---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/16/09: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:46 AM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Michel AUVRAY) 2. 05:00 AM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (William Daniell) 3. 09:45 AM - Re: Altimeter (John & Paddy Wigney) 4. 09:57 AM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 5. 09:58 AM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Fred Klein) 6. 10:07 AM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (rampil) 7. 10:51 AM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (William Daniell) 8. 12:26 PM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (Raimo Toivio) 9. 09:33 PM - Eat, sleep and speak Europa (rparigoris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:46:15 AM PST US From: Michel AUVRAY Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? Remi Guerner a crit : > <<<<>>>>>> > > Hi all, > > Regarding whole airplane emergency parachutes there are some > interresting videos on the BRS web site. One of them shows a RANS S6 > deploying its parachute after hitting the tow rope of a glider tow > over Gap airfield in south east France. > http://brsparachutes.com/files/brsparachutes/files/cnn_off_air.wmv > On the same video there is a parachute deployment on a Cirrus. They > say both the Cirrus and the Rans were back in the air after repair. > > Remi Guerner > > * > > > * Salut Rmi, J'ai vu plusieurs de ces vidos, et j'ai mme assist un test de BRS, le bonhomme s'en sort mais l'appareil est gnralement dtruit ce n'est pas forcment visible mais la structure est morte et c'tait avec un cessna 152 rput solide, il est all directement la casse. Gnralement la vitesse de descente avoisine les 7 8 m/s. Mme 5 m/s l'appareil a de trs gros dommages. Pour obtenir 6 m/s il faut environ 1m de tissu pour 1kg de charge soit pour un europa 621 kg au moins 600m ce qui pse plus de 50kg,et mme cette vitesse l'appareil est trs endommag Tout le reste est du marketing relativement bidon. L'autre solution est le parachute personnel, mais l il faut vacuer l'appareil, car dja sortir d'un Europa en vol stable cela ne doit pas tre simple, mais s'il est en mauvaise configuration c'est une autre affaire. Le parachute sur l'avion reste la solution la meilleure pour sauver sa peau mais surement pas pour sauver l'avion condition toutefois que le dispositif ait t implant lors de l'tude de l'appareil intgrant le centrage. Maintenant compte tenu de l'abaissement lors de la squence d'ouverture si on vole 1000ft c'est fichu. Les tests raliss par tous les dispositifs le sont 5000ft. Mais le rve du parachute subsiste, la plupart des vidos sont ralises avec des ULM ou avions allgs au maximum naturellement. Personnellement je ne revolerai pas sur un appareil ayant subi un tel impact, car aucun appareil au monde n'est conu et tudi pour cela. A+ -- --|-- --------(*)-------- Michel AUVRAY mau11@free.fr ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:00:05 AM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? Why would bailing out of a Erupoa be particularly dangerous? Many pilots bailed out in the last war and survived - even flew the next day. I have made many jumps on round chutes and yes it is a bit of a bump on landing but I am not sure 12 wall is correct mind you i was a but younger then. And yes people do hurt themselves landing on rough terrain but on the whole it is confined to broken ankles. I seem to recall that the minimum operational jump height out of a C130 is 600 trainig jump height is 800, that said most of my jumps were night jumps because I had my eyes shut. I certainly plan to wear a chute when testing and a crash hat ....oh and some decent boots to reduce the possibliity of ankle injury. Will Frans Veldman wrote: > > Richard Churchill-Coleman wrote: > > >> I have to agree with him, and a helmet would be useful too - all my comments >> ignored the test flying phase of flying as we don't have quite the same >> system in UK. >> > > We have no mandatory test flying phase in the Netherlands. I will > receive my papers (hopefully) soon, and the rest is up to me. I can > start my world tour right at the first flight if I want to. ;-) > > >> 2. My guess is that having your plane controls welded by lightning is quite >> a low probability......albeit a bit unfortunate when it does happen.... >> > > I agree with you on this. There are some risks involved with flying, and > this one is one to be taken. > > >> 3. Just to be clear, I'm not saying you will definitely be seriously injured >> landing in rough terrain .... I just think you will more often be less >> injured steering the airframe into trees, river, rocks etc and letting it >> take the impact instead of you. >> > > I have not so much confidence in a Europa taking much of an impact. A > Cessna is great in this respect, but a Europa, well, I guess the nose > shatters in pieces when it hits the first rock, and then the occupants > are the ones to take the next hit. Glass plaines don't bend or get > diverted from an obstacle, they just scatter into pieces and the > remainder continues its way. > > >> 4. Round chute landings are compared with jumping off a 12 foot high wall - >> > > Wow. Hmm, I'm not sure whether I would survive that even in my own level > backyard, let alone on "uneven" surface. Now I start to understand why > you think that staying with the airplane would probably be a better option. > > >> 6. The ideal is to get some training if you believe that using a parachute >> is an option you would prefer. If you can jump with a square, steerable >> reserve, then a lot of these risks reduce significantly. >> > > The emergency pilot chutes I'm aware off are of another type. Getting > something bigger, heavier, is not an option, even not in our hi-top Europa. > > >> Also, the risk of >> not deploying your parachute properly is much reduced if you are trained. >> > > Ah. So it is not just a matter of pulling the rip cord, as suggested in > the ads? Really, if this is sounding hilarious to you, I'm a complete > novice on this subject. I thought it is just a matter of pulling the > cord and then waiting in some sort of comfort while slowly and gently > descending. > > >> And of course, are you going to get your passenger trained to skydive as >> well....? >> > > I will share playing the passenger role with my wife, who also has a > PPL, helped to build the plane, and logically, we both would be wearing > a parachute, or not at all. ;-) The occasions where we will be flying > with other passengers will be neglectable. > > >> It is a question of personal risk assessment as Mike says. >> > > I fully agree. > We participate in a multiple of community forums, from horseback riding > to flying, but I can't deny that the Europa forum is the only forum > where it is somewhat normal practice that once in a while a participant > loses his life while exercising his hobby. So, lots of our efforts go > into minimizing the risks associated with flying. Wearing parachutes > could be one thing to reduce some of the risks. But of course, > everything has a price. If wearing a parachute doesn't give much > reduction of risk (as it looks now), then we will forget about it. At > the moment it seems like we are going to do without it. ;-) > > >> My personal view (in a world where UK builders aren't allowed much >> freedom to change the original Europa design) is that all of the Europa >> accidents I have heard of so far in my few years on this forum, have >> occurred on take or landing when a parachute wouldn 't help. >> > > I think you are right on this. > > Thanks, > Frans > > > . > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:59 AM PST US From: John & Paddy Wigney Subject: Europa-List: Re: Altimeter Hi Richard, I think this could be one of those cases of "you get what you pay for". You may or may not be aware that Wultrad/Falcon equipment is Chinese. Anyway, there is some discussion of altimeter problems at http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.homebuilt/browse_thread/thread/2b9ec87c6a82fb43 This is hearsay but I understand that maintenance shops in the US will not touch these items. Another story is that ASI dial markings have been individually custom painted to match the gauge calibration rather than calibrating the gauge to match the markings. Cheers, John ORIGINAL MESSAGE From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Altimeter Brian, It is a Wultrad I believe. It has been perfectly fine for five years but since the aircraft has been laid up for a while, it seems to be over reading. My house is approx 50ft. above sea level but the altimeter is reading 200 at todays pressure from local airfields. Richard.. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Davies Sent: 15 December 2009 12:21 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Altimeter Hi Richard, Most altimeters have a way of adjusting the link between the pressure setting and the altitude indication. This does not normally require any dismantling of the altimeter. What Make/type of altimeter do you have? Regards Brian Davies From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Iddon Sent: 15 December 2009 12:02 Subject: Europa-List: Altimeter My altimeter seems to be reading about 150ft. too high. I wondered if anyone who has upgraded to a glass panel may have their old steam driven one for sale? Please contact me off forum if so. Richard Iddon. G-RIXS ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:48 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? Just make sure you can work the pedals safely with boots on! A boot stuck b etween pedal and fuselage side might cause an incident.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: William Daniell =0A=0A=0AI certainly plan to wear a chute when testing and a crash hat ....oh=0Aand some decent boots to reduce the possibliity of ankle inju ry.=0A=0AWill=0A=0A=0A=0AFrans Veldman wrote: =0A--> Europa-List message po sted by: Frans Veldman =0A>=0A>Richard Churchill- Coleman wrote:=0A>=0A> =0A>I have to agree with him, and a helmet would be useful too - all my comments=0A>>ignored the test flying phase of flying a s we don't have quite the same=0A>>system in UK.=0A>>=0A>We have no mandato ry test flying phase in the Netherlands. I will=0A>receive my papers (hopef ully) soon, and the rest is up to me. I can=0A>start my world tour right at the first flight if I want to. ;-)=0A>=0A>=0A>2. My guess is that having y our plane controls welded by lightning is quite=0A>>a low probability...... albeit a bit unfortunate when it does happen....=0A>>=0A>I agree with you o n this. There are some risks involved with flying, and=0A>this one is one t o be taken.=0A>=0A>=0A>3. Just to be clear, I'm not saying you will definit ely be seriously injured=0A>>landing in rough terrain .... I just think yo u will more often be less=0A>>injured steering the airframe into trees, riv er, rocks etc and letting it=0A>>take the impact instead of you.=0A>>=0A>I have not so much confidence in a Europa taking much of an impact. A=0A>Cess na is great in this respect, but a Europa, well, I guess the nose=0A>shatte rs in pieces when it hits the first rock, and then the occupants=0A>are the ones to take the next hit. Glass plaines don't bend or get=0A>diverted fro m an obstacle, they just scatter into pieces and the=0A>remainder continues its way.=0A>=0A>=0A>4. Round chute landings are compared with jumping off a 12 foot high wall -=0A>>=0A>Wow. Hmm, I'm not sure whether I would surviv e that even in my own level=0A>backyard, let alone on "uneven" surface. Now I start to understand why=0A>you think that staying with the airplane woul d probably be a better option.=0A>=0A>=0A>6. The ideal is to get some train ing if you believe that using a parachute=0A>>is an option you would prefer . If you can jump with a square, steerable=0A>>reserve, then a lot of thes e risks reduce significantly.=0A>>=0A>The emergency pilot chutes I'm aware off are of another type. Getting=0A>something bigger, heavier, is not an op tion, even not in our hi-top Europa.=0A>=0A>=0A>Also, the risk of=0A>>not d eploying your parachute properly is much reduced if you are trained.=0A>> =0A>Ah. So it is not just a matter of pulling the rip cord, as suggested in =0A>the ads? Really, if this is sounding hilarious to you, I'm a complete =0A>novice on this subject. I thought it is just a matter of pulling the=0A >cord and then waiting in some sort of comfort while slowly and gently=0A>d escending.=0A>=0A>=0A>And of course, are you going to get your passenger tr ained to skydive as=0A>>well....?=0A>>=0A>I will share playing the passenge r role with my wife, who also has a=0A>PPL, helped to build the plane, and logically, we both would be wearing=0A>a parachute, or not at all. ;-) The occasions where we will be flying=0A>with other passengers will be neglecta ble.=0A>=0A>=0A>It is a question of personal risk assessment as Mike says. =0A>>=0A>I fully agree.=0A>We participate in a multiple of community forums , from horseback riding=0A>to flying, but I can't deny that the Europa foru m is the only forum=0A>where it is somewhat normal practice that once in a while a participant=0A>loses his life while exercising his hobby. So, lots of our efforts go=0A>into minimizing the risks associated with flying. Wear ing parachutes=0A>could be one thing to reduce some of the risks. But of co urse,=0A>everything has a price. If wearing a parachute doesn't give much =0A>reduction of risk (as it looks now), then we will forget about it. At =0A>the moment it seems like we are going to do without it. ;-)=0A>=0A>=0A> My personal view (in a world where UK builders aren't allowed much=0A>>free dom to change the original Europa design) is that all of the Europa=0A>>acc idents I have heard of so far in my few years on this forum, have=0A>>occur red on take or landing when a parachute wouldn 't help.=0A>>=0A>I think you are right on this.=0A>=0A>Thanks,=0A>Frans=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>.=0A>=0A ============ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:58:13 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? On Dec 16, 2009, at 4:56 AM, William Daniell wrote: > Many pilots bailed out in the last war and survived Quite true of course...youngsters in their teens & twenties...when I too was a bit more resilient and agile...today, not so much...irrespective of the motivation. Fred do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:07:19 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? From: "rampil" Hi Franz, With all due respect, your need for a parachute of any type will be reduced by more than 90% if you just stay out of your Europa when: There is ice in the sky (or nasty clouds ) There is ice in your Ethanol boosted drink (emphasis on ethanol drink) There is insufficient fuel in your tank. I would also stay away from reverse flow akro like tail slides. Europas are not known for falling in pieces (except in a single case of poor construction), so just fly conservatively and enjoy! -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277753#277753 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:42 AM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? good point ill use my dainty dancing boots then... GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: > Just make sure you can work the pedals safely with boots on! A boot > stuck between pedal and fuselage side might cause an incident. > Graham > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* William Daniell > ** > > I > ** > ** ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:26:03 PM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? > On Dec 16, 2009, at 4:56 AM, William Daniell wrote: > > > Many pilots bailed out in the last war and survived ...and at least one of them (extremely lucky one) bailed out w/o a parachute and survived alive. He dropped into a snowy swamp his ass first. That was during Winter War between Finland and Russian. He was a Finnish pilot flying Brewster (that was NOT BW372 and do NOT try it at home!). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War http://www.warbirdforum.com/bw372.htm Raimo Toivio OH-XRT ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:33:07 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Eat, sleep and speak Europa From: "rparigoris" My wife has been complaining for some time, and rightly so that I sleep and speak too much Europa. My build partner Wayne presented me with a holiday gift that will now allow me to eat Europa! Happy holidays Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277850#277850 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/bread_3_small_197.jpg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.