Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:27 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Frans Veldman)
2. 12:51 AM - Help Please!! (JonSmith)
3. 01:04 AM - Re: Mod 73 (JonSmith)
4. 01:22 AM - Re: Help Please!! (Frans Veldman)
5. 01:35 AM - Re: Mod 73 ...my reply to Fred Klein on subject. (Robert C Harrison)
6. 01:51 AM - Re: Tailplane Pip Pins Source (R Holder)
7. 01:54 AM - Re: Help Please!! (Robert C Harrison)
8. 02:21 AM - Re: Help Please!! ()
9. 04:13 AM - Re: Tailplane Pip Pins Source (William Daniell)
10. 06:55 AM - Re: Help Please!! (JonSmith)
11. 08:43 AM - Re: Selling Europa XS motorglider kit (Ralph K. Hallett III)
12. 09:14 AM - Re: Help Please!! (Frans Veldman)
13. 09:18 AM - Monowheel master cylinder? (John & Paddy Wigney)
14. 09:43 AM - Re: Mod 73 (John & Paddy Wigney)
15. 10:56 AM - Re: Help Please!! (Bud Yerly)
16. 11:14 AM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Bill Henderson)
17. 11:25 AM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Bob Borger)
18. 11:51 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Bud Yerly)
19. 11:52 AM - Re: Mod 73 - RESEND (John & Paddy Wigney)
20. 12:13 PM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Raimo Toivio)
21. 12:36 PM - Re: Mod 73 (JEFF ROBERTS)
22. 12:37 PM - NPPL or JAR Which licence should I obtain (Design4p)
23. 12:43 PM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Bob Borger)
24. 01:57 PM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Robert C Harrison)
25. 02:03 PM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Robert C Harrison)
26. 02:19 PM - Re: NPPL or JAR Which licence should I obtain (pjeffers@talktalk.net)
27. 04:20 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Graham Singleton)
28. 05:30 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Fred Klein)
29. 08:40 PM - Re: Tailplane Pip Pins Source (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Fred Klein wrote:
> why implement Mod 73 when there is no evidence that a problem
> with the original design exists?
Because it makes sense. The changes imposed by mod 73 enhance the safety
of the aircraft. The pip pins are intended to hinder outboard movements
of the tail plane, not to take over torque loads. So changing the design
so that the parts involved can only do what they are supposed to do, and
nothing else, is a valuable improvement.
Whether a real accident has happened or not is not really my concern.
The good thing about the accident was that is was a reason to look again
with an eagle eye to the design of the Europa, and to correct any
(theoretical) flaws. Mod 73 was a result of that.
Frans
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Hi, I'm just on the last stage of completing the mods 52 and 74, (weight increase
and wing pin etc..) which is making the spar strap.
I've laid up the spar strap which seems to have gone well but - you've guessed
it - I can't get the wings apart again!
I was wondering if anyone has any tips for doing this. It does say in the instructions
that a "scissor jack" may be needed, so I'd guessed it was going to be
tricky! Is this a car type jack and if so, where is the best place to use
it? I don't want to destroy anything! Bear in mind the wings are fully complete
with root fairings etc.
Cheers, Jon
G-TERN, classic mono.
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Hi, I'm very happy to have completed this mod, if only for peace of mind. Whether
or not the pre-mod design was actually a contributing factor to the failure
or not may never be known for sure but the mod is a good one and I am now happy
in my mind that it is certainly not possible for that potential problem to
occur in the future. Any improvement in design is good in my book.
BTW, the wing failure and the addressing mod (74) was the rear wing root pin (that
takes the pip pin), not the flap pin.
Cheers, Jon
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Help Please!! |
JonSmith wrote:
> I've laid up the spar strap which seems to have gone well but -
> you've guessed it - I can't get the wings apart again!
I would try it with a high-lift-jack, as commenly used by off-roaders:
http://www.vislandrovers.nl/extra/HighLiftJacks.php
These "clamp" can get far apart enough to clamp over the ends of the
wing spars, and they can be configured either to move outwards (like
lifting a car) or compressing (like you need to force the wing spar to
slide out of the strap).
If this doesn't work, you can try to heat up the connection between both
wing spars.
If nothing helps, you can always take the spar strap apart again, clean
up the mess, and after releasing the wings, build the strap again from
scratch....
Frans
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Mod 73 ...my reply to Fred Klein on subject. |
Hi! Fred
Whilst I don't purport to be an authority I must contribute as follows:-
As frustrating as you may find it, the Mod 73 identifies a positive
eventuality of the centre bush becoming unbonded and allowing the
stabilators to migrate outwards and so disengage from the drive pins at the
close out rib end. Indeed only a small number were found to have become
unbonded but unless mod 73 is effected then you will never be sure, nuisance
though it is.
I understand that the main failure found on G-OFHC was a delamination of
the final lay ups on the WING close out rib (due to insufficient scuffing
preparation (on a photo I saw) and not least by the nearby aft wing lift pin
pulling out of the threaded stack of aluminium/layup sandwiches in the rib
close out , the aluminium plates having individually moved during curing
resulting in the drilled hole prior to threading missing full engagement of
the plates.
More recent kits have wider plates allowing for more error of centralization
of the hole, the original kits only used 1" wide plates allowing for minimal
error but the kit instructions did warn of the potential for the plates to
move during working and curing.
It was not the flap pin which failed but indeed the flap drive pin just may
have become disengaged by the flap moving outboard.
Whichever came first to precipitate the sequence of events is somewhat
immaterial, both mods to wing and stabilators are in best interest but also
serious checks of the degree of engagement of the flap drive pin into the
flap drive tube when the flaps are deployed should be followed as per Europa
Technical Bulletin.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: 14 October 2009 07:13
Subject: Europa-List: Mod 73
With the premise that the only stupid questions are those which aren't
asked, I have a couple for anyone who'd like to comment on this Mod 73.
As I recall, Mod 73 is a direct outcome of the initial concerns
following William Mills' tragic in-flight break up...particularly a
concern that the triggering event was one of the tailplanes moving
outboard and decoupling from the pins on the torque tube flange.
Following the grounding of UK-based Europas, Mod 73 was devised,
approved, and implemented on the entire UK fleet as well as on many
other aircraft based elsewhere. From the list prepared of those who
implimented Mod 73 (I don't believe) any instances were discovered or
reported of incipient failures.
Subsequently, the accident investigation (if I recall correctly)
determined that the triggering event was a failure caused by the
incorrect location of embedded aluminum plates on the inboard face of
a flap...a condition which precluded the proper threading for the flap
pin which was pulled free and destabilised the aircraft...a condition
totally unrelated to issues intended to be addressed by Mod 73.
If I am even partially incorrect thus far, please enlighten me.
So my questions are:
- Is Mod 73 a required mod for any aircraft based outside of the
UK?...particularly in the US?
- If not, why implement Mod 73 when there is no evidence that a
problem with the original design exists?
- Is Mod 73 an example of a prematurely arrived at "fix", approved and
implemented in a rush to get the Europa fleet airborne again before
the real culprit was determined...and...does it remain in effect today
out of a reluctance of regulatory agencies to set things right?
Thanks for any comments and input,
Fred
A194
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Tailplane Pip Pins Source |
DuaneFamly@aol.com wrote:
> Does anyone in the States have a source for these if longer ones are
> needed after finishing Mod 73?
>
This is what I was sent. Not sure if I got them from this
source. Look up the web site and if it isn't satisfactory
I will go and find my actual invoice. I bought a bunch for
UK owners.
The e-mail from RMP Industrial Supply
> The Carr-Lane CL-4-BPDR-1.15 double acting pins are
> 16.25-each/net. Shipment is approx 3-weeks after receipt
> of order (because of special grip length) plus transit
time.
> Credit card purchases are fine.
> Steve Raines
> RMP Industrial Supply Inc
> 3209 Stuart Drive
> Fort Worth, TX 76110
> 817-927-1966 phone
> 817-429-3184 phone-metro
> 800-543-4537 toll free
> 817-927-1978 fax
> www.rmpis.com
> sraines@rmpis.com
Richard Holder
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Hi! Jon
Hopefully you have done the spar strap/cuff with the wings pinned together
away from the aircraft ?
If so I would apply a small amount of heat round the cuff, but not where it
is bonded to the spar, whilst giving some sharp pulls to part the wings.
If the wings are fitted to the aircraft then I don't profess to have an
answer other than some sharp pulling shocks (with the pins out!) I'm
sceptical about the Sissor Jack idea other than again only with the wings
detached and jacking two pins apart which are only engaged in each wing
separately and that would involve some device being made since the jack
would have to engage on a pin either side of the assembly simultaneously.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JonSmith
Sent: 14 October 2009 09:00
Subject: Europa-List: Help Please!!
Hi, I'm just on the last stage of completing the mods 52 and 74, (weight
increase and wing pin etc..) which is making the spar strap.
I've laid up the spar strap which seems to have gone well but - you've
guessed it - I can't get the wings apart again!
I was wondering if anyone has any tips for doing this. It does say in the
instructions that a "scissor jack" may be needed, so I'd guessed it was
going to be tricky! Is this a car type jack and if so, where is the best
place to use it? I don't want to destroy anything! Bear in mind the wings
are fully complete with root fairings etc.
Cheers, Jon
G-TERN, classic mono.
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Help Please!! |
You could use a long sash clamp diagonally across the spar ends, with a very small
amount of heat if needed,
http://www.technologystudent.com/equip1/sash1.htm
best of luck
ivor
---- Frans Veldman <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl> wrote:
>
> JonSmith wrote:
>
> > I've laid up the spar strap which seems to have gone well but -
> > you've guessed it - I can't get the wings apart again!
>
> I would try it with a high-lift-jack, as commenly used by off-roaders:
> http://www.vislandrovers.nl/extra/HighLiftJacks.php
>
> These "clamp" can get far apart enough to clamp over the ends of the
> wing spars, and they can be configured either to move outwards (like
> lifting a car) or compressing (like you need to force the wing spar to
> slide out of the strap).
>
> If this doesn't work, you can try to heat up the connection between both
> wing spars.
>
> If nothing helps, you can always take the spar strap apart again, clean
> up the mess, and after releasing the wings, build the strap again from
> scratch....
>
> Frans
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Tailplane Pip Pins Source |
Yes I had exactly the same question
I would be interested in a pair also since I have yet to do this...if
you are ordering some.
Will
DuaneFamly@aol.com wrote:
> Does anyone in the States have a source for these if longer ones are
> needed after finishing Mod 73?
>
> Mike Duane A207A
> Redding, California
> XS Conventional Gear
> Jabiru 3300A
> Sensenich R64Z N
> Ground Adjustable Prop
> *
> *
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Help Please!! |
Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I'm going to have another go tonight with
a little heat and effort to start with!! Yes (Bob) the wings are pinned together
OFF the aircraft, but the only difficulty with using jacks etc on the spar
ends is that the rigging cup is bonded on the port wing thus the stbd wing's
spar tip is hidden within!!
Cheers, Jon
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Selling Europa XS motorglider kit |
Morning Keith,
I sent you a link to my add running on Barnstormers, but in case there
are problems here are some of the details.
I bought the kit in 2002 got off to a quick start and then 'life' got in
the way. She really is close to being finished, wings are closed out and
fitted, fuel system is ready to install as is the electrical system. The
panel is all but done with a Dynon 180, MicroAir 760, Garmin 320 and
power panel. The control surfaces are quick build so just need finish.
The 914 has zero time as does the Airmaster prop.
Please let me know what else you'd like to know or if you want more
pictures.
Thanks for your interest,
Ralph
Keith Hickling wrote:
> <keithhickling@clear.net.nz>
>
> Hello Ralph,
> Have you sold your Europa motorglider yet ? As I said previously I am
> very interested if you have not sold it, and would appreciate further
> details - eg how far advanced is your build, when was it purchased etc.
>
> Thanks,
> Regards,
>
> Keith Hickling,
> New Zealand.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph K. Hallett III"
> <n100rh@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 7:26 AM
> Subject: Europa-List: Selling Europa XS motorglider kit
>
>
>> I am selling my Europa XS motorglider kit, Rotax 914, Airmaster CS prop,
>> Dynon 180 etc. I've been flying an RV 6 and have lost interest in
>> finishing the Europa. The a/c is at Stead airport, home of the Reno Air
>> Races. All components are new zero time. $50,000 takes it all.
>> You may contact me via email at N100RH@sbcglobal.net and I will send you
>> a complete listing.
>> Thank you,
>> Ralph
>> Ralph Hallett III
>> Reno, NV
>>
>
>
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Help Please!! |
JonSmith wrote:
> <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I'm going to have another go
> tonight with a little heat and effort to start with!! Yes (Bob) the
> wings are pinned together OFF the aircraft, but the only difficulty
> with using jacks etc on the spar ends is that the rigging cup is
> bonded on the port wing thus the stbd wing's spar tip is hidden
> within!! Cheers, Jon
You could drill a large hole through the rigging cup so you can use a
bolt as a push rod. Heating the cup and temporarily removing it is
another non-critical thing you could do.
Succes!
Frans
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Monowheel master cylinder? |
Dear Europaphiles,
There has been quite a lot of discussion lately regarding problems on
tri-gear brakes. I now have a question on monowheel brakes.
The problem I have is that as the brake pads wear, the stroke on the
handle increases and the only way to fix this is to add fluid to the
cylinder since there is no external reservoir. This procedure is a bit
clumsy and fluid also has to be removed when new pads are fitted
Has anyone had success with fitting a different system with a reservoir
which avoids this problem? Any suggestions or comments would be welcome.
Cheers, John
N262WF, mono XS, 912S
Mooresville, North Carolina
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Regarding the tailplane retention issue, I attach some photos below of a
modification which precludes any chance of the tailplane becoming
detached. I think they are self explanatory. For those who get the
digest and have these photos stripped off, let me know if you are
interested and I can send them direct. This design is not mine and came
from Europe - my compliments to the original designer, I do not have a
record of his name. The end plug idea prevents enthusiastic helpers from
damaging critical components.
Cheers
ORIGINAL MESSAGE
From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Mod 73
With the premise that the only stupid questions are those which aren't
asked, I have a couple for anyone who'd like to comment on this Mod 73.
As I recall, Mod 73 is a direct outcome of the initial concerns
following William Mills' tragic in-flight break up...particularly a
concern that the triggering event was one of the tailplanes moving
outboard and decoupling from the pins on the torque tube flange.
Following the grounding of UK-based Europas, Mod 73 was devised,
approved, and implemented on the entire UK fleet as well as on many
other aircraft based elsewhere. -------------
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Help Please!! |
Jon,
I've done a number of these spar straps and all had to be disengaged
alone by me in the shop before the guys arrive.
Once cured, I use a long putty knife (flat blade scraper of about .025
inches) and slide it between the release tape and the glass strap.
When visually I see I have air around the contact points on the aft side
top and bottom, then I wiggle them.
I pull the pins out with the wings properly supported by saw horses or
suitable supports. Normally I have saw horses midway down the wing and
both spars pinned. When ready to remove I support the mid point with a
low saw horse or tool stand shimmed up to give support and make removal
of the pins uneventful.
I find that the removal of the pins and a slight up and down movement of
the wings clears any stubborn corners I couldn't get to release.
Lastly, I don't use a jack, but my back against one root side and my
foot against the other rib (properly padded if the wing fillets are on)
and push. I never had it fail me, but now that I am older, I have one
of the guys help me push as I don't have the flexibility I used to have.
A good jack is your auto screw jack with a properly sized piece of
lumber to join together between the ribs and light pressure is all that
is needed...
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations
----- Original Message -----
From: JonSmith<mailto:jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Help Please!!
<jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk<mailto:jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk>>
Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I'm going to have another go
tonight with a little heat and effort to start with!! Yes (Bob) the
wings are pinned together OFF the aircraft, but the only difficulty with
using jacks etc on the spar ends is that the rigging cup is bonded on
the port wing thus the stbd wing's spar tip is hidden within!!
Cheers, Jon
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org<http://www.europaowners.org/>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Europa-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
John,
Can you send again? Didn't see any pictures...
Thanks,
Bill
A010 Europa Monowheel Classic
----- Original Message -----
From: "John & Paddy Wigney" <johnwigney@windstream.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 12:25 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
> <johnwigney@windstream.net>
>
> Regarding the tailplane retention issue, I attach some photos below of a
> modification which precludes any chance of the tailplane becoming
> detached. I think they are self explanatory. For those who get the digest
> and have these photos stripped off, let me know if you are interested and
> I can send them direct. This design is not mine and came from Europe - my
> compliments to the original designer, I do not have a record of his name.
> The end plug idea prevents enthusiastic helpers from damaging critical
> components.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> ORIGINAL MESSAGE
>
> From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
> Subject: Europa-List: Mod 73
> With the premise that the only stupid questions are those which aren't
> asked, I have a couple for anyone who'd like to comment on this Mod 73.
> As I recall, Mod 73 is a direct outcome of the initial concerns following
> William Mills' tragic in-flight break up...particularly a concern that
> the triggering event was one of the tailplanes moving outboard and
> decoupling from the pins on the torque tube flange. Following the
> grounding of UK-based Europas, Mod 73 was devised, approved, and
> implemented on the entire UK fleet as well as on many other aircraft
> based elsewhere. -------------
>
>
>
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
John,
How 'bout posting them on the Europa Owners site. Appropriate place would be a
sub album in the "Builders photo album."
Thanks,
Bob Borger
On Wednesday, October 14, 2009, at 11:25AM, "John & Paddy Wigney" <johnwigney@windstream.net>
wrote:
>
>Regarding the tailplane retention issue, I attach some photos below of a
>modification which precludes any chance of the tailplane becoming
>detached. I think they are self explanatory. For those who get the
>digest and have these photos stripped off, let me know if you are
>interested and I can send them direct. This design is not mine and came
>from Europe - my compliments to the original designer, I do not have a
>record of his name. The end plug idea prevents enthusiastic helpers from
>damaging critical components.
>
>Cheers
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Fred,
Here is my two cents as an average builder:
Question 1
- Is Mod 73 a required mod for any aircraft based outside of the
UK?...particularly in the US?
My Comment:
The US declares you are the builder of the aircraft. You may modify or
choose not to modify your kit...It is your decision as the builder, as
the kit manufacturer is a 49% helper, but you are the builder. Just as
if you built the plane from scratch. It is highly recommended that all
ADs/mandatory actions directed by your kit manufacturer be followed. If
the UK's PFA or LAA grounds their planes, technically you don't have to
ground your experimental, but as some kit manufacturers have found, the
FAA can ground a kit if it believes losses are occurring due to design
problems or recommended/directed construction procedures... Your plane
is an experimental, each is technically different and the rules for FAA
involvement in monitoring the accidents, as in certified aircraft, does
not receive the same scrutiny... SLSA/ELSA have different rules like
certified aircraft.
Question 2
- If not, why implement Mod 73 when there is no evidence that a
problem with the original design exists?
My comment: This is a builder/maintainer issue. All builders are not
created equal nor is care always taken putting the tailplanes on and
off. Occasionally, the tailplanes are never taken off and rust on.
When taken off for inspections, so much force is used, the inner and or
outer bearing may be loosened and or broken loose and missed by the
owner. I have also seen that in their maintenance exuberance, owners
have sprayed oil into the stab holes and melted all the foam away from
the bearings leaving only glass to support the outer bearing. Believe
it or not some of the pip pin holes are so sloppy, pins can fall out and
other methods are used to secure the pin and tail plane...
If built and maintained properly, you may never have a problem, but the
Mod 73 tailplane mod, adds extra glass and support to ensure your outer
bearing is solidly glassed and in fact glassed more solidly. Down side
is you may need a longer pip pin. Oh well. Go to McMaster Carr.
Question 3
- Is Mod 73 an example of a prematurely arrived at "fix", approved and
implemented in a rush to get the Europa fleet airborne again before
the real culprit was determined...and...does it remain in effect today
out of a reluctance of regulatory agencies to set things right?
Comment:
Yes and no.
It is a quick and necessary bandaid to get the fleet flying abroad and
properly inspect the fleet.
I would prefer to see all of us to use the Europa Club mod of a tube of
glass supporting both bearings. This is a great mod, in my opinion, and
should be the standard. The NG control surfaces bond in the bearings
much more securely...Dare I say properly. But the bandaid of outer
bearing reinforcement is a great way of getting more support around the
bearing and checking the fleet.
The problem with the accident investigations is the cart and horse.
What caused Williams accident for sure? He had two problems, both
should have been caught and fixed during the build and through
subsequent inspections. The tail plane wobble is a point I harp on
constantly, that the stab should have no movement when attached. Yes, I
disagree with wallowing out the tube to allow the movement. Andy and I
have never seen eye to eye on this, but it doesn't hurt anything and
should flutter begin, the outer bearing is free to move a little. Dare
I say any flutter is BAD, and now you see why I disagree.
I have only found two flying aircraft with tailplane bearings broken
here at the shop. But I have done all the tailplanes IAW the mods,
because I believe it makes for a better product, and it is easy to sell
a plane with all the mods properly documented.
As an accident investigator in a prior life, we all die a little when we
loose a fellow aviator. It is our mission not to bury our loss by
saying it can't happen to me, but to try to make the aircraft,
procedures, or training better to save not just ourselves, but others
who come after us so they don't have to experience our loss.
Just my thoughts.
Bud Yerly
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Mod 73 - RESEND |
OOPS - RESEND WITH PHOTOS
Regarding the tailplane retention issue, I attach some photos below of a
modification which precludes any chance of the tailplane becoming
detached. I think they are self explanatory. For those who get the
digest and have these photos stripped off, let me know if you are
interested and I can send them direct. This design is not mine and came
from Europe - my compliments to the original designer, I do not have a
record of his name. The end plug idea prevents enthusiastic helpers from
damaging critical components.
Cheers, John
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Monowheel master cylinder? |
John,
That is true. It was just today I was thinking the same problem.
I filled the cylinder last spring and now after about 50 hrs flight time /100 landings
my brakes are almost gone.
As you well know the situation appears suddenly: day before everything OK but today
I cannot keep it there during magneto check. Brake pads are almost new like.
I mentioned this thing to one aircraft service man and he told there are several
brake systems (with no reservoir) with screw adjustable lever position - so
it is possible to compensate the increasing stroke.
I would love to have it. Adding fluid is not my favourite job.
Raimo OH-XRT 149 hrs
----- Original Message -----
From: "John & Paddy Wigney" <johnwigney@windstream.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:48 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder?
>
> Dear Europaphiles,
>
> There has been quite a lot of discussion lately regarding problems on
> tri-gear brakes. I now have a question on monowheel brakes.
>
> The problem I have is that as the brake pads wear, the stroke on the
> handle increases and the only way to fix this is to add fluid to the
> cylinder since there is no external reservoir. This procedure is a bit
> clumsy and fluid also has to be removed when new pads are fitted
>
> Has anyone had success with fitting a different system with a reservoir
> which avoids this problem? Any suggestions or comments would be welcome.
>
> Cheers, John
>
> N262WF, mono XS, 912S
> Mooresville, North Carolina
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Well said Bud!!!
Jeff Roberts
Eagleville Marketing Group / www.eaglevillemarketing.com
615-355-7575 Office
615-406-8651 Cell
615-534-1082 Fax
"Not Advertising to save money is like stopping your clock to save
time."
On Oct 14, 2009, at 12:42 PM, Bud Yerly wrote:
> Fred,
> Here is my two cents as an average builder:
> Question 1
> - Is Mod 73 a required mod for any aircraft based outside of the-
> UK?...particularly in the US?
> My Comment:
> The US declares you are the builder of the aircraft.- You may modify
> or choose not to modify your kit...It is your decision as the builder,
> as the kit manufacturer is a 49% helper,-but you are the builder.-
> Just as if you built the plane from scratch.- It is highly
recommended
> that all ADs/mandatory actions directed by your kit-manufacturer-be
> followed.- If the UK's PFA or LAA grounds their planes, technically
> you don't have to ground your experimental, but as-some kit
> manufacturers have-found, the FAA can-ground a kit if it believes
> losses are occurring due to design problems or recommended/directed
> construction procedures...- Your plane is an experimental, each is
> technically different and the rules for FAA involvement in monitoring
> the accidents, as in certified aircraft, does not receive the same
> scrutiny...- SLSA/ELSA have different rules like certified aircraft.
> -
> Question 2
> - If not, why implement Mod 73 when there is no evidence that a-
> problem with the original design exists?
> My comment:- This is a builder/maintainer issue.- All builders are
not
> created equal nor is care always taken putting the tailplanes on and
> off.- Occasionally, the tailplanes are never taken off and rust
on.--
> When taken off for inspections, so much force is used, the inner and
> or outer bearing may be loosened and or broken loose and missed by the
> owner.- I have also seen that in their maintenance exuberance,
owners
> have-sprayed oil-into the stab holes and melted all the foam away
from
> the bearings leaving only glass to support the outer bearing.-
Believe
> it or not some of the pip pin holes are so sloppy, pins can fall out
> and other methods are used to secure the pin and tail plane...-
> -
> If built and maintained properly, you may never have a problem, but
> the Mod 73 tailplane mod, adds extra glass and support to ensure your
> outer bearing is solidly glassed and in fact glassed more solidly.-
> Down side is you may need a longer pip pin.- Oh well.- Go to
McMaster
> Carr.
> -
> Question 3
> - Is Mod 73 an example of a prematurely arrived at "fix", approved
and-
> implemented in a rush to get the Europa fleet airborne again before-
> the real culprit was determined...and...does it remain in effect
today-
> out of a reluctance of regulatory agencies to set things right?
> Comment:
> Yes and no.
> It is a quick and necessary bandaid to get the fleet flying abroad and
> properly inspect the fleet.
> I would prefer to see all of us to use the Europa Club mod of a tube
> of glass supporting both bearings.- This is a great mod, in my
> opinion, and should be the standard.- The NG control surfaces bond
in
> the bearings much more securely...Dare I say properly.- But the
> bandaid of outer bearing reinforcement is a great way of getting more
> support around the bearing and checking the fleet.-
> -
> The problem with the accident investigations is the cart and horse.-
> What caused Williams accident for sure?- He had two problems, both
> should have been caught and fixed during the build and through
> subsequent inspections.- The tail plane wobble is a point I harp on
> constantly, that the stab should have no movement when attached.-
Yes,
> I disagree with wallowing out the tube to allow the movement.- Andy
> and I have never seen-eye to eye on this, but it doesn't hurt
anything
> and should flutter begin, the outer bearing is free to move a little.-
> Dare-I say any flutter is BAD,-and now you see why I disagree.-
> -
> I have only found two flying aircraft with tailplane bearings broken
> here-at the shop.- But I have done all the tailplanes IAW the
mods,
> because I believe it makes for a better product, and it is easy to
> sell a plane with all the mods properly documented.
> -
> As an accident investigator in a prior life, we all die a little when
> we loose a fellow aviator.- It is our mission not to bury our loss
by
> saying it-can't happen to me, but to try to make the aircraft,
> procedures, or training better to save not just ourselves, but others
> who come after us so they don't have to experience our loss.-
> -
> Just my thoughts.
> -
> Bud Yerly
> -
>
>
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | NPPL or JAR Which licence should I obtain |
Hi, I have been flying flexwing microlights for over 20 years and I will be purchasing
a Europa in the near future. My current licence is a PPL M. Can anyone
advise which licence I should obtain - NPPL or JAR. I will want to fly to
Europe on occations but mostly I will be flying within the UK.
Regards John
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Monowheel master cylinder? |
John & Raimo,
You should be able to find a source for some small industrial syringes.
They are handy for adding/removing brake fluid to/from the master cylinder
without creating too much mess.
I know that they are available from ACS, McMaster-Carr and Wicks.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/comptoolsyringe.php
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/tapertipapplicator.php
http://www.mcmaster.com/#syringes/=425n9t
http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_detail.php/pid=7939~subid=10381/index.html
I would imagine that there is an industrial supplier in your area where they
can be purchased.
Bob Borger
On Wednesday, October 14, 2009, at 02:16PM, "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
wrote:
>
>John,
>
>That is true. It was just today I was thinking the same problem.
>I filled the cylinder last spring and now after about 50 hrs flight time /100
landings my brakes are almost gone.
>As you well know the situation appears suddenly: day before everything OK but
today I cannot keep it there during magneto check. Brake pads are almost new like.
>
>I mentioned this thing to one aircraft service man and he told there are several
brake systems (with no reservoir) with screw adjustable lever position - so
it is possible to compensate the increasing stroke.
>
>I would love to have it. Adding fluid is not my favourite job.
>
>Raimo OH-XRT 149 hrs
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John & Paddy Wigney" <johnwigney@windstream.net>
>To: "Europa-List" <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:48 PM
>Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder?
>
>
>>
>> Dear Europaphiles,
>>
>> There has been quite a lot of discussion lately regarding problems on
>> tri-gear brakes. I now have a question on monowheel brakes.
>>
>> The problem I have is that as the brake pads wear, the stroke on the
>> handle increases and the only way to fix this is to add fluid to the
>> cylinder since there is no external reservoir. This procedure is a bit
>> clumsy and fluid also has to be removed when new pads are fitted
>>
>> Has anyone had success with fitting a different system with a reservoir
>> which avoids this problem? Any suggestions or comments would be welcome.
>>
>> Cheers, John
>>
>> N262WF, mono XS, 912S
>> Mooresville, North Carolina
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Monowheel master cylinder? |
If you need large syringes in small numbers go to your nearest helpful
vetenary surgeon.
Regards
Bob Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Borger
Sent: 14 October 2009 20:40
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder?
John & Raimo,
You should be able to find a source for some small industrial syringes.
They are handy for adding/removing brake fluid to/from the master cylinder
without creating too much mess.
I know that they are available from ACS, McMaster-Carr and Wicks.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/comptoolsyringe.php
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/tapertipapplicator.php
http://www.mcmaster.com/#syringes/=425n9t
http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_detail.php/pid=7939~subid=10381
/index.html
I would imagine that there is an industrial supplier in your area where they
can be purchased.
Bob Borger
On Wednesday, October 14, 2009, at 02:16PM, "Raimo Toivio"
<raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> wrote:
>
>John,
>
>That is true. It was just today I was thinking the same problem.
>I filled the cylinder last spring and now after about 50 hrs flight time
/100 landings my brakes are almost gone.
>As you well know the situation appears suddenly: day before everything OK
but today I cannot keep it there during magneto check. Brake pads are almost
new like.
>
>I mentioned this thing to one aircraft service man and he told there are
several brake systems (with no reservoir) with screw adjustable lever
position - so it is possible to compensate the increasing stroke.
>
>I would love to have it. Adding fluid is not my favourite job.
>
>Raimo OH-XRT 149 hrs
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John & Paddy Wigney" <johnwigney@windstream.net>
>To: "Europa-List" <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:48 PM
>Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder?
>
>
<johnwigney@windstream.net>
>>
>> Dear Europaphiles,
>>
>> There has been quite a lot of discussion lately regarding problems on
>> tri-gear brakes. I now have a question on monowheel brakes.
>>
>> The problem I have is that as the brake pads wear, the stroke on the
>> handle increases and the only way to fix this is to add fluid to the
>> cylinder since there is no external reservoir. This procedure is a bit
>> clumsy and fluid also has to be removed when new pads are fitted
>>
>> Has anyone had success with fitting a different system with a reservoir
>> which avoids this problem? Any suggestions or comments would be welcome.
>>
>> Cheers, John
>>
>> N262WF, mono XS, 912S
>> Mooresville, North Carolina
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Monowheel master cylinder? |
Raimo,
Don't forget the fluid in the system will shrink with the falling
temperatures in your climes, giving an accelerated impression of the brakes
wearing. (likewise be prepared for the brakes binding when the temperatures
get back high in the early summer although I've never heard of anyone
suffering this problem.)
Regards
Bob Harrison Europa Trike G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
Sent: 14 October 2009 20:17
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder?
John,
That is true. It was just today I was thinking the same problem.
I filled the cylinder last spring and now after about 50 hrs flight time
/100 landings my brakes are almost gone.
As you well know the situation appears suddenly: day before everything OK
but today I cannot keep it there during magneto check. Brake pads are almost
new like.
I mentioned this thing to one aircraft service man and he told there are
several brake systems (with no reservoir) with screw adjustable lever
position - so it is possible to compensate the increasing stroke.
I would love to have it. Adding fluid is not my favourite job.
Raimo OH-XRT 149 hrs
----- Original Message -----
From: "John & Paddy Wigney" <johnwigney@windstream.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:48 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder?
<johnwigney@windstream.net>
>
> Dear Europaphiles,
>
> There has been quite a lot of discussion lately regarding problems on
> tri-gear brakes. I now have a question on monowheel brakes.
>
> The problem I have is that as the brake pads wear, the stroke on the
> handle increases and the only way to fix this is to add fluid to the
> cylinder since there is no external reservoir. This procedure is a bit
> clumsy and fluid also has to be removed when new pads are fitted
>
> Has anyone had success with fitting a different system with a reservoir
> which avoids this problem? Any suggestions or comments would be welcome.
>
> Cheers, John
>
> N262WF, mono XS, 912S
> Mooresville, North Carolina
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: NPPL or JAR Which licence should I obtain |
If you wish to fly to Europe then as things stand, you need a JAR PPL. If on the
other hand you only wish to fly in the UK then an NPPL is all you need and it
will save you money as the medical requirements are considerably less onerous.
See more on the CAA web site on licensing.
I hope this helps a little
Pete Jeffers
-----Original Message-----
From: Design4p <jg4@bolton.ac.uk>
Sent: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:21
Subject: Europa-List: NPPL or JAR Which licence should I obtain
Hi, I have been flying flexwing microlights for over 20 years and I will be
purchasing a Europa in the near future. My current licence is a PPL M. Can
anyone advise which licence I should obtain - NPPL or JAR. I will want to fly
to Europe on occations but mostly I will be flying within the UK.
Regards John
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 27
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Bud Yerly wrote:
> Fred,
> Here is my two cents as an average builder:
> As an accident investigator in a prior life, we all die a little when
> we loose a fellow aviator. It is our mission not to bury our loss by
> saying it can't happen to me, but to try to make the aircraft,
> procedures, or training better to save not just ourselves, but others
> who come after us so they don't have to experience our loss.
> Bud Yerly
>
Bud
I couldn't agree more
Graham
Message 28
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
On Oct 14, 2009, at 4:18 PM, Graham Singleton wrote:
>> As an accident investigator in a prior life, we all die a little
>> when we loose a fellow aviator. It is our mission not to bury our
>> loss by saying it can't happen to me, but to try to make the
>> aircraft, procedures, or training better to save not just
>> ourselves, but others who come after us so they don't have to
>> experience our loss. Bud Yerly
>>
> Bud
> I couldn't agree more
> Graham
Graham...I too quite agree w/ Bud's sentiments.
In our common interest of making our aircraft better, would you
venture an opinion on the tailplane "fix" shown in John Wigney's
photos posted earlier today?
Thanks,
Fred
A194
Message 29
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Tailplane Pip Pins Source |
Richard,
It looks exactly like what I am looking for. But I am perplexed as to why
you ordered a grip length of only 1.15"? My original measures about 1.75"
and can't quite make it to allow the balls to expand after Mod 73. I am
looking to go to the 2" grip length because I don't see any problem with it
being a little longer as long as you don't glass over the hole at the bottom of
the tailplane. Will order this week after seeing if any UK builders need
assistance in getting them.
Anyone in the UK....or other places that might be having any shipping
issues with this item, please email me direct if I can help.
_DuaneFamly@aol.com_ (mailto:DuaneFamly@aol.com)
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300A
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|