Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:58 AM - Re: fuel flow 914 (G-IANI)
2. 02:42 AM - Re: Fw: Europa 4-seater (Raimo Toivio)
3. 03:07 AM - Re: Fw: Europa 4-seater (Raimo Toivio)
4. 05:23 AM - Re: Fw: Europa 4-seater (Frans Veldman)
5. 07:27 AM - The Europa Weight Competition (please do not take seriously) (Raimo Toivio)
6. 07:35 AM - aileron etc weights [was: Europa 4-seater] (Rowland Carson)
7. 08:39 AM - Re: aileron etc weights [was: Europa 4-seater] (Raimo Toivio)
8. 08:50 AM - Re: The Europa Weight Competition (please do not take seriously) (Frans Veldman)
9. 10:54 AM - Re: aileron etc weights [was: Europa 4-seater] (Rowland Carson)
10. 01:20 PM - Fw: The Europa Weight Competition (please do not take seriously) (Raimo Toivio)
11. 01:23 PM - Re: aileron etc weights [was: Europa 4-seater] (Raimo Toivio)
12. 03:09 PM - Re: The Europa Weight Competition (please do not take seriously) (Frans Veldman)
13. 10:39 PM - Europa XS Motorglider Trike Kit Stages 1 ~ 3 for sale (Thomas Scherer)
Message 1
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Paul
I used the Turbo boost gauge (manifold pressure) that I assume you have. I
do have a spare gauge here
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 200 hours
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Europa 4-seater |
"Danbish"
She (Tuuli 8-yrs) is 1280 mm = 50,4" tall.
Your treasure=B4s height and weight are superb for Europa=B4s back-seat
passenger.
An openable "Legacy" back seat window would be great for loading and
back seat observers.
BUT however so would be also one nice Lancair. At least my poor Europa
has now all the equipments and gizmos what=B4s necessary. It=B4s empty
weight is today 412 kg = 906 lbs and that=B4s definetely enough (only
so far until I find something I cannot resist).
By the way - "back-seat" is also quite comfortable also for (slim)
adult.
Look at an attachment - that brave maiden flight pilot is about 1750 mm
= 69" tall (please do not tell him).
Haven=B4t we all been there during construction phase?
Raimo OH-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: "danbish" <bdanbish@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 6:34 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Europa 4-seater
>
> How tall is your tallest Raimo? Mine seems already a bit close on
height, (49")though only about 50 lbs.
>
> Regarding the windows, maybe something like this, made for Lancairs...
>
> View at http://www.aircraftersllc.com/projects/legacyWindow/index.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
> Attachments:
> http://www.europaowners.org//zfiles/dscf0111_152.jpg
> http://www.europaowners.org//zfiles/dsc00069s_213.jpg
> http://www.europaowners.org//zfiles/windownrings_144.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Europa 4-seater |
Paul
Me too. That was fun. During building I really really made my best to
keep it lightweight.
Maximum sanding, squeezing, optimizing, making lightening holes,
weighing 1/10 grams, being happy "hey I have an aileron w optimum
weight" (I called Andy Draper 26. January 2000 and he stated "The Ideal
weight of the umpainted aileron is around 1100 grams +/- 10%". I was so
happy my ailerons were 1126 grams /stbd and 1150 grams /port.
The truth is here: being light-weight or heavy is only because of all
those "necessary" extra toys.
And we add those toys because we like toys actually. If I am honest I
relly do nothing with autopilot but flying w autopilot is very
captivating. Maybe psychlogists among us know what=B4s behind - no toys
during childhood or? And so what if person is happy!
Let=B4s make a competition - what=B4s the fattest flying Europa=B4s
empty weight in the universum!
Raimo
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul McAllister
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fw: Europa 4-seater
Hi Raimo,
I just can't resist this..... I, like most builders worked really hard
to keep the weight out of the airplane when building. It usually goes
like saving 100 grams here and there and if the builder works really
hard at it, maybe save a few kilo's, or if your lucky,even more.
The easier solution would be to just go on a diet and take 3 or 5
kilograms out of my ass. Of course I could tell my wife that she needs
to contribute to the cause and take 5 kilograms out of her ass as well,
but I don't have a "Death wish". As you have said, changing for a
lighter wife to go flying doesn't make sense.
Cheers, Paul
do not archive
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:34 AM, Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
wrote:
Craig, you are right!
I am able to take out 10 kilos but problem is my wife - she is just
perfect now and changing her for lighter one just for flying with
children does not make sense.
Raimo OH-XRT
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Europa 4-seater |
Raimo Toivio wrote:
> Lets make a competition - whats the fattest flying Europas empty
> weight in the universum!
Where can I apply?
I fear the "weighing day"....
Actually, I weighed the (empty) original Europa instrument panel, and
compared it to my fully equipped instrument panel (I expect my empty
panel to be lighter, but never weighed it). The difference is 10 kilo's.
So, I think I'm not an exception to have all instrumentation and wiring
together at 10 kilo's. Practically everything in the panel is light
weight (the backup GPS has been trimmed down to only half its weight for
example). The attitude indicator is an exception with 2 Kg's... Still,
it could have been lighter with only very basic instrumentation, but I
like toys and redundancy. ;-)
On the other hand I have light weight batteries, only 2 propeller
blades, and a few other weight-savers...
For those who wonder: The new instrument panel does not extend lower
than the original panel, and is not obstructing the forward vision. The
"extra" space is for the most part due to optimization of the available
space. The original instrument panel wastes a lot of space by its thick
edges, boundaries, and unnecessary division into sub-compartments. I had
about 2.5 cm (1 inch) additional panel height available because I have a
(modified) high-top. The firewall height is halfway between mod 64A and
mod 64B; just perfect. ;-) Can still see the nose, but not the entire
cowling.
Oh, anyone interested in a new, never used original genuine Europa
instrument panel? Make me an offer.
--
Frans Veldman
Message 5
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| Subject: | The Europa Weight Competition (please do not take seriously) |
Frans, it is beautiful.
I noticed
- you are also (mostly) an analogue man like me.
- you like also military style stick grips
- you think black is not only possible colour for panel
- you think all the serious machines must have some switches in the
ceiling panel
When watching those endless rowes of gauges it is like Howard Hughes=B4s
H-4 Hercules "Spruce Goose" panel...
Attaches my panel pics "2007" and latter "2009" w some extras like Trio
and Airmaster.
Please share us her weight (they say fat ladies are more jovial than
slender but I do not know because know only latter ones).
And first competition apply is here:
OH-XRT 412 kg 906 lbs.
I am sure there are somewhere Europas w empty weight over 1000 lbs (or
even 500 kg!).
Raimo OH-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frans Veldman" <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fw: Europa 4-seater
Raimo Toivio wrote:
> Let=B4s make a competition - what=B4s the fattest flying Europa=B4s
empty
> weight in the universum!
Where can I apply?
I fear the "weighing day"....
Actually, I weighed the (empty) original Europa instrument panel, and
compared it to my fully equipped instrument panel (I expect my empty
panel to be lighter, but never weighed it). The difference is 10 kilo's.
So, I think I'm not an exception to have all instrumentation and wiring
together at 10 kilo's. Practically everything in the panel is light
weight (the backup GPS has been trimmed down to only half its weight for
example). The attitude indicator is an exception with 2 Kg's... Still,
it could have been lighter with only very basic instrumentation, but I
like toys and redundancy. ;-)
On the other hand I have light weight batteries, only 2 propeller
blades, and a few other weight-savers...
For those who wonder: The new instrument panel does not extend lower
than the original panel, and is not obstructing the forward vision. The
"extra" space is for the most part due to optimization of the available
space. The original instrument panel wastes a lot of space by its thick
edges, boundaries, and unnecessary division into sub-compartments. I had
about 2.5 cm (1 inch) additional panel height available because I have a
(modified) high-top. The firewall height is halfway between mod 64A and
mod 64B; just perfect. ;-) Can still see the nose, but not the entire
cowling.
Oh, anyone interested in a new, never used original genuine Europa
instrument panel? Make me an offer.
--
Frans Veldman
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Message 6
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| Subject: | aileron etc weights [was: Europa 4-seater] |
At 2009-06-24 13:12 +0300 Raimo Toivio wrote:
>I called Andy Draper 26. January 2000 and he stated "The Ideal
>weight of the umpainted aileron is around 1100 grams +/- 10%". I was
>so happy my ailerons were 1126 grams /stbd and 1150 grams /port
Raimo - please tell me that was BEFORE you added the horn balances! I
didn't weigh mine until after the horns were added and they came out
at 2505g (starboard) and 2495g (port) which seems unbelievably heavy
in comparison.
I did weigh the lead weights before they were fitted to the horns and
they were about 520g each, so subtracting 2 of those gives about
1460g for the aileron structure without the lead.
My flaps seem pretty heavy too - they are 3285g (starboard) and 3225g (port).
None of the above are profiled or painted yet, they are just as laid
up, with the peel-ply removed.
Any comments from others who have weighed their control surfaces?
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1280 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail <rowil@clara.net>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: aileron etc weights [was: Europa 4-seater] |
Row - take it easy!
That "ideal weight for ailerons" was
- just after removing peel ply
- before horns
- before mass balances
and even
- before hinges!
I am sure your ailerons are first class and strong enough.
I could not find easily "ideal weights" or "my weights" for the flaps but I have
a memory they were around 2500 grams WITHOUT hinges again.
I think some kind of the proof of the high quality workmanship is that your weights
between port and stbd-side flaps and ailerons are so near with each others
( flaps 3285g and 3225g - that means less than 2%, ailerons at 2505g and 2495g,
that means less than 0,4% !!!).
Instead of that I found a rudder weight. That was 1813 grams WITH rudder horn but
before surface (and Mr Neville Eyre stated 1/12/1999 1800 grams would be ideal
and sooooo happy I were).
Are you happy now?
Raimo OH-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rowland Carson" <rowil@clara.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 5:31 PM
Subject: Europa-List: aileron etc weights [was: Europa 4-seater]
>
> At 2009-06-24 13:12 +0300 Raimo Toivio wrote:
>
> >I called Andy Draper 26. January 2000 and he stated "The Ideal
> >weight of the umpainted aileron is around 1100 grams +/- 10%". I was
> >so happy my ailerons were 1126 grams /stbd and 1150 grams /port
>
> Raimo - please tell me that was BEFORE you added the horn balances! I
> didn't weigh mine until after the horns were added and they came out
> at 2505g (starboard) and 2495g (port) which seems unbelievably heavy
> in comparison.
>
> I did weigh the lead weights before they were fitted to the horns and
> they were about 520g each, so subtracting 2 of those gives about
> 1460g for the aileron structure without the lead.
>
> My flaps seem pretty heavy too - they are 3285g (starboard) and 3225g (port).
>
> None of the above are profiled or painted yet, they are just as laid
> up, with the peel-ply removed.
>
> Any comments from others who have weighed their control surfaces?
>
> regards
>
> Rowland
> --
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: The Europa Weight Competition (please do not take seriously) |
Raimo Toivio wrote:
> Frans, it is beautiful.
Thanks! It just returned from the upholstery company, there are some
small things to do in the cockpit, but mostly it is finished now.
> I noticed
>
> - you are also (mostly) an analogue man like me.
Although I have earned quite some money with computers, yes, for these
kind of things I like nice round gauges. Apart from looking more
appealing than a "computer game"-style instrument panel, I find it also
more practical. Can replace anything separately, put in what suits me
best without compromises, and I find it easier to see at a glance what's
going on if I don't have to interpret streams of numbers. ;-) And last
but not least, a single black screen won't spoil my trip.
> - you like also military style stick grips
Well, these things have actually too much of a "plastic" impression to
my taste, but I find it convenient to have the autopilot-disengage,
trim, flaps, prop-mode and PTT all within reach, and save my other hand
for the panel, throttle and brakes (or foods or drinks ;-) ).
> - you think black is not only possible colour for panel
Black would shrink the airplane and disturb the "bright" impression of
the interior, so I decided to give it the same color as the leather
seats and trim.
> - you think all the serious machines must have some switches in the ceiling panel
;-) ;-) Actually I have a good excuse for this: these switches control
the strobes, position lights, and a few other things which control
things that are in the back of the airplane or the ceiling itself. It
saves wires. ;-)
> Attaches my panel pics "2007" and latter "2009" w some extras like Trio and Airmaster.
I see a lot of similarities. Somewhat the same colors, a Trio, etc. I
like your rudder pedals, tried something like that myself but miserably
failed to find a good geometry.
> And first competition apply is here:
>
> OH-XRT 412 kg 906 lbs.
Not too bad. I'm sure I will exceed this. What engine do you have? I put
in a 914 with intercooler and dual alternators, that by itself is a
strong argument in the weight competition. ;-)
--
Frans Veldman
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: aileron etc weights [was: Europa 4-seater] |
At 2009-06-24 18:39 +0300 Raimo Toivio wrote:
>Instead of that I found a rudder weight. That was 1813 grams WITH
>rudder horn but before surface
Raimo - I didn't weigh my rudder before I profiled and gel-coat
finished it (didn't have a handy digital fish scale or baggage scale
back then). It is now 2905g with hinges fitted and horn in LE for
pushrod control. I think I applied the Schwabellack gel-coat about 5
times and rubbed almost all of it off again before discovering where
to STOP rubbing! So, there may be a bit more weight in the finish
than is ideal. But, you have to start practising somewhere ...
>Neville Eyre stated 1/12/1999 1800 grams would be ideal
I wish these "ideal" component weights had been advertised a bit more
widely back then - they would have been a guide to how well one is
doing in keeping out excess weight (usually excess epoxy on the
control surfaces).
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1280 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail <rowil@clara.net>
Message 10
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| Subject: | The Europa Weight Competition (please do not take seriously) |
Frans
> Although I have earned quite some money with computers, yes, for these
> kind of things I like nice round gauges. Apart from looking more
> appealing than a "computer game"-style instrument panel, I find it also
> more practical. Can replace anything separately, put in what suits me
> best without compromises, and I find it easier to see at a glance what's
> going on if I don't have to interpret streams of numbers. ;-) And last
> but not least, a single black screen won't spoil my trip.
My reasons (almost free order):
1) style
2) traditions
3) readability because of analogue (not necessary to know rpms are 5037 but little
over 5000)
4) readability because of "what more sun that more visibility"
5) reliability because old and proven technic
6) reliability because they are separated
7) reliability because they work by electric and air
8) when (2006) I made decisions I thought glass is not "ready" and I did not liked
to be a test rabbit
9) sounds grazy but I wanted to use money (yes - an el. horizon was more than Dynon
but do not tell to my wife)
10) to have "round gauges" do not prevent to have also glass - I have a little
Dynon in a specific place
11) to have round gauges is also for me a wild choise because of my business w
PC programmed moving signs
12) I wanted to do something against known main waves
13) possibility because there are so few really necessary different information
what you must get in CVFR GA
- that means I had panel space enough and you Frans have stated there is possibility
to have much much more
14) I do understand what happens inside round gauges
15) round gauges are "forever" / easily changeable /serviceable - glass companies
can easily fly tomorrow to the sky and what then?
16) to write this kind of lists
>
> > - you like also military style stick grips
>
> Well, these things have actually too much of a "plastic" impression to
> my taste, but I find it convenient to have the autopilot-disengage,
> trim, flaps, prop-mode and PTT all within reach, and save my other hand
> for the panel, throttle and brakes (or foods or drinks ;-) ).
:
Frans: when there is nothing anymore to improve our Europas - lets plan to make
aluminium custom made experimental stick grips - like in Hornet F18s but much
lighter
>
> > - you think all the serious machines must have some switches in the ceiling
panel
>
> ;-) ;-) Actually I have a good excuse for this: these switches control
> the strobes, position lights, and a few other things which control
> things that are in the back of the airplane or the ceiling itself. It
> saves wires. ;-)
My 5 switches are all illegal: two of them have a specific purpose (which is illegal
but fun).
Two of them have (very illegal - so illegal that I cannot publish so far) plans
for future winters.
Just one is so far extra. But I promise some day it also will be strightly illegal.
>
> > Attaches my panel pics "2007" and latter "2009" w some extras like Trio and
Airmaster.
>
> I see a lot of similarities. Somewhat the same colors, a Trio, etc. I
> like your rudder pedals, tried something like that myself but miserably
> failed to find a good geometry.
Frans: a little tip for you. Do paint your pedals to black.
So they disappear nicely.
Please find and look LAA issue # June - so you will find out what I mean.
>
> > And first competition apply is here:
> >
> > OH-XRT 412 kg 906 lbs.
>
> Not too bad. I'm sure I will exceed this. What engine do you have? I put
> in a 914 with intercooler and dual alternators, that by itself is a
> strong argument in the weight competition. ;-)
You will, easily. But I have still "a silver medal".
My enlightened guess is your weight will be +420 kg /924 lbs - lets see.
I have 912S with many extras like water heated carburrettors and so.
My main sin was a painting for ever - I spent over 20 liters to paint she + all
those UV-lacquers layers.
Also - leather interior could easily be many kilos lighter - it took three fullgrown
hartebeestskin to complete it.
Raimo OH-XRT
Email Forum -
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: aileron etc weights [was: Europa 4-seater] |
> I wish these "ideal" component weights had been advertised a bit more
> widely back then - they would have been a guide to how well one is
> doing in keeping out excess weight (usually excess epoxy on the
Row,
That information was there just because I called factory and asked during those
days.
That was because I HAD NO IDEA WHATS THE QUALITY OF MY WORK.
Could you imagine the situation to be *only one* in the country building Europa
or even ANY composite plane?
I promise that was a lonely man project.
You englismen will find almost a nearest village and a nearest Europa builder is
there - is not that so?
Anyway - I do think "ideal weights" come "automatically" after a good workmanship.
You have proved it. Me too.
That is because weldone manual - thanks to Europa factory, Andy and Nev I think.
Raimo OH-XRT
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: The Europa Weight Competition (please do not take seriously) |
Raimo,
> My reasons (almost free order):
> 9) sounds grazy but I wanted to use money (yes - an el. horizon was more than
Dynon but do not tell to my wife)
Well, I agree with almost every single point, except for this one. Got a
marvel from eBay, a nice coloured attitude indicator from some airliner,
fully overhauled, has been stored in a controlled environment, and when
the company decided to go to glass, they sold the whole lot. Got it for
100$, looks like new, is like new. Has a fast erect/cage button. I only
had to build a 3-phase 400Hz 115VAC inverter to run these kind of
things, and with its own weight of 200 grams it is not too bad. Power
consumption is very reasonable with 3 Amps during spool up of the gyro,
and 0.6 Amps when fully established up to speed.
Apart from the good reliability/affordability ratio, I also had
tremendous fun experimenting with all this stuff. ;-)
> Frans: when there is nothing anymore to improve our Europas - lets plan to make
aluminium custom made experimental stick grips - like in Hornet F18s but much
lighter
Good idea!
> My 5 switches are all illegal: two of them have a specific purpose (which is
illegal but fun).
> Two of them have (very illegal - so illegal that I cannot publish so far) plans
for future winters.
> Just one is so far extra. But I promise some day it also will be strightly illegal.
Oww. I envision another contest: what illegal features can you put into
your airplane?
1) Sound! Yell to the neighbours. Or fly low over a crowded street and
emit a machine gun sound and see what happens. Gives a whole new
dimension to flying! The possibilities are endless, and for sure a
source of great fun.
2) A fuel dump. When you have to make a forced landing, better get rid
of the fuel first. Probably illegal, but might save your life.
3) A dropping bay. For water balloons (very innocent), paint balloons
(somewhat less innocent) or possibly even less innocent stuff.
But you have still more switches. What am I missing?
> Frans: a little tip for you. Do paint your pedals to black.
> So they disappear nicely.
Have been thinking about that, but because of their nature, paint will
probably wear off quickly at some points, leaving something that looks
very ugly.
> Please find and look LAA issue # June - so you will find out what I mean.
Where can I find that?
> My enlightened guess is your weight will be +420 kg /924 lbs - lets see.
I would be happy if that were true. Oh, it is a tri-gear as well. With
metal nose gear springs. And of course fairings.
> Also - leather interior could easily be many kilos lighter - it took three fullgrown
hartebeestskin to complete it.
Well, here I tried to use the leather tactically, only on places where
you can see it. The black stuff (on the ceiling, and most of the bagage
bay) is very light weight.
--
Frans Veldman
Message 13
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| Subject: | Europa XS Motorglider Trike Kit Stages 1 ~ 3 for sale |
I am selling a partly done Europa XS Trigear Motorglider Kit stages 1 ~ 3.
The cockpit module (including speed brake controls) is installed, the top of
the fuselage is yet to be glued on. The fuselage in on the gears.
Tinted windows as well as all other material are included.
Elevators, Ailerons and rudder are done in good quality workmanship, yet to
be filled and sanded.
The wings are all carbon.
The kit is located in Berlin, Germany and I am asking 29.000 Euro.
Some photos attached. Perfect for anybody who is interested in a Motorglider
and wants to save money & time.
Contact me under thomas@scherer.com for details.
be well !
<Thomas>
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