---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/14/09: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:00 AM - Fuel Flow checks unleaded mogas (Richard Iddon) 2. 03:56 AM - Re: Fuel Flow checks unleaded mogas (danny shepherd) 3. 04:02 AM - Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Frans Veldman) 4. 04:45 AM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Hans Siedsma) 5. 05:02 AM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Frans Veldman) 6. 05:44 AM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Kevin Klinefelter) 7. 07:50 AM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Raimo Toivio) 8. 08:17 AM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Richard Sementilli) 9. 08:54 AM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Frans Veldman) 10. 10:24 AM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Fred Klein) 11. 01:25 PM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Richard Churchill-Coleman) 12. 01:48 PM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Fred Klein) 13. 01:50 PM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Raimo Toivio) 14. 02:17 PM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (duanefamly@aol.com) 15. 02:47 PM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (hurstkr@redzone.com.au) 16. 02:58 PM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Robert C Harrison) 17. 04:25 PM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Frans Veldman) 18. 04:25 PM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Fred Klein) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:00:28 AM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Flow checks unleaded mogas Is there still a forum archive site. I am looking for information about the inspections checks on the 912S to allow it to use Mogas as issued by the LAA. Richard Iddon. G-RIXS ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:56:42 AM PST US From: danny shepherd Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel Flow checks unleaded mogas Hi Richard, If you go to the LAA site/engineering/mogas you can down load the inspection list laa/1c-ulm-rotax 4 stroke. I had to get my inspector to check and sign it. Danny G-CERI Richard Iddon wrote: > > Is there still a forum archive site. I am looking for information > about the inspections checks on the 912S to allow it to use Mogas as > issued by the LAA. > > > > Richard Iddon. G-RIXS > > > > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:02:57 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? Dear fellow experimental aviators, I'm looking at the pro's and con's of emergency parachutes. I'm sure some people on this forums have thought about this subject and formed opinions about it, and I would like to hear more about it. I have no experience with parachutes nor any opinion further than that I can imagine that there are a few occasions where parachutes could save ones life. Even this could be unrealistic imagination of course. Questions are: 1) What are the chances of getting out of a Europa in level flight (frozen controls). Will you get hit by the tailplane if you just climb out and let go? 2) What are the chances of getting out of a Europa after some sort of structural failure where the aircraft may be spinning and tumbling? Will G-forces pin you down in your seat? 3) Is there any statistics about the amount of lifes saved due to parachutes in General Aviation applications? Personal opinions, in case of being forced to make an emergency landing: 1) Over water, would you opt for being the first one to try to land the Europa on open water, or rather jump out by parachute? 2) In non-hospitalised area's (like mountainous terrain), would you try to make the best of it and land in the trees or river down the valley, or rather jump out? Any opinions welcome, Frans ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:45:26 AM PST US From: "Hans Siedsma" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? Hello Frans We just have add a safety parachute system to an Europa XS. The parachute system has been build aaaand installed by the Czech manufacturer. I can make picture if you like. You can see the plane here in the Netherlands. If you like we can give you all the technical specifications /details. This year that company had already a number of emergency rescue parachute landings in Europe. I do not have it yet in my plane but I think about it. I am just flying with it in this plane. Best regards, Hans Siedsma -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 14 December 2009 12:48 Subject: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? Dear fellow experimental aviators, I'm looking at the pro's and con's of emergency parachutes. I'm sure some people on this forums have thought about this subject and formed opinions about it, and I would like to hear more about it. I have no experience with parachutes nor any opinion further than that I can imagine that there are a few occasions where parachutes could save ones life. Even this could be unrealistic imagination of course. Questions are: 1) What are the chances of getting out of a Europa in level flight (frozen controls). Will you get hit by the tailplane if you just climb out and let go? 2) What are the chances of getting out of a Europa after some sort of structural failure where the aircraft may be spinning and tumbling? Will G-forces pin you down in your seat? 3) Is there any statistics about the amount of lifes saved due to parachutes in General Aviation applications? Personal opinions, in case of being forced to make an emergency landing: 1) Over water, would you opt for being the first one to try to land the Europa on open water, or rather jump out by parachute? 2) In non-hospitalised area's (like mountainous terrain), would you try to make the best of it and land in the trees or river down the valley, or rather jump out? Any opinions welcome, Frans ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:06 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? Hans Siedsma wrote: > We just have add a safety parachute system to an Europa XS. The parachute > system has been build aaaand installed by the Czech manufacturer. I can > make picture if you like. You can see the plane here in the Netherlands. It is interesting. However, I was thinking about personal parachutes. I'm wondering what the weight penalty would be for a BRS (airplane chute)? I guess that apart from the weight of the cute it will also be necessary to reinforce the attachment points for the chute. It could however be an interesting alternative, but of course worthless in case of a fire or a severe structural failure. Can the airplane be reused after a BRS deployment? Frans ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:28 AM PST US From: "Kevin Klinefelter" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? Hans, I would be interested to see the specs/details. I'm curious as to how they sttached it to the Europa airframe and how the rocket and chute exit. Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Siedsma" Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 4:38 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? > > Hello Frans > > We just have add a safety parachute system to an Europa XS. The > parachute > system has been build aaaand installed by the Czech manufacturer. I can > make picture if you like. You can see the plane here in the Netherlands. > If > you like we can give you all the technical specifications /details. This > year that company had already a number of emergency rescue parachute > landings in Europe. > > I do not have it yet in my plane but I think about it. I am just flying > with > it in this plane. > > Best regards, > Hans Siedsma > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman > Sent: 14 December 2009 12:48 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? > > > > Dear fellow experimental aviators, > > I'm looking at the pro's and con's of emergency parachutes. I'm sure > some people on this forums have thought about this subject and formed > opinions about it, and I would like to hear more about it. I have no > experience with parachutes nor any opinion further than that I can > imagine that there are a few occasions where parachutes could save ones > life. Even this could be unrealistic imagination of course. > > Questions are: > 1) What are the chances of getting out of a Europa in level flight > (frozen controls). Will you get hit by the tailplane if you just climb > out and let go? > 2) What are the chances of getting out of a Europa after some sort of > structural failure where the aircraft may be spinning and tumbling? Will > G-forces pin you down in your seat? > 3) Is there any statistics about the amount of lifes saved due to > parachutes in General Aviation applications? > > Personal opinions, in case of being forced to make an emergency landing: > 1) Over water, would you opt for being the first one to try to land the > Europa on open water, or rather jump out by parachute? > 2) In non-hospitalised area's (like mountainous terrain), would you try > to make the best of it and land in the trees or river down the valley, > or rather jump out? > > Any opinions welcome, > Frans > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:35 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? > > I'm wondering what the weight penalty would be for a BRS (airplane > chute)? I guess that apart from the weight of the cute it will also be > necessary to reinforce the attachment points for the chute. Frans, I assume the weight of the BRS is around 35 kg + all the possible type specified reinforcements needed. It could > however be an interesting alternative, but of course worthless in case > of a fire or a severe structural failure. Useless when fire but most structural cases probably ok because you do not need wings /tailplanes/rudder/fin/engine when landing with a chute. It is fixed just behind the cockpit. There was an interesting article in EAAs Sport Pilot (December 2009, pages 44-45). A test deployment of an early version of a whole-aircraft parachute recovery system was 1983. It was almost a disaster because testpilot contacted power lines and then landed to a major highway (in true California surfer-dude style, he was wearing sandals only). Since that BRS has saved 240 lives so far, according to the company. Can the airplane be reused > after a BRS deployment? I think it is written off and only spares after landing but pilot and passengers can reuse their lives! Raimo OH-XRT ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:02 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? From: Richard Sementilli Dear Hans, I too looked into this idea long ago and found it to be almost impossible to execute from a time and money sstandpoint. I would like to see how added it to your Europa as you mention below. Thanks, Richard S N141EW On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:38 AM, Hans Siedsma wrote: > > Hello Frans > > We just have add a safety parachute system to an Europa XS. The parachute > system has been build aaaand installed by the Czech manufacturer. I can > make picture if you like. You can see the plane here in the Netherlands. If > you like we can give you all the technical specifications /details. This > year that company had already a number of emergency rescue parachute > landings in Europe. > > I do not have it yet in my plane but I think about it. I am just flying > with > it in this plane. > > Best regards, > Hans Siedsma > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman > Sent: 14 December 2009 12:48 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? > > > > > Dear fellow experimental aviators, > > I'm looking at the pro's and con's of emergency parachutes. I'm sure > some people on this forums have thought about this subject and formed > opinions about it, and I would like to hear more about it. I have no > experience with parachutes nor any opinion further than that I can > imagine that there are a few occasions where parachutes could save ones > life. Even this could be unrealistic imagination of course. > > Questions are: > 1) What are the chances of getting out of a Europa in level flight > (frozen controls). Will you get hit by the tailplane if you just climb > out and let go? > 2) What are the chances of getting out of a Europa after some sort of > structural failure where the aircraft may be spinning and tumbling? Will > G-forces pin you down in your seat? > 3) Is there any statistics about the amount of lifes saved due to > parachutes in General Aviation applications? > > Personal opinions, in case of being forced to make an emergency landing: > 1) Over water, would you opt for being the first one to try to land the > Europa on open water, or rather jump out by parachute? > 2) In non-hospitalised area's (like mountainous terrain), would you try > to make the best of it and land in the trees or river down the valley, > or rather jump out? > > Any opinions welcome, > Frans > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:29 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? Raimo Toivio wrote: > Useless when fire but most structural cases probably ok because you > do not need wings /tailplanes/rudder/fin/engine when landing with a > chute. It is fixed just behind the cockpit. It appears to me as likely that an airplane that lost a critical part of its flying surface will start gyrating, tumbling, spinning, and not continue with straight and level flight. If the latter would be true, it could probably be landed and you wouldn't need a chute. I can further imagine that if you deploy a chute from a wildly gyrating, spinning and tumbling airplane it will wind up the chute lines or possible wrap the entire chute around itself. What about balance? Doesn't the aircraft need to be somehow in balance under the chute? And what if that balance is lost due to loosing an engine (prop blade failure) or wing? In the statistics I found about BRS, most (if not all) situations where the BRS was used was in a pilot induced emergency. Inadvertent flight into IMC, icing, and two cases of pilot incapacitation. None after structural failure, so we don't have proof that it would work in such a situation. >> Can the airplane be reused >> after a BRS deployment? > > I think it is written off and only spares after landing but pilot and > passengers can reuse their lives! If the airplane gets written off anyway, then what is the advantage of a BRS over personal parachutes? A BRS is heavier and probably more expensive, and requires modifications to the airplane (and unless someone has gone this route before, it will remain an experiment how it works out on an Europa). So, I was considering the option of using individual parachutes. So far nobody seems to have an opinion on this.... Frans ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:22 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? On Dec 14, 2009, at 5:00 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > Can the airplane be reused after a BRS deployment? Last time I checked...and I've had a BRS chute on my glider since the mid'80s...the company is explicit that their system is a life- preservation system, and not an aircraft-preservation system. Cirrus pilots I've talked with have said that the BRS system has zero impact on hull insurance. I suspect but cannot confirm that survivability depends in part on the airframe absorbing some of the impact energy...a Cirrus sales rep would give you the whole story. Fred ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:46 PM PST US From: "Richard Churchill-Coleman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? Hi Frans, I'm one of those rare pilots who also enjoys baling out of serviceable aircraft as a pastime. I have only made about a 100 jumps from about 10'k each. I own and pack my own main parachute, which is a square, ram air (therefore steerable) type wing. My deployment system allows for hand deployment of the drogue chute when clear of the airframe. Most pilot/gliding reserve parachutes tend to be round (barely steerable) and deployed by a rip cord that releases a spring loaded drogue. My comments therefore need to be taken in the context of what I am used to, rather than having practised departing a spinning, broken aircraft: 1) What are the chances of getting out of a Europa in level flight (frozen controls). Will you get hit by the tailplane if you just climb out and let go? If the aircraft was in straight and level flight, getting out is simple. Open the door, let it get ripped off in the slipstream, reduce speed to just above stall if possible, stand up on the seat, step out onto the wing, using the cockpit rim as a handhold, sit on the trailing edge and drop off. If you have time and are alone, climb further out on the wing so that either the aircraft rolls and drops you off the wing tip (preferably head first so, if anything, it's your feet that strike the tailplane) or else if it doesn't roll then get far enough out along the wing to definitely avoid the tailplane when you leave the aircraft. However, steady flight IMHO seems like the least likely scenario in which you would find yourself needing to leave the aircraft. 2) What are the chances of getting out of a Europa after some sort of structural failure where the aircraft may be spinning and tumbling? Will G-forces pin you down in your seat? Again, once the doors are opened and gone, it's surprising how motivated you will be to get yourself out of the aircraft. However, there is a high risk of being struck by the aircraft as you leave it. Broken limbs you will survive, but skydivers wear helmets and if you are struck and left unconscious then you won't be pulling the rip cord. Skydivers fit electronic "life savers" that fire the reserve if you at freefall speeds below 750'. For obvious reasons you won't want one of those on your parachute. 3) Is there any statistics about the amount of lifes saved due to parachutes in General Aviation applications? No information on this sorry. Personal opinions, in case of being forced to make an emergency landing: 1) Over water, would you opt for being the first one to try to land the Europa on open water, or rather jump out by parachute? Land on water - aircraft float if they land intact, parachutes tangle you up and drown you unless you are trained in water landing emergencies and carry a cut away knife. 2) In non-hospitalised area's (like mountainous terrain), would you try to make the best of it and land in the trees or river down the valley, or rather jump out? Pretty even odds on this - on a round chute with minimum steerage you could end up in a nasty place and injured landing in trees or on high rocky areas. At least the airframe will take some of the impact - if it's still flying. If there is a mid-air break up, definitely take the parachute option! All in all, I have not considered flying with an emergency parachute for the following reasons: (a) They are heavy, require regular maintenance and without modification they will not sit comfortably in a Europa seat. (b) Gliders and aerobatic pilots wear them because of the risk of mid-air collision (when thermalling) and loss of control - a properly maintained Europa flown within limits shouldn't do either of these. (c) Most light aircraft flying is done in the 2'k to 4'k height bands. You need a comfortable 1,500' decision height to allow you to get clear of the aircraft to deploy your parachute and have it open safely. That's not much time to make the decision to abandon the aircraft and execute it. Unless there is a very obvious sign that the aircraft is unflyable, you probably won't have made the abandon aircraft decision before you get below 1,500'. Essentially, while there are circumstances where you will avoid death or serious injury by using a parachute, they are rare in normal flight operations. It is usually the lower risk option to stay with and fly the airframe. There is at least one example in the UK of a glider instructor telling his pupil to bale out and then going on to land the aircraft safely. Given the choice, I would spend the money and the weight allowance on a fire extinguisher, first aid kit and EPIRB instead. Hope that helps, Best wishes Richard C-C G-RPCC 912S Mono - well more of a wheel chock and 2 canoes at the moment...... -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 14 December 2009 11:48 Subject: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? --> Dear fellow experimental aviators, I'm looking at the pro's and con's of emergency parachutes. I'm sure some people on this forums have thought about this subject and formed opinions about it, and I would like to hear more about it. I have no experience with parachutes nor any opinion further than that I can imagine that there are a few occasions where parachutes could save ones life. Even this could be unrealistic imagination of course. Questions are: Any opinions welcome, Frans Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 07:37:00 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:48:46 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? On Dec 14, 2009, at 8:19 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > So, I was considering the option of using individual parachutes. So > far > nobody seems to have an opinion on this.... Frans, Speaking only for myself, I would consider any attempt of mine to exit the Europa in flight, especially w/ a chute on my back, to have a very low probability of success...others may be more agile. Fred ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:24 PM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? > > It appears to me as likely that an airplane that lost a critical part of > its flying surface will start gyrating, tumbling, spinning, and not > continue with straight and level flight. If the latter would be true, it > could probably be landed and you wouldn't need a chute. I can further > imagine that if you deploy a chute from a wildly gyrating, spinning and > tumbling airplane it will wind up the chute lines or possible wrap the > entire chute around itself. What about balance? Doesn't the aircraft > need to be somehow in balance under the chute? And what if that balance > is lost due to loosing an engine (prop blade failure) or wing? Frans, I have understood that the only limiting factor to use BRS is certain level speed, which must be below BRS max operational speed. If you have lost the control of the plane because of IMC or what so ever, BRS in your only hope. It works like an ejection seat launched by a rocket. It is a life saver - not a plane saver. Over cities or rough terrain - how to make a succesful emergency landing? There was some years ago an old couple flying Cirrus SR22 over New York City. They decided to join Mile High Club and started to make love with autopilot on. Somehow they found themselves from the back seat and the plane went out of the balance totally. They used BRS with success. Normal parachutes were not their option in this case (hard to make love with backbacks on). > > In the statistics I found about BRS, most (if not all) situations where > the BRS was used was in a pilot induced emergency. Inadvertent flight > into IMC, icing, and two cases of pilot incapacitation. None after > structural failure, so we don't have proof that it would work in such a > situation. Maybe so but it is much more challenging task to enter out of the plane than just pull a red T-bar marked "BRS". > > If the airplane gets written off anyway, then what is the advantage of a > BRS over personal parachutes? A BRS is heavier and probably more > expensive, and requires modifications to the airplane (and unless > someone has gone this route before, it will remain an experiment how it > works out on an Europa). Personally, I think a plane must plan around BRS. It is very difficult or even impossible to add BRS later. In Europas case I do not believe there is an armed and fully operational usable BRS before I have seen it. > > So, I was considering the option of using individual parachutes. So far > nobody seems to have an opinion on this.... So - with Europa - this is only possibility to use personal chute. For you - a sporty couple like - it is also a realistic possibility. But not for all...some people cannot enter into or out from Europa even on the ground. Price - my guess is that an ordinary chute is around 1000 euros and BRS over 10.000 euros + installing costs if even possible. I wish we never need any chute. I have jumped out from the plane two times: first and last time with one single jump. Cheers, Raimo OH-XRT ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? From: duanefamly@aol.com I am not a skydiver.....that's the wife's fortay. I have built my Europa and will probably do the first flight and flight testing. I have purchase d an slim backpack emergency parachute and will put up with it's uncomfort able seating while I am flying off my 40 hours and putting my project thro ugh it's paces. If the unforseen happens then I would prefer to try and fi ght to get out of the aircraft rather than just sit and wait for the groun d to come up at me. I figure if I have an inflight fire and don't have a parachute, then I don't have any other option than to stay with the plane . I remember a movie about WWI flyers that carried a pistol for just such events. So along that train of thought. I would prefer to have a parachut e, contemplate my options, and decide whether or not to use it, rather tha n not have the choice. So I guess it's personal opinion. Mike Duane XS Conventional Gear Redding, CA -----Original Message----- From: Richard Churchill-Coleman Sent: Mon, Dec 14, 2009 12:45 pm Subject: RE: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? richard.churchill-coleman@sky.com> Hi Frans, I'm one of those rare pilots who also enjoys baling out of serviceable ircraft as a pastime. I have only made about a 100 jumps from about 10'k ach. I own and pack my own main parachute, which is a square, ram air therefore steerable) type wing. My deployment system allows for hand eployment of the drogue chute when clear of the airframe. Most ilot/gliding reserve parachutes tend to be round (barely steerable) and eployed by a rip cord that releases a spring loaded drogue. My comments herefore need to be taken in the context of what I am used to, rather than aving practised departing a spinning, broken aircraft: 1) What are the chances of getting out of a Europa in level flight (frozen ontrols). Will you get hit by the tailplane if you just climb out and let o? If the aircraft was in straight and level flight, getting out is simple. pen the door, let it get ripped off in the slipstream, reduce speed to jus t bove stall if possible, stand up on the seat, step out onto the wing, usin g he cockpit rim as a handhold, sit on the trailing edge and drop off. If ou have time and are alone, climb further out on the wing so that either he aircraft rolls and drops you off the wing tip (preferably head first so , f anything, it's your feet that strike the tailplane) or else if it doesn' t oll then get far enough out along the wing to definitely avoid the ailplane when you leave the aircraft. However, steady flight IMHO seems ike the least likely scenario in which you would find yourself needing to eave the aircraft. 2) What are the chances of getting out of a Europa after some sort of tructural failure where the aircraft may be spinning and tumbling? Will -forces pin you down in your seat? Again, once the doors are opened and gone, it's surprising how motivated you ill be to get yourself out of the aircraft. However, there is a high risk f being struck by the aircraft as you leave it. Broken limbs you will urvive, but skydivers wear helmets and if you are struck and left nconscious then you won't be pulling the rip cord. Skydivers fit lectronic "life savers" that fire the reserve if you at freefall speeds elow 750'. For obvious reasons you won't want one of those on your arachute. 3) Is there any statistics about the amount of lifes saved due to parachut es n General Aviation applications? No information on this sorry. Personal opinions, in case of being forced to make an emergency landing: 1) Over water, would you opt for being the first one to try to land the uropa on open water, or rather jump out by parachute? Land on water - aircraft float if they land intact, parachutes tangle you up nd drown you unless you are trained in water landing emergencies and carry cut away knife. 2) In non-hospitalised area's (like mountainous terrain), would you try to ake the best of it and land in the trees or river down the valley, or ather jump out? Pretty even odds on this - on a round chute with minimum steerage you coul d nd up in a nasty place and injured landing in trees or on high rocky areas .. t least the airframe will take some of the impact - if it's still flying. f there is a mid-air break up, definitely take the parachute option! All in all, I have not considered flying with an emergency parachute for the ollowing reasons: a) They are heavy, require regular maintenance and without modification hey will not sit comfortably in a Europa seat. b) Gliders and aerobatic pilots wear them because of the risk of mid-air ollision (when thermalling) and loss of control - a properly maintained uropa flown within limits shouldn't do either of these. c) Most light aircraft flying is done in the 2'k to 4'k height bands. You eed a comfortable 1,500' decision height to allow you to get clear of the ircraft to deploy your parachute and have it open safely. That's not much ime to make the decision to abandon the aircraft and execute it. Unless here is a very obvious sign that the aircraft is unflyable, you probably on't have made the abandon aircraft decision before you get below 1,500'. Essentially, while there are circumstances where you will avoid death or erious injury by using a parachute, they are rare in normal flight perations. It is usually the lower risk option to stay with and fly the irframe. There is at least one example in the UK of a glider instructor elling his pupil to bale out and then going on to land the aircraft safely .. Given the choice, I would spend the money and the weight allowance on a fi re xtinguisher, first aid kit and EPIRB instead. Hope that helps, est wishes ichard C-C -RPCC 12S Mono - well more of a wheel chock and 2 canoes at the moment...... -----Original Message----- rom: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman ent: 14 December 2009 11:48 o: europa-list@matronics.com ubject: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? -> Dear fellow experimental aviators, I'm looking at the pro's and con's of emergency parachutes. I'm sure some eople on this forums have thought about this subject and formed opinions bout it, and I would like to hear more about it. I have no experience with arachutes nor any opinion further than that I can imagine that there are a ew occasions where parachutes could save ones life. Even this could be nrealistic imagination of course. Questions are: Any opinions welcome, rans hecked by AVG - www.avg.com 7:37:00 -======================== ======================== =========== - -= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- -= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) - -= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. 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Quoting Frans Veldman : > So, I was considering the option of using individual parachutes. So far > nobody seems to have an opinion on this.... Frans, If I were you, I would try sitting in a Europa with a slim pack parachute strapped on to see if you can get comfortable enough. From my experience of flying sailplanes with personal parachutes, I think you might find this to be a problem. Regarding the suitability of a ballistic system in the case of an inflight structural failure, the way I look at it is that without it, you WILL be dead. With it, it may or may not deploy successfully but there is a much better than 0% chance that it WILL open. Remember, there is no guarantee that a personal one will deploy successfully either! Cheers Kingsley in Oz ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:23 PM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? Hi! Frans I've "kept my head down" hoping someone would tell you that one "Miles.McAllum....." an editor of one of the UK magazines was developing a suitable system of slings to which the BRS could be attached. It was a major problem since the forward sling needs to be attached just behind the propeller. The only place for the BRS canister would be central to the rear of and between the back rests in the roof. He had loads of design problems with the then -PFA. The forward sling required to either split the windscreen inside or outside and certainly visually it was going to be a "dogs dinner" Ultimately he ran out of steam on the project as a whole and sold his kit on. If Miles or anyone has info contrary then I will rescind my statements. The rate of descent is likely to be pretty fast so ground impact would wreck the aircraft anyway. These things are a chance we all take so we need to be constantly aware of "what if the donkey stops" where are we intending to land and will we likely be cinders prior to impact ? I think you need to be aware but as prepared as possible but then erase it from your worried brow ! Regards Bob Harrison. G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 14 December 2009 11:48 Subject: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? Dear fellow experimental aviators, I'm looking at the pro's and con's of emergency parachutes. I'm sure some people on this forums have thought about this subject and formed opinions about it, and I would like to hear more about it. I have no experience with parachutes nor any opinion further than that I can imagine that there are a few occasions where parachutes could save ones life. Even this could be unrealistic imagination of course. Questions are: 1) What are the chances of getting out of a Europa in level flight (frozen controls). Will you get hit by the tailplane if you just climb out and let go? 2) What are the chances of getting out of a Europa after some sort of structural failure where the aircraft may be spinning and tumbling? Will G-forces pin you down in your seat? 3) Is there any statistics about the amount of lifes saved due to parachutes in General Aviation applications? Personal opinions, in case of being forced to make an emergency landing: 1) Over water, would you opt for being the first one to try to land the Europa on open water, or rather jump out by parachute? 2) In non-hospitalised area's (like mountainous terrain), would you try to make the best of it and land in the trees or river down the valley, or rather jump out? Any opinions welcome, Frans ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:28 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? Richard Churchill-Coleman wrote: > > Hi Frans, > > I'm one of those rare pilots who also enjoys baling out of serviceable > aircraft as a pastime. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience. One reason I asked was that I heard the story of one Dutch homebuilder who was found in mounteneous terrain. Examination revealed that he got struck by lightning, because the controls where welded and could not be moved. Estimates where that he had been a passenger in his own airplane for some 20 minutes until he finally hit a mountain. He was alive until the moment of impact. I imagine that he would have had a fair chance if he would have had a parachute. So this triggered the idea that parachutes might be a "must have" option. So, hence my question about the odds of getting out in level flight at cruise speed. Your suggestion about slowing down to almost stall speed doesn't apply here, but I guess the idea remains the same. ;-) I further assumed that a jump out over rough terrain (rocks, trees) would be a walk away, but apparently it is not that easy. So I underestimate the landing speed and/or forward speed. Could you give me an estimate about these? If bailing out over rough terrain does not improve chances of survival very much then a significant part of the reasons to consider a parachute is gone. Same with a water landing, you took that away as well. ;-) > Given the choice, I would spend the money and the weight allowance on a fire > extinguisher, first aid kit and EPIRB instead. Ok, guess you are right. I will think about it some more. Thanks! Frans ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:30 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? On Dec 14, 2009, at 2:58 PM, Robert C Harrison wrote: > "Miles.McAllum....." an editor of one of the UK magazines was > developing a > suitable system of slings to which the BRS could be attached. It was > a major > problem since the forward sling needs to be attached just behind the > propeller. The only place for the BRS canister would be central to > the rear > of and between the back rests in the roof. He had loads of design > problems > with the then -PFA. The forward sling required to either split the > windscreen inside or outside The issues related to deploying a sling so that the aircraft descends horizontally are handled on the Cirrus/BRS installation by burying the straps in a joggle which is molded into the fuselage and which leads to the support points. The straps are then covered w/ a layer of glass and finish (gelcoat?) so that they are invisable. Upon deployment, the straps rip thru this thin layer so that aircraft and crew float (not exactly gently) towards terra firma. From the BRS point of view, there is a fair amount of flexibility in locating the cannister, subject of course to C of G on a particular aircraft. The BRS chute on my glider mounts right on the C of G. Exactly how one might create the recessed joggled area in a pre-molded fuselage would not be a challenge I'd take on. I'm surprised to learn that Miles determined that "the forward sling needs to be attached just behind the propeller"...it would appear to me that hard points port and starboard at the firewall would serve, but that would be pure speculation on my part. Fred A194 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.