---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/15/09: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:13 AM - Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? (rparigoris) 2. 01:18 AM - Re: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? (craig bastin) 3. 02:18 AM - Re: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? () 4. 03:43 AM - Re: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? (G-IANI) 5. 05:44 AM - Re: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? (Paul McAllister) 6. 06:00 AM - Re: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? (Karl Heindl) 7. 06:16 AM - Re: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? (rampil) 8. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? (Karl Heindl) 9. 10:02 AM - Re: Tri-gear wheel fairing (Frans Veldman) 10. 11:43 AM - Re: Tri-gear wheel fairing (Fred Klein) 11. 11:47 AM - Re: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? (Fred Klein) 12. 01:05 PM - Re: Tri-gear wheel fairing (ALAN YERLY) 13. 01:44 PM - Re: Tri-gear wheel fairing (Frans Veldman) 14. 01:54 PM - Re: Tri-gear wheel fairing (Frans Veldman) 15. 04:54 PM - Re: Tri-gear wheel fairing (craig bastin) 16. 05:55 PM - Re: Tri-gear wheel fairing (Fred Klein) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:13:57 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? From: "rparigoris" At moment in process of mounting instrument panel. Any ideas on how to make a ramp/guide/shelf near lower mounting to aid installiation would be appreciated. Thx. Ron Parigoris Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:18:03 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? One way I saw, and copied was to put a narrow lip around the inside of the panel and then fix bolts into the lip so they protrude through the firewall from the inside, that way the bolts are concealed and it is easy to put nuts on the firewall side. you can then just slide the panel in and spin a nut on with the other hand. One thing i would suggest is you make a cardboard template to drill the holes in both the firewall and the panel lip or you may have problems lining up the holes for the bolts craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of rparigoris Sent: Friday, 15 May 2009 5:02 PM Subject: Europa-List: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? At moment in process of mounting instrument panel. Any ideas on how to make a ramp/guide/shelf near lower mounting to aid installiation would be appreciated. Thx. Ron Parigoris Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 17:54:00 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:18:14 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: Europa-List: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? I used cotton reel exhaust mountings, circular rubber mounts with a threaded stud each side, Two main benefits are slightly more room for Avionic fittings And a complete shock mounted instrument panel, Regards Ivor ---- craig bastin wrote: > > One way I saw, and copied was to put a narrow lip around the inside of the > panel and then fix bolts into the lip > so they protrude through the firewall from the inside, that way the bolts > are concealed and it is easy to put nuts > on the firewall side. you can then just slide the panel in and spin a nut on > with the other hand. One thing i would > suggest is you make a cardboard template to drill the holes in both the > firewall and the panel lip or you may have > problems lining up the holes for the bolts > > craig > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of rparigoris > Sent: Friday, 15 May 2009 5:02 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware > alignment? > > > > At moment in process of mounting instrument panel. > > Any ideas on how to make a ramp/guide/shelf near lower mounting to aid > installiation would be appreciated. > > Thx. > Ron Parigoris > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 17:54:00 > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:43:58 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? Ron What Craig has described is set out as LAA Standard Mod 10402. This is available on the Club site. I have "guide rails" on which the panel slides as you install it. This was achieved by having the lower area over the tunnel attached to the tunnel (not the panel). The benefit of this is that my mag switch, choke and all the leads to my EIS stay in place when you remove the panel. Have a look at the picture. It was a lot of work to create this but it works well. If you are interested e-mail me of the forum and I can send you more details. Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 200 hours Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.comththe ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:50 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? From: Paul McAllister Hi Ron, There are a couple of pictures on my site http://www.europa.net.nz/363/index.html of my instrument panel. Try looking under 2000, August & December. A few more can be found in Jan & May 2001 and Dec & June 2002. Unfortunately my site works best with Internet Explorer, sorry about that. You can see how I made and internal flange with captive nuts on the inside. This allowed me to bolt the whole thing on with metal threads fixed through the fire wall from the engine compartment. You can also see the removable sub panels which allow me to pull either the avionics or instrument stack separately. I have access panels in the fire wall that I made from the same material as the firewall. I used some 20 mm nylon spacers to move the panel assembly forward. I am glad I did as most avionics take the full depth available. The main issue I have with the Europa panel is that it is not deep enough and there isn't much internal volume available for installing things that don't need to be on the front of the panel. It also weighs a lot. If I was to have my life over again.. gee don't we all say that.. I would do something similar to Bob Jacobson and Cliff did, make a new one that was deeper, went the full width of the airplane and incorporated the internal cooling vents. I remember Bob telling me that his new panel even weighed two pounds less. In conclusion, although I have done things like add access through the fire wall and removable sub panels, it still isn't an easy task when I need to do work inside the panel. Cheers, Paul. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:40 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? Ron=2C One thing I did was to mount two aluminum angles against the firewall. The instrument module then rests on this ledge while you put your first mountin g screws in. I also made an inner flange along the top of the module to con ceal the screws on the cockpit side. Karl > Subject: Europa-List: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alig nment? > From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us > Date: Fri=2C 15 May 2009 10:02:01 +0300 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > us> > > At moment in process of mounting instrument panel. > > Any ideas on how to make a ramp/guide/shelf near lower mounting to aid in stalliation would be appreciated. > > Thx. > Ron Parigoris > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:05 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? From: "rampil" An extra shelf or mounting bracket is unnecessary. The panel does quite well hanging on the top bolts and resting on the tunnel. I would not close the gap between the bottom panel and the firewall because it aids ventilation. My panel does not move or vibrate even during 3-4g akro. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=244117#244117 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:46 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? Ira=2C You are probably right. But my 'shelf' is an aid when installing/removing a very awkward module without anyone helping you. And I do have a gap at the bottom=2C caused by rubber spacers for all screw s=2C top and bottom. Karl > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? > From: ira.rampil@gmail.com > Date: Fri=2C 15 May 2009 06:15:22 -0700 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > > An extra shelf or mounting bracket is unnecessary. The panel does > quite well hanging on the top bolts and resting on the tunnel. I would > not close the gap between the bottom panel and the firewall because > it aids ventilation. My panel does not move or vibrate even during 3-4g > akro. > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=244117#244117 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:02:42 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear wheel fairing ALAN YERLY wrote: > Frans, Yes it is wonky, and it is not your fault. I've done probably > 5 sets and helped three or four customer and they are all the same. Thanks very much for your confirmation. Now that I know that the fairings are not going to be right if I follow the manual, I started to experiment a little. By coincidence, I found the secret! Actually, it is very simple to get these things straight. The ONLY thing you need to do, is to leave a gap on the bottom of the port flange. This will make the fairing straight, viewed from all angles! No heating necessary, no cutting needed at the bottom, no filling at the top, nothing. The only thing you will have to do is to extend the port flange a little bit to attach the bottom anchor nut, and use some expancel to fill the gap. It seems that the only error the factory made was to cut the port side of the front half at the wrong angle. About the pictures: Keep in mind that this is preliminary fitting. Even the anchor nuts are not attached, the bolts are just inserted through the holes to keep everything temporary in place. (Should have used cleco's for this, but I already drilled the holes before I discovered that these fairings are wonky). The white shaft you see is my 2 inch nose wheel shaft extension, to allow for a larger prop. The metal ring you see just above the wheel spat is the fork, and is very usefull to provide a straight reference. Then, for the folks curious about my nose wheel shaft extension, cowling mod, and prop, a picture of the entire nose section. Again, this is far from finished, but gives an idea how it will look like when all is finished. -- Frans Veldman ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:13 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear wheel fairing On May 15, 2009, at 9:58 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > It seems that the only error the factory made was to cut the port side > of the front half at the wrong angle. > > About the pictures: > Keep in mind that this is preliminary fitting. Even the anchor nuts > are > not attached, the bolts are just inserted through the holes to keep > everything temporary in place. (Should have used cleco's for this, > but I > already drilled the holes before I discovered that these fairings are > wonky). > > The white shaft you see is my 2 inch nose wheel shaft extension, to > allow for a larger prop. Frans, Nice crisp and clear explanation of a simple solution to the nose gear fairing. And your prop looks great...[at first glance, I thought I saw some de- icing boots on its leading edge...:-) ]. May I ask what your prop diameter is? Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:10 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Any ideas how to aid instrument panel hardware alignment? On May 15, 2009, at 12:02 AM, rparigoris wrote: > Any ideas on how to make a ramp/guide/shelf near lower mounting to > aid installiation would be appreciated. Ron, If your question concerns facilitating alignment of bolt holes when positioning the instrument panel module, you might consider (after bolting the panel in place) making some splash molds along the port and starboard underside between module and fuselage sides. The module would rest on these as you install the module and push it forward into place...simple, out of the way, light weight. Though I've beefed up the forward flange and installed about 10 vibration/isolation bolts, you raise an issue I've yet to address...not sure how big of a concern it will be... Good luck, Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:28 PM PST US From: "ALAN YERLY" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear wheel fairing Looks great, I never thought of that Frans, looks fast and easy. Good job, Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Frans Veldman To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 12:58 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear wheel fairing ALAN YERLY wrote: > Frans, Yes it is wonky, and it is not your fault. I've done probably > 5 sets and helped three or four customer and they are all the same. Thanks very much for your confirmation. Now that I know that the fairings are not going to be right if I follow the manual, I started to experiment a little. By coincidence, I found the secret! Actually, it is very simple to get these things straight. The ONLY thing you need to do, is to leave a gap on the bottom of the port flange. This will make the fairing straight, viewed from all angles! No heating necessary, no cutting needed at the bottom, no filling at the top, nothing. The only thing you will have to do is to extend the port flange a little bit to attach the bottom anchor nut, and use some expancel to fill the gap. It seems that the only error the factory made was to cut the port side of the front half at the wrong angle. About the pictures: Keep in mind that this is preliminary fitting. Even the anchor nuts are not attached, the bolts are just inserted through the holes to keep everything temporary in place. (Should have used cleco's for this, but I already drilled the holes before I discovered that these fairings are wonky). The white shaft you see is my 2 inch nose wheel shaft extension, to allow for a larger prop. The metal ring you see just above the wheel spat is the fork, and is very usefull to provide a straight reference. Then, for the folks curious about my nose wheel shaft extension, cowling mod, and prop, a picture of the entire nose section. Again, this is far from finished, but gives an idea how it will look like when all is finished. -- Frans Veldman ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:32 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear wheel fairing Fred Klein wrote: > May I ask what your prop diameter is? 1720mm (that is 67.5"). I have choosen this prop for optimum cruise performance. Large diameter = high efficiency. 2 blades versus 3 blades = slightly smaller take off performance, but above 70 knots much more efficient. And, last but not least, the inner section has very much twist. Again, during the early stage of the take off this inner section probably stalls, but at higher speeds it produces lots of thrust. The inboard section of conventional props most likely produces no thrust a cruise speeds, or even negative thrust. Of course, all of this is so far still theoretical. Once I'm finally flying, I will collect some performance data. -- Frans Veldman ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:48 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear wheel fairing ALAN YERLY wrote: > Looks great, I never thought of that Frans, looks fast and easy. I didn't think of that as well. I was just wondering whether I could force the front half somewhat in the correct direction. To do this, I attached the starboard side of the front half fairing to the rear half of the fairing, to be able to bend the port side, and then discovered that I could get the correct shape, without any bending, but at the cost of creating a gap at the port seal. If you try to close this gap, the fairing twists and takes its odd shape again. Leave it alone, and all is right. I love to think out solutions, but this one is really a coincidence, not the result of thinking. Next time you prepare a speed kit, try it, and let me know if it works out the same for you. I think it is a shame that it isn't covered in the manual. These parts are not really a bargain, I somehow expected that the manual is adjusted to the experiences of builders (and preferably, not only the manual but the parts as well). -- Frans Veldman ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:37 PM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tri-gear wheel fairing Fred and Frans, may I humbly refer you to the following link with regard to prop choice etc After going through this article I am opting for a smaller 4 blade prop, probably around 60 inches. http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-02_elippse.asp -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: Saturday, 16 May 2009 6:39 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear wheel fairing Fred Klein wrote: > May I ask what your prop diameter is? 1720mm (that is 67.5"). I have choosen this prop for optimum cruise performance. Large diameter = high efficiency. 2 blades versus 3 blades = slightly smaller take off performance, but above 70 knots much more efficient. And, last but not least, the inner section has very much twist. Again, during the early stage of the take off this inner section probably stalls, but at higher speeds it produces lots of thrust. The inboard section of conventional props most likely produces no thrust a cruise speeds, or even negative thrust. Of course, all of this is so far still theoretical. Once I'm finally flying, I will collect some performance data. -- Frans Veldman Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 17:54:00 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:04 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear wheel fairing On May 15, 2009, at 4:54 PM, craig bastin wrote: > > > > Fred and Frans, may I humbly refer you to the following link with > regard to > prop choice etc > After going through this article I am opting for a smaller 4 blade > prop, > probably around 60 inches. > > http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-02_elippse.asp Hi Craig...humility helps when one suggests something other than a CS prop for our beloved Europas...I too have been intrigued by the Ellipse props and talked them up a bit a couple of years ago after learning of Paul Lupps' interest in designing something for the Europa. Glenn Crowder may chime in here as he's said he's ordered a Lipps prop for his monowheel. Since Paul's interest is in prop design (rather than marketing ir making props), an RV guy named Jim Smith has volunteered to handle purchasing paperwork. Jim's email is: elippsefppropsales@gmail.com .. Depending on your powerplant and other considerations, Paul will do a design for you, even as a "one off" project. Craig Catto manufactures Paul's props...Craig's been around...I first tracked him down in the '70's when, as an audacious 15 yr. old, he was carving props in his garage. Good luck w/ your 4 blader, Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.