Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:26 AM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
2. 02:26 AM - Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Remi Guerner)
3. 02:53 AM - AW: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (uvtreith)
4. 04:03 AM - Altimeter (Richard Iddon)
5. 04:35 AM - Re: Altimeter (Brian Davies)
6. 06:05 AM - Re: Altimeter (Richard Iddon)
7. 06:10 AM - Re: Altimeter (Robert C Harrison)
8. 07:41 AM - Re: AW: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (rampil)
9. 08:26 AM - Re: AW: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
10. 08:48 AM - Re: Altimeter (David Joyce)
11. 11:39 AM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Richard Churchill-Coleman)
12. 11:55 AM - Re: Altimeter (Mike Parkin)
13. 11:55 AM - Re: Altimeter (Richard Iddon)
14. 12:23 PM - Re: Altimeter (David Joyce)
15. 12:40 PM - Re: Altimeter (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
16. 12:50 PM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Frans Veldman)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? |
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Fred Klein <fklein@
orcasonline.com>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, 15 Decemb
er, 2009 0:23:24=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions
m>=0A=0A=0AExactly how one might create the recessed joggled area in a pre-
molded fuselage would not be a challenge I'd take on. I'm surprised to lear
n that Miles determined that "the forward sling needs to be attached just b
ehind the propeller"...it would appear to me that hard points port and star
board at the firewall would serve, but that would be pure speculation on my
part.=0A=0AFred=0AA194=0A=0AFred=0AAs I understand it, the airplane needs
to hang c. 30 degrees nose down so the engine/nosegear takes the initial im
pact. Miles had straps at front and rear to achieve this but it was a very
big job and eventually exhausted his patience, not least the bureaucratic i
ssues.=0AGraham=0A
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| Subject: | Emergency parachutes, opinions? |
<<<<<Can the airplane be reused after a BRS deployment?>>>>>>>
Hi all,
Regarding whole airplane emergency parachutes there are some
interresting videos on the BRS web site. One of them shows a RANS S6
deploying its parachute after hitting the tow rope of a glider tow over
Gap airfield in south east France.
http://brsparachutes.com/files/brsparachutes/files/cnn_off_air.wmv
On the same video there is a parachute deployment on a Cirrus. They say
both the Cirrus and the Rans were back in the air after repair.
Remi Guerner
Message 3
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| Subject: | Emergency parachutes, opinions? |
Hi All,
Our Europa Aircraft friends in CZ are developing at present together with
Galaxy a rescue system for the Europa plane.
As far as I now they will use (at present) steel ropes (maybe too stiff).
Two of them will have a "leading groove" underneath of the door sills, which
can easily break away. The other fixing point(s) will be behind the canopy,
so that the system is balanced. But as Graham says, the bird will hang with
nose down a bit, so that the engine/nose gear will take the first impact.
Please visit www.europa-aircraft.cz <http://www.europa-aircraft.cz/> and
click the bottom links for Galaxy. The Info there is also in English.
I am sure some Europa pilots could be still with us when they would have a
rescue system.
IMHO a parachute is not a good solution (except for test flying of course)
as the most crashes will happen at lower flight level.
The Galaxy system is using a rocket ejection which will get out and open the
rescue parachute also in lower levels.
I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a safe, enjoyful and healthy 2010.
Bruno
Europa Aircraft Germany
_____
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von GRAHAM
SINGLETON
Gesendet: Dienstag, 15. Dezember 2009 09:24
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions?
_____
From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 15 December, 2009 0:23:24
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions?
Exactly how one might create the recessed joggled area in a pre-molded
fuselage would not be a challenge I'd take on. I'm surprised to learn that
Miles determined that "the forward sling needs to be attached just behind
the propeller"...it would appear to me that hard points port and starboard
at the firewall would serve, but that would be pure speculation on my part.
Fred
A194
Fred
As I understand it, the airplane needs to hang c. 30 degrees nose down so
the engine/nosegear takes the initial impact. Miles had straps at front and
rear to achieve this but it was a very big job and eventually exhausted his
patience, not least the bureaucratic issues.
Graham
Message 4
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My altimeter seems to be reading about 150ft. too high. I wondered if
anyone who has upgraded to a glass panel may have their old steam driven
one for sale? Please contact me off forum if so.
Richard Iddon.
G-RIXS
Message 5
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Hi Richard,
Most altimeters have a way of adjusting the link between the pressure
setting and the altitude indication. This does not normally require any
dismantling of the altimeter. What Make/type of altimeter do you have?
Regards
Brian Davies
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Iddon
Sent: 15 December 2009 12:02
Subject: Europa-List: Altimeter
My altimeter seems to be reading about 150ft. too high. I wondered if
anyone who has upgraded to a glass panel may have their old steam driven one
for sale? Please contact me off forum if so.
Richard Iddon.
G-RIXS
19:40:00
Message 6
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Brian,
It is a Wultrad I believe. It has been perfectly fine for five years but
since the aircraft has been laid up for a while, it seems to be over
reading. My house is approx 50ft. above sea level but the altimeter is
reading 200 at todays pressure from local airfields.
Richard..
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
Davies
Sent: 15 December 2009 12:21
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Altimeter
Hi Richard,
Most altimeters have a way of adjusting the link between the pressure
setting and the altitude indication. This does not normally require any
dismantling of the altimeter. What Make/type of altimeter do you have?
Regards
Brian Davies
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Iddon
Sent: 15 December 2009 12:02
Subject: Europa-List: Altimeter
My altimeter seems to be reading about 150ft. too high. I wondered if
anyone who has upgraded to a glass panel may have their old steam driven
one for sale? Please contact me off forum if so.
Richard Iddon.
G-RIXS
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
270.14.108/2565 - Release Date: 12/14/09 19:40:00
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
12/14/09 19:40:00
Message 7
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Hi! Richard..My heart took a beat faster until I realized you were asking
for Altimeter and not DI !
I have a DI which is due for the chop to make room for my TruTrak Pictorial
Pilot !
Should you know anyone needing a DI send them my way please.
Regards
Bob Harrison.
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Iddon
Sent: 15 December 2009 12:02
Subject: Europa-List: Altimeter
My altimeter seems to be reading about 150ft. too high. I wondered if
anyone who has upgraded to a glass panel may have their old steam driven one
for sale? Please contact me off forum if so.
Richard Iddon.
G-RIXS
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: AW: Emergency parachutes, opinions? |
I would think that a rescue parachute system would require considerably
more engineering than just installation. The attach points quite probably
need the fuselage to be designed from the ground up to take the vertical
stress and distribute it appropriately. Is the fire wall ceramic composite
really going to take 1450 lbs x 6 g in shear? Has someone tried even a
static stress test?
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277616#277616
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: AW: Emergency parachutes, opinions? |
Just a thought on ballistic parachutes. I'm with Ira that ground up
approach may be the best way. That said I have quite a bit of experience
with accidental drogue chute deployments, and boy as far as getting plane
upright and out of a spin happensawful fast. I make inexpensive
small parachutes with sewing thread and a lolly pop on them. I fly a 4'
span flying wing with a pusher prop, mount two slight forward canted
dowels on top of wing and pack chute and put lolly pop on top. Climb and
shut off motor(have folding prop) roll upside down and pull some
negative Gs. 9 out of 10 times it works fine and the kids have a great
time,, 1 out of 10 times it tangles in the prop at climb out somewhere
somehow. Instant that plane straightens out and becomes so controllable an
amateur can control it.In other words instead of a chute that can
carry the entire plane down, perhaps we should consider a much lighter
drogue chute. Stall/spins and loss of control in IMC is far more common
that aeroplanes breaking up. I believe a properly sized and positioned
drogue chute could get the plane kinda flying without the need to do much
else, perhaps just keep ball in center, can steer with just rudder and
flare at the very end. What's your thoughts? a side benefit would be you
would probably have a good attachment point to tow up a light weight
glider. May be able to size so you could fly with power?? Could have it
releasable?? Could tow a mini banner too?? Ya know in WW1 I think Germans
had a parachute, or personal slowemdown device that was essential nothing
more than a long roll of toilet paper, I forget how wide but it was a roll
of fabric you were attached to, hmm. Anyone have a model Europoa so
testing can begin immediate? Start small and work way up.
Ron
Parigoris
Message 10
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Richard, You are actually required to keep a steam age altimeter & ASI if
you convert to glass so that won't be a source for you, but I would be
surprised if you cannot adjust it. My Gliding club has a machine for
checking altimeters at the time of C of A renewal and as I remember it they
were all expected to be adjustable. Regards, David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Iddon" <riddon@sent.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 12:01 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Altimeter
> My altimeter seems to be reading about 150ft. too high. I wondered if
> anyone who has upgraded to a glass panel may have their old steam driven
> one for sale? Please contact me off forum if so.
>
> Richard Iddon.
> G-RIXS
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Emergency parachutes, opinions? |
Hi Frans,
Mike Duane said "I am not a skydiver.....that's the wife's fortay. I have
built my Europa and will probably do the first flight and flight testing. I
have purchased an slim backpack emergency parachute and will put up with
it's uncomfortable seating while I am flying off my 40 hours and putting my
project through it's paces. If the unforseen happens then I would prefer to
try and fight to get out of the aircraft rather than just sit and wait for
the ground to come up at me. I figure if I have an inflight fire and don't
have a parachute, then I don't have any other option than to stay with the
plane. I remember a movie about WWI flyers that carried a pistol for just
such events. So along that train of thought. I would prefer to have a
parachute, contemplate my options, and decide whether or not to use it,
rather than not have the choice. So I guess it's personal opinion."
I have to agree with him, and a helmet would be useful too - all my comments
ignored the test flying phase of flying as we don't have quite the same
system in UK.
To answer your points, Frans:
1. Jump planes only throttle back to 80-100 knots in the drop run in, so not
getting the Europa back to stall speed won't matter at all.
2. My guess is that having your plane controls welded by lightning is quite
a low probability......albeit a bit unfortunate when it does happen....
3. Just to be clear, I'm not saying you will definitely be seriously injured
landing in rough terrain .... I just think you will more often be less
injured steering the airframe into trees, river, rocks etc and letting it
take the impact instead of you.
4. Round chute landings are compared with jumping off a 12 foot high wall -
if you carry out a properly executed Parachute Landing Fall (PLF) then you
can minimise the risk of injury, but if you cannot control whether you are
landing in trees, water, cliff faces etc, then you may not always be able to
carry out a PLF.
5. I have done just one round chute jump in a controlled environment and I
wouldn't volunteer to repeat it.
6. The ideal is to get some training if you believe that using a parachute
is an option you would prefer. If you can jump with a square, steerable
reserve, then a lot of these risks reduce significantly. Also, the risk of
not deploying your parachute properly is much reduced if you are trained. I
learned to skydive initally because I flew hang gliders and paragliders a
lot and I wanted the training and confidence to use my reserve. But hang
gliders and paragliders don't give you much protection in a crash so it
wasn't quite the same reasoning as I would apply to flying a light aircraft.
And of course, are you going to get your passenger trained to skydive as
well....?
I have flown aerobatics briefly (just spin avoidance / recovery training for
PPL) and been required to wear a parachute and you can get over the comfort
factor if you have to. It is a question of personal risk assessment as Mike
says. My personal view (in a world where UK builders aren't allowed much
freedom to change the original Europa design) is that all of the Europa
accidents I have heard of so far in my few years on this forum, have
occurred on take or landing when a parachute wouldn 't help. However, other
builders may have much better knowledge than me on that front.
Good luck with your personal risk assessment!
RCC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman
Sent: 15 December 2009 00:24
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions?
--> <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Richard Churchill-Coleman wrote:
> --> <richard.churchill-coleman@sky.com>
>
> Hi Frans,
>
> I'm one of those rare pilots who also enjoys baling out of serviceable
> aircraft as a pastime.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.
One reason I asked was that I heard the story of one Dutch homebuilder who
was found in mounteneous terrain. Examination revealed that he got struck by
lightning, because the controls where welded and could not be moved.
Estimates where that he had been a passenger in his own airplane for some 20
minutes until he finally hit a mountain. He was alive until the moment of
impact.
I imagine that he would have had a fair chance if he would have had a
parachute. So this triggered the idea that parachutes might be a "must have"
option.
So, hence my question about the odds of getting out in level flight at
cruise speed. Your suggestion about slowing down to almost stall speed
doesn't apply here, but I guess the idea remains the same. ;-)
I further assumed that a jump out over rough terrain (rocks, trees) would be
a walk away, but apparently it is not that easy. So I underestimate the
landing speed and/or forward speed. Could you give me an estimate about
these?
If bailing out over rough terrain does not improve chances of survival very
much then a significant part of the reasons to consider a parachute is gone.
Same with a water landing, you took that away as well. ;-)
> Given the choice, I would spend the money and the weight allowance on
> a fire extinguisher, first aid kit and EPIRB instead.
Ok, guess you are right. I will think about it some more.
Thanks!
Frans
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07:52:00
Message 12
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Richard,
Most analogue altimeters adjust in a similar way. Set the altimeter reading
to your current altitude, at the side of the millibar setting knob you
should see a small screw. Loosen the screw a couple of turns until you are
able to pull out the adjusting knob (normally about 2 mm) set the current
QNH, push the knob back in and re-secure the locking screw. The method is
bit like pulling out the adjuster on your wrist watch to adjust the time.
Regards,
Mike
Do not archive
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Iddon
Sent: 15 December 2009 12:02
Subject: Europa-List: Altimeter
My altimeter seems to be reading about 150ft. too high. I wondered if
anyone who has upgraded to a glass panel may have their old steam driven one
for sale? Please contact me off forum if so.
Richard Iddon.
G-RIXS
Message 13
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David. Ah. OK. Actually I went back to the offending object to see if
it was adjustable and discovered that in fact it was 2000 ft out, not
200!! Shows how long I have been out of the loop. Looks like I will have
to splash out on a new one.
Richard Iddon G-RIXS
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Altimeter
<davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Richard, You are actually required to keep a steam age altimeter & ASI
if
you convert to glass so that won't be a source for you, but I would be
surprised if you cannot adjust it. My Gliding club has a machine for
checking altimeters at the time of C of A renewal and as I remember it
they
were all expected to be adjustable. Regards, David
Message 14
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Richard, If you are that far out it suggests to me that you have a problem
in the plumbing - something like a solitary bee nesting up the pitot, who
has sealed the other end up to stop draughts!? Regards, David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Iddon" <riddon@sent.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 7:38 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Altimeter
>
> David. Ah. OK. Actually I went back to the offending object to see if
> it was adjustable and discovered that in fact it was 2000 ft out, not
> 200!! Shows how long I have been out of the loop. Looks like I will have
> to splash out on a new one.
>
> Richard Iddon G-RIXS
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Altimeter
>
> <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>
> Richard, You are actually required to keep a steam age altimeter & ASI
> if
> you convert to glass so that won't be a source for you, but I would be
> surprised if you cannot adjust it. My Gliding club has a machine for
> checking altimeters at the time of C of A renewal and as I remember it
> they
> were all expected to be adjustable. Regards, David
>
>
>
Message 15
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Richard,
Why not just reset the subscale. Details at:
http://www.falcongauge.com/PDFs/instructions/altimeteradjust.pdf
You don't have to take the instrument out of the panel for this.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Iddon
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 12:01 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Altimeter
My altimeter seems to be reading about 150ft. too high. I wondered if
anyone who has upgraded to a glass panel may have their old steam driven
one for sale? Please contact me off forum if so.
Richard Iddon.
G-RIXS
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? |
Richard Churchill-Coleman wrote:
> I have to agree with him, and a helmet would be useful too - all my comments
> ignored the test flying phase of flying as we don't have quite the same
> system in UK.
We have no mandatory test flying phase in the Netherlands. I will
receive my papers (hopefully) soon, and the rest is up to me. I can
start my world tour right at the first flight if I want to. ;-)
> 2. My guess is that having your plane controls welded by lightning is quite
> a low probability......albeit a bit unfortunate when it does happen....
I agree with you on this. There are some risks involved with flying, and
this one is one to be taken.
> 3. Just to be clear, I'm not saying you will definitely be seriously injured
> landing in rough terrain .... I just think you will more often be less
> injured steering the airframe into trees, river, rocks etc and letting it
> take the impact instead of you.
I have not so much confidence in a Europa taking much of an impact. A
Cessna is great in this respect, but a Europa, well, I guess the nose
shatters in pieces when it hits the first rock, and then the occupants
are the ones to take the next hit. Glass plaines don't bend or get
diverted from an obstacle, they just scatter into pieces and the
remainder continues its way.
> 4. Round chute landings are compared with jumping off a 12 foot high wall -
Wow. Hmm, I'm not sure whether I would survive that even in my own level
backyard, let alone on "uneven" surface. Now I start to understand why
you think that staying with the airplane would probably be a better option.
> 6. The ideal is to get some training if you believe that using a parachute
> is an option you would prefer. If you can jump with a square, steerable
> reserve, then a lot of these risks reduce significantly.
The emergency pilot chutes I'm aware off are of another type. Getting
something bigger, heavier, is not an option, even not in our hi-top Europa.
> Also, the risk of
> not deploying your parachute properly is much reduced if you are trained.
Ah. So it is not just a matter of pulling the rip cord, as suggested in
the ads? Really, if this is sounding hilarious to you, I'm a complete
novice on this subject. I thought it is just a matter of pulling the
cord and then waiting in some sort of comfort while slowly and gently
descending.
> And of course, are you going to get your passenger trained to skydive as
> well....?
I will share playing the passenger role with my wife, who also has a
PPL, helped to build the plane, and logically, we both would be wearing
a parachute, or not at all. ;-) The occasions where we will be flying
with other passengers will be neglectable.
> It is a question of personal risk assessment as Mike says.
I fully agree.
We participate in a multiple of community forums, from horseback riding
to flying, but I can't deny that the Europa forum is the only forum
where it is somewhat normal practice that once in a while a participant
loses his life while exercising his hobby. So, lots of our efforts go
into minimizing the risks associated with flying. Wearing parachutes
could be one thing to reduce some of the risks. But of course,
everything has a price. If wearing a parachute doesn't give much
reduction of risk (as it looks now), then we will forget about it. At
the moment it seems like we are going to do without it. ;-)
> My personal view (in a world where UK builders aren't allowed much
> freedom to change the original Europa design) is that all of the Europa
> accidents I have heard of so far in my few years on this forum, have
> occurred on take or landing when a parachute wouldn 't help.
I think you are right on this.
Thanks,
Frans
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