Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:14 AM - 2009 List of Contributors (Matt Dralle)
2. 01:53 AM - water pipes (Steven Pitt)
3. 02:23 AM - Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (flyingphil2)
4. 03:38 AM - Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (Frans Veldman)
5. 05:33 AM - Re: water pipes (Bob Borger)
6. 06:35 AM - Looking to Buy Trigrear (SteveD)
7. 07:24 AM - skydrive carb heater (Rowland Carson)
8. 07:30 AM - Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (Jan de Jong)
9. 07:44 AM - Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (rampil)
10. 07:48 AM - Re: skydrive carb heater (rampil)
11. 07:49 AM - Re: skydrive carb heater (Steven Pitt)
12. 08:00 AM - Re: skydrive carb heater (danny shepherd)
13. 08:35 AM - Re: skydrive carb heater (Rowland Carson)
14. 10:47 AM - Re: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
15. 11:12 AM - Re: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (Frans Veldman)
16. 01:11 PM - Re: skydrive carb heater (Robert C Harrison)
17. 02:54 PM - Re: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
18. 03:03 PM - Re: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (Jan de Jong)
19. 03:03 PM - Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (rparigoris)
20. 04:07 PM - Passive vector redirector (RJP version) 2 for each door (rparigoris)
Message 1
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| Subject: | 2009 List of Contributors |
Dear Listers,
The 2009 Matronics Email List and Forum Fund Raiser officially ended a couple of
weeks ago and its time that I publish this year's List of Contributors. Its
the people on this list that directly make the Email Lists and Forums possible.
Their generous
contributions keep the servers and Internet connection up and running.
You can still show your support this year and pick up a great gift at the same
time. The Contribution Web Site is fast, easy, and secure:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I also want to thank Bob, Jon, Andy, and John for their generous support through
the supply of great gifts this year!! These guys have some great products and
I encourage you to visit their respective web sites:
Bob Nucklolls - AeroElectric - www.aeroelectric.com
Jon Croke - HomebuiltHELP - www.homebuilthelp.com
Andy Gold - The Builder's Bookstore - www.buildersbooks.com
John Caldwell - HowToCrimp - www.howtocrimp.com
And finally, I'm proud to present The 2009 Fund Raiser List of Contributors:
http://www.matronics.com/loc/2009.html
Thanks again to everyone that made a Contribution this year!!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
Message 2
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I am in the process of changing my water pipes for Stefan's silicon
pipes and have a question for those who may have made the change.
What is the best way of removing and replacing the pipes on top of the
engine and to the engine part especially (under the fuel inlets). Do you
struggle to get the clips off and on again or do you remove the
carburettors and top manifolds?
Thanks in anticipation.
Steve Pitt
G-SMDH 912S
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in |
Hi Jan,
You are ahead of me on your build and so I have this to come. I was also advised
by Roger not to bond the tank in and just have it supported by the brackets.
Could you not line the brackets with PTFE release tape or something? I don't think
that is a conductor. Alternatively (and having recently had a large delivery
of RAM memory at work), could you not use the non-static bag material that
memory boards are delivered in? I'm not sure what that is but some internet
research may come up with a material spec.
Hope that helps and let me know if you find a solution.
Regards,
Phil
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278406#278406
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in |
Jan de Jong wrote:
> Yesterday I remembered belatedly that plastic moving on wool (and
> plastic on plastic) can lead to static charge buildup and sparks.
1) Restrict the movement. Ideally, you want to make the tank fit
precisely, so it won't shift during turbulence or scarobatic
manoeuvrings. It will then only move a bit because of thermal changes,
or when the fuel level (and hence weight) changes. This is not enough to
produce a significant amount of static electricity.
2) I wouldn't use a conductive layer on any side of the tank. This will
create a conductive path for anything that has a potential to spark. If
there is no conductor, it is difficult to get a spark. Localizes spots
of static charge won't spark, UNLESS there is a conductor that allows
these charges to collect together, create a massive force, and make them
jump to... something else where they can continue their travel.
Actually, the worst thing you can do is to make both the inside and
outside of the tank conductive, as then you have created a very large
capacitor, very able to build up a large charge, and with the potential
to spark through its dielectricum, that is, the wall of your tank. The
charge will then, due to the conductive layer, search for the weakest
spot, and the entire charge of the tank will spark through this weakest
spot.
3) Don't fix what ain't broken. There are no reports or even suspicions
that any Europa exploded due to static charge buildup of the tank and
ignition of the fuel.
Consider this: if you rub a balloon (these things used for party
decoration) over some plastic, these things will build up huge amounts
of static electricity. They will raise your hair easily from quite a
distance, or stick to a window or ceiling just by their static electricity.
Although they are building up huge amounts of static electricity, never,
never, will this electricity spark to the inside of the balloon (and
thus destroying itself by piercing the latex).
I believe balloons can be forced into building up more static
electricity than you will ever encounter in your Europa tank. And I also
believe that the skin of the tank is much thicker than the skin of the
balloon. ;-)
I wouldn't worry about it, as long as you don't make the tank
conductive. Keep it as is, don't bond it it, but restrict its movement.
Frans
Message 5
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Steve,
FWIW, you can go to my build diary on EuropaOwners.org, Year #6 Q2 2007, page 4
and see how I made the change.
I don't remember having any specific difficulty removing the old clamps using some
adjustable pliers but I bet a set of purpose clamp pliers would make it easier.
I don't believe I removed any of the manifolds or carbs, but I installed on a 914,
not a 912.
Good luck,
Bob Borger
On Monday, December 21, 2009, at 03:52AM, "Steven Pitt" <steven.pitt2@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Looking to Buy Trigrear |
Thought I'd pass this on, please respond to the with contact info below:
I would like to purchase a Europa
15 Dec 2009 12:47 pm
I am looking to purchase a Europa in the near future and would like to hear from
pilots who are considering selling. I do prefer a Trigear to the monowheel.
My contact details are: John Greenhalgh - jg4@bolton.ac.uk - 01942 815227 - 0787
647 3929
Design4p
Posted here:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=7082
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278421#278421
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| Subject: | skydrive carb heater |
I don't need it just yet but thought I'd get it before the VAT rate
goes back up again in January, so I've just take delivery of the
Skydrive carb heater kit (water-driven). Scanning through the
instructions, I see the user is reminded to check that there is
enough room to actually fit the things to the carbs.
Is there any problem to be expected in installing the Skydrive carb
heaters in a Europa XS with a Rotax 912ULS?
Any thoughts appreciated - but if you want to talk about whether carb
icing is a problem on Rotax engines, please start a new thread!
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowil@clara.net> http://home.clara.net/rowil/
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in |
New day, new courage. Thank you.
I agree, Frans, no movement allowed and no antistatic (conducting)
materials - that was a wrong turn I took.
There exists a "triboelectric series" (for instance:
http://www.trifield.com/triboelectric.htm) . Distance in this series
indicates propensity for charge buildup when materials are rubbed
together. Close enough and no discharge in air can be induced. Epoxy and
PE are not too far apart, closer than wool and PE (Phil, I see that PTFE
is at an extreme end of the scale). PE and PP are in the same place.
I am now inclined to go ahead with my bed either lined with very thin
HD-PE packing foam - to avoid all likelyhood of electrostatic discharge
- or not lined at all. Mechanically the second option looks most certain
- and simple.
Movement prevention using EPP padding where the tank has edges: at top
front (front and top faces), at top rear (top face) and bottom front
(front face of the bed).
The padding is not supposed to carry weight Thin layer of Araldite 420
(from a 2003 batch) bonds the stuff very well.
Any more thoughts welcome.
Cheers,
Jan de Jong
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in |
Happy Holidays!
Before going outside the build manual instructions for the fuel
tank, it might be worthwhile to recheck with the factory. No
offense to Roger, but the company is now owned by an actual
aviation engineer.
The presence of a conductive patch in the tank is meaningless, the
only thing that matters is the possibility to close a path to ground
from a voltage source(like a static, or in engineering-speak, tribolelectric
charge) through a fuel-air cloud.
Unless the tank is electrically connected to the engine block or other
ground there is no ignition circuit.
BTW, the best fuel hose available is Aeroquip 666 with a carbon stripe
on the teflon inner liner to move fuel-flow induced charge to a controlled
ground site (not through gasoline-air vapor)
Best of Luck,
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278436#278436
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: skydrive carb heater |
Hi Rowland,
The only fitment issue I know of is that late model engines come
with a "Drip Tray" for the carbs (which is actually a heat shield,
but that is another story).
The presence of the skydrive unit will prevent the trays from fitting
the full length of the carb and the rear lip of the tray will not fit under
the carb.
Regards,
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278438#278438
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| Subject: | Re: skydrive carb heater |
No problem Rowland.
Best thing that you can do for safety in the future.
Steve Pitt
G-SMDH Trigear XS 912S
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rowland Carson" <rowil@clara.net>
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 3:18 PM
Subject: Europa-List: skydrive carb heater
>
> I don't need it just yet but thought I'd get it before the VAT rate
> goes back up again in January, so I've just take delivery of the
> Skydrive carb heater kit (water-driven). Scanning through the
> instructions, I see the user is reminded to check that there is
> enough room to actually fit the things to the carbs.
>
> Is there any problem to be expected in installing the Skydrive carb
> heaters in a Europa XS with a Rotax 912ULS?
>
> Any thoughts appreciated - but if you want to talk about whether carb
> icing is a problem on Rotax engines, please start a new thread!
>
> regards
>
> Rowland
> --
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
19:35:00
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: skydrive carb heater |
Hi Rowland,
I fitted the Skydrive carb heater to my 912s, it was
easy to fit. The Plenum chamber is moved back by 3/4 of an inch but
there's plenty of room. Don't know if there is a problem with carb icing
as I've fitted the carb heater from the start.
Danny G-ceri
Rowland Carson wrote:
>
> I don't need it just yet but thought I'd get it before the VAT rate
> goes back up again in January, so I've just take delivery of the
> Skydrive carb heater kit (water-driven). Scanning through the
> instructions, I see the user is reminded to check that there is enough
> room to actually fit the things to the carbs.
>
> Is there any problem to be expected in installing the Skydrive carb
> heaters in a Europa XS with a Rotax 912ULS?
>
> Any thoughts appreciated - but if you want to talk about whether carb
> icing is a problem on Rotax engines, please start a new thread!
>
> regards
>
> Rowland
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: skydrive carb heater |
At 2009-12-21 15:47 +0000 Steven Pitt wrote:
>No problem
At 2009-12-21 15:58 +0000 danny shepherd wrote:
>it was easy to fit
Steve, Danny - thanks for the reassurance!
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowil@clara.net> http://home.clara.net/rowil/
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in |
Hi Group
I posted this site before, but here it is again that speaks
why you want carbon lined teflon fuel line: http://www.sacskyranch.com/statichose.htm.
I like Aeroquip 666 hose FWF, not only for long service life but it has a
smaller OD for a given ID of many hoses. It allowed me to sneak between
UCMF and tunnel. I fabricated SSbanjo ends : http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=28355.
You can purchase withcustom crimped ends instead of screw together
compression ends. My banjo end uses parts from the later.Jan I don't
think I would worry too much about static. I did a search a while back and
only thing i found was explosin in a helicopter or two from inside of fuel
system. I agree conductive both inside and outside is not a good idea.
Unless tank is near empty the mixture inside will be way too rich to
explode. Not much statis is going to be built up with minimal sloshing
going on in tank. Another stroy sending 30 to 40GPH or more through 914
fuel lines. The tank is so thick I don't know if you would ever puncture
it with a discharge. Now refueling is another story! I plan to make a
swipe with a damp cottom cloth of cap before removal. there has been at
least one Europa lost to discharge upon refueling. I don't see much
benefit to wool? There is not much movement of tank, did you want this for
cushion, anti chafe or?? Checking with factory is a good idea. If I were
to mount tank at this time, would probably just put a piece of saran wrap
on tank and lay up nice support. You don't want a cantelever from back
trying to hold tank up in front. Tunnel layup is good idea, staggering
layers for most part is always a good idea and is such here. Foam after
all is said and done still a good idea. All said that is unless you want
to install an aluminium tank at this point.
Ron Parigoris
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in |
rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:
> there has been at
> least one Europa lost to discharge upon refueling.
Any more information about this?
Thanks,
Frans
Message 16
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| Subject: | skydrive carb heater |
Hi! Rowlnd
There's many more Rotax carb heat experienced people about than me but from
an outside observation I'd understood that it was advisable that you get
Conrad at Conair to press these items into place? Otherwise easy to fit.
(I don't have any carb heat since I have a 914 with a turbo and
intercooler. I'm monitoring minimum carb throat temperature and the lowest
I've seen to date was 6 deg Celcius.)
Regards
Bob Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland Carson
Sent: 21 December 2009 16:34
Subject: Re: Europa-List: skydrive carb heater
At 2009-12-21 15:47 +0000 Steven Pitt wrote:
>No problem
At 2009-12-21 15:58 +0000 danny shepherd wrote:
>it was easy to fit
Steve, Danny - thanks for the reassurance!
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowil@clara.net> http://home.clara.net/rowil/
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in |
Hi Frans
"there has been at least one Europa lost to discharge
upon refueling."
" Any more information about
this?"
I remember wheninstalling my cockpit module
~2004I researched static discharges and fuel in plastic aeroplanes.
I forget if it was a formal report or mention but I am pretty certain it
happened and caused a total loss of a Europa caused by static discharge
when refueling. I have a folder with static info in it that is in my
engine crate. Next time I access engine will see if I made a copy, will
scan and post if I did. After my research instead of putting discharge
mesh down cobra and into tank and connect that to outlets of fuel tank I
am goingNevs route, damp cotton cloth onto filler before removing
cap. One bad thing you can avoid is filling a container that is not placed
on ground but held off,then pouring it into right away into your
plane.
Ron Parigoris
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in |
Frans Veldman wrote:
>
> rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:
>
>> there has been at
>> least one Europa lost to discharge upon refueling.
>>
>
> Any more information about this?
>
> Thanks,
> Frans
>
Concerns G-BWDP / Harold Linke in the year 2000. There are pictures of
the aircraft taken in 2006 so it was repaired.
Not much information searching in archives or googleing.
There has been a lot of discussion on best practices.
A nice searchable archive is at http://www.sarangan.org/aviation/
Re fuel tank installation - I will refer to factory tomorrow. They may
have shut down for Xmas ofcourse.
Cheers,
Jan de Jong
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in |
Hi Frans
I searched static fire on Andrews search engine and got plenty of hits. Here is
one:
http://www.sarangan.org/www/mhonarc/mharc/html//europa-list/2000-07/msg00018.html
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278502#278502
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| Subject: | Passive vector redirector (RJP version) 2 for each door |
In case anyone is interested here is what we did as far as anti bulge between shoot
bolts and top aft warping on doors:
*Anti bulge between shoot bolts, I know that there are many ways to skin a cat,
can install a smaller seal, strengthen door with aluminium plate or Uni, or warp
door and install glass and hope it don't change, I opted for a passive pin
and striker. Pin on fuse and striker on door. Stupid and simple.
*Anti top aft door warping, I know there are many changing strut position with
chance warp will be worst than if strut were kept in original position. I investigated
Ted Gladstone geometry, boy with my XS kit A-265 with 4130 chrome moly
harness attachment just aft of door rebate, I just don't know if I could fit
without major surgery. I opted to keep strut in original position, laid up 1
layer of CF on door and installed a pin and striker. What a slick piece of geometry!
The pin is aimed 6 degrees off neutral and relieves stress on door when
closed while at the same time tugging down on the top surface of door. It is
true that if you left the door opened it can still warp, but if I tie doors together
when they are opened for any long legth of time, I am preparing to make
that an easy thing to do.
Details from here on:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=76536
I will not Redux in place until I finish bonding on second wing skin so I don't
run short on Redux. Present things are only bonded in place with JB KWIK Weld
onto scuff sanded 3M 375 packaging tape and sheet metal screws, works great though!
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278519#278519
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