Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:11 AM - Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) (Frans Veldman)
2. 05:09 AM - SV: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) (Sidsel og Svein Johnsen)
3. 05:18 AM - Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) (Karl Heindl)
4. 10:27 AM - Re: SV: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) (Frans Veldman)
5. 11:52 AM - Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (Robert C Harrison)
6. 12:52 PM - Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (Frans Veldman)
7. 01:19 PM - Re: SV: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) (Frans Veldman)
8. 01:41 PM - Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (Robert C Harrison)
9. 02:26 PM - Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (Karl Heindl)
10. 02:35 PM - Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (Frans Veldman)
11. 02:35 PM - DOTH Shobdon Thu. 15th (Paddy Clarke)
12. 02:39 PM - Re: SV: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) (JEFF ROBERTS)
13. 02:43 PM - Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (rparigoris)
14. 02:55 PM - Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (Robert C Harrison)
Message 1
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Subject: | Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) |
In the archives I have seen that others have had problems with these
brakes as well, but few wrote what helped them to finally get rid of the
air, and/or to fix the unit.
I couldn't bleed my starboard brake by conventional means (from top to
bottom), but when I finally injected dot5 into the bleed nipple until
the level in the reservoir raised by 1/2, the brake was no longer
spongy. I couldn't get it to the end-stop anymore. Satisfied with how it
was, I decided not to mess anymore with it and I left it there. For
injecting the fluid I used an injection thing from the VET (don't know
the proper name in English) but instead of a needle, I attached a
plastic tube to it. This worked well. Needless to say I used quite a
large unit.
The port brake however, where I applied the same method, never got rid
of the air. Even worse, if I then try to bleed from top to bottom, I can
get one throw of the brake lever (with a squirt of fluid going out of
the bleed nipple) and after that, it feels like it is empty (no
resistance, and no significant fluid ejection).
Since I have been doing this at least 20 times (inject into the bleed
nipple until the reservoir level rises by half, followed by bleeding the
conventional way) I suspect something is wrong here.
I also winched the airplane halfway up the trailer, so it was pointing
its tail up, to easy any air out of the Jamar thing, but it didn't
change anything.
There was one anomaly: while it was pretty easy to inject the fluid on
the starboard side (the one that worked so well), it was in the
beginning almost impossible to get some fluid into the port side, it
gave a feeling like it was blocked. As the manual suggest that it should
be possible to do it this way, I increased force until it felt like
something gave way, and after that it was behaving and feeling like the
starboard side (except that it keeps feeling spongy, whatever I try, and
after one squirt it feels "empty").
Give the massive amounts of fluid I injected, and pressure applied, I'm
sure there are no leaks in the system (otherwise it would have left
obvious traces of the slippery stuff somewhere in the fuselage).
Actually, the brakes have worked for a while last year (although both
sides were somewhat spongy) when I installed the brakes and filled it up
with fluid to check its function, but never bothered to get it
completely free of air, because I figured that I would have to
disconnect something again in a later stage. Now I'm preparing for
"first flight" and tries to get everything in perfect condition, I seem
to be stuck with this...
Any ideas? Should I try harder, or might something be wrong with the
Jamar unit? Do the symptoms indicate a fault?
Frans
Message 2
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Subject: | Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) |
Frans,
I do not recognize the name "Jamar" - are these the tunnel-mounted
finger-brakes supplied by Europa?
If so, maybe this can help: When bleeding one side, the finger lever of the
other side must be held all the way back (as far as you get it). Otherwise,
a cross-connection between the two sides is open and air from one side
escapes to the other side and vice versa. Use a string attached to the
safety harness or some other suitable point to tighten and hold first one,
then the other lever back.
Hope this helps!
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
Message 3
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Subject: | Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) |
Frans=2C
Everyone has come up with a different solution. I had identical problems an
d here is what worked for me:
make sure the nipple is at the bottom of the brake=2C not the top.
open it and submerse it in a container containing brake fluid. maybe attach
a short piece of hose first as you did for your syringe. this way no air c
an enter again from the bottom.
now fill the reservoir until it appears full. it is best if someone can hel
p and keep the reservoir topped up .
you now keep operating the brake lever - you will see bubbles of air comin
g out at the bottom. keep operating the lever until no more air comes out.
close the nipple and do same on the other side.
Karl
> Date: Mon=2C 12 Oct 2009 13:01:52 +0200
> From: frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?)
>
l>
>
> In the archives I have seen that others have had problems with these
> brakes as well=2C but few wrote what helped them to finally get rid of th
e
> air=2C and/or to fix the unit.
>
> I couldn't bleed my starboard brake by conventional means (from top to
> bottom)=2C but when I finally injected dot5 into the bleed nipple until
> the level in the reservoir raised by 1/2=2C the brake was no longer
> spongy. I couldn't get it to the end-stop anymore. Satisfied with how it
> was=2C I decided not to mess anymore with it and I left it there. For
> injecting the fluid I used an injection thing from the VET (don't know
> the proper name in English) but instead of a needle=2C I attached a
> plastic tube to it. This worked well. Needless to say I used quite a
> large unit.
>
> The port brake however=2C where I applied the same method=2C never got ri
d
> of the air. Even worse=2C if I then try to bleed from top to bottom=2C I
can
> get one throw of the brake lever (with a squirt of fluid going out of
> the bleed nipple) and after that=2C it feels like it is empty (no
> resistance=2C and no significant fluid ejection).
> Since I have been doing this at least 20 times (inject into the bleed
> nipple until the reservoir level rises by half=2C followed by bleeding th
e
> conventional way) I suspect something is wrong here.
> I also winched the airplane halfway up the trailer=2C so it was pointing
> its tail up=2C to easy any air out of the Jamar thing=2C but it didn't
> change anything.
>
> There was one anomaly: while it was pretty easy to inject the fluid on
> the starboard side (the one that worked so well)=2C it was in the
> beginning almost impossible to get some fluid into the port side=2C it
> gave a feeling like it was blocked. As the manual suggest that it should
> be possible to do it this way=2C I increased force until it felt like
> something gave way=2C and after that it was behaving and feeling like the
> starboard side (except that it keeps feeling spongy=2C whatever I try=2C
and
> after one squirt it feels "empty").
>
> Give the massive amounts of fluid I injected=2C and pressure applied=2C I
'm
> sure there are no leaks in the system (otherwise it would have left
> obvious traces of the slippery stuff somewhere in the fuselage).
>
> Actually=2C the brakes have worked for a while last year (although both
> sides were somewhat spongy) when I installed the brakes and filled it up
> with fluid to check its function=2C but never bothered to get it
> completely free of air=2C because I figured that I would have to
> disconnect something again in a later stage. Now I'm preparing for
> "first flight" and tries to get everything in perfect condition=2C I seem
> to be stuck with this...
>
> Any ideas? Should I try harder=2C or might something be wrong with the
> Jamar unit? Do the symptoms indicate a fault?
>
> Frans
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) |
Sidsel og Svein Johnsen wrote:
>
>
> Frans,
>
> I do not recognize the name "Jamar" - are these the tunnel-mounted
> finger-brakes supplied by Europa?
Yep.
> If so, maybe this can help: When bleeding one side, the finger lever of the
> other side must be held all the way back (as far as you get it).
I did that.
I also turned the unit in all possible directions when bleeding it. In
the last two days I have worked liters of dot5 through the system (and
reused as much of it as possible of course, but lost at least half a
liter in cumulative drips). Whatever I try, the port side always behaves
the same; it may feel promising some times, but after the first squirt,
it just doesn't pump anymore.
So, I hate to have to come to the conclusion that the unit itself is
somehow defective.
I took it out, but now I'm puzzled how to disassemble it. Various people
on this forum have written in the past about changing seals etc. but I'm
ashamed to not have a clue yet how to open up the unit. There is a tiny
screw on the side, but taking it out doesn't change a thing. There are
no doors, no panels, nothing, or they have hidden it magically. So I
assume that some has to give near the place where the lever comes out.
It is tempting to pull on the lever until something gives, but before I
do that I want to be sure that I didn't miss something.
Very very frustrating all this. Dot5 all over the place, the floor and
workbence are slippery from that stuff (I always work as clean as
possible but this silicone stuff seems to go everywhere by itself), my
hands are sore of squeezing, braking and pumping, and so far not any
progress. This brake bleeding thing is on my nomination for the most
hated job on an Europa.
If I have to fiddle with that Jamar thing much longer to get it working,
I might alltogether toss that thing away. What is involved to convert to
a Matco unit? As I already finished the interior, can I reuse the
existing slots for the levers? Is it plug and play, or is some surgery
needed?
Thanks in advance for any advice.
Frans
Message 5
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Subject: | Tri-gear Jamar brakes |
Hi! Frans
I'm not familiar with the JAMAR term you use. I have trike foot brakes not
finger brakes. However I forced fluid up from the bottom using a lemonade
bottle linked to the nipple (You will be using a large vets SYRINGE)
However, have you realized that the bleed nipple at the brake end needs to
be on the bottom of the slave cylinder and the pipe connection to the master
cylinders need to be on the top?
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman
Sent: 12 October 2009 12:02
Subject: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?)
In the archives I have seen that others have had problems with these
brakes as well, but few wrote what helped them to finally get rid of the
air, and/or to fix the unit.
I couldn't bleed my starboard brake by conventional means (from top to
bottom), but when I finally injected dot5 into the bleed nipple until
the level in the reservoir raised by 1/2, the brake was no longer
spongy. I couldn't get it to the end-stop anymore. Satisfied with how it
was, I decided not to mess anymore with it and I left it there. For
injecting the fluid I used an injection thing from the VET (don't know
the proper name in English) but instead of a needle, I attached a
plastic tube to it. This worked well. Needless to say I used quite a
large unit.
The port brake however, where I applied the same method, never got rid
of the air. Even worse, if I then try to bleed from top to bottom, I can
get one throw of the brake lever (with a squirt of fluid going out of
the bleed nipple) and after that, it feels like it is empty (no
resistance, and no significant fluid ejection).
Since I have been doing this at least 20 times (inject into the bleed
nipple until the reservoir level rises by half, followed by bleeding the
conventional way) I suspect something is wrong here.
I also winched the airplane halfway up the trailer, so it was pointing
its tail up, to easy any air out of the Jamar thing, but it didn't
change anything.
There was one anomaly: while it was pretty easy to inject the fluid on
the starboard side (the one that worked so well), it was in the
beginning almost impossible to get some fluid into the port side, it
gave a feeling like it was blocked. As the manual suggest that it should
be possible to do it this way, I increased force until it felt like
something gave way, and after that it was behaving and feeling like the
starboard side (except that it keeps feeling spongy, whatever I try, and
after one squirt it feels "empty").
Give the massive amounts of fluid I injected, and pressure applied, I'm
sure there are no leaks in the system (otherwise it would have left
obvious traces of the slippery stuff somewhere in the fuselage).
Actually, the brakes have worked for a while last year (although both
sides were somewhat spongy) when I installed the brakes and filled it up
with fluid to check its function, but never bothered to get it
completely free of air, because I figured that I would have to
disconnect something again in a later stage. Now I'm preparing for
"first flight" and tries to get everything in perfect condition, I seem
to be stuck with this...
Any ideas? Should I try harder, or might something be wrong with the
Jamar unit? Do the symptoms indicate a fault?
Frans
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes |
Robert C Harrison wrote:
Hi Robert,
> However, have you realized that the bleed nipple at the brake end needs to
> be on the bottom of the slave cylinder and the pipe connection to the master
> cylinders need to be on the top?
Why would that be?
According to the manual, the bleed nipple should point forward (which
happens to be the upper connector). I felt no suspicion doing it that
way, because air tends to rise, so it seemed logical to have the bleed
nipple on top, that way any air in the caliper will collect near the
bleed nipple. Apart from that, the brake line will then nicely follow
the leg so the brake line won't dangle into the air.
Maybe you are right that it should be the other way around, but could
you please also explain why?
Frans
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) |
I wrote:
> I took it out, but now I'm puzzled how to disassemble it.
Ok, I managed to find the secret. blush. Now you all know I'm not a
brake expert.
So, the next problem is: is it normal what I'm seeing?
When I turned the cap loose, nothing happened. It might be that the
whole contents should be launched by the spring, but it didn't. But then
again, maybe that is normal. The thing with the white disk was easy to
get out, but the rubber seal (?) just above the spring is stuck. If you
look at the picture, in the upper brake cylinder, I left it inside
without touching. It stays there despite the spring, and it is also not
nicely alined with the hole of the metal cap of the spring (ok, maybe
that is normal too). Both sides were equal. In the bottom cylinder, I
took everything out. The rupper thing doesn't move by itself, but is
still easy to get out. But if it is supposed to move freely inside the
cylinder, then this unit has a fault. Near the bottom (when the spring
is fully depressed) the rubber thing is pushed back, but it is erratic
at best.
If I take it out, and put the thing with the white disk in it, then it
moves freely. So the problem is not the white disk.
Also, if I look inside the cylinders, they look like I found them in a
junk yard, not like something that is supposed to be a brand new
airplane part!
So, after all, it could be that the problem was not so much air in the
system, but a sticking piston. Then squeezing in fluid via the bleed
nipple would force the piston back (I could indeed feel a resistance,
something giving way, then after a while followed again by increased
resistance), and trying to bleed from top to bottom would give me just
one throw, and the sticking piston would not allow the fluid to refill
the cylinder. The only thing that doesn't match is that I remember that
the brake lever still had some spring action, but maybe I'm wrong here.
Assuming that my findings are not according to the way it should have
been (can anyone confirm that the spring should be able to push
everything out by itself?), what would be the best way to fix it? Do I
need to replace the sticking rubber caps or do they still look ok?
About the history of these parts: I bought the kit from a previous
owner, who never really started the kit, and had it stored for several
years. He wanted to get his PPL but failed to get a medical. So, after
several years, he sold it to me. The original foot brakes came with it,
but also the finger brake conversion kit. I assume he has bought that
when it came available. I installed the brake system in 2008, and that
was the first time it was lubricated. The brake levers always felt
somewhat "sticky". The unit has only seen DOT5.
Could it be that the rubber seals are dried out or something?
Frans
Message 8
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Subject: | Tri-gear Jamar brakes |
Hi! Frans.
If you are filling oil from the bottom,(that is with the bleed (filling)
nipple at the bottom, as you say air rises so there will not be a pocket of
it in the slave cylinder top, you will expel all the air out of the master
cylinder. If the bleed nipple is at the top of the slave cylinder and you
are trying to expel air downwards and back to the master cylinder it won't
oblige!
You are actually NOT using it as a "bleed" nipple in this application you
are using it as a filling nipple to expel the air upwards and to the master
cylinder.
Hope you understand? Exasperating isn't it ?
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman
Sent: 12 October 2009 20:47
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes
Robert C Harrison wrote:
<ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi Robert,
> However, have you realized that the bleed nipple at the brake end needs to
> be on the bottom of the slave cylinder and the pipe connection to the
master
> cylinders need to be on the top?
Why would that be?
According to the manual, the bleed nipple should point forward (which
happens to be the upper connector). I felt no suspicion doing it that
way, because air tends to rise, so it seemed logical to have the bleed
nipple on top, that way any air in the caliper will collect near the
bleed nipple. Apart from that, the brake line will then nicely follow
the leg so the brake line won't dangle into the air.
Maybe you are right that it should be the other way around, but could
you please also explain why?
Frans
Message 9
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Subject: | Tri-gear Jamar brakes |
Frans=2C
look at any Cessna etc.=2C you will find the 'bleed'nipple at the bottom.
Karl
> From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes
> Date: Mon=2C 12 Oct 2009 21:40:42 +0100
>
co.uk>
>
> Hi! Frans.
> If you are filling oil from the bottom=2C(that is with the bleed (filling
)
> nipple at the bottom=2C as you say air rises so there will not be a pocke
t of
> it in the slave cylinder top=2C you will expel all the air out of the mas
ter
> cylinder. If the bleed nipple is at the top of the slave cylinder and you
> are trying to expel air downwards and back to the master cylinder it won'
t
> oblige!
> You are actually NOT using it as a "bleed" nipple in this application you
> are using it as a filling nipple to expel the air upwards and to the mast
er
> cylinder.
> Hope you understand? Exasperating isn't it ?
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldma
n
> Sent: 12 October 2009 20:47
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes
>
l>
>
> Robert C Harrison wrote:
> <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> Hi Robert=2C
>
> > However=2C have you realized that the bleed nipple at the brake end nee
ds to
> > be on the bottom of the slave cylinder and the pipe connection to the
> master
> > cylinders need to be on the top?
>
> Why would that be?
>
> According to the manual=2C the bleed nipple should point forward (which
> happens to be the upper connector). I felt no suspicion doing it that
> way=2C because air tends to rise=2C so it seemed logical to have the blee
d
> nipple on top=2C that way any air in the caliper will collect near the
> bleed nipple. Apart from that=2C the brake line will then nicely follow
> the leg so the brake line won't dangle into the air.
>
> Maybe you are right that it should be the other way around=2C but could
> you please also explain why?
>
> Frans
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes |
Robert C Harrison wrote:
> Hi! Frans. If you are filling oil from the bottom,(that is with the
> bleed (filling) nipple at the bottom, as you say air rises so there
> will not be a pocket of it in the slave cylinder top, you will expel
> all the air out of the master cylinder. If the bleed nipple is at the
> top of the slave cylinder and you are trying to expel air downwards
> and back to the master cylinder it won't oblige! You are actually NOT
> using it as a "bleed" nipple in this application you are using it as
> a filling nipple to expel the air upwards and to the master cylinder.
Ok, got that. But I never intended to bleed it this way, but just
"normally" like with cars: top up the reservoir, push the brake and open
the nipple, close it, release brake, and repeat until the air is gone.
Actually, this is still what I intend to do after I initially filled the
system from the bottom up.
If the system is bleed entirely by pumping in fluid from the bottum up,
then your configuration makes more sense. Although it will be difficult
to route the brake line. If you route it down to the leg and then
upwards, then again there is a pocket where air can collect. The only
solution is then to route it upwards directly from the caliper, which is
a problem if you have the leg fairings installed.
Frans
Message 11
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Subject: | DOTH Shobdon Thu. 15th |
Hi Folks,
The best weather this week seems to be Thursday again ( sorry
Bryan! ). We have a voucher in Pilot for Shobdon, always a favourite,
so I suggest there for a DOTH.
Usual time,
All the best, Paddy
Paddy Clarke
Europa G-KIMM
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) |
On Oct 12, 2009, at 3:18 PM, Frans Veldman wrote:
> Also, if I look inside the cylinders, they look like I found them in a
> junk yard, not like something that is supposed to be a brand new
> airplane part!
>
Frans,
It's been 4 years since I did this but I remember having the same
problem. It all boiled down to the condition of the cylinders as you
mentioned. I remember taking the thing apart completely and finding the
same crap in the cylinders. Others on this forum said they had the same
issue. The key is to clean both cylinders of all the junk. I seem to
remember there was a bad batch of these Europa received and cleaning
them properly freed up all my problems so the springs could do their
job. I remember using a small soft round wire brush with some paint
thinner or solvent and they came out looking like new. I then
reassembled them and they've worked perfect ever since. Your right to
bleed each cylinder by removing the set screw / bleeder until the
bubbles quit. Do your best to keep the bleeder at the highest point. It
will take a few try's with rags wrapped around it to catch the dot-5
that comes out. A word to the wise. Ad a dab of gasket seal to each set
screw / bleeder. Any kind sold at the auto parts store will work. Mine
continued to leek and therefore I kept getting air into the lines not
to mention the fluid all over the tunnel. The gasket seal on the
threads of both bleeder screws solved it.
Regards,
Jeff R.
A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes |
For what it's worth:
"look at any Cessna etc., you will find the 'bleed'nipple at the bottom.:
I owned a 1948 Cessna 170 that had Clevland brakes with bleed screw on bottom.
Always a bugger to bleed. Filling from bleed up helped, but also would help early
on if would loosen connection going into wheel cylinder, let air out bottom
up, and use that connection as a bleed from top down using wheel cylinder to
pressurize and close connection before releasing pedal.
1948 had a different master cylinder compared to newer ones.
Just a friendly reminder, don't let Dot 5 brake fluid out of it's container anywhere
near your aeroplane or shop if you need to do any layups, fill or paint.
"IT IS SILICONE"!
Ron Parigoris
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 14
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Subject: | Tri-gear Jamar brakes |
Frans your plan is depending on having an adequate reservoir.
How will you change the pipe connector and nipple over without the ingress
of air? On mine there is no reservoir. Once filled from bottom up and all
air is gone I just fill the master cylinders to the top of the plug threads
and slowly screw in the plug to allow the excess to squeeze out of the
threads with rags packed round to soak up any spillage.
But don't let me confuse you .....mine are not finger brakes and not Jamar !
Regards
Bob.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman
Sent: 12 October 2009 22:28
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes
Robert C Harrison wrote:
> Hi! Frans. If you are filling oil from the bottom,(that is with the
> bleed (filling) nipple at the bottom, as you say air rises so there
> will not be a pocket of it in the slave cylinder top, you will expel
> all the air out of the master cylinder. If the bleed nipple is at the
> top of the slave cylinder and you are trying to expel air downwards
> and back to the master cylinder it won't oblige! You are actually NOT
> using it as a "bleed" nipple in this application you are using it as
> a filling nipple to expel the air upwards and to the master cylinder.
Ok, got that. But I never intended to bleed it this way, but just
"normally" like with cars: top up the reservoir, push the brake and open
the nipple, close it, release brake, and repeat until the air is gone.
Actually, this is still what I intend to do after I initially filled the
system from the bottom up.
If the system is bleed entirely by pumping in fluid from the bottum up,
then your configuration makes more sense. Although it will be difficult
to route the brake line. If you route it down to the leg and then
upwards, then again there is a pocket where air can collect. The only
solution is then to route it upwards directly from the caliper, which is
a problem if you have the leg fairings installed.
Frans
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