---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 10/15/09: 32 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:24 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Robert C Harrison) 2. 02:41 AM - Re: DOTH Shobdon Thu. 15th (Robert C Harrison) 3. 02:44 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Graham Singleton) 4. 03:50 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Raimo Toivio) 5. 03:59 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Raimo Toivio) 6. 04:00 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Peter Zutrauen) 7. 04:24 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Karl Heindl) 8. 04:24 AM - Re: Help Please!! (JonSmith) 9. 04:33 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Bob Borger) 10. 04:54 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Raimo Toivio) 11. 04:55 AM - Re: Mod 73 (craig bastin) 12. 05:19 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Bob Borger) 13. 06:21 AM - Re: Mod 73 (pjeffers@talktalk.net) 14. 06:42 AM - Brake cylinder (Jim Naylor) 15. 06:42 AM - test (Peter Jeffers) 16. 08:23 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Fred Klein) 17. 08:41 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Bud Yerly) 18. 09:25 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Karl Heindl) 19. 10:23 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Bud Yerly) 20. 10:42 AM - Re: Mod 73 (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 21. 11:58 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Raimo Toivio) 22. 12:39 PM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Bob Borger) 23. 12:39 PM - Re: Brake cylinder (Raimo Toivio) 24. 12:58 PM - Shobdon Apologies (Paddy Clarke) 25. 01:23 PM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Flying Farmer) 26. 01:55 PM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Tim Ward) 27. 05:43 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Graham Singleton) 28. 05:52 PM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Graham Singleton) 29. 06:56 PM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Robert Borger) 30. 07:07 PM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? () 31. 07:10 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Karl Heindl) 32. 10:42 PM - Europa classic monowheel for sale (Michel AUVRAY) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:24:20 AM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 Hi! Fred You probably weren't asking me about my opinion of the photo's of the fix which John Wigney published but here goes anyway. I think it is an excellent fix with one note of caution which is that I don't like shaving down the flange of the drive plate. I would have thought it possible to make the lever bent in the right places to still do it's job as per the concept, without weakening the drive plate. Like it or not you now have my humble opinion! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: 15 October 2009 01:28 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 On Oct 14, 2009, at 4:18 PM, Graham Singleton wrote: >> As an accident investigator in a prior life, we all die a little >> when we loose a fellow aviator. It is our mission not to bury our >> loss by saying it can't happen to me, but to try to make the >> aircraft, procedures, or training better to save not just >> ourselves, but others who come after us so they don't have to >> experience our loss. Bud Yerly >> > Bud > I couldn't agree more > Graham Graham...I too quite agree w/ Bud's sentiments. In our common interest of making our aircraft better, would you venture an opinion on the tailplane "fix" shown in John Wigney's photos posted earlier today? Thanks, Fred A194 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:41:53 AM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: DOTH Shobdon Thu. 15th Paddy I worked my nuts off yesterday to attend the Doth today but the damn weather is really not doable at all and I'm probably one of the last to throw the towel in ! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paddy Clarke Sent: 12 October 2009 22:28 Subject: Europa-List: DOTH Shobdon Thu. 15th Hi Folks, The best weather this week seems to be Thursday again ( sorry Bryan! ). We have a voucher in Pilot for Shobdon, always a favourite, so I suggest there for a DOTH. Usual time, All the best, Paddy Paddy Clarke Europa G-KIMM ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:44:15 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 Fred Klein wrote: > Fred imho John's solution is adding more engineering to fix a symptom. I would prefer removing the cause, which is relying on the adhesion of epoxy to stainless steel. Purely mechanical, no true bond. Better to make a glass tube properly laid up onto the foam core and the ribs, lined with a full length tube with lightening holes. Much more expensive in labour but hey, we can always pay ourselves a bit less that day ;-) The problem is the stainless inserts are not always circular and a bit of swarf from the drillings make them jamb. Trouble! Graham ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:50:23 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? Bob, adding brake fluid is actually no problem. It takes let is say 30 minutes and I use vet syringe or just a bottle with hose. The point is: it is frustrating and ugly task to do regularly again and again. Cannot understand why there is a design without reservoir. Would be nice to find a solution where no more brake fluid games every 50 hrs or so. An idea: would it be possible to add an external aftermarket reservoir to the cylinders filling hole? Raimo OH.-XRT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Borger" Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:39 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? > > John & Raimo, > > You should be able to find a source for some small industrial syringes. > They are handy for adding/removing brake fluid to/from the master cylinder > without creating too much mess. > > I know that they are available from ACS, McMaster-Carr and Wicks. > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/comptoolsyringe.php > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/tapertipapplicator.php > http://www.mcmaster.com/#syringes/=425n9t > http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_detail.php/pid=7939~subid=10381/index.html > > I would imagine that there is an industrial supplier in your area where they > can be purchased. > > Bob Borger > > On Wednesday, October 14, 2009, at 02:16PM, "Raimo Toivio" wrote: > > > >John, > > > >That is true. It was just today I was thinking the same problem. > >I filled the cylinder last spring and now after about 50 hrs flight time /100 landings my brakes are almost gone. > >As you well know the situation appears suddenly: day before everything OK but today I cannot keep it there during magneto check. Brake pads are almost new like. > > > >I mentioned this thing to one aircraft service man and he told there are several brake systems (with no reservoir) with screw adjustable lever position - so it is possible to compensate the increasing stroke. > > > >I would love to have it. Adding fluid is not my favourite job. > > > >Raimo OH-XRT 149 hrs > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "John & Paddy Wigney" > >To: "Europa-List" > >Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:48 PM > >Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? > > > > > >> > >> Dear Europaphiles, > >> > >> There has been quite a lot of discussion lately regarding problems on > >> tri-gear brakes. I now have a question on monowheel brakes. > >> > >> The problem I have is that as the brake pads wear, the stroke on the > >> handle increases and the only way to fix this is to add fluid to the > >> cylinder since there is no external reservoir. This procedure is a bit > >> clumsy and fluid also has to be removed when new pads are fitted > >> > >> Has anyone had success with fitting a different system with a reservoir > >> which avoids this problem? Any suggestions or comments would be welcome. > >> > >> Cheers, John > >> > >> N262WF, mono XS, 912S > >> Mooresville, North Carolina > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:59:09 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? Bob, that (temperature) is probably a significant factor in this game. On Tuesday temp was around 10C and I had brakes but on Wednesday temp was 0C and brakes were almost gone. An external reservoir should compensate this temperature effect. Or should we have a temperature controlled heating system in our brakes... adding more heat would compensate also worn brake pads! ;) Raimo OH-XRT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert C Harrison" Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:02 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? > > Raimo, > Don't forget the fluid in the system will shrink with the falling > temperatures in your climes, giving an accelerated impression of the brakes > wearing. (likewise be prepared for the brakes binding when the temperatures > get back high in the early summer although I've never heard of anyone > suffering this problem.) > Regards > Bob Harrison Europa Trike G-PTAG > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio > Sent: 14 October 2009 20:17 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? > > > John, > > That is true. It was just today I was thinking the same problem. > I filled the cylinder last spring and now after about 50 hrs flight time > /100 landings my brakes are almost gone. > As you well know the situation appears suddenly: day before everything OK > but today I cannot keep it there during magneto check. Brake pads are almost > new like. > > I mentioned this thing to one aircraft service man and he told there are > several brake systems (with no reservoir) with screw adjustable lever > position - so it is possible to compensate the increasing stroke. > > I would love to have it. Adding fluid is not my favourite job. > > Raimo OH-XRT 149 hrs > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John & Paddy Wigney" > To: "Europa-List" > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:48 PM > Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? > > > > > > > Dear Europaphiles, > > > > There has been quite a lot of discussion lately regarding problems on > > tri-gear brakes. I now have a question on monowheel brakes. > > > > The problem I have is that as the brake pads wear, the stroke on the > > handle increases and the only way to fix this is to add fluid to the > > cylinder since there is no external reservoir. This procedure is a bit > > clumsy and fluid also has to be removed when new pads are fitted > > > > Has anyone had success with fitting a different system with a reservoir > > which avoids this problem? Any suggestions or comments would be welcome. > > > > Cheers, John > > > > N262WF, mono XS, 912S > > Mooresville, North Carolina > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:00:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 From: Peter Zutrauen FWIW, In addition to fixing the original design problem as per the suggestiong below, I am planning on a simple stainless spring-clip on the tailplane which catches the drive-plate as a fail-safe backup. Cheers, Pete A239 On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 5:43 AM, Graham Singleton < grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote: > grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> > > Fred Klein wrote: > >> >> Fred > imho John's solution is adding more engineering to fix a symptom. I would > prefer removing the cause, which is relying on the adhesion of epoxy to > stainless steel. Purely mechanical, no true bond. Better to make a glass > tube properly laid up onto the foam core and the ribs, lined with a full > length tube with lightening holes. Much more expensive in labour but hey, we > can always pay ourselves a bit less that day ;-) > The problem is the stainless inserts are not always circular and a bit of > swarf from the drillings make them jamb. Trouble! > Graham > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:45 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 Surely=2C the objective of mod 73 was to prevent the tailplanes from moving outboard. There is no guarantee that this 'plaster' stuck onto stainless i s going to last the life of the aircraft. What is wrong with my simple fix of replacing the TP5 with a long TP5 reach ing up to the TP6=2C ensuring that the TP6 cannot ever move inboard. This also fixes another problem=2C namely the disbonding of the TP5s =2C wh ich has happened to me on both tailplanes. BTW=2C I have never noticed any tendency of the tailplanes migrating outboa rd. Whenever I remove the tailplanes at the end of my season=2C the pip pin s are still as free and easy as when they went in. Karl > Date: Thu=2C 15 Oct 2009 10:43:46 +0100 > From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 > ternet.com> > > Fred Klein wrote: > > > Fred > imho John's solution is adding more engineering to fix a symptom. I > would prefer removing the cause=2C which is relying on the adhesion of > epoxy to stainless steel. Purely mechanical=2C no true bond. Better to > make a glass tube properly laid up onto the foam core and the ribs=2C > lined with a full length tube with lightening holes. Much more expensive > in labour but hey=2C we can always pay ourselves a bit less that day =3B- ) > The problem is the stainless inserts are not always circular and a bit > of swarf from the drillings make them jamb. Trouble! > Graham > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:55 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Help Please!! From: "JonSmith" Thanks for all the advice everyone - I now have two wings again instead of one big one!! Bud's advice about the putty knife (many thanks) plus a little heating and lots of swearing and grunting seemed to do the trick! Cheers Jon Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:43 AM PST US From: Bob Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? Raimo, I tried to add a reservoir to my brake master but there just wasn't enough room between the top of the tunnel and the top of the brake master cylinder to get a fitting and line. I had planned to modify the top of the tunnel to add room for the necessary hardware. You would need a 90 degree that would match the threads on the master cylinder fill hole with a male 37 degree AN style on the other end of the fitting. A line to go from the fitting, through the firewall to a reservoir, probably hanging on the engine side of the firewall. I gave up when I couldn't find a 90 degree fitting to match the threads of the master fill hole. I'd sure be interested if there was someone out there who has added a reservoir to their monowheel master cylinder. Bob On Thursday, October 15, 2009, at 06:12AM, "Raimo Toivio" wrote: > >Bob, > >that (temperature) is probably a significant factor in this game. >On Tuesday temp was around 10C and I had brakes but on Wednesday temp was 0C and brakes were almost gone. An external reservoir should compensate this temperature effect. > >Or should we have a temperature controlled heating system in our brakes... >adding more heat would compensate also worn brake pads! ;) > >Raimo OH-XRT ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:54 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? Bob, why did you plan to instal reservoir to the firewall? What about a simple solution to instal it just straight to the fill hole just top of the master cylinder AND and top of the tunnel? It is visible then but so what? We need only a reservoir with one inch connection tube with those threads male 37 degree AN style you mentioned. Do you think it looks awful there? It is visible also in fine MCs also. A practical technic is also beautiful is not it? Raimo OH-XRT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Borger" Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:29 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? > > Raimo, > > I tried to add a reservoir to my brake master but there just wasn't enough room > between the top of the tunnel and the top of the brake master cylinder to get a > fitting and line. I had planned to modify the top of the tunnel to add room for > the necessary hardware. You would need a 90 degree that would match the > threads on the master cylinder fill hole with a male 37 degree AN style on the > other end of the fitting. A line to go from the fitting, through the firewall to a > reservoir, probably hanging on the engine side of the firewall. I gave up when > I couldn't find a 90 degree fitting to match the threads of the master fill hole. > > I'd sure be interested if there was someone out there who has added a > reservoir to their monowheel master cylinder. > > Bob > > On Thursday, October 15, 2009, at 06:12AM, "Raimo Toivio" wrote: > > > >Bob, > > > >that (temperature) is probably a significant factor in this game. > >On Tuesday temp was around 10C and I had brakes but on Wednesday temp was 0C and brakes were almost gone. An external reservoir should compensate this temperature effect. > > > >Or should we have a temperature controlled heating system in our brakes... > >adding more heat would compensate also worn brake pads! ;) > > > >Raimo OH-XRT > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:55:00 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 " What is wrong with my simple fix of replacing the TP5 with a long TP5 reaching up to the TP6, ensuring that the TP6 cannot ever move inboard. This also fixes another problem, namely the disbonding of the TP5s , which has happened to me on both tailplanes. " Karl " That is exactly what i did during the build. I sourced alloy tube with the same ID as the TP5/6 tubes, made it about 100mm longer than the torque tube, so it runs from the inner plywood where the drive bushes are out past the central rib in the tailplane. It did require a slight change in the build order, as i epoxied it into the foam before I created the rib, this however would be hard to do on a completed tailplane. craig ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:12 AM PST US From: Bob Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? Raimo, I did not like having the reservoir sitting on the tunnel right there behind the brake lever. In part due to appearance. But, primarily, I could see it interfering with the operation of the brake. You are right, properly located, it would not detract from the appearance of the cockpit. (very techie) AND, it would be quite visible for check and accessible for maintenance. I have an ACS brake reservoir bottle. All I need is a decent place to put it and a means of plumbing it to the master cylinder. Bob On Thursday, October 15, 2009, at 07:08AM, "Raimo Toivio" wrote: > >Bob, > >why did you plan to instal reservoir to the firewall? > >What about a simple solution to instal it just straight to the fill hole just top of the master cylinder AND and top of the tunnel? It is visible then but so what? We need only a reservoir with one inch connection tube with those threads male 37 degree AN style you mentioned. Do you think it looks awful there? It is visible also in fine MCs also. A practical technic is also beautiful is not it? > >Raimo OH-XRT ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:27 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 From: pjeffers@talktalk.net Karl, When taking the tailplanes on and off the friction produced by having 6 or 7 times the contact are between the torque tubes and the TP bushes would be enormous and add a significant weight penalty to an area with great lever arm IE CG considerations. Re the plaster stuck onto stainless. This is the significant improvement made by the mod in that disbondment is now prohibited, by introduction of a physical barrier to migration of the bush.? Previously it was only held in place by the adhesion of stainless to structure in one linear direction. Pete -----Original Message----- From: Karl Heindl Sent: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 12:19 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 ? Surely, the objective of mod 73 was to prevent the tailplanes from moving outboard. There is no guarantee that this 'plaster' stuck onto stainless is going to last the life of the aircraft. What is wrong with my simple fix of replacing the TP5 with a long TP5 reaching up to the TP6, ensuring that the TP6 cannot ever move inboard. This also fixes another problem, namely the disbonding of the TP5s , which has happened to me on both tailplanes. BTW, I have never noticed any tendency of the tailplanes migrating outboard. Whenever I remove the tailplanes at the end of my season, the pip pins are still as free and easy as when they went in. ? Karl ? > Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:43:46 +0100 > From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 > > > Fred Klein wrote: > > > Fred > imho John's solution is adding more engineering to fix a symptom. I > would prefer removing the cause, which is relying on the adhesion of > epoxy to stainless steel. Purely mechanical, no true bond. Better to > make a glass tube properly laid up onto the foam core and the ribs, > lined with a full length tube with lightening holes. Much more expensive > in labour but hey, we can always pay ourselves a bit less that day ;-) > The problem is the stainless inserts are not always circular and a bit > of swarf from the drillings make them jamb. Trouble! >===================== >================= > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:10 AM PST US From: "Jim Naylor" Subject: Europa-List: Brake cylinder Be aware that you will also need a none return valve fitted between the reservoir and the cylinder, otherwise the reservoir will just be an extension of the cylinder with no advantage. Jim > > I have an ACS brake reservoir bottle. All I need is a decent place to put > it and a means > of plumbing it to the master cylinder. > > Bob __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signatur e database 4509 (20091015) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:10 AM PST US From: "Peter Jeffers" Subject: Europa-List: test test ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:03 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 On Oct 15, 2009, at 1:15 AM, Robert C Harrison wrote: > You probably weren't asking me about my opinion of the photo's of > the fix > which John Wigney published but here goes anyway. Bob...au contraire...I welcome opinions from all sources...Fred do not archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:35 AM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 Karl, The problem is friction of the tight fit of the TPs. The longer the bearing, the more force to get it on and off. Making a tube of glass (using the method of wax paper or similar to keep the glass from direct contact) where both edges of the TPs have a lip which not only holds the bearing in shear, but in compression (via the lip) also. This would be slightly less force required on installation and removal, and as the tube passes into the stab, prevent a hard metal to metal impact on the outer bearing possibly creating a shock failure... Of course I cringe in how some folks take their tail planes off and on. No bearing would stay put the way some are handled. It is all in balance and alignment as well as the oh so important patience. As you have found, properly built and maintained tailplanes can last forever. Congrats on a well built stab. You obviously did a fine job. Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Karl Heindl To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:19 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 Surely, the objective of mod 73 was to prevent the tailplanes from moving outboard. There is no guarantee that this 'plaster' stuck onto stainless is going to last the life of the aircraft. What is wrong with my simple fix of replacing the TP5 with a long TP5 reaching up to the TP6, ensuring that the TP6 cannot ever move inboard. This also fixes another problem, namely the disbonding of the TP5s , which has happened to me on both tailplanes. BTW, I have never noticed any tendency of the tailplanes migrating outboard. Whenever I remove the tailplanes at the end of my season, the pip pins are still as free and easy as when they went in. Karl > Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:43:46 +0100 > From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 > > > Fred Klein wrote: > > > Fred > imho John's solution is adding more engineering to fix a symptom. I > would prefer removing the cause, which is relying on the adhesion of > epoxy to stainless steel. Purely mechanical, no true bond. Better to > make a glass tube properly laid up onto the foam core and the ribs, > lined with a full length tube with lightening holes. Much more expensive > in labour but hey, we can always pay ourselves a bit less that day ;-) > The problem is the stainless inserts are not always circular and a bit > of swarf from the drillings make them jamb. Trouble! >===================== >================= > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:00 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 Pete and Bud=2C I don't agree with the friction theory. My tailplanes slide on and off with ease. If anything=2C it is easier now=2C as there is no lignup problem wit h the two separate tubes. The torque tube is always lightly greased for tha t reason=2C but also to keep corrosion of the torque tube at bay.e I don't think that weight is an issue here. I use an alu tube and the diffe rence between that and the shorter steel tube is really minimal. Actually=2C an increase in tail weight is beneficial for many Europas=2C wh en you consider all the add-ons up front=2C like cs propeller=2C instrument ation=2C autopilot=2C cabin heat=2C you name it=2C compared to the original 80hp mono=2C on which the cg calculations were based. Karl Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 From: pjeffers@talktalk.net Karl=2C When taking the tailplanes on and off the friction produced by having 6 or 7 times the contact are between the torque tubes and the TP bushes would be enormous and add a significant weight penalty to an area with great lever arm IE CG considerations. Re the plaster stuck onto stainless. This is the significant improvement ma de by the mod in that disbondment is now prohibited=2C by introduction of a physical barrier to migration of the bush. Previously it was only held in place by the adhesion of stainless to structure in one linear direction. Pete -----Original Message----- From: Karl Heindl Sent: Thu=2C 15 Oct 2009 12:19 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 Surely=2C the objective of mod 73 was to prevent the tailplanes from moving outboard. There is no guarantee that this 'plaster' stuck onto stainless i s going to last the life of the aircraft. What is wrong with my simple fix of replacing the TP5 with a long TP5 reach ing up to the TP6=2C ensuring that the TP6 cannot ever move inboard. This also fixes another problem=2C namely the disbonding of the TP5s =2C wh ich has happened to me on both tailplanes. BTW=2C I have never noticed any tendency of the tailplanes migrating outboa rd. Whenever I remove the tailplanes at the end of my season=2C the pip pin s are still as free and easy as when they went in. Karl > Date: Thu=2C 15 Oct 2009 10:43:46 +0100 > From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 > ternet.com> > > Fred Klein wrote: > > > Fred > imho John's solution is adding more engineering to fix a symptom. I > would prefer removing the cause=2C which is relying on the adhesion of > epoxy to stainless steel. Purely mechanical=2C no true bond. Better to > make a glass tube properly laid up onto the foam core and the ribs=2C > lined with a full length tube with lightening holes. Much more expensive > in labour but hey=2C we can always pay ourselves a bit less that day =3B- ) > The problem is the stainless inserts are not always circular and a bit > of swarf from the drillings make them jamb. Trouble! >===================== >================= > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:41 AM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 I see, you use aluminum tube. The aluminum tube is probably 1/8 larger (outside) and at .049 thick gives you about 3-4 thousandths clearance for a better slip fit. Hence our concern with friction, thinking you were using the stainless tube. Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Karl Heindl To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:23 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 Pete and Bud, I don't agree with the friction theory. My tailplanes slide on and off with ease. If anything, it is easier now, as there is no lignup problem with the two separate tubes. The torque tube is always lightly greased for that reason, but also to keep corrosion of the torque tube at bay.e I don't think that weight is an issue here. I use an alu tube and the difference between that and the shorter steel tube is really minimal. Actually, an increase in tail weight is beneficial for many Europas, when you consider all the add-ons up front, like cs propeller, instrumentation, autopilot, cabin heat, you name it, compared to the original 80hp mono, on which the cg calculations were based. Karl ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:19:16 -0400 From: pjeffers@talktalk.net Karl, When taking the tailplanes on and off the friction produced by having 6 or 7 times the contact are between the torque tubes and the TP bushes would be enormous and add a significant weight penalty to an area with great lever arm IE CG considerations. Re the plaster stuck onto stainless. This is the significant improvement made by the mod in that disbondment is now prohibited, by introduction of a physical barrier to migration of the bush. Previously it was only held in place by the adhesion of stainless to structure in one linear direction. Pete -----Original Message----- From: Karl Heindl To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 12:19 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 Surely, the objective of mod 73 was to prevent the tailplanes from moving outboard. There is no guarantee that this 'plaster' stuck onto stainless is going to last the life of the aircraft. What is wrong with my simple fix of replacing the TP5 with a long TP5 reaching up to the TP6, ensuring that the TP6 cannot ever move inboard. This also fixes another problem, namely the disbonding of the TP5s , which has happened to me on both tailplanes. BTW, I have never noticed any tendency of the tailplanes migrating outboard. Whenever I remove the tailplanes at the end of my season, the pip pins are still as free and easy as when they went in. Karl > Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:43:46 +0100 > From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com<> > To: europa-list@matronics.com<> > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 > > > > Fred Klein wrote: > > > > Fred > imho John's solution is adding more engineering to fix a symptom. I > would prefer removing the cause, which is relying on the adhesion of > epoxy to stainless steel. Purely mechanical, no true bond. Better to > make a glass tube properly laid up onto the foam core and the ribs, > lined with a full length tube with lightening holes. Much more expensive > in labour but hey, we can always pay ourselves a bit less that day ;-) > The problem is the stainless inserts are not always circular and a bit > of swarf from the drillings make them jamb. Trouble! >===================== >================= > > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ronics.com ww.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:37 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us As far as getting bushings stuck, I modifiedour accelerated tailplane kit which had the inner bushings debonding pretty much right after we received them in 2003. Mutilated the stabs from bottom and installed a very very minor tapered CF tube. It was from a rowing skull (garbage picked) and I selected the section that was just about the proper size for outboard bushing, but lead in on the inner bushing was slight over. This way you get the support needed with essential no more friction. When laying up, always first ply of BID is with Redux/peelply. Redux sticks much more better to Stainless or any sort of metal as a matter of fact, so I always use Redux for first ply over metal, peelply then complete layup with Aeropoxy laminating resin. Inner and outer bushings were scored and scuffed very well, they ain't goin anywhere with the glass layup on them and CF tube. Using shoulder screws to hold in place instead of pip pins. They have seals so no need to have drain. Also a detent. I still elongated the torque tube (also a spar!) in event any slop ever developed no rotational force would be applied to outer bushings. This was long before mod 73: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album220&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php Since I was at it fit of our pins was very poor. Factory tried sending oversized pins, then 10MM reamer and pins with still a poor fit. Ireamed holes, then sized them by sending through progressive larger pins (.0001 increments), then custom machined and hand lapped dogbone shaped pins (dogbone so when sending interferance fit pins through theydon't oversize first hole, dogbone isonly a few thousands undersized) and used corrosion proofing paint as a lubricant on cold pins when installing. Also used green loctite but fit was very good on pins: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album224&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php And since I was working on aft section of aeroplane and thinking, removed about 15% stress on drive pins. Added mass balance weights to lead edge of stabilators whioch allowed removal ofmass balance weights off mass balance arm. IfI am going to need aft weight anyway with 914 and airmaster XS, might as well make weight do a worthwhile task. Another note: On the new style mass balance arm, there is a thin locknut on the beefier lower fitting. When you tighten this locknut it is essentially taking all the load! I didn't like that very much, althoughI have never heard of any problems, I found an AN castelated nut that had 3 times or more as many threads as the thin one supplied,and fitted it instead while assembling with Locktite. Think about it, for most part weight is putting a compression load on the threads of thelower fitting (positive Gs anyway) and the threads are under compression. Now you tighten this thin stop nut and you are now pulling on threads that are now under tension. Guess what the only thing keeping threads under tension is? The few threads of the thin nut. These few threads are taking all the load.I have three times as many threads with castelated nu compared to supplied thin nutt. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:58:47 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? Bob, next time I visit my plane I will make some location checks for the reservoir tank. As you assume if located top of the tunnel it may prevent the erconomic use of the brake lever (or not). Anyway over the tunnel between the seats there is plenty of room for a tiny brake fluid tank. The hose between the tank and the brake lever cylinder could be a golden eye-catcher itself... If I decide to go for reservoir, could you please supply me all the fittings (a means > of plumbing)? Otherwise I have to consult with lathe man in this country. With reservoirs our planes will be again enhanced to the next practical level. Raimo OH-XRT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Borger" Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 3:18 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? > > Raimo, > > I did not like having the reservoir sitting on the tunnel right there behind the brake lever. > In part due to appearance. But, primarily, I could see it interfering with the operation of > the brake. > > You are right, properly located, it would not detract from the appearance of the cockpit. > (very techie) AND, it would be quite visible for check and accessible for maintenance. > > I have an ACS brake reservoir bottle. All I need is a decent place to put it and a means > of plumbing it to the master cylinder. > > Bob > > > On Thursday, October 15, 2009, at 07:08AM, "Raimo Toivio" wrote: > > > >Bob, > > > >why did you plan to instal reservoir to the firewall? > > > >What about a simple solution to instal it just straight to the fill hole just top of the master cylinder AND and top of the tunnel? It is visible then but so what? We need only a reservoir with one inch connection tube with those threads male 37 degree AN style you mentioned. Do you think it looks awful there? It is visible also in fine MCs also. A practical technic is also beautiful is not it? > > > >Raimo OH-XRT > > > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:04 PM PST US From: Bob Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? Raimo, And I will dig up the reservoir I have to see what type of hardware will be necessary to connect it to the filling opening of the brake master cylinder. I'm sure it will need a fitting to be added to the reservoir which will allow connection to a length of hose. Then there will be another fitting required which would connect to a hose and to the reservoir. I see the primary problem being the fitting connecting the hose to the master cylinder. The plug to the master cylinder has straight threads and seals against an "O" ring. We would need a similar arrangement on any fitting. Also, we must determine if the plug must be installed for the braking action to work. It seems that in my work with the brake that it is not necessary, but this must be confirmed. As a previous poster has indicated, it may be necessary for a check valve to be installed in the line between the reservoir and master cylinder. Bob On Thursday, October 15, 2009, at 02:11PM, "Raimo Toivio" wrote: > >Bob, > >next time I visit my plane I will make some location checks for the reservoir tank. >As you assume if located top of the tunnel it may prevent the erconomic use of the brake lever (or not). >Anyway over the tunnel between the seats there is plenty of room for a tiny brake fluid tank. >The hose between the tank and the brake lever cylinder could be a golden eye-catcher itself... > >If I decide to go for reservoir, could you please supply me all the fittings (a means >> of plumbing)? Otherwise I have to consult with lathe man in this country. > >With reservoirs our planes will be again enhanced to the next practical level. > >Raimo OH-XRT > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bob Borger" >To: >Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 3:18 PM >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? > > >> >> Raimo, >> >> I did not like having the reservoir sitting on the tunnel right there behind the brake lever. >> In part due to appearance. But, primarily, I could see it interfering with the operation of >> the brake. >> >> You are right, properly located, it would not detract from the appearance of the cockpit. >> (very techie) AND, it would be quite visible for check and accessible for maintenance. >> >> I have an ACS brake reservoir bottle. All I need is a decent place to put it and a means >> of plumbing it to the master cylinder. >> >> Bob >> >> >> On Thursday, October 15, 2009, at 07:08AM, "Raimo Toivio" wrote: >> > >> >Bob, >> > >> >why did you plan to instal reservoir to the firewall? >> > >> >What about a simple solution to instal it just straight to the fill hole just top of the master cylinder AND and top of the tunnel? It is visible then but so what? We need only a reservoir with one inch connection tube with those threads male 37 degree AN style you mentioned. Do you think it looks awful there? It is visible also in fine MCs also. A practical technic is also beautiful is not it? >> > >> >Raimo OH-XRT >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:04 PM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Brake cylinder Jim, the reservoir in the cockpit is much easier to fill full and keep it also full. If it is transparent you will easily notice the level and fill again. Anyway - you are right. No-return-valve makes it perfect. Just like in our cars and mcs has been always... The valve; is it an integral part of the fluid bottle who knows? Raimo From: Jim Naylor To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:39 PM Subject: Europa-List: Brake cylinder Be aware that you will also need a none return valve fitted between the reservoir and the cylinder, otherwise the reservoir will just be an extension of the cylinder with no advantage. Jim > > I have an ACS brake reservoir bottle. All I need is a decent place to put > it and a means > of plumbing it to the master cylinder. > > Bob __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4509 (20091015) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:08 PM PST US From: Paddy Clarke Subject: Europa-List: Shobdon Apologies Hi Steve, Bob and any others who tried to do Shobdon, Humble apologies for my woeful weather assessment for today -I'll try to do better next time. All the best, Paddy Paddy Clarke Europa G-KIMM ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? From: "Flying Farmer" Please don't throw loose articles at me from around your work shop's But aren't the Mono Brake cylinders ( Trigear Toe Brakes ) A sealed unit and only work when the top filling plug is installed? If this is so, simple pluming a reservoir will not work as it will not take the pressure when the lever is pulled. A simple short tube screwed into the master cylinder, then the original plug screwed onto the top to seal the unit. This will allow for extra fluid and allow for the wear down of the pads. I could be wrong!!! Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:14 PM PST US From: "Tim Ward" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? Don't forget a 'non-return valve' has to be installed as well. Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street' Fendalton, Christchurch. NEW ZEALAND Ph. 64 3 3515166 Mob 021 0640221 Email ward.t@xtra.co.nz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Flying Farmer" Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:27 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? > > > Please don't throw loose articles at me from around your work shop's > But aren't the Mono Brake cylinders ( Trigear Toe Brakes ) A sealed unit > and only work when the top filling plug is installed? > If this is so, simple pluming a reservoir will not work as it will not > take the pressure when the lever is pulled. > A simple short tube screwed into the master cylinder, then the original > plug screwed onto the top to seal the unit. This will allow for extra > fluid and allow for the wear down of the pads. > > I could be wrong!!! > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:42 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 Karl Heindl wrote: > > Pete and Bud, > > I don't agree with the friction theory. My tailplanes slide on and off > with ease. If anything, it is easier now, as there is no lignup > problem with the two separate tubes. The torque tube is always lightly > greased for that reason, but also to keep corrosion of the torque tube > at bay.e > I don't think that weight is an issue here. I use an alu tube and the > difference between that and the shorter steel tube is really minimal. > Actually, an increase in tail weight is beneficial for many Europas, > when you consider all the add-ons up front, like cs propeller, > instrumentation, autopilot, cabin heat, you name it, compared to the > original 80hp mono, on which the cg calculations were based. > > Karl Karl the friction is usually caused by either ovality of one (or both) of the tubes, or by drilling swarf jamming between the tubes. Graham ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:38 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? Bob Borger wrote: > Also, we must determine if the plug must be installed for the braking action to work. > It seems that in my work with the brake that it is not necessary, but this must be > confirmed. As a previous poster has indicated, it may be necessary for a check > valve to be installed in the line between the reservoir and master cylinder. > > Bob > It will, and it was Jim Naylor wasn't it? Hi Jim say hello to Pam for me. Graham ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:35 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? From: Robert Borger Fellow Europaphiles, I have started a new album on my site: "Brake Reservoir Study." So far, there are 4 pics of the ACS brake reservoir with some descriptive text. Next step will be to identify the following elements: 1. Fitting to screw into the bottom of the reservoir to attach a hose. 2. Hose 3. Fitting to screw into the fill-hole of the master cylinder to which the other end of the hose will attach. 4. Some sort of check valve to go in the system somewhere to enable the brake master to generate the pressure necessary to function rather than just squirt brake fluid back into the reservoir. Any ideas or suggestions are welcome! Check six, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL Aircraft Flying! 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 Graham, Yes, I believe it was Jim Naylor who made the first comment on the necessity of a check valve in the system. On Oct 15, 2009, at 19:45, Graham Singleton wrote: > > > > Bob Borger wrote: >> Also, we must determine if the plug must be installed for the >> braking action to work. >> It seems that in my work with the brake that it is not necessary, >> but this must be confirmed. As a previous poster has indicated, it >> may be necessary for a check valve to be installed in the line >> between the reservoir and master cylinder. >> >> Bob >> > It will, and it was Jim Naylor wasn't it? Hi Jim say hello to Pam > for me. > Graham ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:30 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? Hi Graham, Yes it was me crawling out of the woodwork! Regards Jim >> > It will, and it was Jim Naylor wasn't it? Hi Jim say hello to Pam for me. > Graham > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4512 (20091015) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4512 (20091015) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:10:09 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 Graham=2C I fully understand=2C but one would check before installation that the tube s slide easily over the torque tube. I did have the swarf problem on one side early in the build because I did n ot use a brand new drill bit. It was quite a job to fix that with a special homemade abrasive tool. I think there must be a simple way for new builders to drill the pip pin ho les BEFORE installing a single tube. Karl > Date: Fri=2C 16 Oct 2009 01:39:27 +0100 > From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 > ternet.com> > > Karl Heindl wrote: > > > > Pete and Bud=2C > > > > I don't agree with the friction theory. My tailplanes slide on and off > > with ease. If anything=2C it is easier now=2C as there is no lignup > > problem with the two separate tubes. The torque tube is always lightly > > greased for that reason=2C but also to keep corrosion of the torque tub e > > at bay.e > > I don't think that weight is an issue here. I use an alu tube and the > > difference between that and the shorter steel tube is really minimal. > > Actually=2C an increase in tail weight is beneficial for many Europas =2C > > when you consider all the add-ons up front=2C like cs propeller=2C > > instrumentation=2C autopilot=2C cabin heat=2C you name it=2C compared t o the > > original 80hp mono=2C on which the cg calculations were based. > > > > Karl > Karl > the friction is usually caused by either ovality of one (or both) of the > tubes=2C or by drilling swarf jamming between the tubes. > Graham > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:26 PM PST US From: Michel AUVRAY Subject: Europa-List: Europa classic monowheel for sale Hi all, We sale Europa classic monowheel Kit N098 550 hours flight very good conditions. See attached file Contact me off for complete informations -- --|-- --------(*)-------- Michel AUVRAY mau11@free.fr ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.