Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:24 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Robert C Harrison)
2. 02:41 AM - Re: DOTH Shobdon Thu. 15th (Robert C Harrison)
3. 02:44 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Graham Singleton)
4. 03:50 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Raimo Toivio)
5. 03:59 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Raimo Toivio)
6. 04:00 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Peter Zutrauen)
7. 04:24 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Karl Heindl)
8. 04:24 AM - Re: Help Please!! (JonSmith)
9. 04:33 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Bob Borger)
10. 04:54 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Raimo Toivio)
11. 04:55 AM - Re: Mod 73 (craig bastin)
12. 05:19 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Bob Borger)
13. 06:21 AM - Re: Mod 73 (pjeffers@talktalk.net)
14. 06:42 AM - Brake cylinder (Jim Naylor)
15. 06:42 AM - test (Peter Jeffers)
16. 08:23 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Fred Klein)
17. 08:41 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Bud Yerly)
18. 09:25 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Karl Heindl)
19. 10:23 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Bud Yerly)
20. 10:42 AM - Re: Mod 73 (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
21. 11:58 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Raimo Toivio)
22. 12:39 PM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Bob Borger)
23. 12:39 PM - Re: Brake cylinder (Raimo Toivio)
24. 12:58 PM - Shobdon Apologies (Paddy Clarke)
25. 01:23 PM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Flying Farmer)
26. 01:55 PM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Tim Ward)
27. 05:43 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Graham Singleton)
28. 05:52 PM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Graham Singleton)
29. 06:56 PM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Robert Borger)
30. 07:07 PM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? ()
31. 07:10 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Karl Heindl)
32. 10:42 PM - Europa classic monowheel for sale (Michel AUVRAY)
Message 1
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Hi! Fred
You probably weren't asking me about my opinion of the photo's of the fix
which John Wigney published but here goes anyway.
I think it is an excellent fix with one note of caution which is that I
don't like shaving down the flange of the drive plate. I would have thought
it possible to make the lever bent in the right places to still do it's job
as per the concept, without weakening the drive plate.
Like it or not you now have my humble opinion!
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: 15 October 2009 01:28
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73
On Oct 14, 2009, at 4:18 PM, Graham Singleton wrote:
>> As an accident investigator in a prior life, we all die a little
>> when we loose a fellow aviator. It is our mission not to bury our
>> loss by saying it can't happen to me, but to try to make the
>> aircraft, procedures, or training better to save not just
>> ourselves, but others who come after us so they don't have to
>> experience our loss. Bud Yerly
>>
> Bud
> I couldn't agree more
> Graham
Graham...I too quite agree w/ Bud's sentiments.
In our common interest of making our aircraft better, would you
venture an opinion on the tailplane "fix" shown in John Wigney's
photos posted earlier today?
Thanks,
Fred
A194
Message 2
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| Subject: | DOTH Shobdon Thu. 15th |
Paddy I worked my nuts off yesterday to attend the Doth today but the damn
weather is really not doable at all and I'm probably one of the last to
throw the towel in !
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paddy Clarke
Sent: 12 October 2009 22:28
Subject: Europa-List: DOTH Shobdon Thu. 15th
Hi Folks,
The best weather this week seems to be Thursday again ( sorry Bryan! ). We
have a voucher in Pilot for Shobdon, always a favourite, so I suggest there
for a DOTH.
Usual time,
All the best, Paddy
Paddy Clarke
Europa G-KIMM
Message 3
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Fred Klein wrote:
>
Fred
imho John's solution is adding more engineering to fix a symptom. I
would prefer removing the cause, which is relying on the adhesion of
epoxy to stainless steel. Purely mechanical, no true bond. Better to
make a glass tube properly laid up onto the foam core and the ribs,
lined with a full length tube with lightening holes. Much more expensive
in labour but hey, we can always pay ourselves a bit less that day ;-)
The problem is the stainless inserts are not always circular and a bit
of swarf from the drillings make them jamb. Trouble!
Graham
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel master cylinder? |
Bob,
adding brake fluid is actually no problem. It takes let is say 30 minutes and I
use vet syringe or just a bottle with hose.
The point is: it is frustrating and ugly task to do regularly again and again.
Cannot understand why there is a design without reservoir.
Would be nice to find a solution where no more brake fluid games every 50 hrs or
so.
An idea: would it be possible to add an external aftermarket reservoir to the cylinders
filling hole?
Raimo OH.-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Borger" <rlborger@mac.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder?
>
> John & Raimo,
>
> You should be able to find a source for some small industrial syringes.
> They are handy for adding/removing brake fluid to/from the master cylinder
> without creating too much mess.
>
> I know that they are available from ACS, McMaster-Carr and Wicks.
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/comptoolsyringe.php
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/tapertipapplicator.php
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#syringes/=425n9t
> http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_detail.php/pid=7939~subid=10381/index.html
>
> I would imagine that there is an industrial supplier in your area where they
> can be purchased.
>
> Bob Borger
>
> On Wednesday, October 14, 2009, at 02:16PM, "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
wrote:
> >
> >John,
> >
> >That is true. It was just today I was thinking the same problem.
> >I filled the cylinder last spring and now after about 50 hrs flight time /100
landings my brakes are almost gone.
> >As you well know the situation appears suddenly: day before everything OK but
today I cannot keep it there during magneto check. Brake pads are almost new
like.
> >
> >I mentioned this thing to one aircraft service man and he told there are several
brake systems (with no reservoir) with screw adjustable lever position -
so it is possible to compensate the increasing stroke.
> >
> >I would love to have it. Adding fluid is not my favourite job.
> >
> >Raimo OH-XRT 149 hrs
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "John & Paddy Wigney" <johnwigney@windstream.net>
> >To: "Europa-List" <europa-list@matronics.com>
> >Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:48 PM
> >Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder?
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Dear Europaphiles,
> >>
> >> There has been quite a lot of discussion lately regarding problems on
> >> tri-gear brakes. I now have a question on monowheel brakes.
> >>
> >> The problem I have is that as the brake pads wear, the stroke on the
> >> handle increases and the only way to fix this is to add fluid to the
> >> cylinder since there is no external reservoir. This procedure is a bit
> >> clumsy and fluid also has to be removed when new pads are fitted
> >>
> >> Has anyone had success with fitting a different system with a reservoir
> >> which avoids this problem? Any suggestions or comments would be welcome.
> >>
> >> Cheers, John
> >>
> >> N262WF, mono XS, 912S
> >> Mooresville, North Carolina
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel master cylinder? |
Bob,
that (temperature) is probably a significant factor in this game.
On Tuesday temp was around 10C and I had brakes but on Wednesday temp was 0C and
brakes were almost gone. An external reservoir should compensate this temperature
effect.
Or should we have a temperature controlled heating system in our brakes...
adding more heat would compensate also worn brake pads! ;)
Raimo OH-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:02 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder?
>
> Raimo,
> Don't forget the fluid in the system will shrink with the falling
> temperatures in your climes, giving an accelerated impression of the brakes
> wearing. (likewise be prepared for the brakes binding when the temperatures
> get back high in the early summer although I've never heard of anyone
> suffering this problem.)
> Regards
> Bob Harrison Europa Trike G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
> Sent: 14 October 2009 20:17
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder?
>
>
> John,
>
> That is true. It was just today I was thinking the same problem.
> I filled the cylinder last spring and now after about 50 hrs flight time
> /100 landings my brakes are almost gone.
> As you well know the situation appears suddenly: day before everything OK
> but today I cannot keep it there during magneto check. Brake pads are almost
> new like.
>
> I mentioned this thing to one aircraft service man and he told there are
> several brake systems (with no reservoir) with screw adjustable lever
> position - so it is possible to compensate the increasing stroke.
>
> I would love to have it. Adding fluid is not my favourite job.
>
> Raimo OH-XRT 149 hrs
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John & Paddy Wigney" <johnwigney@windstream.net>
> To: "Europa-List" <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:48 PM
> Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder?
>
>
> <johnwigney@windstream.net>
> >
> > Dear Europaphiles,
> >
> > There has been quite a lot of discussion lately regarding problems on
> > tri-gear brakes. I now have a question on monowheel brakes.
> >
> > The problem I have is that as the brake pads wear, the stroke on the
> > handle increases and the only way to fix this is to add fluid to the
> > cylinder since there is no external reservoir. This procedure is a bit
> > clumsy and fluid also has to be removed when new pads are fitted
> >
> > Has anyone had success with fitting a different system with a reservoir
> > which avoids this problem? Any suggestions or comments would be welcome.
> >
> > Cheers, John
> >
> > N262WF, mono XS, 912S
> > Mooresville, North Carolina
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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FWIW, In addition to fixing the original design problem as per the
suggestiong below, I am planning on a simple stainless spring-clip on the
tailplane which catches the drive-plate as a fail-safe backup.
Cheers,
Pete
A239
On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 5:43 AM, Graham Singleton <
grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
> grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
> Fred Klein wrote:
>
>>
>> Fred
> imho John's solution is adding more engineering to fix a symptom. I would
> prefer removing the cause, which is relying on the adhesion of epoxy to
> stainless steel. Purely mechanical, no true bond. Better to make a glass
> tube properly laid up onto the foam core and the ribs, lined with a full
> length tube with lightening holes. Much more expensive in labour but hey, we
> can always pay ourselves a bit less that day ;-)
> The problem is the stainless inserts are not always circular and a bit of
> swarf from the drillings make them jamb. Trouble!
> Graham
>
>
Message 7
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Surely=2C the objective of mod 73 was to prevent the tailplanes from moving
outboard. There is no guarantee that this 'plaster' stuck onto stainless i
s going to last the life of the aircraft.
What is wrong with my simple fix of replacing the TP5 with a long TP5 reach
ing up to the TP6=2C ensuring that the TP6 cannot ever move inboard.
This also fixes another problem=2C namely the disbonding of the TP5s =2C wh
ich has happened to me on both tailplanes.
BTW=2C I have never noticed any tendency of the tailplanes migrating outboa
rd. Whenever I remove the tailplanes at the end of my season=2C the pip pin
s are still as free and easy as when they went in.
Karl
> Date: Thu=2C 15 Oct 2009 10:43:46 +0100
> From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73
>
ternet.com>
>
> Fred Klein wrote:
> >
> Fred
> imho John's solution is adding more engineering to fix a symptom. I
> would prefer removing the cause=2C which is relying on the adhesion of
> epoxy to stainless steel. Purely mechanical=2C no true bond. Better to
> make a glass tube properly laid up onto the foam core and the ribs=2C
> lined with a full length tube with lightening holes. Much more expensive
> in labour but hey=2C we can always pay ourselves a bit less that day =3B-
)
> The problem is the stainless inserts are not always circular and a bit
> of swarf from the drillings make them jamb. Trouble!
> Graham
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Help Please!! |
Thanks for all the advice everyone - I now have two wings again instead of one
big one!! Bud's advice about the putty knife (many thanks) plus a little heating
and lots of swearing and grunting seemed to do the trick!
Cheers Jon
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel master cylinder? |
Raimo,
I tried to add a reservoir to my brake master but there just wasn't enough room
between the top of the tunnel and the top of the brake master cylinder to get a
fitting and line. I had planned to modify the top of the tunnel to add room for
the necessary hardware. You would need a 90 degree that would match the
threads on the master cylinder fill hole with a male 37 degree AN style on the
other end of the fitting. A line to go from the fitting, through the firewall
to a
reservoir, probably hanging on the engine side of the firewall. I gave up when
I couldn't find a 90 degree fitting to match the threads of the master fill hole.
I'd sure be interested if there was someone out there who has added a
reservoir to their monowheel master cylinder.
Bob
On Thursday, October 15, 2009, at 06:12AM, "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>that (temperature) is probably a significant factor in this game.
>On Tuesday temp was around 10C and I had brakes but on Wednesday temp was 0C and
brakes were almost gone. An external reservoir should compensate this temperature
effect.
>
>Or should we have a temperature controlled heating system in our brakes...
>adding more heat would compensate also worn brake pads! ;)
>
>Raimo OH-XRT
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel master cylinder? |
Bob,
why did you plan to instal reservoir to the firewall?
What about a simple solution to instal it just straight to the fill hole just top
of the master cylinder AND and top of the tunnel? It is visible then but so
what? We need only a reservoir with one inch connection tube with those threads
male 37 degree AN style you mentioned. Do you think it looks awful there? It
is visible also in fine MCs also. A practical technic is also beautiful is not
it?
Raimo OH-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Borger" <rlborger@mac.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder?
>
> Raimo,
>
> I tried to add a reservoir to my brake master but there just wasn't enough room
> between the top of the tunnel and the top of the brake master cylinder to get
a
> fitting and line. I had planned to modify the top of the tunnel to add room
for
> the necessary hardware. You would need a 90 degree that would match the
> threads on the master cylinder fill hole with a male 37 degree AN style on the
> other end of the fitting. A line to go from the fitting, through the firewall
to a
> reservoir, probably hanging on the engine side of the firewall. I gave up when
> I couldn't find a 90 degree fitting to match the threads of the master fill
hole.
>
> I'd sure be interested if there was someone out there who has added a
> reservoir to their monowheel master cylinder.
>
> Bob
>
> On Thursday, October 15, 2009, at 06:12AM, "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
wrote:
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >that (temperature) is probably a significant factor in this game.
> >On Tuesday temp was around 10C and I had brakes but on Wednesday temp was 0C
and brakes were almost gone. An external reservoir should compensate this temperature
effect.
> >
> >Or should we have a temperature controlled heating system in our brakes...
> >adding more heat would compensate also worn brake pads! ;)
> >
> >Raimo OH-XRT
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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" What is wrong with my simple fix of replacing the TP5 with a long TP5
reaching up to the TP6, ensuring that the TP6 cannot ever move inboard.
This also fixes another problem, namely the disbonding of the TP5s , which
has happened to me on both tailplanes. "
Karl "
That is exactly what i did during the build. I sourced alloy tube with the
same ID as the TP5/6 tubes, made it about 100mm longer
than the torque tube, so it runs from the inner plywood where the drive
bushes are out past the central rib in the tailplane. It did require
a slight change in the build order, as i epoxied it into the foam before I
created the rib, this however would be hard to do on a completed
tailplane.
craig
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel master cylinder? |
Raimo,
I did not like having the reservoir sitting on the tunnel right there behind the
brake lever.
In part due to appearance. But, primarily, I could see it interfering with the
operation of
the brake.
You are right, properly located, it would not detract from the appearance of the
cockpit.
(very techie) AND, it would be quite visible for check and accessible for maintenance.
I have an ACS brake reservoir bottle. All I need is a decent place to put it and
a means
of plumbing it to the master cylinder.
Bob
On Thursday, October 15, 2009, at 07:08AM, "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>why did you plan to instal reservoir to the firewall?
>
>What about a simple solution to instal it just straight to the fill hole just
top of the master cylinder AND and top of the tunnel? It is visible then but so
what? We need only a reservoir with one inch connection tube with those threads
male 37 degree AN style you mentioned. Do you think it looks awful there?
It is visible also in fine MCs also. A practical technic is also beautiful is
not it?
>
>Raimo OH-XRT
Message 13
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Karl,
When taking the tailplanes on and off the friction produced by having 6 or 7 times
the contact are between the torque tubes and the TP bushes would be enormous
and add a significant weight penalty to an area with great lever arm IE CG
considerations.
Re the plaster stuck onto stainless. This is the significant improvement made by
the mod in that disbondment is now prohibited, by introduction of a physical
barrier to migration of the bush.? Previously it was only held in place by the
adhesion of stainless to structure in one linear direction.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com>
Sent: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 12:19
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73
?
Surely, the objective of mod 73 was to prevent the tailplanes from moving outboard.
There is no guarantee that this 'plaster' stuck onto stainless is going to
last the life of the aircraft.
What is wrong with my simple fix of replacing the TP5 with a long TP5 reaching
up to the TP6, ensuring that the TP6 cannot ever move inboard.
This also fixes another problem, namely the disbonding of the TP5s , which has
happened to me on both tailplanes.
BTW, I have never noticed any tendency of the tailplanes migrating outboard. Whenever
I remove the tailplanes at the end of my season, the pip pins are still
as free and easy as when they went in.
?
Karl
?
> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:43:46 +0100
> From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73
>
>
> Fred Klein wrote:
> >
> Fred
> imho John's solution is adding more engineering to fix a symptom. I
> would prefer removing the cause, which is relying on the adhesion of
> epoxy to stainless steel. Purely mechanical, no true bond. Better to
> make a glass tube properly laid up onto the foam core and the ribs,
> lined with a full length tube with lightening holes. Much more expensive
> in labour but hey, we can always pay ourselves a bit less that day ;-)
> The problem is the stainless inserts are not always circular and a bit
> of swarf from the drillings make them jamb. Trouble!
>=====================
>=================
>
>
>
Message 14
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Be aware that you will also need a none return valve fitted between the
reservoir and the cylinder, otherwise the reservoir will just be an
extension of the cylinder with no advantage.
Jim
>
> I have an ACS brake reservoir bottle. All I need is a decent place to
put
> it and a means
> of plumbing it to the master cylinder.
>
> Bob
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Message 15
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test
Message 16
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On Oct 15, 2009, at 1:15 AM, Robert C Harrison wrote:
> You probably weren't asking me about my opinion of the photo's of
> the fix
> which John Wigney published but here goes anyway.
Bob...au contraire...I welcome opinions from all sources...Fred
do not archive
Message 17
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Karl,
The problem is friction of the tight fit of the TPs. The longer the
bearing, the more force to get it on and off.
Making a tube of glass (using the method of wax paper or similar to keep
the glass from direct contact) where both edges of the TPs have a lip
which not only holds the bearing in shear, but in compression (via the
lip) also. This would be slightly less force required on installation
and removal, and as the tube passes into the stab, prevent a hard metal
to metal impact on the outer bearing possibly creating a shock
failure...
Of course I cringe in how some folks take their tail planes off and on.
No bearing would stay put the way some are handled. It is all in
balance and alignment as well as the oh so important patience.
As you have found, properly built and maintained tailplanes can last
forever. Congrats on a well built stab.
You obviously did a fine job.
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Karl Heindl<mailto:kheindl@msn.com>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:19 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73
Surely, the objective of mod 73 was to prevent the tailplanes from
moving outboard. There is no guarantee that this 'plaster' stuck onto
stainless is going to last the life of the aircraft.
What is wrong with my simple fix of replacing the TP5 with a long TP5
reaching up to the TP6, ensuring that the TP6 cannot ever move inboard.
This also fixes another problem, namely the disbonding of the TP5s ,
which has happened to me on both tailplanes.
BTW, I have never noticed any tendency of the tailplanes migrating
outboard. Whenever I remove the tailplanes at the end of my season, the
pip pins are still as free and easy as when they went in.
Karl
> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:43:46 +0100
> From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73
>
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
> Fred Klein wrote:
<fklein@orcasonline.com>
> >
> Fred
> imho John's solution is adding more engineering to fix a symptom. I
> would prefer removing the cause, which is relying on the adhesion of
> epoxy to stainless steel. Purely mechanical, no true bond. Better to
> make a glass tube properly laid up onto the foam core and the ribs,
> lined with a full length tube with lightening holes. Much more
expensive
> in labour but hey, we can always pay ourselves a bit less that day
;-)
> The problem is the stainless inserts are not always circular and a
bit
> of swarf from the drillings make them jamb. Trouble!
>=====================
>=================
>
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Europa-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 18
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Pete and Bud=2C
I don't agree with the friction theory. My tailplanes slide on and off with
ease. If anything=2C it is easier now=2C as there is no lignup problem wit
h the two separate tubes. The torque tube is always lightly greased for tha
t reason=2C but also to keep corrosion of the torque tube at bay.e
I don't think that weight is an issue here. I use an alu tube and the diffe
rence between that and the shorter steel tube is really minimal.
Actually=2C an increase in tail weight is beneficial for many Europas=2C wh
en you consider all the add-ons up front=2C like cs propeller=2C instrument
ation=2C autopilot=2C cabin heat=2C you name it=2C compared to the original
80hp mono=2C on which the cg calculations were based.
Karl
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73
From: pjeffers@talktalk.net
Karl=2C
When taking the tailplanes on and off the friction produced by having 6 or
7 times the contact are between the torque tubes and the TP bushes would be
enormous and add a significant weight penalty to an area with great lever
arm IE CG considerations.
Re the plaster stuck onto stainless. This is the significant improvement ma
de by the mod in that disbondment is now prohibited=2C by introduction of a
physical barrier to migration of the bush. Previously it was only held in
place by the adhesion of stainless to structure in one linear direction.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com>
Sent: Thu=2C 15 Oct 2009 12:19
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73
Surely=2C the objective of mod 73 was to prevent the tailplanes from moving
outboard. There is no guarantee that this 'plaster' stuck onto stainless i
s going to last the life of the aircraft.
What is wrong with my simple fix of replacing the TP5 with a long TP5 reach
ing up to the TP6=2C ensuring that the TP6 cannot ever move inboard.
This also fixes another problem=2C namely the disbonding of the TP5s =2C wh
ich has happened to me on both tailplanes.
BTW=2C I have never noticed any tendency of the tailplanes migrating outboa
rd. Whenever I remove the tailplanes at the end of my season=2C the pip pin
s are still as free and easy as when they went in.
Karl
> Date: Thu=2C 15 Oct 2009 10:43:46 +0100
> From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73
>
ternet.com>
>
> Fred Klein wrote:
> >
> Fred
> imho John's solution is adding more engineering to fix a symptom. I
> would prefer removing the cause=2C which is relying on the adhesion of
> epoxy to stainless steel. Purely mechanical=2C no true bond. Better to
> make a glass tube properly laid up onto the foam core and the ribs=2C
> lined with a full length tube with lightening holes. Much more expensive
> in labour but hey=2C we can always pay ourselves a bit less that day =3B-
)
> The problem is the stainless inserts are not always circular and a bit
> of swarf from the drillings make them jamb. Trouble!
>=====================
>=================
>
>
>
Message 19
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I see, you use aluminum tube. The aluminum tube is probably 1/8 larger
(outside) and at .049 thick gives you about 3-4 thousandths clearance
for a better slip fit. Hence our concern with friction, thinking you
were using the stainless tube.
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Karl Heindl<mailto:kheindl@msn.com>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:23 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73
Pete and Bud,
I don't agree with the friction theory. My tailplanes slide on and off
with ease. If anything, it is easier now, as there is no lignup problem
with the two separate tubes. The torque tube is always lightly greased
for that reason, but also to keep corrosion of the torque tube at bay.e
I don't think that weight is an issue here. I use an alu tube and the
difference between that and the shorter steel tube is really minimal.
Actually, an increase in tail weight is beneficial for many Europas,
when you consider all the add-ons up front, like cs propeller,
instrumentation, autopilot, cabin heat, you name it, compared to the
original 80hp mono, on which the cg calculations were based.
Karl
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:19:16 -0400
From: pjeffers@talktalk.net
Karl,
When taking the tailplanes on and off the friction produced by having
6 or 7 times the contact are between the torque tubes and the TP bushes
would be enormous and add a significant weight penalty to an area with
great lever arm IE CG considerations.
Re the plaster stuck onto stainless. This is the significant
improvement made by the mod in that disbondment is now prohibited, by
introduction of a physical barrier to migration of the bush. Previously
it was only held in place by the adhesion of stainless to structure in
one linear direction.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com>
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 12:19
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73
Surely, the objective of mod 73 was to prevent the tailplanes from
moving outboard. There is no guarantee that this 'plaster' stuck onto
stainless is going to last the life of the aircraft.
What is wrong with my simple fix of replacing the TP5 with a long TP5
reaching up to the TP6, ensuring that the TP6 cannot ever move inboard.
This also fixes another problem, namely the disbonding of the TP5s ,
which has happened to me on both tailplanes.
BTW, I have never noticed any tendency of the tailplanes migrating
outboard. Whenever I remove the tailplanes at the end of my season, the
pip pins are still as free and easy as when they went in.
Karl
> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:43:46 +0100
> From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com<>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com<>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73
>
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com<>>
>
> Fred Klein wrote:
<fklein@orcasonline.com<>>
> >
> Fred
> imho John's solution is adding more engineering to fix a symptom. I
> would prefer removing the cause, which is relying on the adhesion of
> epoxy to stainless steel. Purely mechanical, no true bond. Better to
> make a glass tube properly laid up onto the foam core and the ribs,
> lined with a full length tube with lightening holes. Much more
expensive
> in labour but hey, we can always pay ourselves a bit less that day
;-)
> The problem is the stainless inserts are not always circular and a
bit
> of swarf from the drillings make them jamb. Trouble!
>=====================
>=================
>
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Europa-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 20
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As far as getting bushings stuck, I modifiedour accelerated
tailplane kit which had the inner bushings debonding pretty much right
after we received them in 2003.
Mutilated the stabs from bottom and
installed a very very minor tapered CF tube. It was from a rowing skull
(garbage picked) and I selected the section that was just about the proper
size for outboard bushing, but lead in on the inner bushing was slight
over. This way you get the support needed with essential no more
friction.
When laying up, always first ply of BID is with
Redux/peelply. Redux sticks much more better to Stainless or any sort of
metal as a matter of fact, so I always use Redux for first ply over metal,
peelply then complete layup with Aeropoxy laminating resin.
Inner and
outer bushings were scored and scuffed very well, they ain't goin anywhere
with the glass layup on them and CF tube.
Using shoulder screws to
hold in place instead of pip pins. They have seals so no need to have
drain. Also a detent.
I still elongated the torque tube (also a
spar!) in event any slop ever developed no rotational force would be
applied to outer bushings.
This was long before mod 73:
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album220&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Since I was at it fit of our pins was very poor. Factory tried sending
oversized pins, then 10MM reamer and pins with still a poor fit.
Ireamed holes, then sized them by sending through progressive larger
pins (.0001 increments), then custom machined and hand lapped dogbone
shaped pins (dogbone so when sending interferance fit pins through
theydon't oversize first hole, dogbone isonly a few thousands
undersized) and used corrosion proofing paint as a lubricant on cold pins
when installing. Also used green loctite but fit was very good on pins:
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album224&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
And since I was working on aft section of aeroplane and thinking,
removed about 15% stress on drive pins. Added mass balance weights to lead
edge of stabilators whioch allowed removal ofmass balance weights
off mass balance arm. IfI am going to need aft weight anyway with
914 and airmaster XS, might as well make weight do a worthwhile
task.
Another note:
On the new style mass balance arm, there is
a thin locknut on the beefier lower fitting. When you tighten this locknut
it is essentially taking all the load! I didn't like that very much,
althoughI have never heard of any problems, I found an AN castelated
nut that had 3 times or more as many threads as the thin one
supplied,and fitted it instead while assembling with Locktite. Think
about it, for most part weight is putting a compression load on the
threads of thelower fitting (positive Gs anyway) and the threads are
under compression. Now you tighten this thin stop nut and you are now
pulling on threads that are now under tension. Guess what the only thing
keeping threads under tension is? The few threads of the thin nut. These
few threads are taking all the load.I have three times as many
threads with castelated nu compared to supplied thin nutt.
Ron
Parigoris
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel master cylinder? |
Bob,
next time I visit my plane I will make some location checks for the reservoir tank.
As you assume if located top of the tunnel it may prevent the erconomic use of
the brake lever (or not).
Anyway over the tunnel between the seats there is plenty of room for a tiny brake
fluid tank.
The hose between the tank and the brake lever cylinder could be a golden eye-catcher
itself...
If I decide to go for reservoir, could you please supply me all the fittings (a
means
> of plumbing)? Otherwise I have to consult with lathe man in this country.
With reservoirs our planes will be again enhanced to the next practical level.
Raimo OH-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Borger" <rlborger@mac.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder?
>
> Raimo,
>
> I did not like having the reservoir sitting on the tunnel right there behind
the brake lever.
> In part due to appearance. But, primarily, I could see it interfering with the
operation of
> the brake.
>
> You are right, properly located, it would not detract from the appearance of
the cockpit.
> (very techie) AND, it would be quite visible for check and accessible for maintenance.
>
> I have an ACS brake reservoir bottle. All I need is a decent place to put it
and a means
> of plumbing it to the master cylinder.
>
> Bob
>
>
> On Thursday, October 15, 2009, at 07:08AM, "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
wrote:
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >why did you plan to instal reservoir to the firewall?
> >
> >What about a simple solution to instal it just straight to the fill hole just
top of the master cylinder AND and top of the tunnel? It is visible then but
so what? We need only a reservoir with one inch connection tube with those threads
male 37 degree AN style you mentioned. Do you think it looks awful there?
It is visible also in fine MCs also. A practical technic is also beautiful is
not it?
> >
> >Raimo OH-XRT
>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel master cylinder? |
Raimo,
And I will dig up the reservoir I have to see what type of hardware will be necessary
to connect it to the filling opening of the brake master cylinder. I'm sure it
will need
a fitting to be added to the reservoir which will allow connection to a length
of hose.
Then there will be another fitting required which would connect to a hose and to
the
reservoir. I see the primary problem being the fitting connecting the hose to
the
master cylinder. The plug to the master cylinder has straight threads and seals
against an "O" ring. We would need a similar arrangement on any fitting.
Also, we must determine if the plug must be installed for the braking action to
work.
It seems that in my work with the brake that it is not necessary, but this must
be
confirmed. As a previous poster has indicated, it may be necessary for a check
valve to be installed in the line between the reservoir and master cylinder.
Bob
On Thursday, October 15, 2009, at 02:11PM, "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>next time I visit my plane I will make some location checks for the reservoir
tank.
>As you assume if located top of the tunnel it may prevent the erconomic use of
the brake lever (or not).
>Anyway over the tunnel between the seats there is plenty of room for a tiny brake
fluid tank.
>The hose between the tank and the brake lever cylinder could be a golden eye-catcher
itself...
>
>If I decide to go for reservoir, could you please supply me all the fittings (a
means
>> of plumbing)? Otherwise I have to consult with lathe man in this country.
>
>With reservoirs our planes will be again enhanced to the next practical level.
>
>Raimo OH-XRT
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bob Borger" <rlborger@mac.com>
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 3:18 PM
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder?
>
>
>>
>> Raimo,
>>
>> I did not like having the reservoir sitting on the tunnel right there behind
the brake lever.
>> In part due to appearance. But, primarily, I could see it interfering with
the operation of
>> the brake.
>>
>> You are right, properly located, it would not detract from the appearance of
the cockpit.
>> (very techie) AND, it would be quite visible for check and accessible for maintenance.
>>
>> I have an ACS brake reservoir bottle. All I need is a decent place to put it
and a means
>> of plumbing it to the master cylinder.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, October 15, 2009, at 07:08AM, "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
wrote:
>> >
>> >Bob,
>> >
>> >why did you plan to instal reservoir to the firewall?
>> >
>> >What about a simple solution to instal it just straight to the fill hole just
top of the master cylinder AND and top of the tunnel? It is visible then but
so what? We need only a reservoir with one inch connection tube with those threads
male 37 degree AN style you mentioned. Do you think it looks awful there?
It is visible also in fine MCs also. A practical technic is also beautiful
is not it?
>> >
>> >Raimo OH-XRT
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Brake cylinder |
Jim,
the reservoir in the cockpit is much easier to fill full and keep it
also full. If it is transparent you will easily notice the level and
fill again.
Anyway - you are right. No-return-valve makes it perfect. Just like in
our cars and mcs has been always...
The valve; is it an integral part of the fluid bottle who knows?
Raimo
From: Jim Naylor
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:39 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Brake cylinder
Be aware that you will also need a none return valve fitted between
the
reservoir and the cylinder, otherwise the reservoir will just be an
extension of the cylinder with no advantage.
Jim
>
> I have an ACS brake reservoir bottle. All I need is a decent place
to put
> it and a means
> of plumbing it to the master cylinder.
>
> Bob
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature database 4509 (20091015) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Shobdon Apologies |
Hi Steve, Bob and any others who tried to do Shobdon,
Humble apologies for my woeful weather assessment for today -I'll try
to do better next time.
All the best, Paddy
Paddy Clarke
Europa G-KIMM
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel master cylinder? |
Please don't throw loose articles at me from around your work shop's
But aren't the Mono Brake cylinders ( Trigear Toe Brakes ) A sealed unit and only
work when the top filling plug is installed?
If this is so, simple pluming a reservoir will not work as it will not take the
pressure when the lever is pulled.
A simple short tube screwed into the master cylinder, then the original plug screwed
onto the top to seal the unit. This will allow for extra fluid and allow
for the wear down of the pads.
I could be wrong!!!
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel master cylinder? |
Don't forget a 'non-return valve' has to be installed as well.
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street'
Fendalton,
Christchurch.
NEW ZEALAND
Ph. 64 3 3515166
Mob 021 0640221
Email ward.t@xtra.co.nz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Flying Farmer" <rpwheelwright@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder?
> <rpwheelwright@yahoo.co.uk>
>
> Please don't throw loose articles at me from around your work shop's
> But aren't the Mono Brake cylinders ( Trigear Toe Brakes ) A sealed unit
> and only work when the top filling plug is installed?
> If this is so, simple pluming a reservoir will not work as it will not
> take the pressure when the lever is pulled.
> A simple short tube screwed into the master cylinder, then the original
> plug screwed onto the top to seal the unit. This will allow for extra
> fluid and allow for the wear down of the pads.
>
> I could be wrong!!!
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
Message 27
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Karl Heindl wrote:
>
> Pete and Bud,
>
> I don't agree with the friction theory. My tailplanes slide on and off
> with ease. If anything, it is easier now, as there is no lignup
> problem with the two separate tubes. The torque tube is always lightly
> greased for that reason, but also to keep corrosion of the torque tube
> at bay.e
> I don't think that weight is an issue here. I use an alu tube and the
> difference between that and the shorter steel tube is really minimal.
> Actually, an increase in tail weight is beneficial for many Europas,
> when you consider all the add-ons up front, like cs propeller,
> instrumentation, autopilot, cabin heat, you name it, compared to the
> original 80hp mono, on which the cg calculations were based.
>
> Karl
Karl
the friction is usually caused by either ovality of one (or both) of the
tubes, or by drilling swarf jamming between the tubes.
Graham
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel master cylinder? |
Bob Borger wrote:
> Also, we must determine if the plug must be installed for the braking action
to work.
> It seems that in my work with the brake that it is not necessary, but this must
be
> confirmed. As a previous poster has indicated, it may be necessary for a check
> valve to be installed in the line between the reservoir and master cylinder.
>
> Bob
>
It will, and it was Jim Naylor wasn't it? Hi Jim say hello to Pam for me.
Graham
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel master cylinder? |
Fellow Europaphiles,
I have started a new album on my site: "Brake Reservoir Study." So
far, there are 4 pics of the ACS brake reservoir with some descriptive
text.
Next step will be to identify the following elements:
1. Fitting to screw into the bottom of the reservoir to attach a hose.
2. Hose
3. Fitting to screw into the fill-hole of the master cylinder to which
the other end of the hose will attach.
4. Some sort of check valve to go in the system somewhere to enable
the brake master to generate the pressure necessary to function rather
than just squirt brake fluid back into the reservoir.
Any ideas or suggestions are welcome!
Check six,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
Aircraft Flying!
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
Graham,
Yes, I believe it was Jim Naylor who made the first comment on the
necessity of a check valve in the system.
On Oct 15, 2009, at 19:45, Graham Singleton wrote:
> >
>
> Bob Borger wrote:
>> Also, we must determine if the plug must be installed for the
>> braking action to work.
>> It seems that in my work with the brake that it is not necessary,
>> but this must be confirmed. As a previous poster has indicated, it
>> may be necessary for a check valve to be installed in the line
>> between the reservoir and master cylinder.
>>
>> Bob
>>
> It will, and it was Jim Naylor wasn't it? Hi Jim say hello to Pam
> for me.
> Graham
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel master cylinder? |
Hi Graham,
Yes it was me crawling out of the woodwork!
Regards
Jim
>>
> It will, and it was Jim Naylor wasn't it? Hi Jim say hello to Pam for me.
> Graham
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 4512 (20091015) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
>
>
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4512 (20091015) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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Graham=2C
I fully understand=2C but one would check before installation that the tube
s slide easily over the torque tube.
I did have the swarf problem on one side early in the build because I did n
ot use a brand new drill bit. It was quite a job to fix that with a special
homemade abrasive tool.
I think there must be a simple way for new builders to drill the pip pin ho
les BEFORE installing a single tube.
Karl
> Date: Fri=2C 16 Oct 2009 01:39:27 +0100
> From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73
>
ternet.com>
>
> Karl Heindl wrote:
> >
> > Pete and Bud=2C
> >
> > I don't agree with the friction theory. My tailplanes slide on and off
> > with ease. If anything=2C it is easier now=2C as there is no lignup
> > problem with the two separate tubes. The torque tube is always lightly
> > greased for that reason=2C but also to keep corrosion of the torque tub
e
> > at bay.e
> > I don't think that weight is an issue here. I use an alu tube and the
> > difference between that and the shorter steel tube is really minimal.
> > Actually=2C an increase in tail weight is beneficial for many Europas
=2C
> > when you consider all the add-ons up front=2C like cs propeller=2C
> > instrumentation=2C autopilot=2C cabin heat=2C you name it=2C compared t
o the
> > original 80hp mono=2C on which the cg calculations were based.
> >
> > Karl
> Karl
> the friction is usually caused by either ovality of one (or both) of the
> tubes=2C or by drilling swarf jamming between the tubes.
> Graham
>
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| Subject: | Europa classic monowheel for sale |
Hi all,
We sale Europa classic monowheel Kit N098 550 hours flight very good
conditions.
See attached file
Contact me off for complete informations
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mau11@free.fr
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