---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 12/17/09: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:48 AM - Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions? (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 2. 04:15 AM - Altimeter (Remi Guerner) 3. 06:50 AM - Re: Altimeter (Richard Iddon) 4. 07:58 AM - Re: Eat, sleep and speak Europa (Bob Borger) 5. 08:25 AM - Re: Eat, sleep and speak Europa (Peter Zutrauen) 6. 08:52 AM - Re: Eat, sleep and speak Europa (Bob Borger) 7. 09:31 AM - Europa- Fresh air vents (Bob Fairall) 8. 10:06 AM - Jumping out of a Europa and parachutes (Myron Haluschak) 9. 10:21 AM - Re: Europa- Fresh air vents (jimpuglise@comcast.net) 10. 10:41 AM - Re: Jumping out of a Europa and parachutes (David Joyce) 11. 11:41 AM - Europa 4s (Raimo Toivio) 12. 12:01 PM - Re: Europa- Fresh air vents () 13. 12:55 PM - Re: Europa- Fresh air vents (Duncan & Ami McFadyean) 14. 01:06 PM - Re: Europa- Fresh air vents (A B Milne) 15. 04:21 PM - Re: Europa- Fresh air vents (rampil) 16. 07:03 PM - Re: Re: Europa- Fresh air vents (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 17. 07:48 PM - Re: Europa- Fresh air vents (Robert Borger) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:59 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, opinions? Michel=0Athat looks interesting, why not resend in English?=0Aregards of th e season, I will be in the hills near Malaga, trying to unforget my espanol !=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Michel AU VRAY =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, 16 December, 2009 10:36:19=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Emergency parachutes, o fr>=0A=0ARemi Guerner a =E9crit :=0A> <<<<>>>>>>=0A> Hi all,=0A> Regarding whole airplane emerge ncy parachutes there are some interresting videos on the BRS web site. One of them shows a RANS S6 deploying its parachute after hitting the tow rope of a glider tow over Gap airfield in south east France.=0A> http://brsparac hutes.com/files/brsparachutes/files/cnn_off_air.wmv=0A> On the same video t here is a parachute deployment on a Cirrus. They say both the Cirrus and th e Rans were back in the air after repair.=0A> Remi Guerner *=0A> =0A> =0A > *=0ASalut R=E9mi,=0AJ'ai vu plusieurs de ces vid=E9os, et j'ai m=EAme ass ist=E9 =E0 un test de BRS, le bonhomme s'en sort mais l'appareil est g=E9n =E9ralement d=E9truit ce n'est pas forc=E9ment visible mais la structure es t morte et c'=E9tait avec un cessna 152 r=E9put=E9 solide, il est all=E9 di rectement =E0 la casse.=0A=0AG=E9n=E9ralement la vitesse de descente avoisi ne les 7 =E0 8 m/s. M=EAme =E0 5 m/s l'appareil a de tr=E8s gros dommages. =0A=0APour obtenir 6 m/s il faut environ 1m=B2 de tissu pour 1kg de charge soit pour un europa =E0 621 kg au moins 600m=B2 ce qui p=E8se plus de 50kg, et m=EAme =E0 cette vitesse l'appareil est tr=E8s endommag=E9=0A=0ATout le reste est du marketing relativement bidon.=0A=0AL'autre solution est le par achute personnel, mais l=E0 il faut =E9vacuer l'appareil, car d=E9ja sortir d'un Europa en vol stable cela ne doit pas =EAtre simple, mais s'il est en mauvaise configuration c'est une autre affaire.=0ALe parachute sur l'avion reste la solution la meilleure pour sauver sa peau mais surement pas pour sauver l'avion =E0 condition toutefois que le dispositif ait =E9t=E9 implan t=E9 lors de l'=E9tude de l'appareil int=E9grant le centrage.=0AMaintenant compte tenu de l'abaissement lors de la s=E9quence d'ouverture si on vole =E0 1000ft c'est fichu.=0ALes tests r=E9alis=E9s par tous les dispositifs l e sont =E0 5000ft.=0A=0AMais le r=EAve du parachute subsiste, la plupart de s vid=E9os sont r=E9alis=E9es avec des ULM ou avions all=E9g=E9s au maximum naturellement.=0APersonnellement je ne revolerai pas sur un appareil ayant subi un tel impact, car aucun appareil au monde n'est con=E7u et =E9tudi =E9 pour cela.=0AA+=0A=0A-- =0A --|--=0A--------(*)-------- Michel AUV ================== ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:10 AM PST US From: "Remi Guerner" Subject: Europa-List: Altimeter Regarding altimeter errors, I had an interresting experience last month: I had removed my instrument panel module for working on my autopilot installation. As my altimeter (United) has been consistently showing a 2 to 2.5 millibars error for the last few years, I took this opportunity to remove it and take it to an instrument shop for repair. After overhaul I checked it was ok, then I install it back on the panel. The next day, I was surprised to discover that the altimeter was wrong about 4 millibars, worse than before the overhaul! I removed it again from the panel, and was ready to take it back to the instrument shop when I found that the indication was now correct. After some thinking I realized what happened: my instrument panel module is fitted with quick disconnect fittings for both the static and pitot lines.Those fittings have a shut-off valve. Therefore, when the panel is removed, the altimeter is not connected to the ambiant static pressure anymore, and a change in the atmospheric pressure will not be seen by the altimeter, but, due to the thermal expansion of the air trapped inside the line, any change of the temperature will! Most Europas are fitted with those quick disconnect fittings at the port wing root. So when your fuselage is at home on the trailer, do not be fooled by the altimeter indication! Richard, Might be the reason of your problem. Please let us know. Regards Remi Guerner <<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:07 AM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Altimeter Hi Remi. No. I took the altimeter out of the panel and completely disconnected it and it is still showing 2000ft. at sea level. The message that John Wigney sent me pointed to a discussion site which explains that these altimeters are prone to failure. I have now got another one which I hope will be OK. Thanks for all the posts. Richard Iddon G-RIXS -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Remi Guerner Sent: 17 December 2009 12:12 Subject: Europa-List: Altimeter Regarding altimeter errors, I had an interresting experience last month: I had removed my instrument panel module for working on my autopilot installation. As my altimeter (United) has been consistently showing a 2 to 2.5 millibars error for the last few years, I took this opportunity to remove it and take it to an instrument shop for repair. After overhaul I checked it was ok, then I install it back on the panel. The next day, I was surprised to discover that the altimeter was wrong about 4 millibars, worse than before the overhaul! I removed it again from the panel, and was ready to take it back to the instrument shop when I found that the indication was now correct. After some thinking I realized what happened: my instrument panel module is fitted with quick disconnect fittings for both the static and pitot lines.Those fittings have a shut-off valve. Therefore, when the panel is removed, the altimeter is not connected to the ambiant static pressure anymore, and a change in the atmospheric pressure will not be seen by the altimeter, but, due to the thermal expansion of the air trapped inside the line, any change of the temperature will! Most Europas are fitted with those quick disconnect fittings at the port wing root. So when your fuselage is at home on the trailer, do not be fooled by the altimeter indication! Richard, Might be the reason of your problem. Please let us know. Regards Remi Guerner Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 12/16/09 19:52:00 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:08 AM PST US From: Bob Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Eat, sleep and speak Europa Ron, Maybe I should address Matt on this, but I get a 404 error when I click on the Attachment link. And I sure want to see the picture! Bob Borger On Wednesday, December 16, 2009, at 11:30PM, "rparigoris" wrote: > >My wife has been complaining for some time, and rightly so that I sleep and speak too much Europa. >My build partner Wayne presented me with a holiday gift that will now allow me to eat Europa! >Happy holidays >Ron Parigoris > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277850#277850 > > >Attachments: > >http://forums.matronics.com//files/bread_3_small_197.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:10 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Eat, sleep and speak Europa From: Peter Zutrauen here you go :-) On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Bob Borger wrote: > > Ron, > > Maybe I should address Matt on this, but I get a 404 error when I click on > the Attachment link. > > And I sure want to see the picture! > > Bob Borger > > On Wednesday, December 16, 2009, at 11:30PM, "rparigoris" < > rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote: > rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> > > > >My wife has been complaining for some time, and rightly so that I sleep > and speak too much Europa. > >My build partner Wayne presented me with a holiday gift that will now > allow me to eat Europa! > >Happy holidays > >Ron Parigoris > > > > > > > > > >Read this topic online here: > > > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277850#277850 > > > > > > > > > >Attachments: > > > >http://forums.matronics.com//files/bread_3_small_197.jpg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:27 AM PST US From: Bob Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Eat, sleep and speak Europa Peter, Thanks! Bob On Thursday, December 17, 2009, at 10:21AM, "Peter Zutrauen" wrote: > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:13 AM PST US From: Bob Fairall Subject: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents I'm progressing well on my second Europa (kit 494) and exploring the optio ns for cockpit fresh air. My existing Europa has the plastic adjustable NACA duct type air inlets by pilot and passenger's knees, but these are not particularly effective. I have heard of and seen a number of roof entry fresh air systems which I gather are very effective, but I recall reading somewhere that cutting the roof can compromise the strength of the cockpit module. All (UK) LAA approvable suggestions gratefully received. Thanks Bob Fairall (G-BXLK, mono classic, 400 hours and for sale, & G-CBXW) ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:50 AM PST US From: "Myron Haluschak" Subject: Europa-List: Jumping out of a Europa and parachutes Hello All: Firstly Merry Christmas to all, and best wishes for a safe and happy New Year. I have been following the discussions regarding the parachute and jumping out of planes. I'm hoping my two cents will add another perspective to the thoughts presented.When I first received my kit, adding a BRS was something I considered doing, knowing I would have to redesign and make structural alterations for the fit of the chute myself. After discussions with BRS and Cirrus reps., I decided it was a task beyond my scope. The Cirrus breakaway system, ie., the means by which the chute leaves the "channel" that the shrouds and lines rest in, is a complex structure. I saw a chute before it was hidden from view, and it was clear that alot of money, testing and re-testing went into the final product...not practical for me as I only have, and plan to have, one hull to play with. Is it impossible? Certainly not, but before I was about to turn this endeavour into an experiment, I had decided the old fashioned way would have to do. Jumping out is the last thing you want to do, but in certain situations it may be your last plausible means to save yourself. I have jumped out of several types, round and square airfoils, as part of my military training in the F-16, and some recreational jumps out of Cubs, Cessnas, Otters, etc., and what I have seen is, a planned evacuation, even under optimal conditions can go wrong quickly. Can you remember the last time you tried to get into a Cub? It wasn't easy for sure, especially if you are new to it...now try getting out with a full harness, from the back seat. Of course every plane is different, and on that occasion, conditions were optimal, the attitude was upright, speed slow, and a fairly big door, with a pilot in control. Cessnas are better but also pose their own set of circumstances. The bigger, the easier the egress is. I don't have a flying Europa to jump out of yet, but have flown in several. And one thing I noticed was the relative ease getting in, but afterwards, in the seating position that we all occupy, it is not that easy to move. It was one thing I liked about the Europa to begin with, but because it was rather restricted, I knew it would be a bailing out issue if I were ever in that situation. Getting out wouldn't be impossible, just difficult, especially fighting the effects gravity now has when your attitude is not optimal, and you don't have a pilot holding her steady for the egress. There's one factor that I cannot account for and that's the adrenalin factor for when there's a real sitaution...it's not one you can simulate very well. I'm sure it would add some extra motivation to get out, but it's not something anyone can unilaterally say will get you out. Bare in mind, as adrenalin goes up, your cognitive and rational thought process decreases, which is why some people may say, "whatever made me do or say that?" Whatever the situation and risk involved, we have chosen a pastime that has grave inherent risks, balanced off by the many great experiences it also carries. It's clear a BRS could save you in a dire sitaution, but from a realistic perspective, a personal parachute seems the best solution, and even then there are inherent risks in getting out. An egress that was described in an earlier post made it sound so easy, get out of the cockpit, straddle the rail and climb out onto the wing and either slip off the end or out toward the tip... that's alot to bite off in the real world, under a life or death scenario. With that said, I would likely wear my personal chute for the early phases of flight, but there comes a time when you should leave the thing on the ground. It's not my intent to oppose a view or suggest what I feel is the only right thing to do, what I would suggest is know YOUR plane and your personal limitations and plan accordingly. You may find a chute is for you or not. One day when we have a BRS tested and mounted, life will be simple again. If I can suggest anything, practice emergency procedures until they are habitual, know your own plane as if it were your child, and don't be complacent with anything. It may not have you covered 100% all the time, but this is flying..pilots die with ejection seats too. Myron A046 XS monowheel ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:45 AM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents Bob- I have been working with Flight Crafters and have installed the system as I have progressed.=C2- They recommend an NACA duct mounted on the rudder. =C2- Attach a 2 inch stainless mesh to it to keep critters out and FLOX i t in.=C2- I used the mesh from a stainles steel tea strainer.=C2- Run =C2-2 inch SCAT tubing to a channel along the inside of the fuselage top. =C2- The channel is made from 2 X BID over a foam mold.=C2- The channel feeds the overhead panel where you can install eye vents.=C2- I used a s ingle very large eye vent from Stein Air in the back and another in the fro nt.=C2- How does it work?=C2- Can't say, I am not flying yet, but Bob h as installed a number and says they work just fine.=C2- He uses the small er eyeball vents.=C2- Also, AS sells an "ultimate vent" that you install directly under the rear corners of the windshield that supposedly works ver y well.=C2- The price of all the vents is bout $ 100 each.=C2- Jim Puglise A-283 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Fairall" Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 12:25:24 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents I=99m progressing well on my second Europa (kit 494) and exploring th e options for cockpit fresh air. My existing Europa has the plastic adjustable NACA duct type air inlets by pilot and passenger=99s knees, but these are not particularly effecti ve. I have heard of and seen a number of roof entry fresh air systems which I g ather are very effective, but I recall reading somewhere that cutting the r oof can compromise the strength of the cockpit module. All (UK) LAA approvable suggestions gratefully received. Thanks Bob Fairall (G-BXLK, mono classic, 400 hours and for sale, & G-CBXW) ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:42 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Jumping out of a Europa and parachutes Myron, If you want to get out of your Europa and it's still under control, then I suspect the answer is: Undo Canopy & Seat belt, Pause to make sure you didn't undo parachute straps by mistake, roll to inverted & push the stick forward. The rest is easy apart from learning to land a parachute. On the other hand if the plane is still under control and not on fire I would stay seated in virtually all circumstances and look to land it somewhere. Survival rates are high (over 90%) landing in trees or water and should be 100% if you just have a few hundred yds of flattish land. Having been following Europa crashes closely for over 10 years, I can only think of one situation where I might have welcomed a parachute and I strongly suspect it wouldn't have helped then anyway. I refer to the break up of William Mills' Classic Europa at what was probably the end of a Vne dive. He lost a wing and tailplane in mid air, but I suspect that the violent gyrations of a one winged plane would have made it impossible to exit the cockpit even if he had not been rendered unconscious. So personally, in spite of owning a parachute that came with my glider, I have never felt it worth taking in the Europa Merry Christmas & Happy Landings, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:47 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Europa-List: Europa 4s Europa community With this attached space view I wish you all wonderful holidays and a very safe new year. Raimo Toivio Finland OH-XRT #417 Mono ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:16 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents Hi Bob I have fitted a Pair of ultimate vent to my aircraft, They work very well, much better that the Europa NACA vents, The only problem is a small amount of weepage if flying in rain, In Spain this year with temperatures approaching 40C it was bearable, so I would recomend them. Ivor ---- Bob Fairall wrote: > I'm progressing well on my second Europa (kit 494) and exploring the options for cockpit fresh air. > > My existing Europa has the plastic adjustable NACA duct type air inlets by pilot and passenger's knees, but these are not particularly effective. > > I have heard of and seen a number of roof entry fresh air systems which I gather are very effective, but I recall reading somewhere that cutting the roof can compromise the strength of the cockpit module. > > All (UK) LAA approvable suggestions gratefully received. > > Thanks > > Bob Fairall (G-BXLK, mono classic, 400 hours and for sale, & G-CBXW) > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email > ______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:12 PM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents Bob, Try putting a small VGs infront of each of the entry-ramps to the "knee level" vents; these should then create an inflow that is more than adequate. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Fairall To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 5:25 PM Subject: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents I'm progressing well on my second Europa (kit 494) and exploring the options for cockpit fresh air. My existing Europa has the plastic adjustable NACA duct type air inlets by pilot and passenger's knees, but these are not particularly effective. I have heard of and seen a number of roof entry fresh air systems which I gather are very effective, but I recall reading somewhere that cutting the roof can compromise the strength of the cockpit module. All (UK) LAA approvable suggestions gratefully received. Thanks Bob Fairall (G-BXLK, mono classic, 400 hours and for sale, & G-CBXW) ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:17 PM PST US From: "A B Milne" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents For my second Europa I used the Aircraft Spruce supplied circular type in the same location as the NACA type in the kit. These operate in butterfly valve fashion, seal well and are controllable from a dribble of cold air that is enough to clear misting in the winter to a good blast from the lap upwards on hot days. If required a handy map can divert the airflow anywhere within reason. Alasdair Milne G-CEYK ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Fairall To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 5:25 PM Subject: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents I'm progressing well on my second Europa (kit 494) and exploring the options for cockpit fresh air. My existing Europa has the plastic adjustable NACA duct type air inlets by pilot and passenger's knees, but these are not particularly effective. I have heard of and seen a number of roof entry fresh air systems which I gather are very effective, but I recall reading somewhere that cutting the roof can compromise the strength of the cockpit module. All (UK) LAA approvable suggestions gratefully received. Thanks Bob Fairall (G-BXLK, mono classic, 400 hours and for sale, & G-CBXW) ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:26 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa- Fresh air vents From: "rampil" Hi All, I have been flying my bird for more than five years with Bob and Russell's design for a rudder to canopy overhead vents. I have to say its a great idea, that the fronto-lateral surface of the rudder should be a nice high pressure area to feed the duct, but in practice, in cruise, the air flow from these vents is barely perceptible. Far more ventilation occurs from the open armrest/fuel filter tunnel, probably from the flap slots (which should be negative pressure at first look!) If I felt like an improvement in this department, I would cover the external naca vent and just put a rotating vent in the door window. Just my opinion! Ira -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278001#278001 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:17 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa- Fresh air vents From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us We chose on our XS Mono to go the route of the Ultimate ventilators as sold by Aircraft Spruce. Although Vans sells units that are similar, they are smaller (and less expensive). Richards XS with conventional gear has Ultimate vebntilators and they work well. Here is our install with some pics at endwith location others have chosen: http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=36201 Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:49 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents From: Robert Borger Bob, I have elected to go with the ACS Ultimate Ventilators. In my 20 hours so far, they seem to do a reasonable job of providing airflow into the cockpit when you want it and cut it off effectively when you don't. You can see pics of the ventilators: http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=63921 and my installation: http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=66265&g2_page= 2 on my build web site. Check six, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL Aircraft Flying! 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Dec 17, 2009, at 11:25, Bob Fairall wrote: > I=92m progressing well on my second Europa (kit 494) and exploring the options for cockpit fresh air. > > My existing Europa has the plastic adjustable NACA duct type air inlets by pilot and passenger=92s knees, but these are not particularly effective. > > I have heard of and seen a number of roof entry fresh air systems which I gather are very effective, but I recall reading somewhere that cutting the roof can compromise the strength of the cockpit module. > > All (UK) LAA approvable suggestions gratefully received. > > Thanks > > Bob Fairall (G-BXLK, mono classic, 400 hours and for sale, & G-CBXW) > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.