---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/08/09: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:40 AM - Re: Head Count for Rough River Fly in (pjeffers@talktalk.net) 2. 12:52 AM - Re: Fitting doors () 3. 02:32 AM - Pipe clamps (Graham Singleton) 4. 02:36 AM - Wear in outrigger pivot (Richard Lamprey) 5. 02:45 AM - Query Re:- Jeppesen 1:500,000 VFR/GPS Chart. (Robert C Harrison) 6. 03:12 AM - Re: Wear in outrigger pivot (Raimo Toivio) 7. 03:12 AM - Re: Query Re:- Jeppesen 1:500,000 VFR/GPS Chart. (Rowland Carson) 8. 03:21 AM - Re: Wear in outrigger pivot (Robert C Harrison) 9. 04:26 AM - Re: Head Count for Rough River Fly in (sldpileit@aol.com) 10. 05:43 AM - Re: Query Re:- Jeppesen 1:500,000 VFR/GPS Chart. (Robert C Harrison) 11. 07:24 AM - Re : Head Count for Rough River Fly in (John & Paddy Wigney) 12. 08:55 AM - Re: Rough River Speaker (Jeff B) 13. 09:17 AM - Re: Rough River Speaker (JEFF ROBERTS) 14. 11:12 AM - Re: Pipe clamps (david miller) 15. 01:21 PM - Re: Congrats to Jeff,Cooling feedback for Bud (Paul McAllister) 16. 03:55 PM - Re: Congrats to Jeff,Cooling feedback for Bud (Bud Yerly) 17. 04:03 PM - Re: Beer type, room for Bud, Gas cans coming, tools and bits. (Bud Yerly) 18. 05:56 PM - Re: Beer type, room for Bud, Gas cans coming, tools and bits. (Gary Leinberger) 19. 06:48 PM - Re: Beer type, room for Bud, Gas cans coming, tools and bits. (JEFF ROBERTS) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:40:20 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Head Count for Rough River Fly in From: pjeffers@talktalk.net Hi, Sue & Pete Jeffers will be staying at the Lodge on Friday and Saturday nights the 18th and 19th Sept. We are traveling from London (UK) to Louisville on the 17th,? staying overnight near the airport then on to Rough River Friday. We look forward to meeting everyone during the weekend. Pete & Sue? Kit 52 (UK) 1350 hrs rising. First flight Oct 1995 -----Original Message----- From: Robert Borger Sent: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 2:57 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Head Count for Rough River Fly in ? Paul,? ? My wife (Maureen) and I are booked in the lodge. No spare room as it currently stands.? ? Bob Borger? Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S? http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL? Aircraft Flying!? 3705 Lynchburg Dr.? Corinth, TX 76208? Home: 940-497-2123? Cel: 817-992-1117? ? ? On Sep 7, 2009, at 19:10, Paul McAllister wrote:? ? >? > Hi All,? >? > Could everyone who is intending to come to Rough River please reply to? > this threaad. From memory I have the following.? >? > Paul & Jenny McAllister? > Bud Yearly? > Bob Berube? > Bob Borger? > Jim & Heather Butcher? > Jeff Roberts? > Jeff & Mary Behrnes? > John Lawton? >? > Bud is looking for a place to bed down, our cabin is full, can any? > offer a spot for him ?? >? > Thanks and regards, Paul? ? ? ? ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:52:30 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fitting doors Hi Fred I used a couple of rivnuts per side on the cover plates, Haven't had problems with door flexing, Easy access if needed to lock mechanism, regards Ivor > On another note, I'm fitting my homemade splash mold cover plates > over the cutouts for the latch mechanisms and see that the manual > calls for them to be Reduxed in place. Doing so prevents access to the > head of the AN3-12A bolt which secures the exterior door handle. Once > the cover is glued on, it would appear impossible to remove or > reinstall the handle, unless a hole (not called for in the manual) > large enough for a socket is cut in the cover. Although the manual > states that the purpose of the cover is to strengthen the door frame, > I'm tempted to secure the cover w/ a few small flathead bolts tapped > into the frame. > > Comments anyone? > > Fred > A194 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:32:01 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: Pipe clamps Has anyone used sring clips for the fuel system yet, similar to the ones used by Rotax for the cooling system? The smell of fuel that sometimes occurs might be due to worm drive clips loosening, either due to the pipe taking a permanent set, (shrinks under pressure with heat) or the clips turning with vibration. These look good but might not be small enough. Ian tells me its important to have the right size for the pipe.. Graham ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:36:59 AM PST US From: "Richard Lamprey" Subject: Europa-List: Wear in outrigger pivot Maybe others have the same issues with the outrigger mechanism on the Europa monowheel. For retraction, the outrigger OR1 pivots around a AN4-21 bolt, which pivots within FL9 bushes in the two W21 plates. Thus, the entire pivot mechanism is on two small bushes, the FL9s. Imagine the bashing these things get, especially on rough runways, and also the sideways dragging/pressure against them when you have to spin the Europa around to backtrack a runway. I am finding that I have to replace the FL9s every 300 landings or so, with the rough runways (murram, stones, coral) we have here. Is is not possible to beef everything up by reduxing a big AN970-4 washer onto the outer faces of the W21 plates, the AN4-21 goes through that as well as the FL9s, so that the poor FL9s dont take all that wear? Does anyone have any ideas on that, or any other way to impart extra strength around the pivot holes in the W21 plates? best to all Richard Europa Classic 5Y-LRY, Kenya. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:41 AM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: Europa-List: Query re:- Jeppesen 1:500,000 VFR/GPS Chart. Hi! ALL in the UK. At the expense of looking a "bo bo" What does the note no. 27 mean off Clacton VFR Prohibited? Or how is it explained by their references...Clacton CTA 1,3-5,8,9,11-14.? Prompt assistance would be appreciated. Approach route needed for return to Elstree from Texel Saturday. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:12:08 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wear in outrigger pivot Hi Richard, please read the message below. Maybe that is an answer to you. I will try it during next delay. I have about 250 landings so far and you are right - then there is too much sideplay. Raimo from Finland OH-XRT Hi Jim The Mod is on the Europa Club website. It is Mod 10661 Version 2, May 2007. Version 2 changes the pivot bolt to AN5. We've done this Mod and it works fine. Jim & Heather Butcher N241BW Hoping for warm weather!! From: Richard Lamprey To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 12:37 PM Subject: Europa-List: Wear in outrigger pivot Maybe others have the same issues with the outrigger mechanism on the Europa monowheel. For retraction, the outrigger OR1 pivots around a AN4-21 bolt, which pivots within FL9 bushes in the two W21 plates. Thus, the entire pivot mechanism is on two small bushes, the FL9s. Imagine the bashing these things get, especially on rough runways, and also the sideways dragging/pressure against them when you have to spin the Europa around to backtrack a runway. I am finding that I have to replace the FL9s every 300 landings or so, with the rough runways (murram, stones, coral) we have here. Is is not possible to beef everything up by reduxing a big AN970-4 washer onto the outer faces of the W21 plates, the AN4-21 goes through that as well as the FL9s, so that the poor FL9s dont take all that wear? Does anyone have any ideas on that, or any other way to impart extra strength around the pivot holes in the W21 plates? best to all Richard Europa Classic 5Y-LRY, Kenya. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:12:09 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Re: Europa-List: Query re:- Jeppesen 1:500,000 VFR/GPS Chart. At 2009-09-08 10:44 +0100 Robert C Harrison wrote: >What does the note no. 27 mean off Clacton VFR Prohibited? Bob - it means what it says on the can - VFR prohibited in that airspace. However, if you're below FL55 (or FL65 further out to sea) you will be underneath the controlled airspace and so OK for VFR. The UK CAA half-million chart makes this a bit easier to see & understand. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson http://home.clara.net/rowil/ | ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:21:55 AM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Wear in outrigger pivot Hi! Richard. I can't help with particulars but I believe Nigel Charles developed a mod for this problem his e-mail address is :- nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk But Ian Rickard Current Club Mod Rep may also help if Nigel is on long haul.( g-iani@ntlworld.com) Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG (Trike) ! _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Lamprey Sent: 08 September 2009 10:37 Subject: Europa-List: Wear in outrigger pivot Maybe others have the same issues with the outrigger mechanism on the Europa monowheel. For retraction, the outrigger OR1 pivots around a AN4-21 bolt, which pivots within FL9 bushes in the two W21 plates. Thus, the entire pivot mechanism is on two small bushes, the FL9s. Imagine the bashing these things get, especially on rough runways, and also the sideways dragging/pressure against them when you have to spin the Europa around to backtrack a runway. I am finding that I have to replace the FL9s every 300 landings or so, with the rough runways (murram, stones, coral) we have here. Is is not possible to beef everything up by reduxing a big AN970-4 washer onto the outer faces of the W21 plates, the AN4-21 goes through that as well as the FL9s, so that the poor FL9s dont take all that wear? Does anyone have any ideas on that, or any other way to impart extra strength around the pivot holes in the W21 plates? best to all Richard Europa Classic 5Y-LRY, Kenya. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Head Count for Rough River Fly in From: sldpileit@aol.com My wife Corky and I will be flying down on Sat., but will not be speending the night. Will anyone have a gas can or two? Scott L. Dingman N108EA -----Original Message----- From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Sent: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 8:26 pm Subject: Re: Europa-List: Head Count for Rough River Fly in Paul- ? Add Jim and Lynne Puglise and Peter and Susan Jeffers (from the UK).? We are driving in Thursday night or Friday morning and leaving Sunday.? I think the same is true for Peter and Susan. ? I talked to the Park about 2 weeks ago and they had 8 rooms left as of that time. ? Jim Puglise A-283 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul McAllister" Sent: Monday, September 7, 2009 8:10:36 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Europa-List: Head Count for Rough River Fly in Hi All, Could everyone who is intending to come to Rough River please reply to this threaad. ?From memory I have the following. Paul & Jenny McAllister Bud Yearly Bob Berube Bob Borger Jim & Heather Butcher Jeff Roberts Jeff & Mary Behrnes John Lawton Bud is looking for a place to bed down, our cabin is full, can any ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:08 AM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Query re:- Jeppesen 1:500,000 VFR/GPS Chart. Thanks Rowland, I was aware that Amsterdam is Flight Level 55 but didn't notice the same implication for the Clacton factor for some reason probably, senility ! I'll think of you when under it (or the sea!) on Saturday ! Regards Bob H -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland Carson Sent: 08 September 2009 11:05 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Query re:- Jeppesen 1:500,000 VFR/GPS Chart. At 2009-09-08 10:44 +0100 Robert C Harrison wrote: >What does the note no. 27 mean off Clacton VFR Prohibited? Bob - it means what it says on the can - VFR prohibited in that airspace. However, if you're below FL55 (or FL65 further out to sea) you will be underneath the controlled airspace and so OK for VFR. The UK CAA half-million chart makes this a bit easier to see & understand. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson http://home.clara.net/rowil/ | ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:33 AM PST US From: John & Paddy Wigney Subject: Europa-List: Re : Head Count for Rough River Fly in Hi Paul, Paddy and I will be there with our trusty N262WF. We just hope that the tail end of a hurricane does not get in the way like it did last year. It is a lo----ng one day drive from North Carolina. We are looking forward to the weekend. Cheers, John ORIGINAL MESSAGE Subject: Europa-List: Head Count for Rough River Fly in From: Paul McAllister Hi All, Could everyone who is intending to come to Rough River please reply to this threaad. From memory I have the following. Paul & Jenny McAllister Bud Yearly Bob Berube Bob Borger Jim & Heather Butcher Jeff Roberts Jeff & Mary Behrnes John Lawton Bud is looking for a place to bed down, our cabin is full, can any offer a spot for him ? Thanks and regards, Paul ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:52 AM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough River Speaker Jeff, Bring them down. Would make for a great presentation! Jeff - Baby Blue JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > Hi All, > I flew to breakfast at Winchester Tennessee BGF and sat down to eat. > About 10 minutes into the conversation with the people I happened to set > across from I realized that I was talking to Mike & Sanday Loehle from > Loehle Aircraft Corp. www.loehle.com > Most of you probable know this but they make some darn nice low cost > replica WW 2 aircraft kits. His biggest contribution to all of us > builders though are his aircraft coatings. He says he has a product that > virtually eliminates the fight against pin holes. I only wish I had the > product he described before completing Gold Rush. Anyway when I > mentioned our fly-in at Rough River he mentioned that a local EAA > chapter had invited him to speak on his aircraft coatings that same > weekend south of Louisville KY. I ask him if he would be interested in > addressing our group while he was up there. Both him and his wife (Very > Good People) said they would love to. So let me know what you all think > and I'll call him to find out when. For those of you not priming yet > this could be a godsend. > > Best Regards, > > > Jeff R. > A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 198 hours and cooling great! > > size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier"> > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:15 AM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough River Speaker After I talked to Sandy Loehle (Mikes wife) I had it all wrong. As the coincidence has it the Louisville EAA meeting he was going to address is at Rough River. So the Louisville EAA chapter is meeting at Rough River on the same weekend we are meeting there. Wow... lots of airplanes and airplane people. Mike will be giving a talk on Loehle aircraft, products and it's history to this group on Saturday night about 8:p in the banquet room. Sandy is contacting that group to see if they would mind some of us Europa people setting in on it. Maybe just having our own table in the room. Also Mike and Sandy will be there all weekend so if anyone has questions on there fill and paint products he would be glad to do a little on the spot talk at the runway or lodge. Sounds like a great weekend for all of us that love to fly & build. Or should that be build & fly ;o) Regards, Jeff R. A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush On Sep 6, 2009, at 10:00 PM, Robert Borger wrote: > > Jeff, > > Sounds like a good idea to me. > > Bob Borger > Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S > http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL > Aircraft Flying! > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > Corinth, TX 76208 > Home: 940-497-2123 > Cel: 817-992-1117 > > > On Sep 6, 2009, at 11:07, JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > >> Hi All, >> I flew to breakfast at Winchester Tennessee BGF and sat down to eat. >> About 10 minutes into the conversation with the people I happened to >> set across from I realized that I was talking to Mike & Sanday Loehle >> from Loehle Aircraft Corp. www.loehle.com >> Most of you probable know this but they make some darn nice low cost >> replica WW 2 aircraft kits. His biggest contribution to all of us >> builders though are his aircraft coatings. He says he has a product >> that virtually eliminates the fight against pin holes. I only wish I >> had the product he described before completing Gold Rush. Anyway when >> I mentioned our fly-in at Rough River he mentioned that a local EAA >> chapter had invited him to speak on his aircraft coatings that same >> weekend south of Louisville KY. I ask him if he would be interested >> in addressing our group while he was up there. Both him and his wife >> (Very Good People) said they would love to. So let me know what you >> all think and I'll call him to find out when. For those of you not >> priming yet this could be a godsend. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> >> Jeff R. >> A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 198 hours and cooling great! >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:12 AM PST US From: david miller Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pipe clamps Graham, > I tried using auto hose clamps ( but not the spring clamps you mention ) in an attempt to trace the fuel smell. There was no leakage at the connections so it did not make any difference. The smell always seemed like vented autogas, and as soon as I changed the vent from the top of the fuselage and plumbed it back into the neck of the tank, the smell disappeared. Odd as it may seem, I think the smell came from vented gas running down the fuselage and being sucked back inside via the cut outs for the flaps and elevator Dave > Has anyone used sring clips for the fuel system yet, similar to the > ones used by Rotax for the cooling system? > The smell of fuel that sometimes occurs might be due to worm drive > clips loosening, either due to the pipe taking a permanent set, > (shrinks under pressure with heat) or the clips turning with > vibration. > > Graham > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:07 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Congrats to Jeff,Cooling feedback for Bud From: Paul McAllister Hi Bud, I am deep in the middle of doing cooling modifications on my Europa. I am finding that it has taken me much longer than expected, I think I started in March and I am still at it. Rather than get into the details of what I have been doing, I'll leave that for when we get together at Rough River. I do have a couple of questions and a request. In your note you state that the air inlet on the XS is 14 square inches. I come up with the following: 'Dog box' 4 x 7.125 = 28.5 Sq"s 'Round Inlets' 3" (2 off) = 14 "914 NACA Engine air inlet' 1.25 x 4 = 5 If I have done my maths correctly the this is a total of 47.5 square inches. Am I missing something ? When I compare this to something like a 160hp RV6 then it doesn't seem right to me. Would you be prepared to bring some photographs to show what you do on your exits? I have a couple of theories on what is happening on my 914. On the ground I think that the issue is more about thermal gain from the exhaust & turbo, rather than anything to do with the oil/water radiator configurations. I decided this from talking to Erich. He told me that he can taxi around for as long as he wants without over heating when the top cowl is off. As soon he puts the top on, it over heats in 15 minutes. He lives in Nevada. In the climb I think the 'Dog box' has stalled air in it due to the angle of attack and I get over heating. The internal shape is a miserable. It has all kinds of excuse for an expansion duct. It has all kinds of bends and sharp shapes in it. In straight and level, I get over cooling because the radiator inlet is too big. I'll bring photographs of what I have been doing to Rough River, its very radical. Cheers, Paul On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Bud Yerly wrote: > Jeff, > Glad to hear the cooling issues are relieved. Well done and thanks for > passing it on. > > For consumption by others and for feedback, I'd like to hear other fliers > comments also. > > From my shop experience: > Evans replaced by 60-40 or 50-50 is a 10 degree drop minimum. (Sorry Mr. > Evans) > > I Jeff's case, by moving the duct two things probably happened: > > For the tri-gear, (those with the wide open area around the nose gear > trunion and with the firewall moved back behind the nose gear to the > added bulkhead), moving the duct down, doesn't cause as much of a > difference. But the bungees/springs/hoses etc. in the back portion of the > nose wheel well can restrict flow, and moving the duct down will help as it > opens the two triangles on either side of the duct adding significant air > exit for the heat. It also moves the hot accelerated air of the radiators > lower in the duct. This heated air streaming out can cause a potential > suction which may help pull air out of the cowl. (Same affect as using the > exhaust venturi.) > > I once did this with a cowl flap which lowered a reshaped upper metal duct > ramp and and the cowl ramp bottom together and went from 12 minutes to > overheat on the ground to 30 minutes to 240 F. It was capable of max > continuous climb with the flap open. I now just reshape the fixed ramp > dimensions for simplicity. > > Finally, I have found that moving the air intakes up to near the seam and > putting a plenum over the engine or perhaps adding a duct like Jeff did, > forces air over the cylinders. This helps on climb out in super hot > conditions, but not much affect in cruise. > > *Tips for those who prefer a stock install:* > Sealing the front and sides of the metal duct tight to the fiberglass cowl > opening is really important. A leak in this area can cause a high pressure > bubble of air in the cowl under the cylinders and literally trap heat under > the engine and reduce the effectiveness of the inlet air intakes. It also > reduces the pressure differential across the radiator/oil cooler which is > essential to the heat transfer for cooling. > > The hole for the nose gear leg adds turbulence and pressure to the back > side of the radiator exit. Consider a piece of silicone cowl seal slit to > make cowl installation easy and close this hole up. > > Open up the inlets fully. Don't leave a lip as it just restricts the flow > into the cowl. > > Mostly, you can lower temps 20 degrees just doing the following: > > Begin by closing off the area between the sides of the oil cooler and > duct. > > Always lower the oil cooler as far as you can if you have a 912S or 914 > (2-2.5 inches is possible but change the elbow out for a straight fitting). > > > I just found this leak. The area between the oil cooler and radiator is > nearly a 1/2 inch and you'd be surprised how much potential cooling air goes > under the radiator, up and over the oil cooler then out through the space > above the oil cooler. This high pressure air degrades the radiator > effectiveness as the air passes up the back of the radiator and > out. Assembling the oil cooler as close to the radiator as possible, or by > adding sheet metal/sealing material to reduce this exit air gap is a help. > (Don't let any seal rub the cooler though.) > > Finally, the seal under the oil cooler must be tight between the oil cooler > and the fiberglass ramp and continue up the sides of the oil cooler. > > From NACA documentation, I found it interesting that 70% of the air hitting > against a radiator will build pressure and force itself out around the > radiator in either free air or in a loose duct rather than go through the > core. So keep it tight. > > Also somewhere I found the statement that in a tightly cowled inline > engine, for efficient cooling drag ratios, the ratio of air outlet to inlet > should be as close to 1-1 when in cruise as possible, and 4 to one with the > cowl flaps open, in climb. I can't find that reference right now. However, > in the Europa, with the cowl inlet air hole area of 14 or so square inches, > we need a minimum of 56 inches of exit air, just for the cowl air. But in a > mono wheel, ours is two triangles either side of the duct and fiberglass > ramp of about 15 to 20 inches, and if you are lucky, 13 square inches > between the firewall and upper metal duct for a total of 33 inches of cowl > exit air max. As you can see, this makes the air exit of the cowl nearly 1 > or 2 to 1. This is OK for cruise, but a disaster for cooling in high power > climbs at low speed, especially if turbo equipped. This 4-1 ratio works in > my experience. To cool well in summer I try to get 100 square inches of > exit air (Tri-gear) out of the cowl (Mono with fixed duct 60 square inches, > cowl flap added 90). That is just for the cowl air, and does not include > the duct exit for the radiator. That is a lot of glass and metal work, and > seems to be worth it. > > I would like the time to reshape my duct in my demonstrator to see the > affect of each of the above. My demonstrator just passed airworthiness, and > will fly soon, (N12AY, Classic, tri-gear, 914, fixed pitch for data reasons > (LSA experimenting) then Airmaster). I am obligated to do a stock > installation with just sealing the duct as above and taking data. It's not > rocket science, it just takes time. > > Feedback? > > Again, Good Job Jeff! > See you at Rough River. > > Bud Yerly > Custom Flight Creations > Europa Dealer > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:08 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Congrats to Jeff,Cooling feedback for Bud Paul, I'll snap some photo's of what we've done and drag down some numbers. For cooling air I am talking about the actual air intakes not the oil/glycol cooler openings. That is a different set of calcs but similar. The Rotax is very much air cooled. You hit the nail on the head that the turbo/muffler is one heck of a heat generator. Therefore when full turbo is selected the scant 14 inches of air to the front of the cylinders is not directed where needed and because of exit design unable to exit freely by draft and/or by force. The 914 NACA inlet is for induction only, except for what leaks high pressure air into the lower cowl from the hole made for the filter. The NACA disturbs me because it leaks high pressure air into the engine compartment directly below the engine, blocking what air comes in from the front. Remember the hole we all made around the front of the cowl. Without that closed off any pressure coming in the front leaks away. The radiator we have is actually large enough to do the job, as is the oil cooler. Our problem is the duct shape and exit. At low speed the back of our coolers doesn't form enough of a draw to compensate for the low air speed coming in. We could probably use a cowl flap. It is a tangled web we weave. And an expensive one. Enough for now. My turbo oil seal went and now it sucks the oil out of the engine. Good news is the intake and carbs are really well lubricated now. Talk to you soon. Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul McAllister To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 4:14 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Congrats to Jeff,Cooling feedback for Bud Hi Bud, I am deep in the middle of doing cooling modifications on my Europa. I am finding that it has taken me much longer than expected, I think I started in March and I am still at it. Rather than get into the details of what I have been doing, I'll leave that for when we get together at Rough River. I do have a couple of questions and a request. In your note you state that the air inlet on the XS is 14 square inches. I come up with the following: 'Dog box' 4 x 7.125 = 28.5 Sq"s 'Round Inlets' 3" (2 off) = 14 "914 NACA Engine air inlet' 1.25 x 4 = 5 If I have done my maths correctly the this is a total of 47.5 square inches. Am I missing something ? When I compare this to something like a 160hp RV6 then it doesn't seem right to me. Would you be prepared to bring some photographs to show what you do on your exits? I have a couple of theories on what is happening on my 914. On the ground I think that the issue is more about thermal gain from the exhaust & turbo, rather than anything to do with the oil/water radiator configurations. I decided this from talking to Erich. He told me that he can taxi around for as long as he wants without over heating when the top cowl is off. As soon he puts the top on, it over heats in 15 minutes. He lives in Nevada. In the climb I think the 'Dog box' has stalled air in it due to the angle of attack and I get over heating. The internal shape is a miserable. It has all kinds of excuse for an expansion duct. It has all kinds of bends and sharp shapes in it. In straight and level, I get over cooling because the radiator inlet is too big. I'll bring photographs of what I have been doing to Rough River, its very radical. Cheers, Paul On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Bud Yerly > wrote: Jeff, Glad to hear the cooling issues are relieved. Well done and thanks for passing it on. For consumption by others and for feedback, I'd like to hear other fliers comments also. From my shop experience: Evans replaced by 60-40 or 50-50 is a 10 degree drop minimum. (Sorry Mr. Evans) I Jeff's case, by moving the duct two things probably happened: For the tri-gear, (those with the wide open area around the nose gear trunion and with the firewall moved back behind the nose gear to the added bulkhead), moving the duct down, doesn't cause as much of a difference. But the bungees/springs/hoses etc. in the back portion of the nose wheel well can restrict flow, and moving the duct down will help as it opens the two triangles on either side of the duct adding significant air exit for the heat. It also moves the hot accelerated air of the radiators lower in the duct. This heated air streaming out can cause a potential suction which may help pull air out of the cowl. (Same affect as using the exhaust venturi.) I once did this with a cowl flap which lowered a reshaped upper metal duct ramp and and the cowl ramp bottom together and went from 12 minutes to overheat on the ground to 30 minutes to 240 F. It was capable of max continuous climb with the flap open. I now just reshape the fixed ramp dimensions for simplicity. Finally, I have found that moving the air intakes up to near the seam and putting a plenum over the engine or perhaps adding a duct like Jeff did, forces air over the cylinders. This helps on climb out in super hot conditions, but not much affect in cruise. Tips for those who prefer a stock install: Sealing the front and sides of the metal duct tight to the fiberglass cowl opening is really important. A leak in this area can cause a high pressure bubble of air in the cowl under the cylinders and literally trap heat under the engine and reduce the effectiveness of the inlet air intakes. It also reduces the pressure differential across the radiator/oil cooler which is essential to the heat transfer for cooling. The hole for the nose gear leg adds turbulence and pressure to the back side of the radiator exit. Consider a piece of silicone cowl seal slit to make cowl installation easy and close this hole up. Open up the inlets fully. Don't leave a lip as it just restricts the flow into the cowl. Mostly, you can lower temps 20 degrees just doing the following: Begin by closing off the area between the sides of the oil cooler and duct. Always lower the oil cooler as far as you can if you have a 912S or 914 (2-2.5 inches is possible but change the elbow out for a straight fitting). I just found this leak. The area between the oil cooler and radiator is nearly a 1/2 inch and you'd be surprised how much potential cooling air goes under the radiator, up and over the oil cooler then out through the space above the oil cooler. This high pressure air degrades the radiator effectiveness as the air passes up the back of the radiator and out. Assembling the oil cooler as close to the radiator as possible, or by adding sheet metal/sealing material to reduce this exit air gap is a help. (Don't let any seal rub the cooler though.) Finally, the seal under the oil cooler must be tight between the oil cooler and the fiberglass ramp and continue up the sides of the oil cooler. From NACA documentation, I found it interesting that 70% of the air hitting against a radiator will build pressure and force itself out around the radiator in either free air or in a loose duct rather than go through the core. So keep it tight. Also somewhere I found the statement that in a tightly cowled inline engine, for efficient cooling drag ratios, the ratio of air outlet to inlet should be as close to 1-1 when in cruise as possible, and 4 to one with the cowl flaps open, in climb. I can't find that reference right now. However, in the Europa, with the cowl inlet air hole area of 14 or so square inches, we need a minimum of 56 inches of exit air, just for the cowl air. But in a mono wheel, ours is two triangles either side of the duct and fiberglass ramp of about 15 to 20 inches, and if you are lucky, 13 square inches between the firewall and upper metal duct for a total of 33 inches of cowl exit air max. As you can see, this makes the air exit of the cowl nearly 1 or 2 to 1. This is OK for cruise, but a disaster for cooling in high power climbs at low speed, especially if turbo equipped. This 4-1 ratio works in my experience. To cool well in summer I try to get 100 square inches of exit air (Tri-gear) out of the cowl (Mono with fixed duct 60 square inches, cowl flap added 90). That is just for the cowl air, and does not include the duct exit for the radiator. That is a lot of glass and metal work, and seems to be worth it. I would like the time to reshape my duct in my demonstrator to see the affect of each of the above. My demonstrator just passed airworthiness, and will fly soon, (N12AY, Classic, tri-gear, 914, fixed pitch for data reasons (LSA experimenting) then Airmaster). I am obligated to do a stock installation with just sealing the duct as above and taking data. It's not rocket science, it just takes time. Feedback? Again, Good Job Jeff! See you at Rough River. Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations Europa Dealer http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:03:44 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List:Beer type, room for Bud, Gas cans coming, tools and bits. Jeff, Thanks but have secured a room with Dave Conrad. His wife can't come either...What's with the gals, I promised I wouldn't be really obnoxious. Anyway, what beer do we want. I have a truck and will bring gas cans and a tool box just in case of a minor repair. Bud Yerly ----- Original Message ----- From: JEFF ROBERTS To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:01 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Head Count for Rough River Fly in > Bud, I have a room booked and my wife can't come so let me know if you want the other bed. If you don't snore and you drink beer we should be good. Jeff R. A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 195 Hours and cooling great! On Sep 7, 2009, at 7:10 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > Could everyone who is intending to come to Rough River please reply to > this threaad. From memory I have the following. > > Paul & Jenny McAllister > Bud Yearly > Bob Berube > Bob Borger > Jim & Heather Butcher > Jeff Roberts > Jeff & Mary Behrnes > John Lawton > > Bud is looking for a place to bed down, our cabin is full, can any > offer a spot for him ? > > Thanks and regards, Paul > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:18 PM PST US From: Gary Leinberger Subject: RE: Europa-List:Beer type, room for Bud, Gas cans coming, tools and bits. I will be there - with my wife Susan Gary Leinberger A237 ________________________________________ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud Yerly [budyerly@msn.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:58 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List:Beer type, room for Bud, Gas cans coming, tools and bits. Jeff, Thanks but have secured a room with Dave Conrad. His wife can't come either...What's with the gals, I promised I wouldn't be really obnoxious. Anyway, what beer do we want. I have a truck and will bring gas cans and a tool box just in case of a minor repair. Bud Yerly ----- Original Message ----- From: JEFF ROBERTS Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:01 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Head Count for Rough River Fly in Bud, I have a room booked and my wife can't come so let me know if you want the other bed. If you don't snore and you drink beer we should be good. Jeff R. A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 195 Hours and cooling great! On Sep 7, 2009, at 7:10 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > Could everyone who is intending to come to Rough River please reply to > this threaad. From memory I have the following. > > Paul & Jenny McAllister > Bud Yearly > Bob Berube > Bob Borger > Jim & Heather Butcher > Jeff Roberts > Jeff & Mary Behrnes > John Lawton > > Bud is looking for a place to bed down, our cabin is full, can any > offer a spot for him ? > > Thanks and regards, Features Chat, http://www.matronnbsp; via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p; generous bsp; title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c================ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:50 PM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List:Beer type, room for Bud, Gas cans coming, tools and bits. On Sep 8, 2009, at 5:58 PM, Bud Yerly wrote: > Jeff, > Thanks but have secured a room with Dave Conrad. His wife can't come > either...What's with the gals, I promised I wouldn't be really > obnoxious. I agree. One of my wife's Poodles had another litter of Goldendoodles so she has to keep the bottles flowing to keep all 12 alive. > Anyway, what beer do we want. I like miller light but beggers cant be choosey. Bring a few cases and I'll pay for one. Regards, Jeff R. A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush Praying for great weather. > I have a truck and will bring gas cans and a tool box just in case > of a minor repair. > > Bud Yerly >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: JEFF ROBERTS >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:01 PM >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Head Count for Rough River Fly in >> >> >> Bud, >> I have a room booked and my wife can't come so let me know if you want >> the other bed. If you don't snore and you drink beer we should be >> good. >> >> Jeff R. >> A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 195 Hours and cooling great! >> >> >> On Sep 7, 2009, at 7:10 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > Hi All, >> > >> > Could everyone who is intending to come to Rough River please reply >> to >> > this threaad. From memory I have the following. >> > >> > Paul & Jenny McAllister >> > Bud Yearly >> > Bob Berube >> > Bob Borger >> > Jim & Heather Butcher >> > Jeff Roberts >> > Jeff & Mary Behrnes >> > John Lawton >> > >> > Bud is looking for a place to bed down, our cabin is full, can any >> > offer a spot for him ? >> > >> > Thanks and regards, Features Chat, http://www.matronnbsp; via >> the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> _p; generous bsp; >> title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// >> www.matronics.com/c================ >> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.