Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:16 AM - What's My Contribution Used For? (Matt Dralle)
1. 02:19 AM - Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Raimo Toivio)
2. 03:43 AM - Cowling with no access doors (Raimo Toivio)
3. 03:58 AM - Re: Safety improvement list (G-IANI)
4. 05:04 AM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (David Conrad)
5. 05:05 AM - Re: Safety improvement list (Peter Zutrauen)
6. 07:09 AM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (rampil)
7. 07:14 AM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Karl Heindl)
8. 07:29 AM - Re: Safety improvement list (Brian Davies)
9. 07:47 AM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Peter Zutrauen)
10. 07:53 AM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Pete Lawless)
11. 07:57 AM - Cowling with no access doors (Fred Klein)
12. 08:26 AM - Re: Safety improvement list (G-IANI)
13. 08:49 AM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Karl Heindl)
14. 09:33 AM - Re: Safety improvement list (david miller)
15. 09:45 AM - Re: Safety improvement list (Raimo Toivio)
16. 10:12 AM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Raimo Toivio)
17. 10:25 AM - Re: Safety improvement list (Raimo Toivio)
18. 11:16 AM - Re: Cowling with no access doors (Raimo Toivio)
19. 11:24 AM - Re: Safety improvement list (Raimo Toivio)
20. 11:33 AM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Raimo Toivio)
21. 11:57 AM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (rampil)
22. 12:03 PM - Re: Safety improvement list (Tim Ward)
23. 02:17 PM - Re: Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Peter Zutrauen)
24. 02:43 PM - Re: Safety improvement list (Fred Klein)
25. 02:45 PM - Re: Safety improvement list (Frans Veldman)
26. 02:50 PM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Frans Veldman)
27. 02:50 PM - Re: Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Frans Veldman)
28. 03:20 PM - Re: Safety improvement list (Frans Veldman)
29. 03:20 PM - Re: Cowling with no access doors (Frans Veldman)
30. 03:20 PM - Re: Cowling with no access doors (Fred Klein)
31. 04:24 PM - Re: Safety improvement list (Graham Singleton)
Message 0
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| Subject: | What's My Contribution Used For? |
Dear Listers,
Some have asked, "What's my Contribution used for?" and that's a good question.
Here are just a few examples of what your direct List support enables. It provides
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Engine, List Browser, and Forums. It pays for narly 20 years (yeah, I really
said *20* years) worth of online archive data available for instant random search
and access. And, it offsets the many hours spent writing, developing, and
maintaining the custom applications that power this List Service such as the List
Browse, Search Engine, Forums, and Wiki.
But most importantly, your List Contribution enables a forum where you and your
peers can communicate freely in an environment that is free from moderation,
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on the Internet can you make all those statements these days?
It is YOUR CONTRIBUTION that directly enables these many aspects of these valuable
List services. Please support it today with your List Contribution. Its one
of the best investments you can make in your Sport...
List Contribution Web Site:
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Thank you for your support!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
Message 1
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| Subject: | Door locked inflight by pip-pins. |
"Are you serious ? In an accident, how would a potential rescuer get the
doors open ?"
Karl,
I understand your point but I have thought it very carefully and I am
very serious and happy with my always locked doors when inflight (I have
pip-pins both side)!
The risks of the unlocked doors when inflight are heavier than the risks
of the pip-pin locked doors when crash landed.
Consider this:
1) An unthinking passenger can easily lift the lever and ask "what is
this?". Shit happens, really.
The pip pin prevents accidents like this - a pilot has more time to
react and say no no no.
The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a retarder!
2) Pilots=B4s or co-pilot=B4s sleeve could easily lift the lever by
accident - pip pin prevents this.
The guard alone is good but not 100% guaranteed. The function of the
pip-pin is in this case to be a safety catch.
3) Passenger side=B4s pip-pin is a good, simple and effective door lock
when grounded.
The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be just a lock.
4) I have in my POH: before emergency landing remove door pip-pins.
5) In the case of emergency landing and the doors are still locked: do
you really think it is difficult to open the door? Just kick the window
and it is gone, surely! For "potential rescuer" it is not a problem at
all! It is the smallest worry in this case! Those pip-pins are clearly
visible and understandable.
BTW both of the C172=B4s doors are inflight lockable. I know some
people lock them and some do not. I locked them always when flying but
that was for personal comfort only. When locked the lever was levelled
and the armrest was usable. I am not sure what do they say in Cessnas
POH - my guess is "do open the door locks before landing".
Karl, do you accept my (serious) points?
Would you like to see the pick of my pip-pin equipped door lever guards?
Raimo OH-XRT
Message 2
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| Subject: | Cowling with no access doors |
> 4) Cowlings
> - do not make those little oil/water check doors - so you have to take whole
upper cowling away and see and check same time much much more (weight penalty
none, use cam locks or equal - so it is pleasure to open so often you like - I
do it every 5 flight hrs)
"This is radical, but a good point actually. Although it may invite you
to not bother with checking the water and oil if you are in a hurry to
go home. I know, you should never fall into this trap, but we are all
human and it is temptive to skip checks that take too long if bad
weather is approaching and you need to leave the airport."
Frans,
Oh yes I know I am a little bit radical, criminal and provoking.
A good pilot follow (his) rules always - also when hurry and a storm is coming.
If he has not time enough - he will cancel the planned flight.
A bad pilot does not and the easily openable access doors do not help.
She /he will skipp also them. That is so simple.
One sad example from Finland during last summer: a Piper pilot was hurry and he
does not even walk around his plane. Soon after take off he crashed - followed
one fatal. Why? There was still hanging a concrete ground weight from his tail
wheel. They say he was very experienced old school pilot. Maybe he checked
the oil...
IMHO, checking oil (and water) before every flight is an old habit coming from
history (and checking oil is still necessary when Lyco/Conti engines). With modern
engines like Rotax I think (again IMHO) it is not necessary to check before
EVERY flight. I check them only after every 5 hours. That means sometimes once
a day but sometimes once a month. Between oil change period it does not loose
or burn oil at all - so is water also. If there is a bad leak - it is seenable
easily outside the cowlings.
Modern car engines can run 30000 km or more from oil change to oil change and the
oil level is always same.
That means about an average let is say 400 hours or more. How often we check water
and oil in our cars? Our fathers or granfas checked them every day. It was
a must.
It is much more important (again IMHO) to find an evidence of any leaks like exhaust.
To check are the carbs still fixed. To correct any loose items. How are
all the pipes, wires, hoses and so. That is impossible via access doors.
That is why they are useless. When you have not them, you have to open the upper
cowling and you have a good possibility to check more. I am sure that is a good
enhancement for safety.
And much more easier and fun if the cowling is easily removable. I have one friend
who hasa plane with cowling with hinges and gas pumps to keep it open. He
press the button in the cockpit and it is open!
Other benefits when no access doors in the cowling:
1) looks better
2) more streamlined and a bit faster
3) more lightweight and a bit simpler
4 faster to build
5 no risk to loose the access door during flight (that could also be a fatal case
- it has happened)
I am sure some of you - not Frans - would like to execute me now. That is normal.
Welcome.
Raimo OH-XRT
Message 3
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| Subject: | Safety improvement list |
Frans and all,
Some comments on your safety improvement list
1) Safety belts.
Do not use types which formulate loops - Agreed
Make modified upper fixing points - Agreed
I am not sure you need the "lengthened and foldable headrest".
2) Fuel systems
- routing outside the cabin (weight penalty none or some) - Agreed in
principal. G-IANI is a Trigear so all the fuel system is in the centre
tunnel
- return line with one-way-valve or emergency off-selector - Sounds a
good
idea, I will talk to LAA about this
- do not use original glass fuel filters ' They have there limitation
but
are acceptable if they are accessible and can be monitored and cleaned.
Has
anyone found a reasonably priced substitute we could standardise on.
- consider the safety of sight gauge and it=B4s location. ' What the
manual
recommends is not good. Of the variations that builders have done which
is
the best compromise in terms of safety and functionality?
- have a fuel warning /gauge/pressure gauge /computer - Agreed I would
not
fly G-IANI without it
3) Doors
- use unintentioned opening guards and secure them with pip-pins to
levers
- In the UK the LAA do not approve this. It is a value judgement on the
risks involved.
- install serial connected micro switches w warning lights behind shoot
bolts. - OK but, as Karl said, they can lead to a false sense of
security.
A manual check is essential
4) Cowlings
- do not make those little oil/water check doors - so you have to take
whole
upper cowling away and see and check same time much much more (weight
penalty none, use cam locks or equal - so it is pleasure to open so
often
you like - I do it every 5 flight hrs)
I have Southco fasteners on my cowl. They are a lot of work to fit but
do
make removing the cowl a lot easier. I still think you need the
oil/water
check doors for doing the daily =93A=94 check.
5) Electrics
- use two serial connected master switches; so called panel mstr leaves
juice for trim, stall warner, charging for emergency batteries, clocks,
burglar alarms, horns, convenience lights AND an engine starter - total
master cuts everything (weight penalty none, normally my total master is
always on, I close it only during longs stays over two weeks or just
before
possible crash I wish, panel mstr switch uses light weight 40A relay
which
uses only few milliamperes, total mstr switch is mechanical with "a key"
and
uses 0 amperes)
That is essentially how G-IANI is set up1. Both my switches are
mechanical
6) Cockpit equipments
- have a carbon monoxide detector - Agreed
- have a Halon fire extinguisher ' Agreed it is a requirement in the
UK
- have a personal locater beacon with gps - Agreed
- have a stall warner or AoA indicator - Agreed
7) Outside equipments
- have at least strobes - Agreed. This is something that should be in
the
manual
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 280 hours
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. |
Gentlemen,
I don't want to add to controversy, but...
I have independently come to the conclusion of using pip pins... actually t
he little red spring loaded ones from the Andair fuel selectors.
Loosing a door in flight is Bad - Bad - Bad!
External Placcards describing how to open the door, and glider window vents
allow access to the internal locking mechanism when on the ground.- Glid
ers don't have external door handles... there is no reason our Europas need
external door handles either.
Dave Conrad
A078, Monowheel
914, short and long wings
Building
--- On Wed, 11/18/09, Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> wrote:
From: Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
Subject: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.
=0A=0A =0A#yiv442352437 hmmessage P {=0APADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;
PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;}=0A#yiv442352437 {=0AFONT-SI
ZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Verdana;}=0A=0A=0A"Are you serious ? In an accident, ho
w would a potential rescuer get the =0Adoors open ?"
=0AKarl,=0A-=0AI understand your point but I have thought it very =0Acare
fully and I am very serious and happy with my always locked doors when =0Ai
nflight (I have pip-pins both side)!=0A-=0AThe risks of the unlocked door
s-when =0Ainflight-are heavier than the risks of the pip-pin locked doo
rs when crash =0Alanded.=0A-=0AConsider this:=0A-=0A1)-An unthinking
passenger-can easily lift the =0Alever and ask "what is this?". Shit happ
ens, really.=0AThe pip pin prevents accidents like this --a =0Apilot-ha
s more time to react and say no no no.=0AThe function of the pip-pin is in
this case to be a =0Aretarder!=0A-=0A2) Pilots=B4s or co-pilot=B4s sleeve
could easily lift the =0Alever by accident - pip pin prevents this.=0AThe
guard alone is good but not 100% guaranteed. The =0Afunction of the pip-pin
is in this case to be a safety catch.=0A-=0A3) Passenger side=B4s pip-pi
n is a good, simple and =0Aeffective door lock when grounded.=0AThe functio
n of the pip-pin is in this case to be just a =0Alock.=0A-=0A4) I have in
my POH: before emergency landing remove =0Adoor pip-pins.=0A-=0A5) In th
e case of emergency landing and the doors are =0Astill locked: do you reall
y think it is difficult to open the door? Just kick =0Athe window and it is
gone, surely! For "potential rescuer" it is not a problem =0Aat all! It is
the smallest worry in this case! Those pip-pins are clearly =0Avisible and
understandable.=0A-=0ABTW-both of the C172=B4s--doors-are =0Ainf
light lockable. I know some people-lock them and some do not. I locked
=0Athem always when flying but that was for personal comfort only. When loc
ked the =0Alever was levelled and the armrest was usable. I am not sure wha
t do they say in =0ACessnas POH - my guess is "do open the door locks befor
e landing".=0A-=0AKarl, do you accept my (serious) points? =0A-=0AWould
you like to see the pick of my pip-pin equipped =0Adoor lever guards?=0A
=0A=0A=0A
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Safety improvement list |
"4) Cowlings
- do not make those little oil/water check doors - so you have to take whol
e
upper cowling away and see and check same time much much more (weight
penalty none, use cam locks or equal - so it is pleasure to open so often
you like - I do it every 5 flight hrs)
I have Southco fasteners on my cowl. They are a lot of work to fit but do
make removing the cowl a lot easier. I still think you need the oil/water
check doors for doing the daily =93A=94 check."
.... or maybe use the piano hinge method, with a removable hing rod on eac
h
side (a-la RV's)? Leaving just the top with fasteners.
Cheers,
Pete
A239
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. |
"Loss of door in flight is Bad Bad Bad"
Just to throw a few facts into the mix:
There are a number of cases now, including the Florida factory
demonstrator.
It is embarrassing, It is expensive, It creates a lot of air noise.
It does not impact flight characteristics. The door has not yet
ever hit the empennage. The plane has been flown intentionally
without doors.
Door loss is considered an incident, not accident and so are not
reported to the NTSB.
The factory design is better than you give credit for.
In many countries experimental aircraft builders have freedom to
experiment. There are three rules worth considering:
1: Everything is a tradeoff, a balance of risk and benefit.
2: There are always unintended consequences.
3:(my favorite, direct from B. Rutan): When considering a new
device for an aircraft, place the device in your palm, then
accelerate, said device skyward greater than 1g. If the device
returns to earth, do not install it, it is clearly too heavy!
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273509#273509
Message 7
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| Subject: | Door locked inflight by pip-pins. |
Raimo=2C
Yes=2C I accept your reasoning=2C and I am surprised to read that Cessnas h
ave internal locks. Their checklists probably say to not have them locked o
n takeoff and landing. My PFA inspector would not have approved the mod=2C
although=2C my passenger door does have a pip pin lock for locking on the g
round only. Of course=2C if I were to end up inverted=2C which is very like
ly in a trigear=2C in an otherwise successful emergency landing=2C it would
n't make any difference whether doors were locked or not=2C as the doors co
uldn't be opened anyway=2C except with brute force. I keep meaning to get o
ne of those emergency exit hammers just for that nightmare situation=2C and
to reroute the fuel vent to the bottom of the fuselage.
Regarding CO alarms=2C I can only recommend one which shows any presence of
the gas in ppm=2C and with a high pitched alarm when a safe figure and/or
duration is exceeded. You can get them in any hardware store.
I had a case not long ago=2C when a loose exhaust pipe caused some carbon m
onoxide to leak into the cabin. On the other hand=2C it also confirmed that
fumes which sometimes enter via the flap slots on landing did not register
on the instrument.
Karl
From: raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
Subject: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.
"Are you serious ? In an accident=2C how would a potential rescuer get the
doors open ?"
Karl=2C
I understand your point but I have thought it very carefully and I am very
serious and happy with my always locked doors when inflight (I have pip-pin
s both side)!
The risks of the unlocked doors when inflight are heavier than the risks of
the pip-pin locked doors when crash landed.
Consider this:
1) An unthinking passenger can easily lift the lever and ask "what is this?
". Shit happens=2C really.
The pip pin prevents accidents like this - a pilot has more time to react a
nd say no no no.
The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a retarder!
2) Pilots=B4s or co-pilot=B4s sleeve could easily lift the lever by acciden
t - pip pin prevents this.
The guard alone is good but not 100% guaranteed. The function of the pip-pi
n is in this case to be a safety catch.
3) Passenger side=B4s pip-pin is a good=2C simple and effective door lock w
hen grounded.
The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be just a lock.
4) I have in my POH: before emergency landing remove door pip-pins.
5) In the case of emergency landing and the doors are still locked: do you
really think it is difficult to open the door? Just kick the window and it
is gone=2C surely! For "potential rescuer" it is not a problem at all! It i
s the smallest worry in this case! Those pip-pins are clearly visible and u
nderstandable.
BTW both of the C172=B4s doors are inflight lockable. I know some people l
ock them and some do not. I locked them always when flying but that was for
personal comfort only. When locked the lever was levelled and the armrest
was usable. I am not sure what do they say in Cessnas POH - my guess is "do
open the door locks before landing".
Karl=2C do you accept my (serious) points?
Would you like to see the pick of my pip-pin equipped door lever guards?
Raimo OH-XRT
Message 8
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| Subject: | Safety improvement list |
In the UK, homebuilts are daylight VFR only. I have never spotted an
aircraft in daylight by seeing its strobes. I dont think they are an
essential safety feature.
Regarding the check valve in the fuel return line, has there ever been
an
incident/accident where the lack of one has caused a fire?
It is very easy to add a long list of additional safety items (and
weight)
using a "what if" method. If you are carrying out a proper risk
assessment
you should always balance this with probability and the consequences of
the
risk materialising.
The reason everyone in the UK has to wear hard hats, high vis jackets,
safety boots and safety glasses to change a light bulb is because of
defective risk assessment.
Brian Davies
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of G-IANI
Sent: 18 November 2009 11:56
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list
Frans and all,
Some comments on your safety improvement list
1) Safety belts.
Do not use types which formulate loops - Agreed
Make modified upper fixing points - Agreed
I am not sure you need the "lengthened and foldable headrest".
2) Fuel systems
- routing outside the cabin (weight penalty none or some) - Agreed in
principal. G-IANI is a Trigear so all the fuel system is in the centre
tunnel
- return line with one-way-valve or emergency off-selector - Sounds a
good
idea, I will talk to LAA about this
- do not use original glass fuel filters ' They have there limitation
but
are acceptable if they are accessible and can be monitored and cleaned.
Has
anyone found a reasonably priced substitute we could standardise on.
- consider the safety of sight gauge and it=B4s location. ' What the
manual
recommends is not good. Of the variations that builders have done which
is
the best compromise in terms of safety and functionality?
- have a fuel warning /gauge/pressure gauge /computer - Agreed I would
not
fly G-IANI without it
3) Doors
- use unintentioned opening guards and secure them with pip-pins to
levers
- In the UK the LAA do not approve this. It is a value judgement on the
risks involved.
- install serial connected micro switches w warning lights behind shoot
bolts. - OK but, as Karl said, they can lead to a false sense of
security.
A manual check is essential
4) Cowlings
- do not make those little oil/water check doors - so you have to take
whole
upper cowling away and see and check same time much much more (weight
penalty none, use cam locks or equal - so it is pleasure to open so
often
you like - I do it every 5 flight hrs)
I have Southco fasteners on my cowl. They are a lot of work to fit but
do
make removing the cowl a lot easier. I still think you need the
oil/water
check doors for doing the daily =93A=94 check.
5) Electrics
- use two serial connected master switches; so called panel mstr leaves
juice for trim, stall warner, charging for emergency batteries, clocks,
burglar alarms, horns, convenience lights AND an engine starter - total
master cuts everything (weight penalty none, normally my total master is
always on, I close it only during longs stays over two weeks or just
before
possible crash I wish, panel mstr switch uses light weight 40A relay
which
uses only few milliamperes, total mstr switch is mechanical with "a key"
and
uses 0 amperes)
That is essentially how G-IANI is set up1. Both my switches are
mechanical
6) Cockpit equipments
- have a carbon monoxide detector - Agreed
- have a Halon fire extinguisher ' Agreed it is a requirement in the
UK
- have a personal locater beacon with gps - Agreed
- have a stall warner or AoA indicator - Agreed
7) Outside equipments
- have at least strobes - Agreed. This is something that should be in
the
manual
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 280 hours
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com
11/18/09
07:50:00
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. |
"Of course, if I were to end up inverted, which is very likely in a trigear,
in an otherwise successful emergency landing, it wouldn't make any
difference whether doors were locked or not, as the doors couldn't be opened
anyway, except with brute force. I keep meaning to get one of those
emergency exit hammers just for that nightmare situation"
FWIW,
I am planning on installing releasable-hinge pins for the doors..... all
attached to a single emergency pull handle via thin/light cables, which will
simply pull all the hinge pins out, allowing for the door to more easily
pushed out sideways (the strut would still attach them somewhat).
Cheers,
Pete
A239
Message 10
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| Subject: | Door locked inflight by pip-pins. |
Hi
Just checked the 172R manual from Feb 2000. The internal door handle
has 3
positions ' open, close and lock. The check list calls for doors to
be
locked prior to flight. The forced lading check list calls for =91doors
to be
unlatched prior to touch down=92.
It all adds an interesting extra task at 100 feet after take off when it
all
goes quiet!
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
Sent: 18 November 2009 15:13
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.
Raimo,
Yes, I accept your reasoning, and I am surprised to read that Cessnas
have
internal locks. Their checklists probably say to not have them locked on
takeoff and landing. My PFA inspector would not have approved the mod,
although, my passenger door does have a pip pin lock for locking on the
ground only. Of course, if I were to end up inverted, which is very
likely
in a trigear, in an otherwise successful emergency landing, it wouldn't
make
any difference whether doors were locked or not, as the doors couldn't
be
opened anyway, except with brute force. I keep meaning to get one of
those
emergency exit hammers just for that nightmare situation, and to reroute
the
fuel vent to the bottom of the fuselage.
Regarding CO alarms, I can only recommend one which shows any presence
of
the gas in ppm, and with a high pitched alarm when a safe figure and/or
duration is exceeded. You can get them in any hardware store.
I had a case not long ago, when a loose exhaust pipe caused some carbon
monoxide to leak into the cabin. On the other hand, it also confirmed
that
fumes which sometimes enter via the flap slots on landing did not
register
on the instrument.
Karl
_____
From: raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
Subject: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.
"Are you serious ? In an accident, how would a potential rescuer get the
doors open ?"
Karl,
I understand your point but I have thought it very carefully and I am
very
serious and happy with my always locked doors when inflight (I have
pip-pins
both side)!
The risks of the unlocked doors when inflight are heavier than the risks
of
the pip-pin locked doors when crash landed.
Consider this:
1) An unthinking passenger can easily lift the lever and ask "what is
this?". Shit happens, really.
The pip pin prevents accidents like this - a pilot has more time to
react
and say no no no.
The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a retarder!
2) Pilots=B4s or co-pilot=B4s sleeve could easily lift the lever by
accident -
pip pin prevents this.
The guard alone is good but not 100% guaranteed. The function of the
pip-pin
is in this case to be a safety catch.
3) Passenger side=B4s pip-pin is a good, simple and effective door lock
when
grounded.
The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be just a lock.
4) I have in my POH: before emergency landing remove door pip-pins.
5) In the case of emergency landing and the doors are still locked: do
you
really think it is difficult to open the door? Just kick the window and
it
is gone, surely! For "potential rescuer" it is not a problem at all! It
is
the smallest worry in this case! Those pip-pins are clearly visible and
understandable.
BTW both of the C172=B4s doors are inflight lockable. I know some
people lock
them and some do not. I locked them always when flying but that was for
personal comfort only. When locked the lever was levelled and the
armrest
was usable. I am not sure what do they say in Cessnas POH - my guess is
"do
open the door locks before landing".
Karl, do you accept my (serious) points?
Would you like to see the pick of my pip-pin equipped door lever guards?
Raimo OH-XRT
lectric.com
/">www.buildersbooks.com
ebuilthelp.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ronics.com
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| Subject: | Cowling with no access doors |
On Nov 18, 2009, at 3:42 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
> And much more easier and fun if the cowling is easily removable. I
> have one friend who hasa plane with cowling with hinges and gas
> pumps to keep it open.
Alex Bowman hinges his top cowl...wouldn't have it any other way...
Fred
Message 12
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| Subject: | Safety improvement list |
- return line with one-way-valve or emergency off-selector .
I have talked to Andy Draper on this topic. My analysis is as follows:-
Ideally the return pipe should be a single piece from end to end. So the
high risk of leakage is at the end connections (the pipe being severed mid
cockpit is, even in an accident, possible but very unlikely if properly
routed).
By fitting a one way valve, this suggests that the unwanted flow is coming
from the tank. The engine end (with the restrictor in it) is higher than the
tank so fuel would not flow from the line if disconnected. If the aircraft
is inverted then fuel will not flow from the tank.
So the only failure mode of concern is disconnection at the tank end. If
the valve is there it is at least 50% likely that the disconnection would be
between tank and valve, so the valve does not really make things much safer.
So I conclude that fitting a valve is superficially a good idea, but when
you analyse it I can't see a case for fitting a one-way valve.
Having an emergency hammer and the fuel vent(s) at the bottom of the
aircraft are good ideas I have implemented.
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 280 hours
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com
$B!!(B
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Davies
Sent: 18 November 2009 15:28
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list
In the UK, homebuilts are daylight VFR only. I have never spotted an
aircraft in daylight by seeing its strobes. I dont think they are an
essential safety feature.
Regarding the check valve in the fuel return line, has there ever been an
incident/accident where the lack of one has caused a fire?
It is very easy to add a long list of additional safety items (and weight)
using a "what if" method. If you are carrying out a proper risk assessment
you should always balance this with probability and the consequences of the
risk materialising.
The reason everyone in the UK has to wear hard hats, high vis jackets,
safety boots and safety glasses to change a light bulb is because of
defective risk assessment.
Brian Davies
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of G-IANI
Sent: 18 November 2009 11:56
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list
Frans and all,
Some comments on your safety improvement list
1) Safety belts.
Do not use types which formulate loops - Agreed
Make modified upper fixing points - Agreed
I am not sure you need the "lengthened and foldable headrest".
2) Fuel systems
- routing outside the cabin (weight penalty none or some) - Agreed in
principal. G-IANI is a Trigear so all the fuel system is in the centre
tunnel
- return line with one-way-valve or emergency off-selector - Sounds a good
idea, I will talk to LAA about this
- do not use original glass fuel filters - They have there limitation but
are acceptable if they are accessible and can be monitored and cleaned. Has
anyone found a reasonably priced substitute we could standardise on.
- consider the safety of sight gauge and it$B!-(Bs location. - What the manual
recommends is not good. Of the variations that builders have done which is
the best compromise in terms of safety and functionality?
- have a fuel warning /gauge/pressure gauge /computer - Agreed I would not
fly G-IANI without it
3) Doors
- use unintentioned opening guards and secure them with pip-pins to levers
- In the UK the LAA do not approve this. It is a value judgement on the
risks involved.
- install serial connected micro switches w warning lights behind shoot
bolts. - OK but, as Karl said, they can lead to a false sense of security.
A manual check is essential
4) Cowlings
- do not make those little oil/water check doors - so you have to take whole
upper cowling away and see and check same time much much more (weight
penalty none, use cam locks or equal - so it is pleasure to open so often
you like - I do it every 5 flight hrs)
I have Southco fasteners on my cowl. They are a lot of work to fit but do
make removing the cowl a lot easier. I still think you need the oil/water
check doors for doing the daily $B!H(BA$B!I(B check.
5) Electrics
- use two serial connected master switches; so called panel mstr leaves
juice for trim, stall warner, charging for emergency batteries, clocks,
burglar alarms, horns, convenience lights AND an engine starter - total
master cuts everything (weight penalty none, normally my total master is
always on, I close it only during longs stays over two weeks or just before
possible crash I wish, panel mstr switch uses light weight 40A relay which
uses only few milliamperes, total mstr switch is mechanical with "a key" and
uses 0 amperes)
That is essentially how G-IANI is set up1. Both my switches are mechanical
6) Cockpit equipments
- have a carbon monoxide detector - Agreed
- have a Halon fire extinguisher - Agreed it is a requirement in the UK
- have a personal locater beacon with gps - Agreed
- have a stall warner or AoA indicator - Agreed
7) Outside equipments
- have at least strobes - Agreed. This is something that should be in the
manual
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 280 hours
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http
://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
270.14.69/2508 - Release Date: 11/18/09 07:50:00
Message 13
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| Subject: | Door locked inflight by pip-pins. |
FWIW=2C
I am planning on installing releasable-hinge pins for the doors..... all a
ttached to a single emergency pull handle via thin/light cables=2C which wi
ll simply pull all the hinge pins out=2C allowing for the door to more easi
ly pushed out sideways (the strut would still attach them somewhat).
Pete=2C
A very nice idea. When you get it done=2C I would like to copy it. An indiv
idual quick release on each hinge would be adequate for me.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Safety improvement list |
Jan Volcic's aircraft had the sight gauge in the original
position
by the panel, It may well have contributed to the post crash fire
>
Locating the gauge between the seats seems like a better idea,
eliminating it altogether would perhaps be better yet, if regulations
allow.
With a 912S, I've often wondered whether it is better not to use
the
electric fuel pump during take off and landing, seems to me that the
engine
is more likely to suffer a mechanical problem than the
mechanical
fuel pump, and in the event of an emergency landing, I would prefer
not to
have fuel pumping - chances are I would forget to turn the pump
off.
Dave, C-FBZI, Tri-Gear, 175 hours
>
>
> 2) Fuel systems
>
>
> - consider the safety of sight gauge and it=B4s location. ' What
the
> manual recommends is not good. Of the variations that builders
> have done which is the best compromise in terms of safety and
> functionality?
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Safety improvement list |
Thanks Ian,
you seems to agree almost everything in my list.
Check my notice below.
----- Original Message -----
From: G-IANI
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 1:56 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list
Make modified upper fixing points - Agreed
I am not sure you need the "lengthened and foldable headrest".
That is an alternative if the original upper fixing point is still
going to be there. That mod is possible do afterwards. It is on my list.
With lenghtened headrest the safety belts do not compress your spinal -
they are coming from up. It is better to be also foldable - so it does
not restrict reaching back seat. I do not remember whos idea this was
but "he" has good pics of it.
- do not use original glass fuel filters - They have there limitation
but are acceptable if they are accessible and can be monitored and
cleaned. Has anyone found a reasonably priced substitute we could
standardise on.
I have. It is an original Rotax fuel filter. Goes direct instead of
Europa suplied Profuel filter. It is cheap, one piece and no glass at
all, only plastic, no separate parts, cannot assemble wrong manner
(because undismountable), unbreakable and when used throw away it. I
change them avery annual = every 50 hrs.
Keep it safe,
Raimo OH-XRT from Finland
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. |
Karl,
I checked today Cessna 182 P Skyline=B4s 1976 POH and there on the page
4-5 they say (check list before take off): " doors and windows must be
closed and locked".
Otherwise there would be no reason for internal lock for both doors.
Just wonder that because Cessna=B4s open cannot open totally during
flight because of airflow.
Once it opened slightly during my flight because it was unlocked. That
was a passenger side. It was open a little and there was a cap one or
two inches. My passenger - my wife actually - did not like that
semi-open-door flight at all.
On the page 3-5 (emergency landing instructions) they say "unlock the
doors just before touching the ground (!)".
Raimo OH-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: Karl Heindl
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 5:12 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.
Raimo,
Yes, I accept your reasoning, and I am surprised to read that Cessnas
have internal locks. Their checklists probably say to not have them
locked on takeoff and landing. My PFA inspector would not have approved
the mod, although, my passenger door does have a pip pin lock for
locking on the ground only. Of course, if I were to end up inverted,
which is very likely in a trigear, in an otherwise successful emergency
landing, it wouldn't make any difference whether doors were locked or
not, as the doors couldn't be opened anyway, except with brute force. I
keep meaning to get one of those emergency exit hammers just for that
nightmare situation, and to reroute the fuel vent to the bottom of the
fuselage.
Regarding CO alarms, I can only recommend one which shows any presence
of the gas in ppm, and with a high pitched alarm when a safe figure
and/or duration is exceeded. You can get them in any hardware store.
I had a case not long ago, when a loose exhaust pipe caused some
carbon monoxide to leak into the cabin. On the other hand, it also
confirmed that fumes which sometimes enter via the flap slots on landing
did not register on the instrument.
Karl
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:20:53 +0200
"Are you serious ? In an accident, how would a potential rescuer get
the doors open ?"
Karl,
I understand your point but I have thought it very carefully and I am
very serious and happy with my always locked doors when inflight (I have
pip-pins both side)!
The risks of the unlocked doors when inflight are heavier than the
risks of the pip-pin locked doors when crash landed.
Consider this:
1) An unthinking passenger can easily lift the lever and ask "what is
this?". Shit happens, really.
The pip pin prevents accidents like this - a pilot has more time to
react and say no no no.
The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a retarder!
2) Pilots=B4s or co-pilot=B4s sleeve could easily lift the lever by
accident - pip pin prevents this.
The guard alone is good but not 100% guaranteed. The function of the
pip-pin is in this case to be a safety catch.
3) Passenger side=B4s pip-pin is a good, simple and effective door
lock when grounded.
The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be just a lock.
4) I have in my POH: before emergency landing remove door pip-pins.
5) In the case of emergency landing and the doors are still locked: do
you really think it is difficult to open the door? Just kick the window
and it is gone, surely! For "potential rescuer" it is not a problem at
all! It is the smallest worry in this case! Those pip-pins are clearly
visible and understandable.
BTW both of the C172=B4s doors are inflight lockable. I know some
people lock them and some do not. I locked them always when flying but
that was for personal comfort only. When locked the lever was levelled
and the armrest was usable. I am not sure what do they say in Cessnas
POH - my guess is "do open the door locks before landing".
Karl, do you accept my (serious) points?
Would you like to see the pick of my pip-pin equipped door lever
guards?
Raimo OH-XRT
lectric.com
/">www.buildersbooks.com
ebuilthelp.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ronics.com
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Safety improvement list |
Brian,
do you use day time lights in your cars?
Can you believe it is in Finland mandatory 24 hrs and those few poor
cars without lights are almost invisible.
Human eye picks object=B4s with light easily - especially if it is
blinking. Strobes do.
Sure strobes are an essential safety feature. What more that better!
Light coloured planes front of the clouds or dark coloured planes front
of the ground are almost invisible without strobes for example. Or
Europa during typical English or Finnish rainy autumn...
Wearing safety glasses to change a light bulb
- that is a good investment for personal health ;)
Raimo OH-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Davies
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 5:28 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list
In the UK, homebuilts are daylight VFR only. I have never spotted an
aircraft in daylight by seeing its strobes. I dont think they are an
essential safety feature.
Regarding the check valve in the fuel return line, has there ever been
an incident/accident where the lack of one has caused a fire?
It is very easy to add a long list of additional safety items (and
weight) using a "what if" method. If you are carrying out a proper risk
assessment you should always balance this with probability and the
consequences of the risk materialising.
The reason everyone in the UK has to wear hard hats, high vis jackets,
safety boots and safety glasses to change a light bulb is because of
defective risk assessment.
Brian Davies
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of G-IANI
Sent: 18 November 2009 11:56
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list
Frans and all,
Some comments on your safety improvement list
1) Safety belts.
Do not use types which formulate loops - Agreed
Make modified upper fixing points - Agreed
I am not sure you need the "lengthened and foldable headrest".
2) Fuel systems
- routing outside the cabin (weight penalty none or some) - Agreed in
principal. G-IANI is a Trigear so all the fuel system is in the centre
tunnel
- return line with one-way-valve or emergency off-selector - Sounds a
good idea, I will talk to LAA about this
- do not use original glass fuel filters - They have there limitation
but are acceptable if they are accessible and can be monitored and
cleaned. Has anyone found a reasonably priced substitute we could
standardise on.
- consider the safety of sight gauge and it=B4s location. - What the
manual recommends is not good. Of the variations that builders have
done which is the best compromise in terms of safety and functionality?
- have a fuel warning /gauge/pressure gauge /computer - Agreed I
would not fly G-IANI without it
3) Doors
- use unintentioned opening guards and secure them with pip-pins to
levers - In the UK the LAA do not approve this. It is a value
judgement on the risks involved.
- install serial connected micro switches w warning lights behind
shoot bolts. - OK but, as Karl said, they can lead to a false sense of
security. A manual check is essential
4) Cowlings
- do not make those little oil/water check doors - so you have to take
whole upper cowling away and see and check same time much much more
(weight penalty none, use cam locks or equal - so it is pleasure to open
so often you like - I do it every 5 flight hrs)
I have Southco fasteners on my cowl. They are a lot of work to fit
but do make removing the cowl a lot easier. I still think you need the
oil/water check doors for doing the daily "A" check.
5) Electrics
- use two serial connected master switches; so called panel mstr
leaves juice for trim, stall warner, charging for emergency batteries,
clocks, burglar alarms, horns, convenience lights AND an engine starter
- total master cuts everything (weight penalty none, normally my total
master is always on, I close it only during longs stays over two weeks
or just before possible crash I wish, panel mstr switch uses light
weight 40A relay which uses only few milliamperes, total mstr switch is
mechanical with "a key" and uses 0 amperes)
That is essentially how G-IANI is set up1. Both my switches are
mechanical
6) Cockpit equipments
- have a carbon monoxide detector - Agreed
- have a Halon fire extinguisher - Agreed it is a requirement in the
UK
- have a personal locater beacon with gps - Agreed
- have a stall warner or AoA indicator - Agreed
7) Outside equipments
- have at least strobes - Agreed. This is something that should be
in the manual
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 280 hours
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
270.14.69/2508 - Release Date: 11/18/09 07:50:00
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling with no access doors |
Fred,
that is beautiful! And cannot see any access doors...look at mine also,
attached a pair of pics:
She also with her easily removable access doorless cowling is cute like
a virgin, isn=B4t she? ; ~~ ))
Raimo OH-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Klein" <fklein@orcasonline.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 5:56 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Cowling with no access doors
>
> On Nov 18, 2009, at 3:42 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
>
> > And much more easier and fun if the cowling is easily removable. I
> > have one friend who hasa plane with cowling with hinges and gas
> > pumps to keep it open.
>
> Alex Bowman hinges his top cowl...wouldn't have it any other way...
>
> Fred
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Safety improvement list |
Jan,
very good points to consider!
1) Fuel sight gauge: during building phase I understood to relocate it
between seats. That is not enough. Now, I hate to look at it. Fuel in
the cockpit just behind one millimeter thick plastic tube. One day that
clear tube is yellowed, agened and bristlened and it will broke and
spoil my upholstery or maybe more if happens during flight. It is almost
unnecesary item. Fill the tank always full and then you know surely how
much you have. During flight have a gauge /alarm /computer...and your
brains and a clock!
2) During emergency landing it (an electric fuel pump) must be off.
Better to remember to use master switch (2nd level or even 1st level one
if you have) so the pump is also off. What about a compromiss: during
short take off use an el fuel pump but with long runways do not?
Raimo OH-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: david miller
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Safety improvement list
Jan Volcic's aircraft had the sight gauge in the original position by
the panel, It may well have contributed to the post crash fire
Locating the gauge between the seats seems like a better idea,
eliminating it altogether would perhaps be better yet, if regulations
allow.
With a 912S, I've often wondered whether it is better not to use the
electric fuel pump during take off and landing, seems to me that the
engine
is more likely to suffer a mechanical problem than the mechanical fuel
pump, and in the event of an emergency landing, I would prefer not to
have fuel pumping - chances are I would forget to turn the pump off.
Dave, C-FBZI, Tri-Gear, 175 hours
2) Fuel systems
- consider the safety of sight gauge and it=B4s location. ' What
the manual recommends is not good. Of the variations that builders have
done which is the best compromise in terms of safety and functionality?
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
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Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. |
All,
so many of you have asked me to show my door security pip-pins that here
they are.
Pip-pin connects the guard and the lever together.
Pip-pin has a safety lanyard.
Placards:
1) "do not open during flight" (both sides)
2) "open" with an arrow (both sides)
3) "Warning! Only the pilot is allowed to open - close - lock the door"
(passenger side only!).
Last notice is because of security and partly because I do not like an
idea to repair the internal parts of the door after somebody has locked
it using unnecessary extra force.
They work fine and I feel good with them. I could not imagine
possibility to fly without them.
Nice to be with you - Mr. Dave Conrad - in a same club flying with
"locked" eh retarded doors...
Raimo OH-XRT
(flying with pip-pinned doors)
----- Original Message -----
From: David Conrad
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.
Gentlemen,
I don't want to add to controversy, but...
I have independently come to the conclusion of using pip pins...
actually the little red spring loaded ones from the Andair fuel
selectors.
Loosing a door in flight is Bad - Bad - Bad!
External Placcards describing how to open the door, and glider
window vents allow access to the internal locking mechanism when on the
ground. Gliders don't have external door handles... there is no reason
our Europas need external door handles either.
Dave Conrad
A078, Monowheel
914, short and long wings
Building
--- On Wed, 11/18/09, Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> wrote:
From: Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
Subject: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 5:20 AM
"Are you serious ? In an accident, how would a potential
rescuer get the doors open ?"
Karl,
I understand your point but I have thought it very carefully
and I am very serious and happy with my always locked doors when
inflight (I have pip-pins both side)!
The risks of the unlocked doors when inflight are heavier than
the risks of the pip-pin locked doors when crash landed.
Consider this:
1) An unthinking passenger can easily lift the lever and ask
"what is this?". Shit happens, really.
The pip pin prevents accidents like this - a pilot has more
time to react and say no no no.
The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a retarder!
2) Pilots=B4s or co-pilot=B4s sleeve could easily lift the
lever by accident - pip pin prevents this.
The guard alone is good but not 100% guaranteed. The function
of the pip-pin is in this case to be a safety catch.
3) Passenger side=B4s pip-pin is a good, simple and effective
door lock when grounded.
The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be just a lock.
4) I have in my POH: before emergency landing remove door
pip-pins.
5) In the case of emergency landing and the doors are still
locked: do you really think it is difficult to open the door? Just kick
the window and it is gone, surely! For "potential rescuer" it is not a
problem at all! It is the smallest worry in this case! Those pip-pins
are clearly visible and understandable.
BTW both of the C172=B4s doors are inflight lockable. I know
some people lock them and some do not. I locked them always when flying
but that was for personal comfort only. When locked the lever was
levelled and the armrest was usable. I am not sure what do they say in
Cessnas POH - my guess is "do open the door locks before landing".
Karl, do you accept my (serious) points?
Would you like to see the pick of my pip-pin equipped door
lever guards?
Raimo OH-XRT
* The Builder's Bookstore
http://www.matronics.com/co============
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. |
Re internal quick-release hinges for door
Hi Peter,
Are you accounting for the compression/tension of the upper door as an
important structural member of the fuselage. It is my recollection that
the upper hinges and door frame are structural, not ornamental. I have
not done a FEA of the Europa but just looking suggests that the cockpit
roof and door members are in tension holding the fuselage from folding
down during flight.
Before committing to a change in aircraft structure, I'd really suggest
that you check with Andy, Dave, or Bud.
Good Luck,
Ira
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273589#273589
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Safety improvement list |
Well put Brian, quite agree. The art of 'risk management' is slowly
been lost.
Tim
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street'
Fendalton,
Christchurch.
NEW ZEALAND
Ph. 64 3 3515166
Mob 021 0640221
Email ward.t@xtra.co.nz
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Davies
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 4:28 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list
In the UK, homebuilts are daylight VFR only. I have never spotted an
aircraft in daylight by seeing its strobes. I dont think they are an
essential safety feature.
Regarding the check valve in the fuel return line, has there ever been
an incident/accident where the lack of one has caused a fire?
It is very easy to add a long list of additional safety items (and
weight) using a "what if" method. If you are carrying out a proper risk
assessment you should always balance this with probability and the
consequences of the risk materialising.
The reason everyone in the UK has to wear hard hats, high vis jackets,
safety boots and safety glasses to change a light bulb is because of
defective risk assessment.
Brian Davies
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of G-IANI
Sent: 18 November 2009 11:56
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list
Frans and all,
Some comments on your safety improvement list
1) Safety belts.
Do not use types which formulate loops - Agreed
Make modified upper fixing points - Agreed
I am not sure you need the "lengthened and foldable headrest".
2) Fuel systems
- routing outside the cabin (weight penalty none or some) - Agreed in
principal. G-IANI is a Trigear so all the fuel system is in the centre
tunnel
- return line with one-way-valve or emergency off-selector - Sounds a
good idea, I will talk to LAA about this
- do not use original glass fuel filters - They have there limitation
but are acceptable if they are accessible and can be monitored and
cleaned. Has anyone found a reasonably priced substitute we could
standardise on.
- consider the safety of sight gauge and it=B4s location. - What the
manual recommends is not good. Of the variations that builders have
done which is the best compromise in terms of safety and functionality?
- have a fuel warning /gauge/pressure gauge /computer - Agreed I
would not fly G-IANI without it
3) Doors
- use unintentioned opening guards and secure them with pip-pins to
levers - In the UK the LAA do not approve this. It is a value
judgement on the risks involved.
- install serial connected micro switches w warning lights behind
shoot bolts. - OK but, as Karl said, they can lead to a false sense of
security. A manual check is essential
4) Cowlings
- do not make those little oil/water check doors - so you have to take
whole upper cowling away and see and check same time much much more
(weight penalty none, use cam locks or equal - so it is pleasure to open
so often you like - I do it every 5 flight hrs)
I have Southco fasteners on my cowl. They are a lot of work to fit
but do make removing the cowl a lot easier. I still think you need the
oil/water check doors for doing the daily "A" check.
5) Electrics
- use two serial connected master switches; so called panel mstr
leaves juice for trim, stall warner, charging for emergency batteries,
clocks, burglar alarms, horns, convenience lights AND an engine starter
- total master cuts everything (weight penalty none, normally my total
master is always on, I close it only during longs stays over two weeks
or just before possible crash I wish, panel mstr switch uses light
weight 40A relay which uses only few milliamperes, total mstr switch is
mechanical with "a key" and uses 0 amperes)
That is essentially how G-IANI is set up1. Both my switches are
mechanical
6) Cockpit equipments
- have a carbon monoxide detector - Agreed
- have a Halon fire extinguisher - Agreed it is a requirement in the
UK
- have a personal locater beacon with gps - Agreed
- have a stall warner or AoA indicator - Agreed
7) Outside equipments
- have at least strobes - Agreed. This is something that should be
in the manual
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 280 hours
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
270.14.69/2508 - Release Date: 11/18/09 07:50:00
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. |
Hi Ira,
Valid points, but I am not proposing any structural modifications whatsoever
- just simply making the *existing* hinge pins removable (tho still captured
for normal use) and pulling them out of the hinges in an emergency via thin
cables attached to an 'emergency' hanle which would be recessed and
ornamentally covered to avoid inadvertently pulling it (during one of those
"what's that" passenger mements).
Shouldn't weigh more than a few 10s of grams either. Well worth the
capability to exit when upside down.
...but thinking further - you mean I shouldn't plan on flying my long wings
with the doors and engine off? That would have given it a real hang-glider
feel ;-)
Cheers & thx,
Pete
A239
On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 2:56 PM, rampil <ira.rampil@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Re internal quick-release hinges for door
>
>
> Hi Peter,
>
> Are you accounting for the compression/tension of the upper door as an
> important structural member of the fuselage. It is my recollection that
> the upper hinges and door frame are structural, not ornamental. I have
> not done a FEA of the Europa but just looking suggests that the cockpit
> roof and door members are in tension holding the fuselage from folding
> down during flight.
>
> Before committing to a change in aircraft structure, I'd really suggest
> that you check with Andy, Dave, or Bud.
>
> Good Luck,
>
> Ira
>
> --------
> Ira N224XS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273589#273589
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Safety improvement list |
On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: G-IANI
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 1:56 PM
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list
>
> Make modified upper fixing points - Agreed
>
> I am not sure you need the "lengthened and foldable headrest".
>
> That is an alternative if the original upper fixing point is still
> going to be there. That mod is possible do afterwards. It is on my
> list. With lenghtened headrest the safety belts do not compress your
> spinal - they are coming from up. It is better to be also foldable -
> so it does not restrict reaching back seat. I do not remember whos
> idea this was but "he" has good pics of it.
>
Raimo...I think I'm the culprit...it does everything you say, and I
tested mine to 15 G's, assuming 100 # upper body weight.
The stress loads all go back to the original hardpoint at the back of
the stock seat back/headrest. Pixs below are self explanatory.
Fred
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Safety improvement list |
G-IANI wrote:
> Ideally the return pipe should be a single piece from end to end. So the
> high risk of leakage is at the end connections (the pipe being severed mid
> cockpit is, even in an accident, possible but very unlikely if properly
> routed).
I see your reasoning. But why then should we have the possibility to
close the main fuel line TO the engine? If it is a 912(S) it should also
be of one piece, and the end at the engine is also higher than the tank.
Reasoning should be consequent: if there is a fuel close off valve, all
exits from the tank should be closed.
Furthermore, I doubt that the fuel line will remain intact by a serious
crash landing. There has been at least one occasion (I know off) where
the front of the airplane broke off, taking the engine with it.
Occupants survived without injuries. Aluminium pipes will break in such
a situation, and rubber lines will tear apart. In case of a 914, the
entire fuel tank will drain via the broken return line.
> By fitting a one way valve, this suggests that the unwanted flow is coming
> from the tank. The engine end (with the restrictor in it) is higher than the
> tank so fuel would not flow from the line if disconnected.
Only if properly "disconnected". In a crash, it is highly doubtful that
the line will be disconnected at the very end, and remain higher than
the tank.
Given the fact that a one way valve will not add significant weight,
maintenance, or failure points, I think it is a worthwile safety feature.
Frans
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. |
Karl Heindl wrote:
> Pete,
>
> A very nice idea. When you get it done, I would like to copy it. An
> individual quick release on each hinge would be adequate for me.
Count me in as well.
Frans
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. |
rampil wrote:
> Are you accounting for the compression/tension of the upper door as an
> important structural member of the fuselage. It is my recollection that
> the upper hinges and door frame are structural, not ornamental.
I think I have read somewhere that the Europa was intended to be
"convertible", i.e. that it should be possible to fly it without doors.
Ok, nobody seems to like it, but the design is there. Apart from that, I
highy doubt that the door could serve as a structural member given the
fact that the hinges are very weak.
Frans
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Safety improvement list |
Brian Davies wrote:
> In the UK, homebuilts are daylight VFR only. I have never spotted an
> aircraft in daylight by seeing its strobes. I dont think they are an
> essential safety feature.
I have spotted several aircraft because they turned in such a way that
they reflected the sunshine for a short moment. Not so many planes
because of their strobes that I remember, but few airplanes have them
(switched on). Still, while looking for traffic in a circuit, I have
found the planes much easier when they had strobes.
And then, there are strobes and strobes... There are quite a lot of
pretty useless strobes. Cessna's, with their weak single flash every few
seconds. So we have installed very strong strobes, feeding the three
bulbs with the max they can handle in a double flash pattern, and even
in bright daylight they are sore to the eye. The very efficient power
supply draws 5 amps, anything less would not be visible enough. We feed
30 Watts to the tail strobe, and 16 Watts to each wing tip.
Frans
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling with no access doors |
Raimo Toivio wrote:
> A good pilot follow (his) rules always - also when hurry and a storm is coming.
> If he has not time enough - he will cancel the planned flight.
> A bad pilot does not and the easily openable access doors do not help.
> She /he will skipp also them. That is so simple.
Ok, you are right.
Well, I should have started this topic earlier. I now have these silly
access doors, and should have invested the time to make them instead in
making the entire cowling on a hinge. The latter I can do, but to get
rid of the doors is more difficult... :-(
Frans
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling with no access doors |
On Nov 18, 2009, at 11:03 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
> She also with her easily removable access doorless cowling is cute
> like a virgin, isnt she? ; ~~ ))
Very cute...and I'm making my cowls from Alex's molds to house my
mighty Subaru which I should have in about 10 days.
I notice your NACA inlet...I've been thinking of doing the same thing
to provide combustion air...the air filter will be just about dead
center below where your inlet is...but I'm scratching my head on how
to construct air box / inlet interface w/ the upper cowl being
removable.
For what purpose is your NACA inlet?
Fred
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Safety improvement list |
Raimo Toivio wrote:
> Thanks Ian,
>
> - do not use original glass fuel filters They have there
> limitation but are acceptable if they are accessible and can be
> monitored and cleaned. Has anyone found a reasonably priced
> substitute we could standardise on.
>
> *I have. It is an original Rotax fuel filter. Goes direct instead
> of Europa suplied Profuel filter. It is cheap, one piece and no
> glass at all, only plastic, no separate parts, cannot assemble
> wrong manner (because undismountable), unbreakable and when used
> throw away it. I change them avery annual = every 50 hrs.*
>
> Raimo OH-XRT from Finland
>
> **
>
Trouble with any fixed in line filter is you cannot check it without
disturbing the fuel lines so the rubber hose gets eroded every time it
is removed.
It is also possible to block a filter in one event by pouring dirty fuel
into the tank. (especially if the Purolator is installed back to front :-( )
I think the only acceptable filter is an Andair gascolator. Easy to
check every time by draining a little fuel from the bowl. Won't allow
water through either.
I know we never have trouble with our cars but they either have a very
large filter (with a water drain) and they very rarely get filled up out
in the field miles from anywhere using someone else's scruffy old Jerry can.
Graham
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