---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/18/09: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:04 AM - Europa Cooling - Rotax 914. (Mike Parkin) 2. 12:14 AM - Re: Europa- Fresh air vents (Frans Veldman) 3. 12:34 AM - Re: Europa Cooling - Rotax 914. (Frans Veldman) 4. 12:54 AM - Re: Europa Cooling - Rotax 914. (Duncan & Ami McFadyean) 5. 01:09 AM - Re: Europa Cooling - Rotax 914. (Mike Parkin) 6. 01:46 AM - Re: Europa Cooling - Rotax 914. (Frans Veldman) 7. 04:48 AM - Re:Vents (teledynmcs@aol.com) 8. 05:10 AM - Europa- Fresh air vents (Remi Guerner) 9. 05:56 AM - Re: Re:Vents (Frans Veldman) 10. 12:12 PM - Re: Europa- Fresh air vents (Kevin Klinefelter) 11. 01:06 PM - Re: Europa- Fresh air vents (Garry) 12. 01:11 PM - Greece (David Joyce) 13. 01:59 PM - Re: Europa- Fresh air vents (Paul McAllister) 14. 02:51 PM - Re: Europa- Fresh air vents (Garry) 15. 02:51 PM - Re: Greece (Robert C Harrison) 16. 04:33 PM - Re: Europa- Fresh air vents (Robert Borger) 17. 11:31 PM - Re: Europa- Fresh air vents (duanefamly@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:43 AM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Europa-List: Europa Cooling - Rotax 914. For the Cowling experts among us...... I have been flight testing my cowl flap modification over the last week or so. The modification introduces a rotating door in the cooling duct aft of the water and oil radiators. The door can close the duct completely, operated by a MAC servo with a manual backup for emergency opening. On the ground after start with the door closed, the engine warms up quickly, solving the protracted wait for the minimum oil temperature for take-off which was previously the norm. However, when airborne, the effect of the door is surprisingly minimal. In the cruise at 130kts, with the flap open the temperatures are as usual sub 100 degs - 60 to 70 degs maybe. With the duct closed, the temperatures (water, oil, CHT) are only raised by about 10 degs. One advantage is it makes my cabin heater a little more effective. Now, on the ground, with the door closed, the engine would overheat but, in the air (winter temperatures remember) in the cruise over-heating is unlikely. Plainly, with ram air entering the upper cylinder cooling inlets, this is where the major cooling takes place. I must confess, the efficiency of the upper cooling surprised me!!! Comments? Regards, Mike ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:49 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents Bob Fairall wrote: > I have heard of and seen a number of roof entry fresh air systems > which I gather are very effective, but I recall reading somewhere > that cutting the roof can compromise the strength of the cockpit > module. Well, I guess we all know how to compensate for the loss of strength caused by cutting a small hole in 3mm foam with about one layer of bid on each side. ;-) The middle of the "bar" isn't anything more than that, so if it is structural at all, it is easy to compensate. I made a roof vent, besides ultimate ventilators on the fuselage sides, and I can tell you that on the ground at idle these roof vents already really blow. With anything more than idle I had to close them, as they produced so much air that it wasn't comfortable anymore. The advantage over a tail solution is that it is lighter in weight, the "duct" is considerably shorter so there is less friction hence more air, and, last but not least, it is not likely that anything from the exhaust makes it to the roof top (while I wouldn't guarantee that the tail won't receive some of the exhaust fumes). My roof vent consists of a small retractable scoop, just 5 cm wide, and opens up about 1,5 cm. It feeds two eyeball vents in the roof panel. I followed the procedure explained in the manual for various other openings: Make a splash mold of the intended roof area, cut the opening, take away some of the skin on the inside, take out some of the foam core, and connect the inner skin to the outer skin with flox and bid, creating a flange at the same time. I made the flange somewhat lower, so that there was room to make a waterproof seal. The construction by itself is stronger than the piece taken away. Frans ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:34:07 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Cooling - Rotax 914. Mike Parkin wrote: > However, when airborne, the effect of the > door is surprisingly minimal. In the cruise at 130kts, with the flap open > the temperatures are as usual sub 100 degs - 60 to 70 degs maybe. With the > duct closed, the temperatures (water, oil, CHT) are only raised by about 10 > degs. One advantage is it makes my cabin heater a little more effective. Keep in mind that the maximum opening for optimal airflow is about 1/3rd of the radiator surface. Air won't be able to rush with 100kts through the radiators, so you need to compress the air after the radiators to let it exit with the same speed as the surrounding air. Any opening more than 1/3rd of the radiator surface is not going to have much effect at all. When the flap is "closed", how much exit area do you still have? Mind you that even small openings can have quite a large effect. Although you have ram air cooling for the cylinders, I don't believe you can cool the oil substantially without using the radiator. If your oil temp doesn't increase when you have the flap closed, I suspect that there is still plenty of air going through the radiator. Frans ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:37 AM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Cooling - Rotax 914. <> Except on a winter's day, when (on many more open installations) an oil cooler is not needed at all. Duncan Mcf. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frans Veldman" Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 8:31 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Cooling - Rotax 914. > > > > Mike Parkin wrote: >> However, when airborne, the effect of the >> door is surprisingly minimal. In the cruise at 130kts, with the flap >> open >> the temperatures are as usual sub 100 degs - 60 to 70 degs maybe. With >> the >> duct closed, the temperatures (water, oil, CHT) are only raised by about >> 10 >> degs. One advantage is it makes my cabin heater a little more effective. > > Keep in mind that the maximum opening for optimal airflow is about 1/3rd > of the radiator surface. Air won't be able to rush with 100kts through > the radiators, so you need to compress the air after the radiators to > let it exit with the same speed as the surrounding air. Any opening more > than 1/3rd of the radiator surface is not going to have much effect at > all. > When the flap is "closed", how much exit area do you still have? Mind > you that even small openings can have quite a large effect. > Although you have ram air cooling for the cylinders, I don't believe you > can cool the oil substantially without using the radiator. If your oil > temp doesn't increase when you have the flap closed, I suspect that > there is still plenty of air going through the radiator. > > Frans > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:09:48 AM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Cooling - Rotax 914. 'Although you have ram air cooling for the cylinders, I don't believe you 'can cool the oil substantially without using the radiator. If your oil 'temp doesn't increase when you have the flap closed, I suspect that 'there is still plenty of air going through the radiator. 'Frans Frans, As I said in my original post "The door can close the duct completely"- plainly there will be some leakage around the door, but not much. Although the position indicator shows the door closed, I would need a camera to observe the door in flight to be absolutely sure. Your point about oil temperature is not my experience over the years I have been flying the aircraft. Almost always, the oil temperature lags the CHT/water temperature. I have never seen the oil temperature above the water/CHT. With the original configuration, that is with both radiators mounted adjacent, the temperatures of cht/water/oil were usually identical. Some years ago, during a particularly hot summer in Switzerland, after take-off during a slow climb following Dave Buzz, I had a lot of trouble keeping the temperatures within limits. The only way to rectify the situation, was to leave the formation and fly back down the valley at a higher airspeed. After that trip, I lowered the oil cooler to improve the overall cooling. However, with my aircraft, flying at the higher IAS is the answer. Regards, Mike ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:51 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Cooling - Rotax 914. Mike Parkin wrote: > > 'Although you have ram air cooling for the cylinders, I don't > believe you > 'can cool the oil substantially without using the radiator. If your > oil > 'temp doesn't increase when you have the flap closed, I suspect that > 'there is still plenty of air going through the radiator. > > 'Frans > > Frans, > > As I said in my original post "The door can close the duct completely"- > plainly there will be some leakage around the door, but not much. Although > the position indicator shows the door closed, I would need a camera to > observe the door in flight to be absolutely sure. Your point about oil > temperature is not my experience over the years I have been flying the > aircraft. Ok, I take your word for granted! I have not been flying yet, so I can't speak from experience. I have intentionally made it impossible to close off the cowl flap completely, as I believed that I need at least SOME air going through the radiators. Maybe I was wrong with that. Frans ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:48:31 AM PST US From: teledynmcs@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Re:Vents Hi Guys, Regarding ventilation, I installed both the Ultimate Ventilators and a starboard side NACA vent in the vertical that feeds 3 overhead eyeball vents. The key to getting the NACA vent to supply enough air to the eyeballs is to provide a place for the incoming cockpit air to escape. If you don't do this the cockpit pressurizes and you won't get much airflow. Without a place for the air to escape, the faster you go the less air comes in. It doesn't take much to pressurization to override the intake pressure of the NACA vent. I installed a plastic vent grille in the bottom center of the baggage bay "D" access panel. The grille was found here: _http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5228_ (http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5228) and is P/N 32057 shown on this page. It's more or less oval in shape, very lightweight, and looks nice when installed. At cruise speeds my eyeball vents provide at least as much air as you would experience from a typical airliner eyeball vent. A small piece of zigzag trip tape in front of the NACA vent also helps considerably to increase the amount of air that enters the NACA vent. Zigzag is available here: _http://wingsandwheels.com/page29.htm_ (http://wingsandwheels.com/page29.htm) I installed the Ultimate Ventilators below the instrument panel, about knee level, on either side using the hole left where my lower half of the fuselage was mounted in the cradle during construction. These provide a very nice blast of air, even on the ground, that can be directed somewhat up and down, depending on how much they are open. No need for trip tape on these, though. They allow plenty of air in, no zigzag is necessary. It gets hot and sticky here in SE Tennessee in the summertime and highly recommend both of these methods to provide creature comfort. Hope it helps! Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:10:47 AM PST US From: "Remi Guerner" Subject: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents <<<<<<<<>>>>>>> In my opinion the supplied NACA are very effective to cool the pilot left and passenger's right knees only. After living with that inconvenience for 7 years and 600 flight hours, I decided to fix it. I made a fiberglass conduit which is glued in place and allows the fresh air from the NACA to be rerouted forward to an aluminum eyeball vent. The original Naca shutoff panel has been removed. The conduit is hidden behind the sidewall carpeting. See attached pictures. Now I can direct fresh air were I want it. The pilot side vent has been tested for one year now and the pax side was installed last october. Both are very effective. Remi Guerner F-PGKL ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:25 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re:Vents teledynmcs@aol.com wrote: > The key to getting the NACA vent to supply enough air to the eyeballs is to > provide a place for the incoming cockpit air to escape. Oh yes, I forgot that in my previous mail. I have made an outlet in the D-panel, attached to a scat tube that runs to the tail, and exits in the sternpost. According to some reports this is quite a low pessure area, because the air is drawn out via the gap between rudder and sternpost. I wonder BTW how much you can pressurize the cabin with inlet vents and closed oulets. Anyone ever tried to measure the difference in static pressure inside the cabin and on the static tube? This would allow one to fly a little bit higher without oxygen supply. ;-) Frans ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:51 PM PST US From: "Kevin Klinefelter" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents I'm happy with the ultimate vents I placed above the knee, so they are just clear of the instrument module. Seems like the lightest and easiest to install of just about any of the ideas out there. Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Fairall To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:25 AM Subject: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents I'm progressing well on my second Europa (kit 494) and exploring the options for cockpit fresh air. My existing Europa has the plastic adjustable NACA duct type air inlets by pilot and passenger's knees, but these are not particularly effective. I have heard of and seen a number of roof entry fresh air systems which I gather are very effective, but I recall reading somewhere that cutting the roof can compromise the strength of the cockpit module. All (UK) LAA approvable suggestions gratefully received. Thanks Bob Fairall (G-BXLK, mono classic, 400 hours and for sale, & G-CBXW) ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:02 PM PST US From: "Garry" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents The summers don't get much hotter than here in Florida. I initially built-in the NACA ducts at knee level as per the plans........almost worthless. Much later I discovered the Aircraft Spruce "Ultimate Vents", which I placed in the lower corners of the windscreen, on each side. Fantastic!!!! They can be directed to blow on your upper torso and face, from a whisper to a tornado. They really work!!! And the best part is that they can be installed in a few minutes AFTER you've completed your build, without messing up your paint job or your interior upholstery. Garry Stout Tampa, Florida 914 Tri ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Klinefelter To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 3:07 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents I'm happy with the ultimate vents I placed above the knee, so they are just clear of the instrument module. Seems like the lightest and easiest to install of just about any of the ideas out there. Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Fairall To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:25 AM Subject: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents I'm progressing well on my second Europa (kit 494) and exploring the options for cockpit fresh air. My existing Europa has the plastic adjustable NACA duct type air inlets by pilot and passenger's knees, but these are not particularly effective. I have heard of and seen a number of roof entry fresh air systems which I gather are very effective, but I recall reading somewhere that cutting the roof can compromise the strength of the cockpit module. All (UK) LAA approvable suggestions gratefully received. Thanks Bob Fairall (G-BXLK, mono classic, 400 hours and for sale, & G-CBXW) ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:42 PM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Europa-List: Greece Has anyone any experience of flying permit aircraft in Greece, and in particular of the current state of special permission needed or not? Happy Christmas, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:59:52 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents From: Paul McAllister Hi Gary, and others that have gone before me, I was wondering how you were able to fit up the Ultimate ventilators without damaging your paint finish. Thanks, Paul On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Garry wrote: > And the best part is that they can be installed in a few minutes AFTER > you've completed your build, without messing up your paint job or your > interior upholstery. > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:34 PM PST US From: "Garry" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents Hi Paul, The hole I drilled to fit the ventilators was in the Plexiglas windscreen. I think in the UK they call it "Perspex" or some such thing. I used a cheap and simple tool called a "fly cutter", chucked into my cordless drill. Make sure you have a steady hand, and turn the drill at the lowest speed possible..........like 50 RPM if possible. It made a neat, clean hole and I bonded the ventilator in with Redux. The whole job couldn't have taken more than 5 minutes. I drilled the holes in the outermost corners of the windscreen, leaving about one inch clearance from the edges of the windscreen. I hope this description helps. Garry Stout Tampa, Florida 914 Tri ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul McAllister To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 4:58 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents Hi Gary, and others that have gone before me, I was wondering how you were able to fit up the Ultimate ventilators without damaging your paint finish. Thanks, Paul On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Garry wrote: And the best part is that they can be installed in a few minutes AFTER you've completed your build, without messing up your paint job or your interior upholstery. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:35 PM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Greece Hi! David I always have considered it an unfriendly place since the Hull Plane spotters were locked up. ......Not that long since it was a dictatorship! Bob H -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Joyce Sent: 18 December 2009 21:11 Subject: Europa-List: Greece Has anyone any experience of flying permit aircraft in Greece, and in particular of the current state of special permission needed or not? Happy Christmas, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:33:20 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents From: Robert Borger Paul, I installed my vents during construction but don't see why it couldn't be accomplished after the build. I found a hole saw that was exactly the right diameter to fit the ridge on the vent. I would recommend applying tape to the paint side prior to drilling from the paint side to protect the paint from chipping. Drill slowly and carefully. Once you have run the center drill bit through, you might even consider operating the hole saw by hand at least until it is through the outer skin. You will have to remove the interior skin and foam in a larger circle to allow the ring to sit flush with the outer surface. Careful work with a box cutter type blade will do it. I used Redux/Araldite to bond the ring in place. I hope this helps, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL Aircraft Flying! 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Dec 18, 2009, at 15:58, Paul McAllister wrote: > Hi Gary, and others that have gone before me, > > I was wondering how you were able to fit up the Ultimate ventilators without damaging your paint finish. > > Thanks, Paul > > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Garry wrote: > And the best part is that they can be installed in a few minutes AFTER you've completed your build, without messing up your paint job or your interior upholstery. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:11 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents From: duanefamly@aol.com Gary, you wouldn't happen to have a pix of your vents? Mike Duane Redding, CA XS Conventional Gear -----Original Message----- From: Garry Sent: Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:50 pm Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents Hi Paul, The hole I drilled to fit the ventilators was in the Plexiglas windscreen. I think in the UK they call it "Perspex" or some such thing. I used a cheap and simple tool called a "fly cutter", chucked into my cordless dri ll. Make sure you have a steady hand, and turn the drill at the lowest sp eed possible..........like 50 RPM if possible. It made a neat, clean hole and I bonded the ventilator in with Redux. The whole job couldn't have taken more than 5 minutes. I drilled the holes in the outermost corners of the windscreen, leaving about one inch clearance from the edges of the windscreen. I hope this description helps. Garry Stout Tampa, Florida 914 Tri ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul McAllister Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 4:58 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa- Fresh air vents Hi Gary, and others that have gone before me, I was wondering how you were able to fit up the Ultimate ventilators witho ut damaging your paint finish. Thanks, Paul On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Garry wrote: And the best part is that they can be installed in a few minutes AFTER yo u've completed your build, without messing up your paint job or your inter ior upholstery. href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com ref="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com ref="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chr ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhre f="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== - -= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- -= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) - -= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. 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