---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/16/09: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:24 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Graham Singleton) 2. 03:11 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Raimo Toivio) 3. 05:56 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Graham Singleton) 4. 05:56 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Bob Borger) 5. 06:42 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Bob Borger) 6. 07:13 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? () 7. 09:44 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (Bud Yerly) 8. 10:04 AM - Re: Monowheel master cylinder? (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:24:07 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 Karl Heindl wrote: > > > Graham, > > I fully understand, but one would check before installation that the > tubes slide easily over the torque tube. > I did have the swarf problem on one side early in the build because I > did not use a brand new drill bit. It was quite a job to fix that with > a special homemade abrasive tool. > I think there must be a simple way for new builders to drill the pip > pin holes BEFORE installing a single tube. > > Karl > Karl if you have any good ideas I'm sure the factory would like to know, they are working to smooth out the wrinkles in the old design. OTH maybe they already have an idea about this, David? Graham ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:11:46 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? Tim, I think valve is not necessary if you keep the reservoir always full-filled. And it is easy to keep it so (much easier like cylinder). Adding no-return valve is a 2nd level to enhance brake system.(I assume no-return-valve is like diode for electricitet). Raimo OH-XRT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Ward" Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:44 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? > > Don't forget a 'non-return valve' has to be installed as well. > Tim Ward > 12 Waiwetu Street' > Fendalton, > Christchurch. > NEW ZEALAND > > Ph. 64 3 3515166 > Mob 021 0640221 > Email ward.t@xtra.co.nz > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Flying Farmer" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:27 AM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? > > > > > > > > Please don't throw loose articles at me from around your work shop's > > But aren't the Mono Brake cylinders ( Trigear Toe Brakes ) A sealed unit > > and only work when the top filling plug is installed? > > If this is so, simple pluming a reservoir will not work as it will not > > take the pressure when the lever is pulled. > > A simple short tube screwed into the master cylinder, then the original > > plug screwed onto the top to seal the unit. This will allow for extra > > fluid and allow for the wear down of the pads. > > > > I could be wrong!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:04 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? Raimo Toivio wrote: > > Tim, > > I think valve is not necessary if you keep the reservoir always full-filled. > And it is easy to keep it so (much easier like cylinder). > Adding no-return valve is a 2nd level to enhance brake system.(I assume no-return-valve is like diode for electricitet). > > Raimo OH-XRT Raimo, you would need to use a resevoir that can take full brake pressure. You would probably burst it if you try hard braking. Graham ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:07 AM PST US From: Bob Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? Raimo, If the fill opening of the master cylinder is in the pressure side of the cylinder and you connect the reservoir directly to it, then when you apply the brake the pressure will force the fluid in the cylinder back into the reservoir. Notice that the reservoir cap is vented. If the reservoir is full and you apply the brake the fluid will be forced out the vent hole and you will only make a mess of the area around the reservoir. I guess you could try plugging the vent and filling the reservoir full in an effort to contain the pressure but then you are making the plastic body a pressure vessel. I don't know how long the plastic would accept such pressure cycling before it either stripped some set of threads or just cracked. And you have a mess around the reservoir. There will have to be some means of closing the system between the reservoir and master cylinder. It can be a check valve (yes similar to a diode in an electrical sense, something similar to the check valves used in the fuel system to provide bypass of a failed pump) or a manually operated valve which would be open to fill the master cylinder and closed for brake operation. This would require a re-write of the aircraft check list to confirm close prior to engine start and open after engine shutdown. More complication to the operation. Bob On Friday, October 16, 2009, at 05:14AM, "Raimo Toivio" wrote: > >Tim, > >I think valve is not necessary if you keep the reservoir always full-filled. >And it is easy to keep it so (much easier like cylinder). >Adding no-return valve is a 2nd level to enhance brake system.(I assume no-return-valve is like diode for electricitet). > >Raimo OH-XRT > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tim Ward" >To: >Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:44 PM >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? > > >> >> Don't forget a 'non-return valve' has to be installed as well. >> Tim Ward >> 12 Waiwetu Street' >> Fendalton, >> Christchurch. >> NEW ZEALAND >> >> Ph. 64 3 3515166 >> Mob 021 0640221 >> Email ward.t@xtra.co.nz >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Flying Farmer" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:27 AM >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? >> >> >> > >> > >> > Please don't throw loose articles at me from around your work shop's >> > But aren't the Mono Brake cylinders ( Trigear Toe Brakes ) A sealed unit >> > and only work when the top filling plug is installed? >> > If this is so, simple pluming a reservoir will not work as it will not >> > take the pressure when the lever is pulled. >> > A simple short tube screwed into the master cylinder, then the original >> > plug screwed onto the top to seal the unit. This will allow for extra >> > fluid and allow for the wear down of the pads. >> > >> > I could be wrong!!! >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:53 AM PST US From: Bob Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? Graham, Raimo, et. al., In looking at ACS trying to find specs on my old ACS reservoir, I see that ACS no longer sells this model. The latest model has a machined aluminum body. I would bet that one could be sealed with a non-vented 1/8 NPT plug so that if filled to capacity, it would take the brake system pressures. But then you would still have the problem of brake wear requiring more fluid in the calipers and you would have to add fluid to the reservoir. And when you put on new brake pads, you'd have to remove the extra fluid from the reservoir. Same problem as with only the master cylinder except that the reservoir may be easier to access. One really needs some sort of valving between the reservoir and master cylinder to allow the fluid to move back and forth when that is necessary or seal the system for brake operation. Bob On Friday, October 16, 2009, at 07:54AM, "Graham Singleton" wrote: > >Raimo Toivio wrote: >> >> Tim, >> >> I think valve is not necessary if you keep the reservoir always full-filled. >> And it is easy to keep it so (much easier like cylinder). >> Adding no-return valve is a 2nd level to enhance brake system.(I assume no-return-valve is like diode for electricitet). >> >> Raimo OH-XRT >Raimo, >you would need to use a resevoir that can take full brake pressure. You >would probably burst it if you try hard braking. >Graham > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:55 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? For those people who are content with the existing master cylinder set up and do not want to modify it, you may find my method worth trying. I use a plastic nozzle usually supplied with mastic cartridges as a funnel. Cut the end back until it can be screwed into the filler hole, stuff some rag around the base of it, pour a drop of fluid in, pump the brake leaver a few times, remove the nozzle, screw the filler cap back on and remove the rag, job done! Takes about 5 mins. Pumping the leaver blows any air out that enters when you remove the plug and if there is a small amount left in the funnel after doing so, on removing the funnel it is soaked up by the rag and also ensures the cylinder is full to the brim prior to refitting the plug. Only pour a very small amount into the funnel, which leaves plenty of room for fluid to be pumped out of the cylinder along with any air when operating the leaver. With each stroke of the leaver give the air time to rise up through the fluid in the funnel before releasing it and sucking the fluid back into the cylinder. Jim Naylor > > Fellow Europaphiles, > > I have started a new album on my site: "Brake Reservoir Study." So far, > there are 4 pics of the ACS brake reservoir with some descriptive text. > > Next step will be to identify the following elements: > > 1. Fitting to screw into the bottom of the reservoir to attach a hose. > 2. Hose > 3. Fitting to screw into the fill-hole of the master cylinder to which > the other end of the hose will attach. > 4. Some sort of check valve to go in the system somewhere to enable the > brake master to generate the pressure necessary to function rather than > just squirt brake fluid back into the reservoir. > > Any ideas or suggestions are welcome! > > Check six, > Bob Borger > Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4514 (20091016) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:36 AM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? Wow, Not to throw rain on the parade, but the brake system is simple. Graham and Jim Naylor are nicely saying it but I'll be the bad guy. I hate my original Europa Master Cylinders but they are simple and light. Europa supplies a threaded aluminum filler that works like Jim Naylor's. Open the plug, screw it in and fill the cylinder. If you have a bubble still in the brake due to it's angle, take out the holding screws and lean the cylinder to allow that bubble to escape (normally not necessary for floor mount). This works great for the typical fill when the pads are wearing thin maintenance operations. As for bleeding. I bleed from the bottom up using a syringe filled with the appropriate fluid and push it up to the top. I get real lazy and put a 1/4 inch silicone rubber tube in the threaded hole (it seals around the threads well enough) and run the silicone tube to a cup under the wheel well to allow overflow to come out of the master fill cap and travel down to the cup via the inside of the wheel well. This way I can monitor how I'm doing. When you pull the tube out, the fluid level in the cylinder is topped off automatically. For the floor mounted brakes, I pull the carpet (just in case) and put the silicone tube in and run it vertical out a small hole in the pilots footwell. Another thing. Europa supplies a buna brake seal that works great, just in case you forgot to install it originally or it has worn. You must have them if using mil spec fluids. Brake bleed kit funnel is about $15 Buna Seals: O-ring BS113 and the brake cup N7193 (trigear) are about the same price. These seals are great, and with the filler makes for a no drip system (OK, some, because I have never bled brakes without a mess of some sort on the floor). Just email Roger at Europa and save some engineering time. As Jim eludes to the fact, it's pretty simple as is, and Graham notes there are many other concerns when trying to mod these particular cylinders for a reservoir. If you must have a reservoir, go to a regular Matco or similar master cylinder and save the engineering time as it is already done for you. Just my thoughts. Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: jim.naylor@talktalk.net To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:55 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? > For those people who are content with the existing master cylinder set up and do not want to modify it, you may find my method worth trying. I use a plastic nozzle usually supplied with mastic cartridges as a funnel. Cut the end back until it can be screwed into the filler hole, stuff some rag around the base of it, pour a drop of fluid in, pump the brake leaver a few times, remove the nozzle, screw the filler cap back on and remove the rag, job done! Takes about 5 mins. Pumping the leaver blows any air out that enters when you remove the plug and if there is a small amount left in the funnel after doing so, on removing the funnel it is soaked up by the rag and also ensures the cylinder is full to the brim prior to refitting the plug. Only pour a very small amount into the funnel, which leaves plenty of room for fluid to be pumped out of the cylinder along with any air when operating the leaver. With each stroke of the leaver give the air time to rise up through the fluid in the funnel before releasing it and sucking the fluid back into the cylinder. Jim Naylor > > > Fellow Europaphiles, > > I have started a new album on my site: "Brake Reservoir Study." So far, > there are 4 pics of the ACS brake reservoir with some descriptive text. > > Next step will be to identify the following elements: > > 1. Fitting to screw into the bottom of the reservoir to attach a hose. > 2. Hose > 3. Fitting to screw into the fill-hole of the master cylinder to which > the other end of the hose will attach. > 4. Some sort of check valve to go in the system somewhere to enable the > brake master to generate the pressure necessary to function rather than > just squirt brake fluid back into the reservoir. > > Any ideas or suggestions are welcome! > > Check six, > Bob Borger > Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4514 (20091016) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:04:36 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel master cylinder? From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Bob "One really needs some sort of valving between the reservoir and master cylinder to allow the fluid to move back and forth when that is necessary or seal the system for brake operation." I never operatedmaster cylinder for my Monowith fluid in it. I never saw a master cylinder with a fill on the pressure side of the cylinder. Are you absolute sure the fill cap is on the pressure side? Most master cylinders have reservoir on the "when piston is in the home position" will allow flow in or out of a passage to charge piston with no valve necessary,. When piston isactuated and it seals off the charge passage. If the factory supplied mono master cylinder in fact has the fill on the pressure side of the piston, an easy resolve would be a screw down arrangement. I forget the exact term, perhaps it is "fake piston" or something like that, but i am refering to a model aeroplane diesel. You see you can't start one with full compression, so you unscrew an arrangement on top and it lowers compression, once engine is running you screw it in to increase compression. You don't want any leaks, they figured it out so they don't leak. PAW is one mfg going down toI think as samll as .030 cubic inches. Anyway idea could be to either use actual model cylinder, or make a piston that you can screw down and decrease volume, or make an arrangement that does so. In other words it would be another mini master cylinder. Worn brakes tighten, new brakes loosen. You can install on filler of factory master cylinder or "T" it off anywhere brake line. I remember seeing a hang glider tow arrangement, it used an automotive brake disk, and an average run of the mill automotive master cylinder. The disc was attached to the rope spool. The operator could increase or decrease tension (there was a pressure gauge) by screwing a "T" handled screw in or out that actuated the master cylinder instead of ones foot pushing on the lever. Anyway think of the easiest way to squeeze, or unsqueeze the tube of toothpaste so you don't need complex valving. Perhaps a few components from a very simple bicycle master cylinder? 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