvertent actuation by a grandson with fast hands.)
He says he is wiling to sell the 914 turbocharged and intercooled
engines for $21000. That's a bargain.
Although I have spent time and money to help develop the idea, I do
not make sales commissions from his engine sales, I just want to see the
idea become a reality because of the great success of the military version
of the 914, and selfishly, I plan to use one on my next project to give me
some better options for efficient operations at altitude. I just introduced
him to the right people and added my inputs, as other manufacturers and
dealers have, in an effort to make his product ideal for the experimental
market. Besides, tuning carbs and needing DOS computer programs to
maintain an engine today seems archaic.
See his new website at: http://www.extremeaircraftengines.com
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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