---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 06/16/09: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:54 AM - Re: 914 Slight Hesitation going Full Throttle? (Herve Chaussures) 2. 02:19 AM - Re: 914 Slight Hesitation going Full Throttle? (Paul McAllister) 3. 02:19 AM - Sticking throttle cable, need a good fix! (Remi Guerner) 4. 08:22 AM - Sticking throttle cable, need a good fix! (Erich Trombley) 5. 09:43 AM - Navaid controller (David Joyce) 6. 10:09 AM - Re: 914 Slight Hesitation going Full Throttle? (darinh) 7. 10:44 AM - Re: Sticking throttle cable, need a good fix! (Cori Hayth) 8. 12:41 PM - Re: Navaid controller (Tony Crowe) 9. 01:23 PM - Re: Sticking throttle cable, need a good fix! (G-IANI) 10. 01:38 PM - Re: Navaid controller (David Joyce) 11. 01:52 PM - Re: Navaid controller (JEFF ROBERTS) 12. 02:03 PM - Re: Sticking throttle cable, need a good fix! (Robert Borger) 13. 02:04 PM - Re: Navaid controller (Mike Parkin) 14. 02:04 PM - Re: Re: 914 Slight Hesitation going Full Throttle? (Robert C Harrison) 15. 02:19 PM - Re: Sticking throttle cable, need a good fix! (rparigoris) 16. 05:44 PM - Turbo problems??? (TheSchultzFamily) 17. 06:20 PM - Re: Turbo problems??? (Garry) 18. 06:53 PM - Re: Turbo problems??? (Brad Shafer) 19. 08:19 PM - 16.5 mm reamer (vaughanlee) 20. 09:08 PM - Re: 914 Slight Hesitation going Full Throttle? (darinh) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:49 AM PST US From: "Herve Chaussures" Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 Slight Hesitation going Full Throttle? Hi Darin, I did have this problem once and with me it was the 2 inch rubber pipe in between the carbs and the air box which have come loose and once split. Check?? Regards Herve Europa 914xs G.CHET. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ivor.phillips@ntlworld.com Sent: 16 June 2009 07:52 Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Slight Hesitation going Full Throttle? Hi Darin I would check the waistgate cable to the turbo isnt sticking, followed by both throttle cables are travelling the same amount towards their end of travel before they reach the end stops, Ivor ---- darinh wrote: > > First off, let me say that I fly a Kitfox not a Europa (although I would love one) but you guys fly way more 914's than do the Kitfox guys so I come to you with engine questions. > > I have a 914 (new with 45 hours thus far). The issue I am having is a very short hesitation when going full throttle. Basically, when I push the throttle up on take-off, it runs beautifully up to about 100% throttle or max. continuous power position (35" MAP or so). Then as I go the last 15% and the boost kicks in full, I get a very slight hesitation (maybe .5 seconds) then it continues up to my 5700 rpm max. prop setting and 40" MAP. It doesn't seem to do this when in the air and going WOT. I have a Airmasters prop and sometimes think that this might be the cause as the electric motor that drives pitch lags slightly behind the engine. Anyone experience this? > > -------- > Darin Hawkes > Series 7 > 914 Turbo > Kaysville, Utah > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248338#248338 > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:19:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Slight Hesitation going Full Throttle? From: Paul McAllister Hi Darin, Have you checked your fuel flow ? Is it better or no different with the second boost pump switched on ? Paul ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:19:35 AM PST US From: "Remi Guerner" Subject: Europa-List: Sticking throttle cable, need a good fix! Bob, I experienced this sort of problem when I was flying behind the bloody 914. There are several possible causes. Apart from a binding bowden cable, one possible cause specific to the 914 is the throttle potentiometer on the left carb. I found that this potentiometer was adding a lot of friction to the left throttle, preventing the left carb to fully open and/or delaying the opening. You can check that after disconnecting both bowden cables from the carb lever and move the levers to compare right and left side. The fix was to slightly bend the retaining arm to increase the spring tension on the left side. Hope that helps. Best regards Remi Guerner F-PGKL, XS monowheel, 650 hours <<<<<>>>>>>> ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:22:37 AM PST US From: "Erich Trombley" Subject: Europa-List: Sticking throttle cable, need a good fix! Bob, I have been using solid Bowden cable sold by ACS. I posted a mod severa l years ago that I am sure can be extracted from the archives. While I am sure there are a number of folks using the stranded wire setup with s uccess, I wasn't comfortable using a cable in this application. Having to rely on springs to advance/pull the throttle cable didn't sit well wi th me. Solid wire is really suited for push/pull applications. I don't know if you recall a mishap that occurred many years ago which was attr ibuted to a sticking throttle cable. I believe it was a standard Europa installation. Anyway, the pilot decided to execute a go-around and qui ckly advanced the throttle only to have it kink within the throttle hous ing; limiting available throttle to little more than idle power. The su bsequent forced landing totaled the plane. Food for thought. Erich Trombley N28ET Classic Mono 914 ____________________________________________________________ Free information on buying a New Vehicle. Click Here. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsJ3RXElXxMoxTaCLNW7Kzp Lr0nskWCp93goC1WUiU4UB5sHggnelK/ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:36 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Europa-List: Navaid controller I am open to offers for a Navaid control unit (ie the bit that is in the panel, as opposed to the actuator mechanism), which has worked faultlessly since I first flew in 2002, but is now surplus to requirements due to panel upgrade. It has the bits for working with a GPS. I don't expect much, but imagine it might be worth something to someone as a spare! David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:09:50 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: 914 Slight Hesitation going Full Throttle? From: "darinh" Ivor, The wastegate travels through its full movement without binding and so do the throttles. Herve, I will check these again but they seem to be good. Paul, It seems to be the same with one or both boost pumps running and fuel flow is good. I did have an issue with a plugged fuel filter at about 20 hours but that has been replaced. The plugged filter obviously caused significant hesitation and rough running, so much so that I couldn't get much more than 4800 RPM. I also installed the Bell intercooler which I had to modify for my installation by cutting and rewelding the outlet 180 degrees to its original position. Apparently, this modification changed the airflow characteristics just enough that I was not getting the air I needed and the engine would hesitate and sputter around 5000 rpm. Both the filter problem and the intercooler issue have been remedied by either replacing or removing the items. Now I just have the very short single hesitation described in the original post before it goes WOT. -------- Darin Hawkes Series 7 914 Turbo Kaysville, Utah Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248471#248471 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:44:51 AM PST US From: Cori Hayth Subject: Re: Europa-List: Sticking throttle cable, need a good fix! I too did as Paul and shortened the cables for a smooth route. I also replaced the housing with Teflon lined ones from the bike shop. Pretty smooth. Europa XS Mono-Wheel Inter-cooled Rotax 914 Airmaster Prop On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 10:38 PM , ivor.phillips@ntlworld.com wrote: > > I did exactly as Paul, > IMHO there was way too much cable for the short run to the carbs, > I have had no problems with the cables sticking so far, > Ivor > ---- Paul McAllister wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> Although the manual suggests not to cut the cables, I did. I routed >> them to >> be as straight as possible and then cut them to lenght. I haven't >> ever had >> a problem with mine hanging up, although I can't definatively say >> that this >> is because I shortened them. >> >> Paul > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:17 PM PST US From: "Tony Crowe" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Navaid controller Hi David Would you take 50 for it? Tony -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Joyce Sent: 16 June 2009 17:33 Subject: Europa-List: Navaid controller I am open to offers for a Navaid control unit (ie the bit that is in the panel, as opposed to the actuator mechanism), which has worked faultlessly since I first flew in 2002, but is now surplus to requirements due to panel upgrade. It has the bits for working with a GPS. I don't expect much, but imagine it might be worth something to someone as a spare! David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:23:29 PM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Sticking throttle cable, need a good fix! Shortening the throttle cables is well worth doing. I used Teflon lined cycle cable for the control valve on my heater. The temperature at the lower end (just above the aft end of the oil cooler duct) was sufficient to melt the Teflon and seize the cable solid. While I appreciate that the temperature up by the carbs should be lower, I think you should be careful about using cycle cable in this application. Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 200 hours Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:20 PM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Navaid controller Tony, Give me 48 hrs and if no-one has offered more it's yours for 50 Regards, David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Crowe" Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 8:37 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Navaid controller > > > Hi David > > Would you take 50 for it? > > Tony > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Joyce > Sent: 16 June 2009 17:33 > To: Europa list > Subject: Europa-List: Navaid controller > > > > I am open to offers for a Navaid control unit (ie the bit that is in the > panel, as opposed to the actuator mechanism), which has worked faultlessly > since I first flew in 2002, but is now surplus to requirements due to > panel > upgrade. It has the bits for working with a GPS. I don't expect much, but > imagine it might be worth something to someone as a spare! > David Joyce, G-XSDJ > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:06 PM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Navaid controller Guys, I have replaced my Navaid head with a Trio so I also have one thats hardly been used. It doesn't have the GPS connection but it's like new and you can still get the adapter if needed. If anyone else out there, perhaps here in the States is looking for one let me know. Would take any offer as it's not doing me any good on the shelf. Regards, Jeff R. A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 186 hours and climbing slowly. On Jun 16, 2009, at 3:14 PM, David Joyce wrote: > > > Tony, Give me 48 hrs and if no-one has offered more it's yours for 50 > Regards, David > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Crowe" > > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 8:37 PM > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Navaid controller > > >> >> >> Hi David >> >> Would you take 50 for it? >> >> Tony >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David >> Joyce >> Sent: 16 June 2009 17:33 >> To: Europa list >> Subject: Europa-List: Navaid controller >> >> >> >> I am open to offers for a Navaid control unit (ie the bit that is in >> the >> panel, as opposed to the actuator mechanism), which has worked >> faultlessly >> since I first flew in 2002, but is now surplus to requirements due to >> panel >> upgrade. It has the bits for working with a GPS. I don't expect much, >> but >> imagine it might be worth something to someone as a spare! >> David Joyce, G-XSDJ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:08 PM PST US From: Robert Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Sticking throttle cable, need a good fix! Erich, Found your original post in the archive. This is about what I had planned on doing. Your post implies the 0.078" Bowden Cable Inner Wire fits in the original cable housing. Is this correct? If so, it certainly makes life easier than having to replace the complete original cable set with a complete Bowden Cable/Housing (2nd option). Thanks, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL Aircraft Flying! 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Jun 16, 2009, at 10:18, Erich Trombley wrote: > Bob, > > I have been using solid Bowden cable sold by ACS. I posted a mod > several years ago that I am sure can be extracted from the > archives. While I am sure there are a number of folks using the > stranded wire setup with success, I wasn't comfortable using a cable > in this application. Having to rely on springs to advance/pull the > throttle cable didn't sit well with me. Solid wire is really suited > for push/pull applications. I don't know if you recall a mishap > that occurred many years ago which was attributed to a sticking > throttle cable. I believe it was a standard Europa installation. > Anyway, the pilot decided to execute a go-around and quickly > advanced the throttle only to have it kink within the throttle > housing; limiting available throttle to little more than idle > power. The subsequent forced landing totaled the plane. Food for > thought. > > Erich Trombley > N28ET Classic Mono 914 > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Free information on buying a New Vehicle. Click Here. > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:06 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Navaid controller And another, After David has finished, I have also updated my panel. I have a Navaid Controller Head, GPS Smart Coupler and DG Coupler sat on a shelf gathering dust. Open to offers. Regards, Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JEFF ROBERTS Sent: 16 June 2009 21:50 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Navaid controller Guys, I have replaced my Navaid head with a Trio so I also have one thats hardly been used. It doesn't have the GPS connection but it's like new and you can still get the adapter if needed. If anyone else out there, perhaps here in the States is looking for one let me know. Would take any offer as it's not doing me any good on the shelf. Regards, Jeff R. A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 186 hours and climbing slowly. On Jun 16, 2009, at 3:14 PM, David Joyce wrote: > > > Tony, Give me 48 hrs and if no-one has offered more it's yours for 50 > Regards, David > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Crowe" > > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 8:37 PM > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Navaid controller > > >> >> >> Hi David >> >> Would you take 50 for it? >> >> Tony >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David >> Joyce >> Sent: 16 June 2009 17:33 >> To: Europa list >> Subject: Europa-List: Navaid controller >> >> >> >> I am open to offers for a Navaid control unit (ie the bit that is in >> the >> panel, as opposed to the actuator mechanism), which has worked >> faultlessly >> since I first flew in 2002, but is now surplus to requirements due to >> panel >> upgrade. It has the bits for working with a GPS. I don't expect much, >> but >> imagine it might be worth something to someone as a spare! >> David Joyce, G-XSDJ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 17:54:00 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:51 PM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: 914 Slight Hesitation going Full Throttle? Hi! Darin I have a Bell Intercooler fitted to my 914 and have no hesitation whatsoever. I can't point you to a cure for your problem but it looks like it wasn't the intercooler at least. Do you slam the throttle wide open or advance it more deliberately? It just may be temporarily flooding the intakes. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of darinh Sent: 16 June 2009 18:08 Subject: Europa-List: Re: 914 Slight Hesitation going Full Throttle? Ivor, The wastegate travels through its full movement without binding and so do the throttles. Herve, I will check these again but they seem to be good. Paul, It seems to be the same with one or both boost pumps running and fuel flow is good. I did have an issue with a plugged fuel filter at about 20 hours but that has been replaced. The plugged filter obviously caused significant hesitation and rough running, so much so that I couldn't get much more than 4800 RPM. I also installed the Bell intercooler which I had to modify for my installation by cutting and rewelding the outlet 180 degrees to its original position. Apparently, this modification changed the airflow characteristics just enough that I was not getting the air I needed and the engine would hesitate and sputter around 5000 rpm. Both the filter problem and the intercooler issue have been remedied by either replacing or removing the items. Now I just have the very short single hesitation described in the original post before it goes WOT. -------- Darin Hawkes Series 7 914 Turbo Kaysville, Utah Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248471#248471 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:16 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Sticking throttle cable, need a good fix! From: "rparigoris" Hi Ian Are you sure plastic lining was made out of Teflon? Other plastics melt a lot lower. Ron Parigoris Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:20 PM PST US From: "TheSchultzFamily" Subject: Europa-List: Turbo problems??? Time for some group input. I was bad and did not fly for about 6 weeks. I went out to the airport with good intentions to rectify that problem only to find that above 60% power the engine would surge. I traced the problem to a stuck waste gate. I have since freed it up with a little mouse milk on the arm and the TCU servo and response to throttle seem to be good. The problem I am now having is at about 60% power the engine starts to surge and trying to go to full power just kills the engine. I "assume" it was turbo related and pulled the air filter to check the turbo. The blades seem to turn fine. A restart of the engine and all was good for about 2 days and then on run up the problem returned. I can't seem to shake the feeling that I still have an airflow problem but not sure how best to trouble shoot this one. Any suggestions? I will be going back out tomorrow night to do a full power run up with the plane tied down. I have monitored and logged the engine data but it really just shows what you would expect with a surging engine. Change in RMP change in Airbox pressure.... The engine has 180 hours on it and runs great when it runs. Has anyone shot the inside of the turbo with a oil to break up any carbon build up? I am trying to get a camera scope to have a peek inside from the exhaust side. Regards, Rich Schultz N262AE ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:24 PM PST US From: "Garry" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turbo problems??? Try disconnecting the turbo airbox rubber hoses from the back of the carbs. This will in effect give you a normally aspirated engine. Try a full power run up and see what happens. If the surge disappears, then indeed you have a turbo problem. If the surge remains, you've eliminated the turbo as the source of the problem and should look to the carbs for a fix. Garry Stout ----- Original Message ----- From: "TheSchultzFamily" Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 8:42 PM Subject: Europa-List: Turbo problems??? > > > > Time for some group input. I was bad and did not fly for about 6 weeks. I > went out to the airport with good intentions to rectify that problem only > to > find that above 60% power the engine would surge. I traced the problem to > a > stuck waste gate. I have since freed it up with a little mouse milk on the > arm and the TCU servo and response to throttle seem to be good. The > problem > I am now having is at about 60% power the engine starts to surge and > trying > to go to full power just kills the engine. I "assume" it was turbo related > and pulled the air filter to check the turbo. The blades seem to turn > fine. > A restart of the engine and all was good for about 2 days and then on run > up > the problem returned. I can't seem to shake the feeling that I still have > an > airflow problem but not sure how best to trouble shoot this one. Any > suggestions? I will be going back out tomorrow night to do a full power > run > up with the plane tied down. I have monitored and logged the engine data > but > it really just shows what you would expect with a surging engine. Change > in > RMP change in Airbox pressure.... The engine has 180 hours on it and runs > great when it runs. Has anyone shot the inside of the turbo with a oil to > break up any carbon build up? I am trying to get a camera scope to have a > peek inside from the exhaust side. > > Regards, > > Rich Schultz > N262AE > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:34 PM PST US From: Brad Shafer Subject: RE: Europa-List: Turbo problems??? Is it ok to run the 914 like that? I found oil in the airbox and intercooler of my 914. I'm afraid it's coming from the turbo so running without the turbo connected might be a way to check. Brad -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 8:19 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turbo problems??? Try disconnecting the turbo airbox rubber hoses from the back of the carbs. This will in effect give you a normally aspirated engine. Try a full power run up and see what happens. If the surge disappears, then indeed you have a turbo problem. If the surge remains, you've eliminated the turbo as the source of the problem and should look to the carbs for a fix. Garry Stout ----- Original Message ----- From: "TheSchultzFamily" Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 8:42 PM Subject: Europa-List: Turbo problems??? > > > > Time for some group input. I was bad and did not fly for about 6 weeks. I > went out to the airport with good intentions to rectify that problem only > to > find that above 60% power the engine would surge. I traced the problem to > a > stuck waste gate. I have since freed it up with a little mouse milk on the > arm and the TCU servo and response to throttle seem to be good. The > problem > I am now having is at about 60% power the engine starts to surge and > trying > to go to full power just kills the engine. I "assume" it was turbo related > and pulled the air filter to check the turbo. The blades seem to turn > fine. > A restart of the engine and all was good for about 2 days and then on run > up > the problem returned. I can't seem to shake the feeling that I still have > an > airflow problem but not sure how best to trouble shoot this one. Any > suggestions? I will be going back out tomorrow night to do a full power > run > up with the plane tied down. I have monitored and logged the engine data > but > it really just shows what you would expect with a surging engine. Change > in > RMP change in Airbox pressure.... The engine has 180 hours on it and runs > great when it runs. Has anyone shot the inside of the turbo with a oil to > break up any carbon build up? I am trying to get a camera scope to have a > peek inside from the exhaust side. > > Regards, > > Rich Schultz > N262AE > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any attachments to it may contain confidential and proprietary material and is solely for the use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, disclosure, distribution or copying of this transmittal is prohibited except by or on behalf of the intended recipient. If you have received this transmittal in error, please notify the sender and destroy this e-mail and any attachments and all copies, whether electronic or printed. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:33 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: 16.5 mm reamer From: "vaughanlee" Fellow US Europa builders, I have our 16.5mm reamer for doing mod 72 available. Please contact me if you would like to use it and to tell me where to ship it. We only ask that you do the same for the next requester. First come first serve. Lee Vaughan vaughanrl@pella.com N69XS, A069 Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:03 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: 914 Slight Hesitation going Full Throttle? From: "darinh" Bob, The big hesitation was no doubt my Bell intercooler as I could remove it and the problem would go away and then install it and the problem would come right back. So it was definitely my intercooler. I know these work when installed as designed but if you reread my post you will see that I modified it to fit my installation which I think changed the air flow characteristics through the intercooler just enough to be a problem. I think they are great intercoolers and work well when installed as per design. -------- Darin Hawkes Series 7 914 Turbo Kaysville, Utah Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248633#248633 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.