---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 11/18/09: 32 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:16 AM - What's My Contribution Used For? (Matt Dralle) 1. 02:19 AM - Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Raimo Toivio) 2. 03:43 AM - Cowling with no access doors (Raimo Toivio) 3. 03:58 AM - Re: Safety improvement list (G-IANI) 4. 05:04 AM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (David Conrad) 5. 05:05 AM - Re: Safety improvement list (Peter Zutrauen) 6. 07:09 AM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (rampil) 7. 07:14 AM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Karl Heindl) 8. 07:29 AM - Re: Safety improvement list (Brian Davies) 9. 07:47 AM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Peter Zutrauen) 10. 07:53 AM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Pete Lawless) 11. 07:57 AM - Cowling with no access doors (Fred Klein) 12. 08:26 AM - Re: Safety improvement list (G-IANI) 13. 08:49 AM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Karl Heindl) 14. 09:33 AM - Re: Safety improvement list (david miller) 15. 09:45 AM - Re: Safety improvement list (Raimo Toivio) 16. 10:12 AM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Raimo Toivio) 17. 10:25 AM - Re: Safety improvement list (Raimo Toivio) 18. 11:16 AM - Re: Cowling with no access doors (Raimo Toivio) 19. 11:24 AM - Re: Safety improvement list (Raimo Toivio) 20. 11:33 AM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Raimo Toivio) 21. 11:57 AM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (rampil) 22. 12:03 PM - Re: Safety improvement list (Tim Ward) 23. 02:17 PM - Re: Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Peter Zutrauen) 24. 02:43 PM - Re: Safety improvement list (Fred Klein) 25. 02:45 PM - Re: Safety improvement list (Frans Veldman) 26. 02:50 PM - Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Frans Veldman) 27. 02:50 PM - Re: Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. (Frans Veldman) 28. 03:20 PM - Re: Safety improvement list (Frans Veldman) 29. 03:20 PM - Re: Cowling with no access doors (Frans Veldman) 30. 03:20 PM - Re: Cowling with no access doors (Fred Klein) 31. 04:24 PM - Re: Safety improvement list (Graham Singleton) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:16:33 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: What's My Contribution Used For? Dear Listers, Some have asked, "What's my Contribution used for?" and that's a good question. Here are just a few examples of what your direct List support enables. It provides for the very expensive, commercial-grade T1 Internet connection used on the List insuring maximum performance and minimal contention when accessing List services. It pays for the regular system hardware and software upgrades enabling the highest performance possible for services such as the Archive Search Engine, List Browser, and Forums. It pays for narly 20 years (yeah, I really said *20* years) worth of online archive data available for instant random search and access. And, it offsets the many hours spent writing, developing, and maintaining the custom applications that power this List Service such as the List Browse, Search Engine, Forums, and Wiki. But most importantly, your List Contribution enables a forum where you and your peers can communicate freely in an environment that is free from moderation, censorship, advertising, commercialism, SPAM, and computer viruses. How many places on the Internet can you make all those statements these days? It is YOUR CONTRIBUTION that directly enables these many aspects of these valuable List services. Please support it today with your List Contribution. Its one of the best investments you can make in your Sport... List Contribution Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you for your support! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:19:55 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. "Are you serious ? In an accident, how would a potential rescuer get the doors open ?" Karl, I understand your point but I have thought it very carefully and I am very serious and happy with my always locked doors when inflight (I have pip-pins both side)! The risks of the unlocked doors when inflight are heavier than the risks of the pip-pin locked doors when crash landed. Consider this: 1) An unthinking passenger can easily lift the lever and ask "what is this?". Shit happens, really. The pip pin prevents accidents like this - a pilot has more time to react and say no no no. The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a retarder! 2) Pilots=B4s or co-pilot=B4s sleeve could easily lift the lever by accident - pip pin prevents this. The guard alone is good but not 100% guaranteed. The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a safety catch. 3) Passenger side=B4s pip-pin is a good, simple and effective door lock when grounded. The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be just a lock. 4) I have in my POH: before emergency landing remove door pip-pins. 5) In the case of emergency landing and the doors are still locked: do you really think it is difficult to open the door? Just kick the window and it is gone, surely! For "potential rescuer" it is not a problem at all! It is the smallest worry in this case! Those pip-pins are clearly visible and understandable. BTW both of the C172=B4s doors are inflight lockable. I know some people lock them and some do not. I locked them always when flying but that was for personal comfort only. When locked the lever was levelled and the armrest was usable. I am not sure what do they say in Cessnas POH - my guess is "do open the door locks before landing". Karl, do you accept my (serious) points? Would you like to see the pick of my pip-pin equipped door lever guards? Raimo OH-XRT ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:43:24 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Europa-List: Cowling with no access doors > 4) Cowlings > - do not make those little oil/water check doors - so you have to take whole upper cowling away and see and check same time much much more (weight penalty none, use cam locks or equal - so it is pleasure to open so often you like - I do it every 5 flight hrs) "This is radical, but a good point actually. Although it may invite you to not bother with checking the water and oil if you are in a hurry to go home. I know, you should never fall into this trap, but we are all human and it is temptive to skip checks that take too long if bad weather is approaching and you need to leave the airport." Frans, Oh yes I know I am a little bit radical, criminal and provoking. A good pilot follow (his) rules always - also when hurry and a storm is coming. If he has not time enough - he will cancel the planned flight. A bad pilot does not and the easily openable access doors do not help. She /he will skipp also them. That is so simple. One sad example from Finland during last summer: a Piper pilot was hurry and he does not even walk around his plane. Soon after take off he crashed - followed one fatal. Why? There was still hanging a concrete ground weight from his tail wheel. They say he was very experienced old school pilot. Maybe he checked the oil... IMHO, checking oil (and water) before every flight is an old habit coming from history (and checking oil is still necessary when Lyco/Conti engines). With modern engines like Rotax I think (again IMHO) it is not necessary to check before EVERY flight. I check them only after every 5 hours. That means sometimes once a day but sometimes once a month. Between oil change period it does not loose or burn oil at all - so is water also. If there is a bad leak - it is seenable easily outside the cowlings. Modern car engines can run 30000 km or more from oil change to oil change and the oil level is always same. That means about an average let is say 400 hours or more. How often we check water and oil in our cars? Our fathers or granfas checked them every day. It was a must. It is much more important (again IMHO) to find an evidence of any leaks like exhaust. To check are the carbs still fixed. To correct any loose items. How are all the pipes, wires, hoses and so. That is impossible via access doors. That is why they are useless. When you have not them, you have to open the upper cowling and you have a good possibility to check more. I am sure that is a good enhancement for safety. And much more easier and fun if the cowling is easily removable. I have one friend who hasa plane with cowling with hinges and gas pumps to keep it open. He press the button in the cockpit and it is open! Other benefits when no access doors in the cowling: 1) looks better 2) more streamlined and a bit faster 3) more lightweight and a bit simpler 4 faster to build 5 no risk to loose the access door during flight (that could also be a fatal case - it has happened) I am sure some of you - not Frans - would like to execute me now. That is normal. Welcome. Raimo OH-XRT ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:58:18 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list Frans and all, Some comments on your safety improvement list 1) Safety belts. Do not use types which formulate loops - Agreed Make modified upper fixing points - Agreed I am not sure you need the "lengthened and foldable headrest". 2) Fuel systems - routing outside the cabin (weight penalty none or some) - Agreed in principal. G-IANI is a Trigear so all the fuel system is in the centre tunnel - return line with one-way-valve or emergency off-selector - Sounds a good idea, I will talk to LAA about this - do not use original glass fuel filters ' They have there limitation but are acceptable if they are accessible and can be monitored and cleaned. Has anyone found a reasonably priced substitute we could standardise on. - consider the safety of sight gauge and it=B4s location. ' What the manual recommends is not good. Of the variations that builders have done which is the best compromise in terms of safety and functionality? - have a fuel warning /gauge/pressure gauge /computer - Agreed I would not fly G-IANI without it 3) Doors - use unintentioned opening guards and secure them with pip-pins to levers - In the UK the LAA do not approve this. It is a value judgement on the risks involved. - install serial connected micro switches w warning lights behind shoot bolts. - OK but, as Karl said, they can lead to a false sense of security. A manual check is essential 4) Cowlings - do not make those little oil/water check doors - so you have to take whole upper cowling away and see and check same time much much more (weight penalty none, use cam locks or equal - so it is pleasure to open so often you like - I do it every 5 flight hrs) I have Southco fasteners on my cowl. They are a lot of work to fit but do make removing the cowl a lot easier. I still think you need the oil/water check doors for doing the daily =93A=94 check. 5) Electrics - use two serial connected master switches; so called panel mstr leaves juice for trim, stall warner, charging for emergency batteries, clocks, burglar alarms, horns, convenience lights AND an engine starter - total master cuts everything (weight penalty none, normally my total master is always on, I close it only during longs stays over two weeks or just before possible crash I wish, panel mstr switch uses light weight 40A relay which uses only few milliamperes, total mstr switch is mechanical with "a key" and uses 0 amperes) That is essentially how G-IANI is set up1. Both my switches are mechanical 6) Cockpit equipments - have a carbon monoxide detector - Agreed - have a Halon fire extinguisher ' Agreed it is a requirement in the UK - have a personal locater beacon with gps - Agreed - have a stall warner or AoA indicator - Agreed 7) Outside equipments - have at least strobes - Agreed. This is something that should be in the manual Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 280 hours Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:02 AM PST US From: David Conrad Subject: Re: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. Gentlemen, I don't want to add to controversy, but... I have independently come to the conclusion of using pip pins... actually t he little red spring loaded ones from the Andair fuel selectors. Loosing a door in flight is Bad - Bad - Bad! External Placcards describing how to open the door, and glider window vents allow access to the internal locking mechanism when on the ground.- Glid ers don't have external door handles... there is no reason our Europas need external door handles either. Dave Conrad A078, Monowheel 914, short and long wings Building --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Raimo Toivio wrote: From: Raimo Toivio Subject: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. =0A=0A =0A#yiv442352437 hmmessage P {=0APADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px; PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;}=0A#yiv442352437 {=0AFONT-SI ZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Verdana;}=0A=0A=0A"Are you serious ? In an accident, ho w would a potential rescuer get the =0Adoors open ?" =0AKarl,=0A-=0AI understand your point but I have thought it very =0Acare fully and I am very serious and happy with my always locked doors when =0Ai nflight (I have pip-pins both side)!=0A-=0AThe risks of the unlocked door s-when =0Ainflight-are heavier than the risks of the pip-pin locked doo rs when crash =0Alanded.=0A-=0AConsider this:=0A-=0A1)-An unthinking passenger-can easily lift the =0Alever and ask "what is this?". Shit happ ens, really.=0AThe pip pin prevents accidents like this --a =0Apilot-ha s more time to react and say no no no.=0AThe function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a =0Aretarder!=0A-=0A2) Pilots=B4s or co-pilot=B4s sleeve could easily lift the =0Alever by accident - pip pin prevents this.=0AThe guard alone is good but not 100% guaranteed. The =0Afunction of the pip-pin is in this case to be a safety catch.=0A-=0A3) Passenger side=B4s pip-pi n is a good, simple and =0Aeffective door lock when grounded.=0AThe functio n of the pip-pin is in this case to be just a =0Alock.=0A-=0A4) I have in my POH: before emergency landing remove =0Adoor pip-pins.=0A-=0A5) In th e case of emergency landing and the doors are =0Astill locked: do you reall y think it is difficult to open the door? Just kick =0Athe window and it is gone, surely! For "potential rescuer" it is not a problem =0Aat all! It is the smallest worry in this case! Those pip-pins are clearly =0Avisible and understandable.=0A-=0ABTW-both of the C172=B4s--doors-are =0Ainf light lockable. I know some people-lock them and some do not. I locked =0Athem always when flying but that was for personal comfort only. When loc ked the =0Alever was levelled and the armrest was usable. I am not sure wha t do they say in =0ACessnas POH - my guess is "do open the door locks befor e landing".=0A-=0AKarl, do you accept my (serious) points? =0A-=0AWould you like to see the pick of my pip-pin equipped =0Adoor lever guards?=0A =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:06 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Safety improvement list From: Peter Zutrauen "4) Cowlings - do not make those little oil/water check doors - so you have to take whol e upper cowling away and see and check same time much much more (weight penalty none, use cam locks or equal - so it is pleasure to open so often you like - I do it every 5 flight hrs) I have Southco fasteners on my cowl. They are a lot of work to fit but do make removing the cowl a lot easier. I still think you need the oil/water check doors for doing the daily =93A=94 check." .... or maybe use the piano hinge method, with a removable hing rod on eac h side (a-la RV's)? Leaving just the top with fasteners. Cheers, Pete A239 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:37 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. From: "rampil" "Loss of door in flight is Bad Bad Bad" Just to throw a few facts into the mix: There are a number of cases now, including the Florida factory demonstrator. It is embarrassing, It is expensive, It creates a lot of air noise. It does not impact flight characteristics. The door has not yet ever hit the empennage. The plane has been flown intentionally without doors. Door loss is considered an incident, not accident and so are not reported to the NTSB. The factory design is better than you give credit for. In many countries experimental aircraft builders have freedom to experiment. There are three rules worth considering: 1: Everything is a tradeoff, a balance of risk and benefit. 2: There are always unintended consequences. 3:(my favorite, direct from B. Rutan): When considering a new device for an aircraft, place the device in your palm, then accelerate, said device skyward greater than 1g. If the device returns to earth, do not install it, it is clearly too heavy! -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273509#273509 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:48 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. Raimo=2C Yes=2C I accept your reasoning=2C and I am surprised to read that Cessnas h ave internal locks. Their checklists probably say to not have them locked o n takeoff and landing. My PFA inspector would not have approved the mod=2C although=2C my passenger door does have a pip pin lock for locking on the g round only. Of course=2C if I were to end up inverted=2C which is very like ly in a trigear=2C in an otherwise successful emergency landing=2C it would n't make any difference whether doors were locked or not=2C as the doors co uldn't be opened anyway=2C except with brute force. I keep meaning to get o ne of those emergency exit hammers just for that nightmare situation=2C and to reroute the fuel vent to the bottom of the fuselage. Regarding CO alarms=2C I can only recommend one which shows any presence of the gas in ppm=2C and with a high pitched alarm when a safe figure and/or duration is exceeded. You can get them in any hardware store. I had a case not long ago=2C when a loose exhaust pipe caused some carbon m onoxide to leak into the cabin. On the other hand=2C it also confirmed that fumes which sometimes enter via the flap slots on landing did not register on the instrument. Karl From: raimo.toivio@rwm.fi Subject: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. "Are you serious ? In an accident=2C how would a potential rescuer get the doors open ?" Karl=2C I understand your point but I have thought it very carefully and I am very serious and happy with my always locked doors when inflight (I have pip-pin s both side)! The risks of the unlocked doors when inflight are heavier than the risks of the pip-pin locked doors when crash landed. Consider this: 1) An unthinking passenger can easily lift the lever and ask "what is this? ". Shit happens=2C really. The pip pin prevents accidents like this - a pilot has more time to react a nd say no no no. The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a retarder! 2) Pilots=B4s or co-pilot=B4s sleeve could easily lift the lever by acciden t - pip pin prevents this. The guard alone is good but not 100% guaranteed. The function of the pip-pi n is in this case to be a safety catch. 3) Passenger side=B4s pip-pin is a good=2C simple and effective door lock w hen grounded. The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be just a lock. 4) I have in my POH: before emergency landing remove door pip-pins. 5) In the case of emergency landing and the doors are still locked: do you really think it is difficult to open the door? Just kick the window and it is gone=2C surely! For "potential rescuer" it is not a problem at all! It i s the smallest worry in this case! Those pip-pins are clearly visible and u nderstandable. BTW both of the C172=B4s doors are inflight lockable. I know some people l ock them and some do not. I locked them always when flying but that was for personal comfort only. When locked the lever was levelled and the armrest was usable. I am not sure what do they say in Cessnas POH - my guess is "do open the door locks before landing". Karl=2C do you accept my (serious) points? Would you like to see the pick of my pip-pin equipped door lever guards? Raimo OH-XRT ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:12 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list In the UK, homebuilts are daylight VFR only. I have never spotted an aircraft in daylight by seeing its strobes. I dont think they are an essential safety feature. Regarding the check valve in the fuel return line, has there ever been an incident/accident where the lack of one has caused a fire? It is very easy to add a long list of additional safety items (and weight) using a "what if" method. If you are carrying out a proper risk assessment you should always balance this with probability and the consequences of the risk materialising. The reason everyone in the UK has to wear hard hats, high vis jackets, safety boots and safety glasses to change a light bulb is because of defective risk assessment. Brian Davies _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of G-IANI Sent: 18 November 2009 11:56 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list Frans and all, Some comments on your safety improvement list 1) Safety belts. Do not use types which formulate loops - Agreed Make modified upper fixing points - Agreed I am not sure you need the "lengthened and foldable headrest". 2) Fuel systems - routing outside the cabin (weight penalty none or some) - Agreed in principal. G-IANI is a Trigear so all the fuel system is in the centre tunnel - return line with one-way-valve or emergency off-selector - Sounds a good idea, I will talk to LAA about this - do not use original glass fuel filters ' They have there limitation but are acceptable if they are accessible and can be monitored and cleaned. Has anyone found a reasonably priced substitute we could standardise on. - consider the safety of sight gauge and it=B4s location. ' What the manual recommends is not good. Of the variations that builders have done which is the best compromise in terms of safety and functionality? - have a fuel warning /gauge/pressure gauge /computer - Agreed I would not fly G-IANI without it 3) Doors - use unintentioned opening guards and secure them with pip-pins to levers - In the UK the LAA do not approve this. It is a value judgement on the risks involved. - install serial connected micro switches w warning lights behind shoot bolts. - OK but, as Karl said, they can lead to a false sense of security. A manual check is essential 4) Cowlings - do not make those little oil/water check doors - so you have to take whole upper cowling away and see and check same time much much more (weight penalty none, use cam locks or equal - so it is pleasure to open so often you like - I do it every 5 flight hrs) I have Southco fasteners on my cowl. They are a lot of work to fit but do make removing the cowl a lot easier. I still think you need the oil/water check doors for doing the daily =93A=94 check. 5) Electrics - use two serial connected master switches; so called panel mstr leaves juice for trim, stall warner, charging for emergency batteries, clocks, burglar alarms, horns, convenience lights AND an engine starter - total master cuts everything (weight penalty none, normally my total master is always on, I close it only during longs stays over two weeks or just before possible crash I wish, panel mstr switch uses light weight 40A relay which uses only few milliamperes, total mstr switch is mechanical with "a key" and uses 0 amperes) That is essentially how G-IANI is set up1. Both my switches are mechanical 6) Cockpit equipments - have a carbon monoxide detector - Agreed - have a Halon fire extinguisher ' Agreed it is a requirement in the UK - have a personal locater beacon with gps - Agreed - have a stall warner or AoA indicator - Agreed 7) Outside equipments - have at least strobes - Agreed. This is something that should be in the manual Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 280 hours Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com 11/18/09 07:50:00 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:53 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. From: Peter Zutrauen "Of course, if I were to end up inverted, which is very likely in a trigear, in an otherwise successful emergency landing, it wouldn't make any difference whether doors were locked or not, as the doors couldn't be opened anyway, except with brute force. I keep meaning to get one of those emergency exit hammers just for that nightmare situation" FWIW, I am planning on installing releasable-hinge pins for the doors..... all attached to a single emergency pull handle via thin/light cables, which will simply pull all the hinge pins out, allowing for the door to more easily pushed out sideways (the strut would still attach them somewhat). Cheers, Pete A239 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:57 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. Hi Just checked the 172R manual from Feb 2000. The internal door handle has 3 positions ' open, close and lock. The check list calls for doors to be locked prior to flight. The forced lading check list calls for =91doors to be unlatched prior to touch down=92. It all adds an interesting extra task at 100 feet after take off when it all goes quiet! Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: 18 November 2009 15:13 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. Raimo, Yes, I accept your reasoning, and I am surprised to read that Cessnas have internal locks. Their checklists probably say to not have them locked on takeoff and landing. My PFA inspector would not have approved the mod, although, my passenger door does have a pip pin lock for locking on the ground only. Of course, if I were to end up inverted, which is very likely in a trigear, in an otherwise successful emergency landing, it wouldn't make any difference whether doors were locked or not, as the doors couldn't be opened anyway, except with brute force. I keep meaning to get one of those emergency exit hammers just for that nightmare situation, and to reroute the fuel vent to the bottom of the fuselage. Regarding CO alarms, I can only recommend one which shows any presence of the gas in ppm, and with a high pitched alarm when a safe figure and/or duration is exceeded. You can get them in any hardware store. I had a case not long ago, when a loose exhaust pipe caused some carbon monoxide to leak into the cabin. On the other hand, it also confirmed that fumes which sometimes enter via the flap slots on landing did not register on the instrument. Karl _____ From: raimo.toivio@rwm.fi Subject: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. "Are you serious ? In an accident, how would a potential rescuer get the doors open ?" Karl, I understand your point but I have thought it very carefully and I am very serious and happy with my always locked doors when inflight (I have pip-pins both side)! The risks of the unlocked doors when inflight are heavier than the risks of the pip-pin locked doors when crash landed. Consider this: 1) An unthinking passenger can easily lift the lever and ask "what is this?". Shit happens, really. The pip pin prevents accidents like this - a pilot has more time to react and say no no no. The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a retarder! 2) Pilots=B4s or co-pilot=B4s sleeve could easily lift the lever by accident - pip pin prevents this. The guard alone is good but not 100% guaranteed. The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a safety catch. 3) Passenger side=B4s pip-pin is a good, simple and effective door lock when grounded. The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be just a lock. 4) I have in my POH: before emergency landing remove door pip-pins. 5) In the case of emergency landing and the doors are still locked: do you really think it is difficult to open the door? Just kick the window and it is gone, surely! For "potential rescuer" it is not a problem at all! It is the smallest worry in this case! Those pip-pins are clearly visible and understandable. BTW both of the C172=B4s doors are inflight lockable. I know some people lock them and some do not. I locked them always when flying but that was for personal comfort only. When locked the lever was levelled and the armrest was usable. I am not sure what do they say in Cessnas POH - my guess is "do open the door locks before landing". Karl, do you accept my (serious) points? Would you like to see the pick of my pip-pin equipped door lever guards? Raimo OH-XRT lectric.com /">www.buildersbooks.com ebuilthelp.com ww.matronics.com/contribution >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ronics.com -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Houxou, and is believed to be clean. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 11/17/09 19:26:00 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:42 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Europa-List: Cowling with no access doors On Nov 18, 2009, at 3:42 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote: > And much more easier and fun if the cowling is easily removable. I > have one friend who hasa plane with cowling with hinges and gas > pumps to keep it open. Alex Bowman hinges his top cowl...wouldn't have it any other way... Fred ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:00 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list - return line with one-way-valve or emergency off-selector . I have talked to Andy Draper on this topic. My analysis is as follows:- Ideally the return pipe should be a single piece from end to end. So the high risk of leakage is at the end connections (the pipe being severed mid cockpit is, even in an accident, possible but very unlikely if properly routed). By fitting a one way valve, this suggests that the unwanted flow is coming from the tank. The engine end (with the restrictor in it) is higher than the tank so fuel would not flow from the line if disconnected. If the aircraft is inverted then fuel will not flow from the tank. So the only failure mode of concern is disconnection at the tank end. If the valve is there it is at least 50% likely that the disconnection would be between tank and valve, so the valve does not really make things much safer. So I conclude that fitting a valve is superficially a good idea, but when you analyse it I can't see a case for fitting a one-way valve. Having an emergency hammer and the fuel vent(s) at the bottom of the aircraft are good ideas I have implemented. Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 280 hours Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com $B!!(B _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Davies Sent: 18 November 2009 15:28 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list In the UK, homebuilts are daylight VFR only. I have never spotted an aircraft in daylight by seeing its strobes. I dont think they are an essential safety feature. Regarding the check valve in the fuel return line, has there ever been an incident/accident where the lack of one has caused a fire? It is very easy to add a long list of additional safety items (and weight) using a "what if" method. If you are carrying out a proper risk assessment you should always balance this with probability and the consequences of the risk materialising. The reason everyone in the UK has to wear hard hats, high vis jackets, safety boots and safety glasses to change a light bulb is because of defective risk assessment. Brian Davies _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of G-IANI Sent: 18 November 2009 11:56 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list Frans and all, Some comments on your safety improvement list 1) Safety belts. Do not use types which formulate loops - Agreed Make modified upper fixing points - Agreed I am not sure you need the "lengthened and foldable headrest". 2) Fuel systems - routing outside the cabin (weight penalty none or some) - Agreed in principal. G-IANI is a Trigear so all the fuel system is in the centre tunnel - return line with one-way-valve or emergency off-selector - Sounds a good idea, I will talk to LAA about this - do not use original glass fuel filters - They have there limitation but are acceptable if they are accessible and can be monitored and cleaned. Has anyone found a reasonably priced substitute we could standardise on. - consider the safety of sight gauge and it$B!-(Bs location. - What the manual recommends is not good. Of the variations that builders have done which is the best compromise in terms of safety and functionality? - have a fuel warning /gauge/pressure gauge /computer - Agreed I would not fly G-IANI without it 3) Doors - use unintentioned opening guards and secure them with pip-pins to levers - In the UK the LAA do not approve this. It is a value judgement on the risks involved. - install serial connected micro switches w warning lights behind shoot bolts. - OK but, as Karl said, they can lead to a false sense of security. A manual check is essential 4) Cowlings - do not make those little oil/water check doors - so you have to take whole upper cowling away and see and check same time much much more (weight penalty none, use cam locks or equal - so it is pleasure to open so often you like - I do it every 5 flight hrs) I have Southco fasteners on my cowl. They are a lot of work to fit but do make removing the cowl a lot easier. I still think you need the oil/water check doors for doing the daily $B!H(BA$B!I(B check. 5) Electrics - use two serial connected master switches; so called panel mstr leaves juice for trim, stall warner, charging for emergency batteries, clocks, burglar alarms, horns, convenience lights AND an engine starter - total master cuts everything (weight penalty none, normally my total master is always on, I close it only during longs stays over two weeks or just before possible crash I wish, panel mstr switch uses light weight 40A relay which uses only few milliamperes, total mstr switch is mechanical with "a key" and uses 0 amperes) That is essentially how G-IANI is set up1. Both my switches are mechanical 6) Cockpit equipments - have a carbon monoxide detector - Agreed - have a Halon fire extinguisher - Agreed it is a requirement in the UK - have a personal locater beacon with gps - Agreed - have a stall warner or AoA indicator - Agreed 7) Outside equipments - have at least strobes - Agreed. This is something that should be in the manual Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 280 hours Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http ://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com 270.14.69/2508 - Release Date: 11/18/09 07:50:00 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:22 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. FWIW=2C I am planning on installing releasable-hinge pins for the doors..... all a ttached to a single emergency pull handle via thin/light cables=2C which wi ll simply pull all the hinge pins out=2C allowing for the door to more easi ly pushed out sideways (the strut would still attach them somewhat). Pete=2C A very nice idea. When you get it done=2C I would like to copy it. An indiv idual quick release on each hinge would be adequate for me. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:55 AM PST US From: david miller Subject: Re: Europa-List: Safety improvement list Jan Volcic's aircraft had the sight gauge in the original position by the panel, It may well have contributed to the post crash fire > Locating the gauge between the seats seems like a better idea, eliminating it altogether would perhaps be better yet, if regulations allow. With a 912S, I've often wondered whether it is better not to use the electric fuel pump during take off and landing, seems to me that the engine is more likely to suffer a mechanical problem than the mechanical fuel pump, and in the event of an emergency landing, I would prefer not to have fuel pumping - chances are I would forget to turn the pump off. Dave, C-FBZI, Tri-Gear, 175 hours > > > 2) Fuel systems > > > - consider the safety of sight gauge and it=B4s location. ' What the > manual recommends is not good. Of the variations that builders > have done which is the best compromise in terms of safety and > functionality? > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:34 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Safety improvement list Thanks Ian, you seems to agree almost everything in my list. Check my notice below. ----- Original Message ----- From: G-IANI To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 1:56 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list Make modified upper fixing points - Agreed I am not sure you need the "lengthened and foldable headrest". That is an alternative if the original upper fixing point is still going to be there. That mod is possible do afterwards. It is on my list. With lenghtened headrest the safety belts do not compress your spinal - they are coming from up. It is better to be also foldable - so it does not restrict reaching back seat. I do not remember whos idea this was but "he" has good pics of it. - do not use original glass fuel filters - They have there limitation but are acceptable if they are accessible and can be monitored and cleaned. Has anyone found a reasonably priced substitute we could standardise on. I have. It is an original Rotax fuel filter. Goes direct instead of Europa suplied Profuel filter. It is cheap, one piece and no glass at all, only plastic, no separate parts, cannot assemble wrong manner (because undismountable), unbreakable and when used throw away it. I change them avery annual = every 50 hrs. Keep it safe, Raimo OH-XRT from Finland ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:20 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. Karl, I checked today Cessna 182 P Skyline=B4s 1976 POH and there on the page 4-5 they say (check list before take off): " doors and windows must be closed and locked". Otherwise there would be no reason for internal lock for both doors. Just wonder that because Cessna=B4s open cannot open totally during flight because of airflow. Once it opened slightly during my flight because it was unlocked. That was a passenger side. It was open a little and there was a cap one or two inches. My passenger - my wife actually - did not like that semi-open-door flight at all. On the page 3-5 (emergency landing instructions) they say "unlock the doors just before touching the ground (!)". Raimo OH-XRT ----- Original Message ----- From: Karl Heindl To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 5:12 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. Raimo, Yes, I accept your reasoning, and I am surprised to read that Cessnas have internal locks. Their checklists probably say to not have them locked on takeoff and landing. My PFA inspector would not have approved the mod, although, my passenger door does have a pip pin lock for locking on the ground only. Of course, if I were to end up inverted, which is very likely in a trigear, in an otherwise successful emergency landing, it wouldn't make any difference whether doors were locked or not, as the doors couldn't be opened anyway, except with brute force. I keep meaning to get one of those emergency exit hammers just for that nightmare situation, and to reroute the fuel vent to the bottom of the fuselage. Regarding CO alarms, I can only recommend one which shows any presence of the gas in ppm, and with a high pitched alarm when a safe figure and/or duration is exceeded. You can get them in any hardware store. I had a case not long ago, when a loose exhaust pipe caused some carbon monoxide to leak into the cabin. On the other hand, it also confirmed that fumes which sometimes enter via the flap slots on landing did not register on the instrument. Karl ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: raimo.toivio@rwm.fi To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:20:53 +0200 "Are you serious ? In an accident, how would a potential rescuer get the doors open ?" Karl, I understand your point but I have thought it very carefully and I am very serious and happy with my always locked doors when inflight (I have pip-pins both side)! The risks of the unlocked doors when inflight are heavier than the risks of the pip-pin locked doors when crash landed. Consider this: 1) An unthinking passenger can easily lift the lever and ask "what is this?". Shit happens, really. The pip pin prevents accidents like this - a pilot has more time to react and say no no no. The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a retarder! 2) Pilots=B4s or co-pilot=B4s sleeve could easily lift the lever by accident - pip pin prevents this. The guard alone is good but not 100% guaranteed. The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a safety catch. 3) Passenger side=B4s pip-pin is a good, simple and effective door lock when grounded. The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be just a lock. 4) I have in my POH: before emergency landing remove door pip-pins. 5) In the case of emergency landing and the doors are still locked: do you really think it is difficult to open the door? Just kick the window and it is gone, surely! For "potential rescuer" it is not a problem at all! It is the smallest worry in this case! Those pip-pins are clearly visible and understandable. BTW both of the C172=B4s doors are inflight lockable. I know some people lock them and some do not. I locked them always when flying but that was for personal comfort only. When locked the lever was levelled and the armrest was usable. I am not sure what do they say in Cessnas POH - my guess is "do open the door locks before landing". Karl, do you accept my (serious) points? Would you like to see the pick of my pip-pin equipped door lever guards? Raimo OH-XRT lectric.com /">www.buildersbooks.com ebuilthelp.com ww.matronics.com/contribution >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ronics.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:02 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Safety improvement list Brian, do you use day time lights in your cars? Can you believe it is in Finland mandatory 24 hrs and those few poor cars without lights are almost invisible. Human eye picks object=B4s with light easily - especially if it is blinking. Strobes do. Sure strobes are an essential safety feature. What more that better! Light coloured planes front of the clouds or dark coloured planes front of the ground are almost invisible without strobes for example. Or Europa during typical English or Finnish rainy autumn... Wearing safety glasses to change a light bulb - that is a good investment for personal health ;) Raimo OH-XRT ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Davies To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 5:28 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list In the UK, homebuilts are daylight VFR only. I have never spotted an aircraft in daylight by seeing its strobes. I dont think they are an essential safety feature. Regarding the check valve in the fuel return line, has there ever been an incident/accident where the lack of one has caused a fire? It is very easy to add a long list of additional safety items (and weight) using a "what if" method. If you are carrying out a proper risk assessment you should always balance this with probability and the consequences of the risk materialising. The reason everyone in the UK has to wear hard hats, high vis jackets, safety boots and safety glasses to change a light bulb is because of defective risk assessment. Brian Davies ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of G-IANI Sent: 18 November 2009 11:56 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list Frans and all, Some comments on your safety improvement list 1) Safety belts. Do not use types which formulate loops - Agreed Make modified upper fixing points - Agreed I am not sure you need the "lengthened and foldable headrest". 2) Fuel systems - routing outside the cabin (weight penalty none or some) - Agreed in principal. G-IANI is a Trigear so all the fuel system is in the centre tunnel - return line with one-way-valve or emergency off-selector - Sounds a good idea, I will talk to LAA about this - do not use original glass fuel filters - They have there limitation but are acceptable if they are accessible and can be monitored and cleaned. Has anyone found a reasonably priced substitute we could standardise on. - consider the safety of sight gauge and it=B4s location. - What the manual recommends is not good. Of the variations that builders have done which is the best compromise in terms of safety and functionality? - have a fuel warning /gauge/pressure gauge /computer - Agreed I would not fly G-IANI without it 3) Doors - use unintentioned opening guards and secure them with pip-pins to levers - In the UK the LAA do not approve this. It is a value judgement on the risks involved. - install serial connected micro switches w warning lights behind shoot bolts. - OK but, as Karl said, they can lead to a false sense of security. A manual check is essential 4) Cowlings - do not make those little oil/water check doors - so you have to take whole upper cowling away and see and check same time much much more (weight penalty none, use cam locks or equal - so it is pleasure to open so often you like - I do it every 5 flight hrs) I have Southco fasteners on my cowl. They are a lot of work to fit but do make removing the cowl a lot easier. I still think you need the oil/water check doors for doing the daily "A" check. 5) Electrics - use two serial connected master switches; so called panel mstr leaves juice for trim, stall warner, charging for emergency batteries, clocks, burglar alarms, horns, convenience lights AND an engine starter - total master cuts everything (weight penalty none, normally my total master is always on, I close it only during longs stays over two weeks or just before possible crash I wish, panel mstr switch uses light weight 40A relay which uses only few milliamperes, total mstr switch is mechanical with "a key" and uses 0 amperes) That is essentially how G-IANI is set up1. Both my switches are mechanical 6) Cockpit equipments - have a carbon monoxide detector - Agreed - have a Halon fire extinguisher - Agreed it is a requirement in the UK - have a personal locater beacon with gps - Agreed - have a stall warner or AoA indicator - Agreed 7) Outside equipments - have at least strobes - Agreed. This is something that should be in the manual Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 280 hours Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com 270.14.69/2508 - Release Date: 11/18/09 07:50:00 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:33 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cowling with no access doors Fred, that is beautiful! And cannot see any access doors...look at mine also, attached a pair of pics: She also with her easily removable access doorless cowling is cute like a virgin, isn=B4t she? ; ~~ )) Raimo OH-XRT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Klein" Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 5:56 PM Subject: Europa-List: Cowling with no access doors > > On Nov 18, 2009, at 3:42 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote: > > > And much more easier and fun if the cowling is easily removable. I > > have one friend who hasa plane with cowling with hinges and gas > > pumps to keep it open. > > Alex Bowman hinges his top cowl...wouldn't have it any other way... > > Fred > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:04 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Safety improvement list Jan, very good points to consider! 1) Fuel sight gauge: during building phase I understood to relocate it between seats. That is not enough. Now, I hate to look at it. Fuel in the cockpit just behind one millimeter thick plastic tube. One day that clear tube is yellowed, agened and bristlened and it will broke and spoil my upholstery or maybe more if happens during flight. It is almost unnecesary item. Fill the tank always full and then you know surely how much you have. During flight have a gauge /alarm /computer...and your brains and a clock! 2) During emergency landing it (an electric fuel pump) must be off. Better to remember to use master switch (2nd level or even 1st level one if you have) so the pump is also off. What about a compromiss: during short take off use an el fuel pump but with long runways do not? Raimo OH-XRT ----- Original Message ----- From: david miller To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 7:42 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Safety improvement list Jan Volcic's aircraft had the sight gauge in the original position by the panel, It may well have contributed to the post crash fire Locating the gauge between the seats seems like a better idea, eliminating it altogether would perhaps be better yet, if regulations allow. With a 912S, I've often wondered whether it is better not to use the electric fuel pump during take off and landing, seems to me that the engine is more likely to suffer a mechanical problem than the mechanical fuel pump, and in the event of an emergency landing, I would prefer not to have fuel pumping - chances are I would forget to turn the pump off. Dave, C-FBZI, Tri-Gear, 175 hours 2) Fuel systems - consider the safety of sight gauge and it=B4s location. ' What the manual recommends is not good. Of the variations that builders have done which is the best compromise in terms of safety and functionality? href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?Europa-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:30 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. All, so many of you have asked me to show my door security pip-pins that here they are. Pip-pin connects the guard and the lever together. Pip-pin has a safety lanyard. Placards: 1) "do not open during flight" (both sides) 2) "open" with an arrow (both sides) 3) "Warning! Only the pilot is allowed to open - close - lock the door" (passenger side only!). Last notice is because of security and partly because I do not like an idea to repair the internal parts of the door after somebody has locked it using unnecessary extra force. They work fine and I feel good with them. I could not imagine possibility to fly without them. Nice to be with you - Mr. Dave Conrad - in a same club flying with "locked" eh retarded doors... Raimo OH-XRT (flying with pip-pinned doors) ----- Original Message ----- From: David Conrad To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 2:56 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. Gentlemen, I don't want to add to controversy, but... I have independently come to the conclusion of using pip pins... actually the little red spring loaded ones from the Andair fuel selectors. Loosing a door in flight is Bad - Bad - Bad! External Placcards describing how to open the door, and glider window vents allow access to the internal locking mechanism when on the ground. Gliders don't have external door handles... there is no reason our Europas need external door handles either. Dave Conrad A078, Monowheel 914, short and long wings Building --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Raimo Toivio wrote: From: Raimo Toivio Subject: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. To: europa-list@matronics.com Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 5:20 AM "Are you serious ? In an accident, how would a potential rescuer get the doors open ?" Karl, I understand your point but I have thought it very carefully and I am very serious and happy with my always locked doors when inflight (I have pip-pins both side)! The risks of the unlocked doors when inflight are heavier than the risks of the pip-pin locked doors when crash landed. Consider this: 1) An unthinking passenger can easily lift the lever and ask "what is this?". Shit happens, really. The pip pin prevents accidents like this - a pilot has more time to react and say no no no. The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a retarder! 2) Pilots=B4s or co-pilot=B4s sleeve could easily lift the lever by accident - pip pin prevents this. The guard alone is good but not 100% guaranteed. The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a safety catch. 3) Passenger side=B4s pip-pin is a good, simple and effective door lock when grounded. The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be just a lock. 4) I have in my POH: before emergency landing remove door pip-pins. 5) In the case of emergency landing and the doors are still locked: do you really think it is difficult to open the door? Just kick the window and it is gone, surely! For "potential rescuer" it is not a problem at all! It is the smallest worry in this case! Those pip-pins are clearly visible and understandable. BTW both of the C172=B4s doors are inflight lockable. I know some people lock them and some do not. I locked them always when flying but that was for personal comfort only. When locked the lever was levelled and the armrest was usable. I am not sure what do they say in Cessnas POH - my guess is "do open the door locks before landing". Karl, do you accept my (serious) points? Would you like to see the pick of my pip-pin equipped door lever guards? Raimo OH-XRT * The Builder's Bookstore http://www.matronics.com/co============ ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:57:19 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. From: "rampil" Re internal quick-release hinges for door Hi Peter, Are you accounting for the compression/tension of the upper door as an important structural member of the fuselage. It is my recollection that the upper hinges and door frame are structural, not ornamental. I have not done a FEA of the Europa but just looking suggests that the cockpit roof and door members are in tension holding the fuselage from folding down during flight. Before committing to a change in aircraft structure, I'd really suggest that you check with Andy, Dave, or Bud. Good Luck, Ira -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273589#273589 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:23 PM PST US From: "Tim Ward" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Safety improvement list Well put Brian, quite agree. The art of 'risk management' is slowly been lost. Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street' Fendalton, Christchurch. NEW ZEALAND Ph. 64 3 3515166 Mob 021 0640221 Email ward.t@xtra.co.nz ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Davies To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 4:28 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list In the UK, homebuilts are daylight VFR only. I have never spotted an aircraft in daylight by seeing its strobes. I dont think they are an essential safety feature. Regarding the check valve in the fuel return line, has there ever been an incident/accident where the lack of one has caused a fire? It is very easy to add a long list of additional safety items (and weight) using a "what if" method. If you are carrying out a proper risk assessment you should always balance this with probability and the consequences of the risk materialising. The reason everyone in the UK has to wear hard hats, high vis jackets, safety boots and safety glasses to change a light bulb is because of defective risk assessment. Brian Davies ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of G-IANI Sent: 18 November 2009 11:56 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list Frans and all, Some comments on your safety improvement list 1) Safety belts. Do not use types which formulate loops - Agreed Make modified upper fixing points - Agreed I am not sure you need the "lengthened and foldable headrest". 2) Fuel systems - routing outside the cabin (weight penalty none or some) - Agreed in principal. G-IANI is a Trigear so all the fuel system is in the centre tunnel - return line with one-way-valve or emergency off-selector - Sounds a good idea, I will talk to LAA about this - do not use original glass fuel filters - They have there limitation but are acceptable if they are accessible and can be monitored and cleaned. Has anyone found a reasonably priced substitute we could standardise on. - consider the safety of sight gauge and it=B4s location. - What the manual recommends is not good. Of the variations that builders have done which is the best compromise in terms of safety and functionality? - have a fuel warning /gauge/pressure gauge /computer - Agreed I would not fly G-IANI without it 3) Doors - use unintentioned opening guards and secure them with pip-pins to levers - In the UK the LAA do not approve this. It is a value judgement on the risks involved. - install serial connected micro switches w warning lights behind shoot bolts. - OK but, as Karl said, they can lead to a false sense of security. A manual check is essential 4) Cowlings - do not make those little oil/water check doors - so you have to take whole upper cowling away and see and check same time much much more (weight penalty none, use cam locks or equal - so it is pleasure to open so often you like - I do it every 5 flight hrs) I have Southco fasteners on my cowl. They are a lot of work to fit but do make removing the cowl a lot easier. I still think you need the oil/water check doors for doing the daily "A" check. 5) Electrics - use two serial connected master switches; so called panel mstr leaves juice for trim, stall warner, charging for emergency batteries, clocks, burglar alarms, horns, convenience lights AND an engine starter - total master cuts everything (weight penalty none, normally my total master is always on, I close it only during longs stays over two weeks or just before possible crash I wish, panel mstr switch uses light weight 40A relay which uses only few milliamperes, total mstr switch is mechanical with "a key" and uses 0 amperes) That is essentially how G-IANI is set up1. Both my switches are mechanical 6) Cockpit equipments - have a carbon monoxide detector - Agreed - have a Halon fire extinguisher - Agreed it is a requirement in the UK - have a personal locater beacon with gps - Agreed - have a stall warner or AoA indicator - Agreed 7) Outside equipments - have at least strobes - Agreed. This is something that should be in the manual Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 280 hours Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com 270.14.69/2508 - Release Date: 11/18/09 07:50:00 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. From: Peter Zutrauen Hi Ira, Valid points, but I am not proposing any structural modifications whatsoever - just simply making the *existing* hinge pins removable (tho still captured for normal use) and pulling them out of the hinges in an emergency via thin cables attached to an 'emergency' hanle which would be recessed and ornamentally covered to avoid inadvertently pulling it (during one of those "what's that" passenger mements). Shouldn't weigh more than a few 10s of grams either. Well worth the capability to exit when upside down. ...but thinking further - you mean I shouldn't plan on flying my long wings with the doors and engine off? That would have given it a real hang-glider feel ;-) Cheers & thx, Pete A239 On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 2:56 PM, rampil wrote: > > Re internal quick-release hinges for door > > > Hi Peter, > > Are you accounting for the compression/tension of the upper door as an > important structural member of the fuselage. It is my recollection that > the upper hinges and door frame are structural, not ornamental. I have > not done a FEA of the Europa but just looking suggests that the cockpit > roof and door members are in tension holding the fuselage from folding > down during flight. > > Before committing to a change in aircraft structure, I'd really suggest > that you check with Andy, Dave, or Bud. > > Good Luck, > > Ira > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273589#273589 > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:14 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Safety improvement list On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: G-IANI > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 1:56 PM > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety improvement list > > Make modified upper fixing points - Agreed > > I am not sure you need the "lengthened and foldable headrest". > > That is an alternative if the original upper fixing point is still > going to be there. That mod is possible do afterwards. It is on my > list. With lenghtened headrest the safety belts do not compress your > spinal - they are coming from up. It is better to be also foldable - > so it does not restrict reaching back seat. I do not remember whos > idea this was but "he" has good pics of it. > Raimo...I think I'm the culprit...it does everything you say, and I tested mine to 15 G's, assuming 100 # upper body weight. The stress loads all go back to the original hardpoint at the back of the stock seat back/headrest. Pixs below are self explanatory. Fred ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:45:24 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Safety improvement list G-IANI wrote: > Ideally the return pipe should be a single piece from end to end. So the > high risk of leakage is at the end connections (the pipe being severed mid > cockpit is, even in an accident, possible but very unlikely if properly > routed). I see your reasoning. But why then should we have the possibility to close the main fuel line TO the engine? If it is a 912(S) it should also be of one piece, and the end at the engine is also higher than the tank. Reasoning should be consequent: if there is a fuel close off valve, all exits from the tank should be closed. Furthermore, I doubt that the fuel line will remain intact by a serious crash landing. There has been at least one occasion (I know off) where the front of the airplane broke off, taking the engine with it. Occupants survived without injuries. Aluminium pipes will break in such a situation, and rubber lines will tear apart. In case of a 914, the entire fuel tank will drain via the broken return line. > By fitting a one way valve, this suggests that the unwanted flow is coming > from the tank. The engine end (with the restrictor in it) is higher than the > tank so fuel would not flow from the line if disconnected. Only if properly "disconnected". In a crash, it is highly doubtful that the line will be disconnected at the very end, and remain higher than the tank. Given the fact that a one way valve will not add significant weight, maintenance, or failure points, I think it is a worthwile safety feature. Frans ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:01 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. Karl Heindl wrote: > Pete, > > A very nice idea. When you get it done, I would like to copy it. An > individual quick release on each hinge would be adequate for me. Count me in as well. Frans ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:03 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins. rampil wrote: > Are you accounting for the compression/tension of the upper door as an > important structural member of the fuselage. It is my recollection that > the upper hinges and door frame are structural, not ornamental. I think I have read somewhere that the Europa was intended to be "convertible", i.e. that it should be possible to fly it without doors. Ok, nobody seems to like it, but the design is there. Apart from that, I highy doubt that the door could serve as a structural member given the fact that the hinges are very weak. Frans ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:20:52 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Safety improvement list Brian Davies wrote: > In the UK, homebuilts are daylight VFR only. I have never spotted an > aircraft in daylight by seeing its strobes. I dont think they are an > essential safety feature. I have spotted several aircraft because they turned in such a way that they reflected the sunshine for a short moment. Not so many planes because of their strobes that I remember, but few airplanes have them (switched on). Still, while looking for traffic in a circuit, I have found the planes much easier when they had strobes. And then, there are strobes and strobes... There are quite a lot of pretty useless strobes. Cessna's, with their weak single flash every few seconds. So we have installed very strong strobes, feeding the three bulbs with the max they can handle in a double flash pattern, and even in bright daylight they are sore to the eye. The very efficient power supply draws 5 amps, anything less would not be visible enough. We feed 30 Watts to the tail strobe, and 16 Watts to each wing tip. Frans ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:20:56 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cowling with no access doors Raimo Toivio wrote: > A good pilot follow (his) rules always - also when hurry and a storm is coming. > If he has not time enough - he will cancel the planned flight. > A bad pilot does not and the easily openable access doors do not help. > She /he will skipp also them. That is so simple. Ok, you are right. Well, I should have started this topic earlier. I now have these silly access doors, and should have invested the time to make them instead in making the entire cowling on a hinge. The latter I can do, but to get rid of the doors is more difficult... :-( Frans ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:20:56 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cowling with no access doors On Nov 18, 2009, at 11:03 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote: > She also with her easily removable access doorless cowling is cute > like a virgin, isnt she? ; ~~ )) Very cute...and I'm making my cowls from Alex's molds to house my mighty Subaru which I should have in about 10 days. I notice your NACA inlet...I've been thinking of doing the same thing to provide combustion air...the air filter will be just about dead center below where your inlet is...but I'm scratching my head on how to construct air box / inlet interface w/ the upper cowl being removable. For what purpose is your NACA inlet? Fred ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:25 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Safety improvement list Raimo Toivio wrote: > Thanks Ian, > > - do not use original glass fuel filters They have there > limitation but are acceptable if they are accessible and can be > monitored and cleaned. Has anyone found a reasonably priced > substitute we could standardise on. > > *I have. It is an original Rotax fuel filter. Goes direct instead > of Europa suplied Profuel filter. It is cheap, one piece and no > glass at all, only plastic, no separate parts, cannot assemble > wrong manner (because undismountable), unbreakable and when used > throw away it. I change them avery annual = every 50 hrs.* > > Raimo OH-XRT from Finland > > ** > Trouble with any fixed in line filter is you cannot check it without disturbing the fuel lines so the rubber hose gets eroded every time it is removed. It is also possible to block a filter in one event by pouring dirty fuel into the tank. (especially if the Purolator is installed back to front :-( ) I think the only acceptable filter is an Andair gascolator. Easy to check every time by draining a little fuel from the bowl. Won't allow water through either. I know we never have trouble with our cars but they either have a very large filter (with a water drain) and they very rarely get filled up out in the field miles from anywhere using someone else's scruffy old Jerry can. 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