---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 06/30/09: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:48 AM - Re: Mono Wanted (Hans J. Danielsen) 2. 11:56 AM - C-FOGJ (David Stanbridge (Swift TG)) 3. 01:14 PM - ASN Aircraft accident 29-JUN-2009 Europa XS C-FOGJ (Mike Parkin) 4. 01:40 PM - Fuel system (Europa) 5. 02:12 PM - Re: Fuel system (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 6. 02:32 PM - Re: Fuel system (Tony Krzyzewski) 7. 03:37 PM - Folding Bicycles (Ross Hyndman) 8. 04:21 PM - Re: Folding Bicycles (Fred Klein) 9. 05:11 PM - Re: Fuel system (ofamerica.com YERLY) 10. 06:12 PM - Youtube clip of Jason's engine (Paul McAllister) 11. 08:03 PM - Fuel system - More Questions! (TheSchultzFamily) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:47 AM PST US From: "Hans J. Danielsen" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono Wanted Hi Paddy, What's your e.mail adress? I.m offering mine for sale shortly. Hans #334, in Norway. ----- Original Message ----- From: Paddy Clarke To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 7:27 PM Subject: Europa-List: Mono Wanted Hi Folks, For those in the UK . I have a friend who is after a well built mono, preferably an XS with a 912S and c/s prop. If anyone knows of one for sale, email me off list and I'll put you in touch. All the best, Paddy Paddy Clarke Europa G-KIMM ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:56:51 AM PST US From: "David Stanbridge (Swift TG)" Subject: Europa-List: C-FOGJ All, As many of you may be aware there was an fatal accident involving C-FOGJ and the owner, Janic Volcec. We are now in contact with the Transportation Safety Board of Canada and are helping where we can with their enquiries. One of the questions they have asked is "Have either of you have any contact with the owner of FOGJ? (Serial number A220) If so, can you recall what was discussed?" So what I would like to ask is that if someone knows of anything that may help in this enquiry can you please respond to me so that I can forward it on to the TSB. Many thanks, David Stanbridge Europa Aircraft ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:14:25 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Europa-List: ASN Aircraft accident 29-JUN-2009 Europa XS C-FOGJ Details here. http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=66041 regards, MP ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:40:18 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Fuel system From: Europa Can anyone tell me why rotax swapped from parallel to series arrangement for the 914 fuel pumps . Also is it mandatory in the UK to have them in series. Regards Paul G-GIDY ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel system From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Paul " Can anyone tell me why rotax swapped from parallel to series arrangement for the 914 fuel pumps." To keep differential fuel pressure (pressure to carb float bowls over airbox pressure) less than I think 5 PSI. Parallel will blow over that number and has chance of overcoming ability of needle valve and seat to hold it back. Also when operating on two pumps in parallel, it is harder on each pump compared to operating two pumps series with bypass. Note Europa has modified Rotax recommendation by installing a second filter, great idea IMHO. I have details of my system here: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album231&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php Gilles was kind enough to put up fuel pump testing on his website, link provided in above link. There is a diagram on Gilles website that is easier to follow than what Europa has in their FWF manual, but it is the same. I only substituted two Andair 375 gasculators for supplied filters. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:32:11 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel system From: "Tony Krzyzewski" >>Can anyone tell me why rotax swapped from parallel to series arrangement for >> the 914 fuel pumps . Also is it mandatory in the UK to have them in series. Rotax always had them in series - it was Europa who put them in parallel. During testing of the UMA differential fuel pressure gauge it was discovered that the parallel pumps were actually over pressurising the system so the change was made to swing them back to series. Incidentally, the UMA fuel pressure gauge mod is very easy to fit and does work well. For those who are interested, the output of the UMA differential fuel pressure sensor is 0-5v so should be compatible with most glass panels capable of accepting a 0-5v input from fuel pressure sensors. Tony ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:37:11 PM PST US From: Ross Hyndman Subject: Europa-List: Folding Bicycles For those that are interested in folding bicycles the following two might cost an arm and a leg but at least they are ridable bikes. "Friday" USD 1000 and the Moulton GBP900-10,000??. The Moulton would have to be considered the Rolls Royce/(Cadillac) of the 'folders' and with suspension, would reduce the abuse that your tail end takes. Ross. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:21:56 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Folding Bicycles On Jun 30, 2009, at 3:29 PM, Ross Hyndman wrote: > For those that are interested in folding bicycles the following two > might cost an arm and a leg but at least they are ridable bikes. > "Friday" USD 1000 and the Moulton GBP900-10,000??. Friday RULES !! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8m8BBgHNcs&feature=PlayList&p=07DCB83DC40A71AF&index=7&playnext=8&playnext_from=PL -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:21 PM PST US From: "ofamerica.com YERLY" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel system Tony and others, The original Rotax installation documentation for the 914 does have a parallel setup, Ref: Rotax installation manual dated 1996 05 10. Europa did not come up with this... As seems usual for Rotax, they give almost no heads up to why they do things. Refer to Contrails comments http://contrails.free.fr/engine_pierburg_en.php. I have a number of clients flying with the parallel system, without failures. The original documentation shows that a pump failure will not allow fuel to bypass in a parallel setup, but it could. As Rotax said in 1996 "Note: There is no need for a checkvalve for the operation of the two electric fuel pumps since the pump itself won't allow any passage against correct direction of flow. Attention: Employ GENUINE-BOMBARDIER-ROTAX fuel pumps only. Non compliance will release BOMBARDIER -ROTAX from any liability." The new installation manual drops all but the attention step) comment, necessitating the flurry of emails and comments in Contrails. John Hurst in high altitude flying saw the need for the differential to keep the engine from flaming out above 15,000 (if memory serves) when running full boost. Of course turning on the other pump clears the problem. The manual says to keep the fuel pressure below manifold Pressure by 5 psi and fuel pressure min at airbox pressure plus 0.25 bar (3.5 psi ish). Glad to hear that your having no problem with the sender, as the original UMA differentials did not work with the GRT EIS 4000, which is quite popular in the states. I personally do not use one, but they are handy. In my opinion, I can't do anything about the fuel pressure differential in flight. The operations manual gives the min and max, but you can't do anything about it. A parallel system adds volume, not pressure in a quick glance. Series can add pressure, but has redundancy problems if a pump clogs. So we go with a series parallel system. My head hurts. I'll go with Piersburg analysis that MRC did in the link above and perhaps add check valves as prescribed, but not change my old system. However, don't get slack as new systems should be plumbed by the book. On a more lighthearted note: As for flying, I monitor fuel pressure so as to monitor my filters and delivery system. If I go above 15,000 in full turbo (haven't yet) I'll be sure to turn on the other pump. Rotax says that the fuel pressure of the electric fuel pump must not exceed the manifold pressure by more than 0.35 bar (5psi) and the airbox boost can't exceed the fuel pressure. In that case I'll do the math 34" MP less outside pressure from my standard tables (everyone is not a geek and memorized the tables) of 17" is 13 psi ish differential (34-17=27/2= 13.5 psi) and my fuel pressure is 3 psi because of the lower atmospheric pressure aiding the pump, OH, that's a big gap TURN ON THE OTHER PUMP as the pressure in the airbox is running high and pushing the fuel out of the carbs. (Tongue in cheek of course as the engine would have failed before I got this far.) Seriously, Do it my way above and get a head ach or install the differential gauge, do less math. The differential only gives you an idea of your fuel pressure regulator health, and if you can't maintain the min and max, land and investigate. Without the device, monitor your fuel pressure and manifold pressure. If the engine acts up, select reserve (other filter if plumbed that way) and turn on the other pump. Note MP and fuel pressure. If it runs OK, continue and land as soon as practical, if not land as soon as possible and investigate. Bud Yerly ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Krzyzewski To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:24 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel system > >>Can anyone tell me why rotax swapped from parallel to series arrangement for >> the 914 fuel pumps . Also is it mandatory in the UK to have them in series. Rotax always had them in series - it was Europa who put them in parallel. During testing of the UMA differential fuel pressure gauge it was discovered that the parallel pumps were actually over pressurising the system so the change was made to swing them back to series. Incidentally, the UMA fuel pressure gauge mod is very easy to fit and does work well. For those who are interested, the output of the UMA differential fuel pressure sensor is 0-5v so should be compatible with most glass panels capable of accepting a 0-5v input from fuel pressure sensors. Tony http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:38 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Youtube clip of Jason's engine From: Paul McAllister Hi all, I suspect that some of you have seen this already, but Jason Parker has a new youtube clip of his most recent 914 turbo Rotax. The top of the engine is now looking very clean and tidy with the fuel system plumbed with a distribution manifold, and most of the wiring tucked underneath. For those who are interested, take a look at *** www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sdV_aNPiwU * Regards, Paul ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:58 PM PST US From: "TheSchultzFamily" Subject: Europa-List: Fuel system - More Questions! Fuel problems are just what I am currently looking at as the possible cause of my intermittent rough running engine. Has anyone taken the time to check the calibration of there sender unit to see how accurate it is? And if so what fuel pressure you are seeing at different manifold pressures? I don't trust the accuracy of my gauge and am I the process of running a calibration table to see how it responds over the range of 3 - 15 psi. I hooked up an analog pressure gauge I picked up from AutoZone over the weekend and it gave me a moment of pause. The base reading at idle was about 4.2PSI as I went up to about 31 inches the gauge was seen to slowly climb to about 6 and then was jumping rapidly between 6 and about 10psi. Not sure what if anything the gauge has for damping but it did not look like any. My UMA gauge never shows a pressure fluctuation of more then maybe .1. I am taking a small air regulator and making a calibration stand to check the analog gauge against the sender unit and a calibrated pressure gauge I have. This should allow me to know voltages and pressure readings and set up the EIS to read correctly over our pressure range. I want to know what people see from the 914 at say 15, 20. 25, 30 MP. Not differential but actual pressure. Problem remains intermittent rough running engine starting about 25MP. When is runs rough both carb vacuum readings are in sync, Changing left or right mags has no effect, Left or right tank has no effect, One, both or other fuel pump has no effect. Going to manual on the prop has no effect as does switching the disable on the TCU. Start and re try and still runs rough. Put the plane away and come back two days latter and it works great. Let it sit a day and it might work or it might not... Oshkosh is calling and I am afraid I'll be hanging out in my hanger at this rate :-( Rich Schultz N262AE 180 Hours ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.