---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/04/09: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:20 AM - Re: Rotax 914 "what if" (Frans Veldman) 2. 01:33 AM - Re: Rotax 914 "what if" (Jan de Jong) 3. 02:03 AM - Re: Rotax 914 "what if" (Mike Gregory) 4. 05:27 AM - Re: Europa Classic Exhaust system (Richard Scanlan) 5. 06:37 AM - Rotax 914 "what if" (Remi Guerner) 6. 07:38 AM - Re: Rotax 914 "what if" (Cori Hayth) 7. 08:46 AM - Re: Stall Warners (zwakie) 8. 08:46 AM - UK and Europe Fly in Event. (Robert C Harrison) 9. 08:49 AM - Re: Rotax 914 "what if" (Frans Veldman) 10. 09:55 AM - Re: Rotax 914 "what if" (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 11. 10:10 AM - Re: Re: Stall Warners (David Joyce) 12. 01:07 PM - Re: Europa Classic Exhaust system (Duncan & Ami McFadyean) 13. 02:48 PM - Re: Rotax 914 "what if" (Cori Hayth) 14. 03:46 PM - Re: Rotax 914 "what if" (Frans Veldman) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:20:12 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 "what if" rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: > I have aOdyssey PC545 battery and a > total los 2200mA NiMh emergency battery. There is also a SD20S with a LR3C > sitting on the vacuum pad. I also have an E-bus. Thx. for the input. > > I too think that if the regulator fails, internal Rotax generator > will not run a fuel pump. > > Anyway, my "what if" is > when flying with lots of fuel and not too much in the way of > landing areas I get some severe smoke in cockpit thought to be electrical > in nature. Well, with a totally separated dual setup (as you could have as well, as you also have dual alternators), it is just a matter of finding out the bad system which should not cost more than two seconds (you do have an amp-gauge, do you?) , and keeping the healthy system on and running the associated pump. Any additional complexity will only increase the failure points. > Thus my "what if" > question is can I extend the range of my total loss battery by turning on > and off the fuel pump? Sure, there are several things you can do. There is no magic number in duty cycle here, as it depends on the state of the fuel filters, altitude, power setting, etc. You can run the pump on a 50%-50% duty cycle and see what happens, and adjust the duty cycle accordingly. Better would it be to use a feed-back system, using the return flow as an indication how much electricity you can safely spare. You can also make a switched power supply for the fuel pump, and run it on reduced voltage, again adjusting the fuel pump power related to the fuel return flow. But I feel that all this kind of trickery will only increase the chances of failure. What's wrong with two totally separated systems, each with its own alternator, battery and fuel pump? This eliminates every single failure point. You are already almost there, with two fuel pumps and two alternators. Just add a second battery (I use two 8Ah batteries, so essentially I have just split the normal battery into two smaller ones so I have no weight penalty), and of course a second main power switch. Once you are there, it is easy to use the additional redundancy everywhere. I have the CHT's and coolant temperature indicators each on a separate bus. Just like the NAV and GPS. And the attitude indicator and turn indicator. Etc. I can loose an entire bus without too much worries, will always keep at least one fuel pump, some navigation instruments, and some engine instruments (enough to locate and reach the nearest landing strip). It is so easy to set it up like this, once you have two fuel pumps and two alternators anyway. Oh, and just in case I experience multiple failures (suddenly fuel pump A stops, and alternator B dies as well) I have a last card to play: a cross-over switch between both buses which essentially ties both buses together. Of course this violates the dual setup approach, so it is only used in a genuine emergency, if no other options remain. It is a "all or nothing" last resort. BTW This is not intended as a "my system is better than yours" but an invitation to either shoot bullets in my approach, so I can fix any overlookings and improve my system, or to help you to improve your system. -- Frans Veldman ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:33:51 AM PST US From: Jan de Jong Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 "what if" Hi Ron, You are asking a carburetion question. When you stop the fuel pump the pressure across the carburettor fuel input valve goes from positive (5 psi I believe) to negative actual boost pressure I would think. I would guess that the only way to keep the engine running is by removing all boost and even then you would have extremely low fuel pressure. All in all I would not like to count on it working. Regards, Jan de Jong ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:53 AM PST US From: "Mike Gregory" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Rotax 914 "what if" The pressure from the fuel pump is needed to get the fuel into the carburettor. Once the fuel is in the float bowl, the engine will be able to use it whatever the boost pressure until the float bowl runs dry. Regards, Mike Europa Club Safety Officer -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan de Jong Sent: 04 June 2009 09:36 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 "what if" Hi Ron, You are asking a carburetion question. When you stop the fuel pump the pressure across the carburettor fuel input valve goes from positive (5 psi I believe) to negative actual boost pressure I would think. I would guess that the only way to keep the engine running is by removing all boost and even then you would have extremely low fuel pressure. All in all I would not like to count on it working. Regards, Jan de Jong ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:41 AM PST US From: "Richard Scanlan" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Classic Exhaust system OK, let me clarify. CKT DID make the classic systems but I believe they just copied a system already in existence and supplied to them by Europa. They only got to make their design mark when they developed the XS system which is currently in use in some eight other Rotax powered designs. When I say design flaws I mean it is not considered to be a great piece of work,(by CKT, not I) a little overweight maybe, but if you run a classic this is what you are obliged to fit to the aeroplane. Also consider that an exhaust, stainless or otherwise, is a consumable as is your car exhaust. I have just spoken to CKT and they are happy to consider a small batch run of maybe four to six systems, which can then be purchased from me. I have no interest in making any money from this but will need to cover postage costs. I'm Ok to do this if it serves the Europa community, especially those state side. Chris said he will dig out the original drawings and come back with a system price which I will post on the forum. In the meantime can anybody who may be interested in a system please let me know as I will have to let CKT know the amount of interest. Richard Scanlan #103 classic (fortunately with XS firewall forward) -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Christoph Both Sent: 03 June 2009 19:29 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Classic Exhaust system What were the inherent design flaws of the Classic Exhaust? Christoph Both #223 Wolfville Nova Scotia Canada -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Scanlan Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:19 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Classic Exhaust system Hi Bill, You can contact CKT (Chris Piper) although they are NOT the manufacturers of the classic exhausts. CKT designed and developed the XS system. I know Chris well and that they have shyed away from copying the classic system due to it's inherent design flaws. Send them a mail or alternatively contact me off forum. Richard Scanlan #103 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Henderson Sent: 03 June 2009 13:52 Subject: Europa-List: Europa Classic Exhaust system I am looking for an exhaust system for a Classic Europa, new, used, or junk. I contacted Europa to get ordering information and John replied saying they have found it almost impossible for them to get one manufactured. Anyone have any suggestions? Converting to an XS firewall forward at this time would be costly. Thanks, Bill Henderson A010 Monowheel Classic (still building) Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 05:53:00 -- We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. The Professional version does not have this message Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 05:53:00 -- We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. The Professional version does not have this message ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:55 AM PST US From: "Remi Guerner" Subject: Europa-List: Rotax 914 "what if" Ron, The 914 would probably be able to run for a few minutes without fuel pressure, until the carb bowls are empty, provided that the manifold pressure is below ambient pressure. This MP would therefore depend on altitude. Any manifold pressure higher than ambient pressure would push the fuel back to the tank and the engine would quit as soon as the fuel pump is turned off. Then the low MP may allow the engine to come back to life. Regards Remi Guerner >>>>To extend flight can you turn on pump to fill float bowls then turn off pump till engine sags, and turn on etc. etc. etc instead of letting pump just run? 2nd half of question is if the answer to above is yes, what might be the optimal MP to use?<<<<<<<<< ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:37 AM PST US From: Cori Hayth Subject: RE: Europa-List: Rotax 914 "what if" That's why you should consider redundant charging systems. A second alternator and regulator. While in phase 1 flight testing I ran the main tank dry to see what it's like to switch the fuel selector to reserve and restart. While running just 1 pump it sure seemed like a long time to restart, and that was at 3,000' over the airport! I have not tested your "what if". Kevin Europa XS Mono-Wheel Inter-cooled Rotax 914 Airmaster Prop On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 9:22 AM , rparigoris wrote: > > > "What if" for some reason you can't land and need to fight gravity for > a long time with a charging system that has quit. > > You are runing on battery alone to run a fuel pump. > > To extend flight can you turn on pump to fill float bowls > then turn off pump till engine sags, and turn on etc. etc. etc instead > of letting pump just run? > > 2nd half of question is if the answer to above is yes, what might be > the optimal MP to use? > > Thanking in advance. > Ron Parigoris > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:03 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Stall Warners From: "zwakie" Thanks all. I had to go to my bird today (so might as well have not popped the question ;) ) and checked the part-number of the switch. For future reference to others, these are the numbers printed on the switch: [b:57a6581896]RS 317-443 0.5A 250V AC (288)[/b:57a6581896] Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:51 AM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: Europa-List: UK and Europe Fly in Event. Hi! All I recently reminded all about the Wickenby Wings and Wheels Event on the 20th and 21st June. I omitted to publish the need to PPR on 01673 885000 please. http://www.wickenbyairfield.com/www/ Regards Bob Harrison ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:19 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 "what if" Cori Hayth wrote: > While in phase 1 flight testing I ran the main tank dry to see what it's > like to switch the fuel selector to reserve and restart. While running > just 1 pump it sure seemed like a long time to restart, and that was at > 3,000' over the airport! I did some tests too, but without flying. I found, to my astonishment, that selecting the reserve tank by itself doesn't solve the problem. If I don't turn the secondary fuel pump on at the same time, the fuel pressure won't come up, probably because the primary pump sucked air in, and with the low fuel level, the fuel will not by itself flow to the pump. So, I tested what happens when you run the main tank dry with both fuel pumps on. As you can guess, both fuel pumps swallow air, and after switching to reserve, it takes a very very long time before they develop fuel pressure again. So, better not to forget to switch off the secondary fuel pump when not needed. Oh, and the order is also important: first select the reserve tank, and only then switch on the second fuel pump! -- Frans Veldman ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 "what if" From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Frans and all First I have a request from group. If someone is comfortable, if you don't mindcould you try in cruise with a 914 turning on and off fuel pump and report how long engine will run till it slumps and how long it takes to fill carb back up for another cycle. Again if you don't mind try with slight lower than ambient MP and higher. I believe that because airbox pressure is plumbed to the sealed float bowls that even if the needle valve opened and some air pushed backwards through it, motor will run till float bowls are dry. In other words i think airbox plumbing can overcome needle valve leak. I suspect that one side of engine will slump before the other. Frans as far as having two separate systems as you have, if the cockpit filled with smoke thought to be electrical in nature, which system would you turn off? I am a reasonable troubleshooter, and anythingI fly, I make sure Iam intimate with working of my machine and try and armchair different scenarios. There is nothing wrong with having a dual system as you have, just to make second side nice and worthwhile you need a second battery that is heavier thanI care for. BTW on my system I have on the passenger headrest an Anderson power pole connector that I can easily plug in any batteryI wish to, including a lead acid and have, or not have it hooked to charging system. My approach is stone simple for smoke in cockpit thought to be electrical in nature, shut down everything, run one pump on a separate battery if feasible and land. If not feasible then try e-bus with alternator and generator shut down and go from there. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:38 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Stall Warners Marcel The part is indeed available from RS Cpmponents. Also try adjusting it with screwdriver, and check to make sure you have not pulled off the pipe by accident and replaced it onto the wrong nozzle (its easily done, I did it when I fitted it).. rgds Dave Joyce ----- Original Message ----- From: "zwakie" Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:29 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Stall Warners > > Thanks all. > > I had to go to my bird today (so might as well have not popped the > question ;) ) and checked the part-number of the switch. > > For future reference to others, these are the numbers printed on the > switch: > > [b:57a6581896]RS 317-443 > 0.5A 250V AC > (288)[/b:57a6581896] > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:03 PM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Classic Exhaust system FYI, the original Classic exhaust was developed for Europa by Micron Exhausts, one of the better motorbike aftermarket exhaust designers/manufacturers in the UK. The "flaw", if there was one, was unequal header lengths between back and front cylinders. This is a feat that the CKT effort achieves too. Also the weight as a consequence partly of the heavy gauge stainless used, and the poor selection of material for the headers (mild steel). It was however beautifully quiet, much quieter than the CKT, which itself was not without early problems. Duncan McF do not archive > > >> >> ..........inherent design flaws in the Classic exhaust system? First >> I've heard of that! What kind of flaws? Is this a safety issue? I >> wasn't aware there was any difference between the Classic and XS exhaust >> systems. >> >> Garry Stout >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Richard Scanlan" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 2:19 PM >> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Classic Exhaust system >> >> >>> >>> >>> Hi Bill, >>> You can contact CKT (Chris Piper) although they are NOT the >>> manufacturers >>> of the classic exhausts. CKT designed and developed the XS system. I >>> know >>> Chris well and that they have shyed away from copying the classic system >>> due >>> to it's inherent design flaws. Send them a mail or alternatively contact >>> me >>> off forum. >>> >>> Richard Scanlan >>> #103 >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill >>> Henderson >>> Sent: 03 June 2009 13:52 >>> To: europa-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Europa-List: Europa Classic Exhaust system >>> >>> >>> >>> I am looking for an exhaust system for a Classic Europa, new, used, or >>> junk. >>> >>> I contacted Europa to get ordering information and John replied saying >>> they >>> have found it almost impossible for them to get one manufactured. >>> >>> Anyone have any suggestions? Converting to an XS firewall forward at >>> this >>> time would be costly. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Bill Henderson >>> A010 Monowheel Classic >>> (still building) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> 05:53:00 >>> >>> >>> -- >>> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >>> >>> The Professional version does not have this message >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:52 PM PST US From: Cori Hayth Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 "what if" That makes sense. I had not thought that out. Thanks, Kevin Europa XS Mono-Wheel Inter-cooled Rotax 914 Airmaster Prop On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 7:37 AM , Frans Veldman wrote:> Oh, and the order is also important: first select the reserve tank, and > only then switch on the second fuel pump! > > -- > Frans Veldman > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:56 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 "what if" rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: > Frans as far as having two separate systems as you have, > if the cockpit filled with smoke thought to be electrical in nature, which > system would you turn off? The one with the wrong Amp-reading. In Europa's, everything is usually low-power. The biggest power hog in my machine is the strobe power supply, good for almost 5 Amp's. Now, even with 5 Amp's, it is difficult to generate much smoke. If there is smoke, you can be pretty sure that one of the systems show an amp-reading that is way out of limit. Knowing what is normal for your machine is helpfull either. ;-) Apart from that, I have everything fused. I have no problem short-cutting any wire in my aircraft, there is nothing that is not fused, everything is safe here (except for the starter, but as it is not used during flight, it can not generate much smoke.) > There is > nothing wrong with having a dual system as you have, just to make second > side nice and worthwhile you need a second battery that is heavier > than I care for. My two batteries are together lighter than many single system batteries. The point is: with a dual alternator setup, you don't need batteries during flight, only for starting. The batteries are not part of my back-up scenario. If the alternator dies, I always have another electrical bus, with a running alternator. (Unless the engine quits, but in that scenario you don't need power for very long, a small battery will be sufficient because you probably won't stay aloft very long. ;-) ) So, the batteries can be fairly small and light. > My approach is stone simple for > smoke in cockpit thought to be electrical in nature, shut down everything, > run one pump on a separate battery if feasible and land. It is not much different. You see, you only lack a dual battery, but actually you have already a separate battery, except that you need to plug it in manually. -- Frans Veldman ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.