---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/03/09: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:13 AM - Re: FS450 calibration (David Joyce) 2. 04:21 AM - FLAP DRIVE / MOTOR FAILURE (bbwebbase) 3. 04:22 AM - FLAP DRIVE / MOTOR FAILURE (Alexander Rodriguez) 4. 04:53 AM - Lifting a Europa (Richard Lamprey) 5. 05:23 AM - Re: FS450 calibration (Karl Heindl) 6. 05:37 AM - Re: FLAP DRIVE / MOTOR FAILURE (Karl Heindl) 7. 05:47 AM - Re: FS450 calibration (Bob Borger) 8. 06:25 AM - Re: FS450 calibration (Karl Heindl) 9. 11:37 AM - Re: FLAP DRIVE / MOTOR FAILURE (Duncan & Ami McFadyean) 10. 01:15 PM - Re: FS450 calibration (David Joyce) 11. 01:49 PM - Re: FS450 calibration (Karl Heindl) 12. 02:39 PM - Laddingford Fly-In (David Watts) 13. 03:09 PM - Re: FS450 calibration (R Holder) 14. 05:16 PM - Re: FS450 calibration (Karl Heindl) 15. 06:11 PM - Re: FS450 calibration (Robert Berube) 16. 10:35 PM - Re: FLAP DRIVE / MOTOR FAILURE (bbwebbase) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:13:55 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: FS450 calibration Karl, What engine? David Joyce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Heindl" Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 7:52 PM Subject: Europa-List: FS450 calibration I am trying to calibrate the K (fudge) factor for the above fuel flow computer. I have only one transducer and want displays in liters. My re-computed K-factor is way above the limit of the input field, which is limited to 2 digits. There is supposed to be a way of using just the one transducer, but how do you do it ? Perhaps the automatic option ? The guy at JPI tells me that I must have 2 transducers. Any help appreciated. Karl ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:21:25 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: FLAP DRIVE / MOTOR FAILURE From: "bbwebbase" part number: 9234c120-r7 Motion Dear all, After intermittent failures the flap drive finally quit working. After searching through the message board and also catching up with the Vans community it seems to be a frequent problem with these motors. Our question to you is now: Is there an alternative part or newer version (read not from Motion or where the problem is remedied) for this drive, and possibly avoiding drilling new holes in the fuselage? Quick answers would be super nice. Thank you. Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:22:00 AM PST US From: Alexander Rodriguez Subject: Europa-List: FLAP DRIVE / MOTOR FAILURE part number: 9234c120-r7 Motion Dear all, After intermittent failures the flap drive finally quit working. After searching through the message board and also catching up with the Vans community it seems to be a frequent problem with these motors. Our question to you is now: Is there an alternative part or newer version (read not from Motion or where the problem is remedied) for this drive, and possibly avoiding drilling new holes in the fuselage? Quick answers would be super nice. Thank you. Alexander ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:46 AM PST US From: "Richard Lamprey" Subject: Europa-List: Lifting a Europa Thanks, Raimo, Bud and Nigel for replies about lifting a Europa! I dont know how to reply to / add to messages in a thread, nothing seems to work, must be my server or something. Regards to all, Richard. Kenya ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:42 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: FS450 calibration 912s. I don't think there is a solution=2C except that second transponder. I set the K to 99.99=2C but flow rate is 27 litres. the automatic option sh ould work=2C but the crappy software seems to truncate the internally compu ted k-factor also. Karl > From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: FS450 calibration > Date: Mon=2C 3 Aug 2009 09:10:23 +0100 > uk> > > Karl=2C What engine? David Joyce > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karl Heindl" > To: > Sent: Friday=2C July 31=2C 2009 7:52 PM > Subject: Europa-List: FS450 calibration > > > > > I am trying to calibrate the K (fudge) factor for the above fuel flow > computer. I have only one transducer and want displays in liters. > > My re-computed K-factor is way above the limit of the input field=2C whic h is > limited to 2 digits. > > There is supposed to be a way of using just the one transducer=2C but how do > you do it ? > > Perhaps the automatic option ? The guy at JPI tells me that I must have 2 > transducers. > > Any help appreciated. > > > > Karl > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:42 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: FLAP DRIVE / MOTOR FAILURE Alexander=2C I can't help=2C but as far as I know the statistics for the motor are very good. But I think now that I will always carry a spare with me=2C ordered f rom Europa. The other reason for this reply is : what is the best way to do a flapless landing ? I tried it in the early days=2C but gave up because of the nose high attitu de. Karl Dear all=2C After intermittent failures the flap drive finally quit working. After sear ching through the message board and also catching up with the Vans communit y it seems to be a frequent problem with these motors. Our question to you is now: Is there an alternative part or newer version (read not from Motion or where the problem is remedied) for this drive=2C and possibly avoiding drilling new holes in the fuselage? Quick answers would be super nice. Thank you. Alexander ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:48 AM PST US From: Bob Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: FS450 calibration Karl, If you are using a return line to the fuel tank (as in my 914) you must use two transducers. There is no way to calibrate a system with a return line using only one transducer. Bob Borger N914XL XS Mono, 914, Airmaster C/S Prop >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Karl Heindl" >To: >Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 7:52 PM >Subject: Europa-List: FS450 calibration > > >I am trying to calibrate the K (fudge) factor for the above fuel flow >computer. I have only one transducer and want displays in liters. > >My re-computed K-factor is way above the limit of the input field, which is >limited to 2 digits. > >There is supposed to be a way of using just the one transducer, but how do >you do it ? > >Perhaps the automatic option ? The guy at JPI tells me that I must have 2 >transducers. > >Any help appreciated. > > >Karl > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:20 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: FS450 calibration Bob=2C that was my original assumption=2C but i was told that several europa owner s managed to get away with one and accurate readings. i have done the wirin g for two=2C but was trying to save the $300+. it is really a software pro blem by not allowing the input or calculation of the k-fudge factor above 9 9.99. Karl > Date: Mon=2C 3 Aug 2009 07:37:05 -0500 > From: rlborger@mac.com > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: FS450 calibration > > > Karl=2C > > If you are using a return line to the fuel tank (as in my 914) you must u se two transducers. There is no way to calibrate a system with a return lin e using only one transducer. > > Bob Borger > N914XL > XS Mono=2C 914=2C Airmaster C/S Prop > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Karl Heindl" > >To: > >Sent: Friday=2C July 31=2C 2009 7:52 PM > >Subject: Europa-List: FS450 calibration > > > > > > > > > >I am trying to calibrate the K (fudge) factor for the above fuel flow > >computer. I have only one transducer and want displays in liters. > > > >My re-computed K-factor is way above the limit of the input field=2C whi ch is > >limited to 2 digits. > > > >There is supposed to be a way of using just the one transducer=2C but ho w do > >you do it ? > > > >Perhaps the automatic option ? The guy at JPI tells me that I must have 2 > >transducers. > > > >Any help appreciated. > > > > > > > >Karl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:37:18 AM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: FLAP DRIVE / MOTOR FAILURE <<...Quick answers would be super nice...>> Try cleaning the commutator; needs doing every 100hours or so and cures intermittent operation. Duncan McF See article in archives. Do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: "bbwebbase" Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:22 PM Subject: Europa-List: FLAP DRIVE / MOTOR FAILURE > > > > part number: 9234c120-r7 Motion > > Dear all, > > After intermittent failures the flap drive finally quit working. After > searching through the message board and also catching up with the Vans > community it seems to be a frequent problem with these motors. Our > question to you is now: Is there an alternative part or newer version > (read not from Motion or where the problem is remedied) for this drive, > and possibly avoiding drilling new holes in the fuselage? Quick answers > would be super nice. > > Thank you. > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:23 PM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: FS450 calibration Karl, I have a 914 with FS450 and 2 transponders. My understanding is that the flow through the filters, pump/s and pressure valve and return line is considerably in excess of the normal fuel consumption, and depends on the efficiency of your pumps how clean the filters are, and the calibre of the fuel lines. Although the flow to the pressure valve will increase with greater engine power & fuel consumption, it will not be in strict proportion as there is considerable flow through the valve and the return pipe when the engine is not running. In consequence you cannot hope to get a reliable indication of fuel consumption without measuring fuel flow out & return & getting the instrument to subtract them. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Heindl" Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:21 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: FS450 calibration 912s. I don't think there is a solution, except that second transponder. I set the K to 99.99, but flow rate is 27 litres. the automatic option should work, but the crappy software seems to truncate the internally computed k-factor also. Karl > From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: FS450 calibration > Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 09:10:23 +0100 > > > > Karl, What engine? David Joyce > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karl Heindl" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 7:52 PM > Subject: Europa-List: FS450 calibration > > > I am trying to calibrate the K (fudge) factor for the above fuel flow > computer. I have only one transducer and want displays in liters. > > My re-computed K-factor is way above the limit of the input field, which > is > limited to 2 digits. > > There is supposed to be a way of using just the one transducer, but how do > you do it ? > > Perhaps the automatic option ? The guy at JPI tells me that I must have 2 > transducers. > > Any help appreciated. > > > Karl > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:27 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: FS450 calibration David=2C you are right of course=2C but i have been led to believe that the other so lution works okay also and gives accurate readings by changing this k-facto r. maybe if i change to gallons=2C but i have no interest in gallons. i jus t won't use it for a while. Karl > From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: FS450 calibration > Date: Mon=2C 3 Aug 2009 20:54:06 +0100 > uk> > > Karl=2C I have a 914 with FS450 and 2 transponders. My understanding is t hat > the flow through the filters=2C pump/s and pressure valve and return line is > considerably in excess of the normal fuel consumption=2C and depends on t he > efficiency of your pumps how clean the filters are=2C and the calibre of the > fuel lines. Although the flow to the pressure valve will increase with > greater engine power & fuel consumption=2C it will not be in strict propo rtion > as there is considerable flow through the valve and the return pipe when the > engine is not running. In consequence you cannot hope to get a reliable > indication of fuel consumption without measuring fuel flow out & return & > getting the instrument to subtract them. Regards=2C David Joyce=2C G-XSDJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karl Heindl" > To: > Sent: Monday=2C August 03=2C 2009 1:21 PM > Subject: RE: Europa-List: FS450 calibration > > > > > 912s. I don't think there is a solution=2C except that second transponder . I > set the K to 99.99=2C but flow rate is 27 litres. the automatic option sh ould > work=2C but the crappy software seems to truncate the internally computed > k-factor also. > > > Karl > > > > > > > > > From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk > > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Europa-List: FS450 calibration > > Date: Mon=2C 3 Aug 2009 09:10:23 +0100 > > > > > > > > Karl=2C What engine? David Joyce > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Karl Heindl" > > To: > > Sent: Friday=2C July 31=2C 2009 7:52 PM > > Subject: Europa-List: FS450 calibration > > > > > > > > > > I am trying to calibrate the K (fudge) factor for the above fuel flow > > computer. I have only one transducer and want displays in liters. > > > > My re-computed K-factor is way above the limit of the input field=2C wh ich > > is > > limited to 2 digits. > > > > There is supposed to be a way of using just the one transducer=2C but h ow do > > you do it ? > > > > Perhaps the automatic option ? The guy at JPI tells me that I must have 2 > > transducers. > > > > Any help appreciated. > > > > > > > > Karl > > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== > =========== > =========== > =========== > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:17 PM PST US From: "David Watts" Subject: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-In we had a great day at the re-scheduled Annual Laddingford Fly-In yesterday. A bad weather forecast for Saturday forced us to postpone the Fly-In for 1 day to the Sunday when we had fantastic weather. 24 Europas were to be seen at this gathering plus another 14 aircraft and a low fly-past by the kent Air Ambulance helicopter. Well over 100 barbecue meals were served up and a whole load of people were taken for a pleasure flight. In fact if you were responsible for taking anybody for a flight could you please e-mail the details to 2pk@peterkember.co.uk as Pete keeps a record of these things. Once again a memorable day. Thank you to everyone who managed to get there. Dave Watts ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:28 PM PST US From: R Holder Subject: Re: Europa-List: FS450 calibration Karl Heindl wrote: > you are right of course, but i have been led to believe > that the other solution works okay also and gives > accurate readings by changing this k-factor. maybe if i > change to gallons, but i have no interest in gallons. i > just won't use it for a while. There is a solution using one transponder. Re-arrange things so that the fuel comes out of the mechanical fuel pump, to a high point from where the return feed to the tank is taken, then put in the transponder and then split the line to each of the carbs. The tank return must be the highest point in the whole fuel system. Ergo. One transponder measuring exactly the fuel flow INTO the carbs. I know this can be done as it is how the factory built Sport Cruiser is set up. I have seen under the cowling of their demonstrator ! I failed to take a photo but I assure you that was how it was set up. (Don't ask me how I got to see under the hood on a SC !) The transponder requirement is 100mm straight line hose before it and 50mm after it so a total (including the transponder) of around 225 mm. Easily found ! Richard G-OWWW no fuel flow ! ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:03 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: FS450 calibration Thank you for that richard. i'll take a look at it and do what you say=2C u nless there is good reason not to change the fuel lines. I think i called i t a transponder as well=2C but it should be transducer=2C whatever that is. Karl > Date: Mon=2C 3 Aug 2009 23:07:08 +0100 > From: rholder@avnet.co.uk > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: FS450 calibration > > > Karl Heindl wrote: > > > you are right of course=2C but i have been led to believe > > that the other solution works okay also and gives > > accurate readings by changing this k-factor. maybe if i > > change to gallons=2C but i have no interest in gallons. i > > just won't use it for a while. > > > There is a solution using one transponder. > > Re-arrange things so that the fuel comes out of the > mechanical fuel pump=2C to a high point from where the > return feed to the tank is taken=2C then put in the > transponder and then split the line to each of the carbs. > > The tank return must be the highest point in the whole > fuel system. > > Ergo. One transponder measuring exactly the fuel flow INTO > the carbs. > > I know this can be done as it is how the factory built > Sport Cruiser is set up. I have seen under the cowling of > their demonstrator ! > > I failed to take a photo but I assure you that was how it > was set up. (Don't ask me how I got to see under the hood > on a SC !) > > The transponder requirement is 100mm straight line hose > before it and 50mm after it so a total (including the > transponder) of around 225 mm. Easily found ! > > Richard > G-OWWW no fuel flow ! > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:18 PM PST US From: "Robert Berube" Subject: RE: Europa-List: FS450 calibration Karl, We have set up several Europas with a single transducer with good results. I am sure it is in the archives but some years back. In fact we are in the midst of doing one now and would be happy to walk you through it if you give me a call. Bob Berube Flight Crafters 813 695-1120 From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 7:52 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: FS450 calibration Thank you for that richard. i'll take a look at it and do what you say, unless there is good reason not to change the fuel lines. I think i called it a transponder as well, but it should be transducer, whatever that is. Karl > Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 23:07:08 +0100 > From: rholder@avnet.co.uk > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: FS450 calibration > > > Karl Heindl wrote: > > > you are right of course, but i have been led to believe > > that the other solution works okay also and gives > > accurate readings by changing this k-factor. maybe if i > > change to gallons, but i have no interest in gallons. i > > just won't use it for a while. > > > There is a solution using one transponder. > > Re-arrange things so that the fuel comes out of the > mechanical fuel pump, to a high point from where the > return feed to the tank is taken, then put in the > transponder and then split the line to each of the carbs. > > The tank return must be the highest point in the whole > fuel system. > > Ergo. One transponder measuring exactly the fuel flow INTO > the carbs. > > I know this can be done as it is how the factory built > Sport Cruiser is set up. I have seen under the cowling of > their demonstrator ! > > I failed to take a photo but I assure you that was how it > was set up. (Don't ask me how I got to see under the hood > on a SC !) > > The transponder requirement is 100mm straight line hose > before it and 50mm after it so a total (including the > transponder) of around 225 mm. Easily found ! > > Richard > G-OWW======================= > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 05:56:00 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: FLAP DRIVE / MOTOR FAILURE From: "bbwebbase" <> Try cleaning the commutator; needs doing every 100hours or so and cures intermittent operation. Duncan McF See article in archives. Do not archive. -----[/quote:7884966cb3] Yes, it seems to have been the thing to do. Cleaning the commutator as one can find in the message boards here and for Van's. However, we had a failure after 54h engine time. Is not encouraging and also makes me wonder about the long term performance. We would like to go long distances and something like failing when setting up for a short field landing with no other field around is not my preference. I called Europa yesterday and they actually offer a different part now for approx. 380EUR. incl. an adapter plate. OK, there is an alternative, unfortunately with a hefty price tag. So, I still look around for some other solutions... 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