---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/12/09: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:11 AM - Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) (Frans Veldman) 2. 05:09 AM - SV: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) (Sidsel og Svein Johnsen) 3. 05:18 AM - Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) (Karl Heindl) 4. 10:27 AM - Re: SV: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) (Frans Veldman) 5. 11:52 AM - Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (Robert C Harrison) 6. 12:52 PM - Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (Frans Veldman) 7. 01:19 PM - Re: SV: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) (Frans Veldman) 8. 01:41 PM - Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (Robert C Harrison) 9. 02:26 PM - Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (Karl Heindl) 10. 02:35 PM - Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (Frans Veldman) 11. 02:35 PM - DOTH Shobdon Thu. 15th (Paddy Clarke) 12. 02:39 PM - Re: SV: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) (JEFF ROBERTS) 13. 02:43 PM - Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (rparigoris) 14. 02:55 PM - Re: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (Robert C Harrison) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:11:07 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) In the archives I have seen that others have had problems with these brakes as well, but few wrote what helped them to finally get rid of the air, and/or to fix the unit. I couldn't bleed my starboard brake by conventional means (from top to bottom), but when I finally injected dot5 into the bleed nipple until the level in the reservoir raised by 1/2, the brake was no longer spongy. I couldn't get it to the end-stop anymore. Satisfied with how it was, I decided not to mess anymore with it and I left it there. For injecting the fluid I used an injection thing from the VET (don't know the proper name in English) but instead of a needle, I attached a plastic tube to it. This worked well. Needless to say I used quite a large unit. The port brake however, where I applied the same method, never got rid of the air. Even worse, if I then try to bleed from top to bottom, I can get one throw of the brake lever (with a squirt of fluid going out of the bleed nipple) and after that, it feels like it is empty (no resistance, and no significant fluid ejection). Since I have been doing this at least 20 times (inject into the bleed nipple until the reservoir level rises by half, followed by bleeding the conventional way) I suspect something is wrong here. I also winched the airplane halfway up the trailer, so it was pointing its tail up, to easy any air out of the Jamar thing, but it didn't change anything. There was one anomaly: while it was pretty easy to inject the fluid on the starboard side (the one that worked so well), it was in the beginning almost impossible to get some fluid into the port side, it gave a feeling like it was blocked. As the manual suggest that it should be possible to do it this way, I increased force until it felt like something gave way, and after that it was behaving and feeling like the starboard side (except that it keeps feeling spongy, whatever I try, and after one squirt it feels "empty"). Give the massive amounts of fluid I injected, and pressure applied, I'm sure there are no leaks in the system (otherwise it would have left obvious traces of the slippery stuff somewhere in the fuselage). Actually, the brakes have worked for a while last year (although both sides were somewhat spongy) when I installed the brakes and filled it up with fluid to check its function, but never bothered to get it completely free of air, because I figured that I would have to disconnect something again in a later stage. Now I'm preparing for "first flight" and tries to get everything in perfect condition, I seem to be stuck with this... Any ideas? Should I try harder, or might something be wrong with the Jamar unit? Do the symptoms indicate a fault? Frans ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:39 AM PST US From: "Sidsel og Svein Johnsen" Subject: SV: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) Frans, I do not recognize the name "Jamar" - are these the tunnel-mounted finger-brakes supplied by Europa? If so, maybe this can help: When bleeding one side, the finger lever of the other side must be held all the way back (as far as you get it). Otherwise, a cross-connection between the two sides is open and air from one side escapes to the other side and vice versa. Use a string attached to the safety harness or some other suitable point to tighten and hold first one, then the other lever back. Hope this helps! Regards, Svein LN-SKJ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:53 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) Frans=2C Everyone has come up with a different solution. I had identical problems an d here is what worked for me: make sure the nipple is at the bottom of the brake=2C not the top. open it and submerse it in a container containing brake fluid. maybe attach a short piece of hose first as you did for your syringe. this way no air c an enter again from the bottom. now fill the reservoir until it appears full. it is best if someone can hel p and keep the reservoir topped up . you now keep operating the brake lever - you will see bubbles of air comin g out at the bottom. keep operating the lever until no more air comes out. close the nipple and do same on the other side. Karl > Date: Mon=2C 12 Oct 2009 13:01:52 +0200 > From: frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) > l> > > In the archives I have seen that others have had problems with these > brakes as well=2C but few wrote what helped them to finally get rid of th e > air=2C and/or to fix the unit. > > I couldn't bleed my starboard brake by conventional means (from top to > bottom)=2C but when I finally injected dot5 into the bleed nipple until > the level in the reservoir raised by 1/2=2C the brake was no longer > spongy. I couldn't get it to the end-stop anymore. Satisfied with how it > was=2C I decided not to mess anymore with it and I left it there. For > injecting the fluid I used an injection thing from the VET (don't know > the proper name in English) but instead of a needle=2C I attached a > plastic tube to it. This worked well. Needless to say I used quite a > large unit. > > The port brake however=2C where I applied the same method=2C never got ri d > of the air. Even worse=2C if I then try to bleed from top to bottom=2C I can > get one throw of the brake lever (with a squirt of fluid going out of > the bleed nipple) and after that=2C it feels like it is empty (no > resistance=2C and no significant fluid ejection). > Since I have been doing this at least 20 times (inject into the bleed > nipple until the reservoir level rises by half=2C followed by bleeding th e > conventional way) I suspect something is wrong here. > I also winched the airplane halfway up the trailer=2C so it was pointing > its tail up=2C to easy any air out of the Jamar thing=2C but it didn't > change anything. > > There was one anomaly: while it was pretty easy to inject the fluid on > the starboard side (the one that worked so well)=2C it was in the > beginning almost impossible to get some fluid into the port side=2C it > gave a feeling like it was blocked. As the manual suggest that it should > be possible to do it this way=2C I increased force until it felt like > something gave way=2C and after that it was behaving and feeling like the > starboard side (except that it keeps feeling spongy=2C whatever I try=2C and > after one squirt it feels "empty"). > > Give the massive amounts of fluid I injected=2C and pressure applied=2C I 'm > sure there are no leaks in the system (otherwise it would have left > obvious traces of the slippery stuff somewhere in the fuselage). > > Actually=2C the brakes have worked for a while last year (although both > sides were somewhat spongy) when I installed the brakes and filled it up > with fluid to check its function=2C but never bothered to get it > completely free of air=2C because I figured that I would have to > disconnect something again in a later stage. Now I'm preparing for > "first flight" and tries to get everything in perfect condition=2C I seem > to be stuck with this... > > Any ideas? Should I try harder=2C or might something be wrong with the > Jamar unit? Do the symptoms indicate a fault? > > Frans > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:27:54 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: SV: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) Sidsel og Svein Johnsen wrote: > > > Frans, > > I do not recognize the name "Jamar" - are these the tunnel-mounted > finger-brakes supplied by Europa? Yep. > If so, maybe this can help: When bleeding one side, the finger lever of the > other side must be held all the way back (as far as you get it). I did that. I also turned the unit in all possible directions when bleeding it. In the last two days I have worked liters of dot5 through the system (and reused as much of it as possible of course, but lost at least half a liter in cumulative drips). Whatever I try, the port side always behaves the same; it may feel promising some times, but after the first squirt, it just doesn't pump anymore. So, I hate to have to come to the conclusion that the unit itself is somehow defective. I took it out, but now I'm puzzled how to disassemble it. Various people on this forum have written in the past about changing seals etc. but I'm ashamed to not have a clue yet how to open up the unit. There is a tiny screw on the side, but taking it out doesn't change a thing. There are no doors, no panels, nothing, or they have hidden it magically. So I assume that some has to give near the place where the lever comes out. It is tempting to pull on the lever until something gives, but before I do that I want to be sure that I didn't miss something. Very very frustrating all this. Dot5 all over the place, the floor and workbence are slippery from that stuff (I always work as clean as possible but this silicone stuff seems to go everywhere by itself), my hands are sore of squeezing, braking and pumping, and so far not any progress. This brake bleeding thing is on my nomination for the most hated job on an Europa. If I have to fiddle with that Jamar thing much longer to get it working, I might alltogether toss that thing away. What is involved to convert to a Matco unit? As I already finished the interior, can I reuse the existing slots for the levers? Is it plug and play, or is some surgery needed? Thanks in advance for any advice. Frans ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:52:12 AM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes Hi! Frans I'm not familiar with the JAMAR term you use. I have trike foot brakes not finger brakes. However I forced fluid up from the bottom using a lemonade bottle linked to the nipple (You will be using a large vets SYRINGE) However, have you realized that the bleed nipple at the brake end needs to be on the bottom of the slave cylinder and the pipe connection to the master cylinders need to be on the top? Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 12 October 2009 12:02 Subject: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) In the archives I have seen that others have had problems with these brakes as well, but few wrote what helped them to finally get rid of the air, and/or to fix the unit. I couldn't bleed my starboard brake by conventional means (from top to bottom), but when I finally injected dot5 into the bleed nipple until the level in the reservoir raised by 1/2, the brake was no longer spongy. I couldn't get it to the end-stop anymore. Satisfied with how it was, I decided not to mess anymore with it and I left it there. For injecting the fluid I used an injection thing from the VET (don't know the proper name in English) but instead of a needle, I attached a plastic tube to it. This worked well. Needless to say I used quite a large unit. The port brake however, where I applied the same method, never got rid of the air. Even worse, if I then try to bleed from top to bottom, I can get one throw of the brake lever (with a squirt of fluid going out of the bleed nipple) and after that, it feels like it is empty (no resistance, and no significant fluid ejection). Since I have been doing this at least 20 times (inject into the bleed nipple until the reservoir level rises by half, followed by bleeding the conventional way) I suspect something is wrong here. I also winched the airplane halfway up the trailer, so it was pointing its tail up, to easy any air out of the Jamar thing, but it didn't change anything. There was one anomaly: while it was pretty easy to inject the fluid on the starboard side (the one that worked so well), it was in the beginning almost impossible to get some fluid into the port side, it gave a feeling like it was blocked. As the manual suggest that it should be possible to do it this way, I increased force until it felt like something gave way, and after that it was behaving and feeling like the starboard side (except that it keeps feeling spongy, whatever I try, and after one squirt it feels "empty"). Give the massive amounts of fluid I injected, and pressure applied, I'm sure there are no leaks in the system (otherwise it would have left obvious traces of the slippery stuff somewhere in the fuselage). Actually, the brakes have worked for a while last year (although both sides were somewhat spongy) when I installed the brakes and filled it up with fluid to check its function, but never bothered to get it completely free of air, because I figured that I would have to disconnect something again in a later stage. Now I'm preparing for "first flight" and tries to get everything in perfect condition, I seem to be stuck with this... Any ideas? Should I try harder, or might something be wrong with the Jamar unit? Do the symptoms indicate a fault? Frans ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:52:00 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes Robert C Harrison wrote: Hi Robert, > However, have you realized that the bleed nipple at the brake end needs to > be on the bottom of the slave cylinder and the pipe connection to the master > cylinders need to be on the top? Why would that be? According to the manual, the bleed nipple should point forward (which happens to be the upper connector). I felt no suspicion doing it that way, because air tends to rise, so it seemed logical to have the bleed nipple on top, that way any air in the caliper will collect near the bleed nipple. Apart from that, the brake line will then nicely follow the leg so the brake line won't dangle into the air. Maybe you are right that it should be the other way around, but could you please also explain why? Frans ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:19:30 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: SV: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) I wrote: > I took it out, but now I'm puzzled how to disassemble it. Ok, I managed to find the secret. blush. Now you all know I'm not a brake expert. So, the next problem is: is it normal what I'm seeing? When I turned the cap loose, nothing happened. It might be that the whole contents should be launched by the spring, but it didn't. But then again, maybe that is normal. The thing with the white disk was easy to get out, but the rubber seal (?) just above the spring is stuck. If you look at the picture, in the upper brake cylinder, I left it inside without touching. It stays there despite the spring, and it is also not nicely alined with the hole of the metal cap of the spring (ok, maybe that is normal too). Both sides were equal. In the bottom cylinder, I took everything out. The rupper thing doesn't move by itself, but is still easy to get out. But if it is supposed to move freely inside the cylinder, then this unit has a fault. Near the bottom (when the spring is fully depressed) the rubber thing is pushed back, but it is erratic at best. If I take it out, and put the thing with the white disk in it, then it moves freely. So the problem is not the white disk. Also, if I look inside the cylinders, they look like I found them in a junk yard, not like something that is supposed to be a brand new airplane part! So, after all, it could be that the problem was not so much air in the system, but a sticking piston. Then squeezing in fluid via the bleed nipple would force the piston back (I could indeed feel a resistance, something giving way, then after a while followed again by increased resistance), and trying to bleed from top to bottom would give me just one throw, and the sticking piston would not allow the fluid to refill the cylinder. The only thing that doesn't match is that I remember that the brake lever still had some spring action, but maybe I'm wrong here. Assuming that my findings are not according to the way it should have been (can anyone confirm that the spring should be able to push everything out by itself?), what would be the best way to fix it? Do I need to replace the sticking rubber caps or do they still look ok? About the history of these parts: I bought the kit from a previous owner, who never really started the kit, and had it stored for several years. He wanted to get his PPL but failed to get a medical. So, after several years, he sold it to me. The original foot brakes came with it, but also the finger brake conversion kit. I assume he has bought that when it came available. I installed the brake system in 2008, and that was the first time it was lubricated. The brake levers always felt somewhat "sticky". The unit has only seen DOT5. Could it be that the rubber seals are dried out or something? Frans ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:41:07 PM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes Hi! Frans. If you are filling oil from the bottom,(that is with the bleed (filling) nipple at the bottom, as you say air rises so there will not be a pocket of it in the slave cylinder top, you will expel all the air out of the master cylinder. If the bleed nipple is at the top of the slave cylinder and you are trying to expel air downwards and back to the master cylinder it won't oblige! You are actually NOT using it as a "bleed" nipple in this application you are using it as a filling nipple to expel the air upwards and to the master cylinder. Hope you understand? Exasperating isn't it ? Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 12 October 2009 20:47 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes Robert C Harrison wrote: Hi Robert, > However, have you realized that the bleed nipple at the brake end needs to > be on the bottom of the slave cylinder and the pipe connection to the master > cylinders need to be on the top? Why would that be? According to the manual, the bleed nipple should point forward (which happens to be the upper connector). I felt no suspicion doing it that way, because air tends to rise, so it seemed logical to have the bleed nipple on top, that way any air in the caliper will collect near the bleed nipple. Apart from that, the brake line will then nicely follow the leg so the brake line won't dangle into the air. Maybe you are right that it should be the other way around, but could you please also explain why? Frans ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:26:25 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes Frans=2C look at any Cessna etc.=2C you will find the 'bleed'nipple at the bottom. Karl > From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes > Date: Mon=2C 12 Oct 2009 21:40:42 +0100 > co.uk> > > Hi! Frans. > If you are filling oil from the bottom=2C(that is with the bleed (filling ) > nipple at the bottom=2C as you say air rises so there will not be a pocke t of > it in the slave cylinder top=2C you will expel all the air out of the mas ter > cylinder. If the bleed nipple is at the top of the slave cylinder and you > are trying to expel air downwards and back to the master cylinder it won' t > oblige! > You are actually NOT using it as a "bleed" nipple in this application you > are using it as a filling nipple to expel the air upwards and to the mast er > cylinder. > Hope you understand? Exasperating isn't it ? > Regards > Bob Harrison G-PTAG > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldma n > Sent: 12 October 2009 20:47 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes > l> > > Robert C Harrison wrote: > > > Hi Robert=2C > > > However=2C have you realized that the bleed nipple at the brake end nee ds to > > be on the bottom of the slave cylinder and the pipe connection to the > master > > cylinders need to be on the top? > > Why would that be? > > According to the manual=2C the bleed nipple should point forward (which > happens to be the upper connector). I felt no suspicion doing it that > way=2C because air tends to rise=2C so it seemed logical to have the blee d > nipple on top=2C that way any air in the caliper will collect near the > bleed nipple. Apart from that=2C the brake line will then nicely follow > the leg so the brake line won't dangle into the air. > > Maybe you are right that it should be the other way around=2C but could > you please also explain why? > > Frans > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:18 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes Robert C Harrison wrote: > Hi! Frans. If you are filling oil from the bottom,(that is with the > bleed (filling) nipple at the bottom, as you say air rises so there > will not be a pocket of it in the slave cylinder top, you will expel > all the air out of the master cylinder. If the bleed nipple is at the > top of the slave cylinder and you are trying to expel air downwards > and back to the master cylinder it won't oblige! You are actually NOT > using it as a "bleed" nipple in this application you are using it as > a filling nipple to expel the air upwards and to the master cylinder. Ok, got that. But I never intended to bleed it this way, but just "normally" like with cars: top up the reservoir, push the brake and open the nipple, close it, release brake, and repeat until the air is gone. Actually, this is still what I intend to do after I initially filled the system from the bottom up. If the system is bleed entirely by pumping in fluid from the bottum up, then your configuration makes more sense. Although it will be difficult to route the brake line. If you route it down to the leg and then upwards, then again there is a pocket where air can collect. The only solution is then to route it upwards directly from the caliper, which is a problem if you have the leg fairings installed. Frans ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:18 PM PST US From: Paddy Clarke Subject: Europa-List: DOTH Shobdon Thu. 15th Hi Folks, The best weather this week seems to be Thursday again ( sorry Bryan! ). We have a voucher in Pilot for Shobdon, always a favourite, so I suggest there for a DOTH. Usual time, All the best, Paddy Paddy Clarke Europa G-KIMM ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:29 PM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: SV: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes (breaks?) On Oct 12, 2009, at 3:18 PM, Frans Veldman wrote: > Also, if I look inside the cylinders, they look like I found them in a > junk yard, not like something that is supposed to be a brand new > airplane part! > Frans, It's been 4 years since I did this but I remember having the same problem. It all boiled down to the condition of the cylinders as you mentioned. I remember taking the thing apart completely and finding the same crap in the cylinders. Others on this forum said they had the same issue. The key is to clean both cylinders of all the junk. I seem to remember there was a bad batch of these Europa received and cleaning them properly freed up all my problems so the springs could do their job. I remember using a small soft round wire brush with some paint thinner or solvent and they came out looking like new. I then reassembled them and they've worked perfect ever since. Your right to bleed each cylinder by removing the set screw / bleeder until the bubbles quit. Do your best to keep the bleeder at the highest point. It will take a few try's with rags wrapped around it to catch the dot-5 that comes out. A word to the wise. Ad a dab of gasket seal to each set screw / bleeder. Any kind sold at the auto parts store will work. Mine continued to leek and therefore I kept getting air into the lines not to mention the fluid all over the tunnel. The gasket seal on the threads of both bleeder screws solved it. Regards, Jeff R. A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes From: "rparigoris" For what it's worth: "look at any Cessna etc., you will find the 'bleed'nipple at the bottom.: I owned a 1948 Cessna 170 that had Clevland brakes with bleed screw on bottom. Always a bugger to bleed. Filling from bleed up helped, but also would help early on if would loosen connection going into wheel cylinder, let air out bottom up, and use that connection as a bleed from top down using wheel cylinder to pressurize and close connection before releasing pedal. 1948 had a different master cylinder compared to newer ones. Just a friendly reminder, don't let Dot 5 brake fluid out of it's container anywhere near your aeroplane or shop if you need to do any layups, fill or paint. "IT IS SILICONE"! Ron Parigoris Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:34 PM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes Frans your plan is depending on having an adequate reservoir. How will you change the pipe connector and nipple over without the ingress of air? On mine there is no reservoir. Once filled from bottom up and all air is gone I just fill the master cylinders to the top of the plug threads and slowly screw in the plug to allow the excess to squeeze out of the threads with rags packed round to soak up any spillage. But don't let me confuse you .....mine are not finger brakes and not Jamar ! Regards Bob. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 12 October 2009 22:28 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear Jamar brakes Robert C Harrison wrote: > Hi! Frans. If you are filling oil from the bottom,(that is with the > bleed (filling) nipple at the bottom, as you say air rises so there > will not be a pocket of it in the slave cylinder top, you will expel > all the air out of the master cylinder. If the bleed nipple is at the > top of the slave cylinder and you are trying to expel air downwards > and back to the master cylinder it won't oblige! You are actually NOT > using it as a "bleed" nipple in this application you are using it as > a filling nipple to expel the air upwards and to the master cylinder. Ok, got that. But I never intended to bleed it this way, but just "normally" like with cars: top up the reservoir, push the brake and open the nipple, close it, release brake, and repeat until the air is gone. Actually, this is still what I intend to do after I initially filled the system from the bottom up. If the system is bleed entirely by pumping in fluid from the bottum up, then your configuration makes more sense. Although it will be difficult to route the brake line. If you route it down to the leg and then upwards, then again there is a pocket where air can collect. The only solution is then to route it upwards directly from the caliper, which is a problem if you have the leg fairings installed. Frans ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.