Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:10 AM - Re: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (Jan de Jong)
2. 04:44 AM - 30A slo-blo fuse (Rowland Carson)
3. 04:48 AM - another fusing question (Rowland Carson)
4. 05:06 AM - Re: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (William Daniell)
5. 05:34 AM - Re: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (Richard Churchill-Coleman)
6. 06:35 AM - Re: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (Peter Zutrauen)
7. 06:43 AM - Re: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (William Daniell)
8. 06:47 AM - Re: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (Bob Borger)
9. 07:11 AM - How is Europa doing? (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
10. 08:48 AM - Re: 30A slo-blo fuse (Steven Pitt)
11. 10:53 AM - Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (Fred Klein)
12. 11:20 AM - Re: 30A slo-blo fuse (David Joyce)
13. 11:22 AM - Re: another fusing question (craig bastin)
14. 11:54 AM - Re: 30A slo-blo fuse (Jeff B)
15. 02:04 PM - Re: 30A slo-blo fuse (Paul McAllister)
16. 08:21 PM - Re: 30A slo-blo fuse (Kingsley Hurst)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in |
Checking with John and Roger at the factory re tank installation.
1.
The last of the original (2004) Ltd crew is retiring and having its last
day at the office today. The end of a period - again.
Roger will be available by e-mail for a while for technical questions.
He monitors this forum. If I say a lie he will correct I'm sure.
2.
The gaseous tank treatment introduced to prevent swelling causes epoxy
to bond to the tank material.
Thermal expansion rate difference is the most likely cause for tearing
tanks.
Prescription:
Install in accordance with the manual but with a permanent release film
between layup and tank.
No other measures are necessary and triboelectrics are not an issue.
(
Googling gives a linear thermal expansion coefficient difference between
glass reinforced epoxy and polyethylene in the order of 1 in 10000 per
degree C.
That would be 1 mm per 20 cm for 50 degree C.
)
Cheers,
Jan de Jong
Message 2
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Subject: | 30A slo-blo fuse |
The wiring diagram for the Europa Rotax installation shows 2 off 30A
slo-blo fuses, in the battery & alternator lines to the main busbar.
What hardware have UK builders used to realise these fuses? And where
did you get it?
All the fuses I've found readily available are automotive blade fuses
which all seem to be fast-blow.
There are also industrial cartridge fuses (10mm x 38mm) which will
fit the inline fuseholders available from Halfords (Autoleads AGU
part # G2-30-H) but neither these nor the ones supllied in the
Autoleads holders indicate the speed of blowing.
ANL type current limiters sound nice but (a) are difficult to get in
UK and (b) the minimum size is 35A. Pete Smoothy at Airworld says he
can get 40A ones from B&C. But a 40A ANL is maybe too loose to
protect 10AWG wires?
And how important is it anyway to fit slow-blow as opposed to
fast-blow in these positions?
Opinions, part numbers, suppliers details, all welcome!
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowil@clara.net> http://home.clara.net/rowil/
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Message 3
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Subject: | another fusing question |
The Europa wiring diagram shows 1A fuses to protect the wires
penetrating the firewall from the current shunt and the starter
relay. However, no fuses are shown on the wires from the regulator to
the alternator warning light. I plan to put a fuse in both these
wires (as, if I understand the operation aright, both will normally
be at a nominal 12V).
Is there any reason why I shouldn't fuse these wires - or indeed why
fuses are not shown on the digram?
regards
Rowland
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| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowil@clara.net> http://home.clara.net/rowil/
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
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Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in |
Jan
is there any suggestion for those of us who have already bonded in as
per the manual?
...And to take the opportunity also to say Happy Christmas to all and
thanks for all the help in 2009.
Will
Jan de Jong wrote:
> 2.
> The gaseous tank treatment introduced to prevent swelling causes epoxy
> to bond to the tank material.
> Thermal expansion rate difference is the most likely cause for tearing
> tanks.
> Prescription:
> Install in accordance with the manual but with a permanent release film
> between layup and tank.
> No other measures are necessary and triboelectrics are not an issue.
>
> (
> Googling gives a linear thermal expansion coefficient difference between
> glass reinforced epoxy and polyethylene in the order of 1 in 10000 per
> degree C.
> That would be 1 mm per 20 cm for 50 degree C.
> )
>
> Cheers,
> Jan de Jong
>
>
> _
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in |
William,
I asked Roger about this yesterday (on his almost last day) because the
factory built my cockpit module and bonded in the tank as per the
instructions. His comforting words were that the shear stress issues were
being experienced by extreme temperature ranges and would not cause problems
for "normal" (ie UK and mainland western Europe) temperatures.....
Not sure how much that helps for your circumstances...
RCC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell
Sent: 23 December 2009 13:05
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in
Jan
is there any suggestion for those of us who have already bonded in as per
the manual?
...And to take the opportunity also to say Happy Christmas to all and thanks
for all the help in 2009.
Will
Jan de Jong wrote:
> 2.
> The gaseous tank treatment introduced to prevent swelling causes epoxy
> to bond to the tank material.
> Thermal expansion rate difference is the most likely cause for tearing
> tanks.
> Prescription:
> Install in accordance with the manual but with a permanent release
> film between layup and tank.
> No other measures are necessary and triboelectrics are not an issue.
>
> (
> Googling gives a linear thermal expansion coefficient difference
> between glass reinforced epoxy and polyethylene in the order of 1 in
> 10000 per degree C.
> That would be 1 mm per 20 cm for 50 degree C.
> )
>
> Cheers,
> Jan de Jong
>
>
> _
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
18:22:00
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in |
This is the first I have heard of thermal expansion being attributed as a
contributor to cracking.
It was my understanding that even the flourinated tanks swell, and it was
the swelling + adhesion of the epoxy (restricting the swelling locally,
creating point-stresses) which was the cause of some cracking. - Or have I
mis-understood the previous reports and email threads?
Thx,
Pete
A239
-tank not yet installed, and contemplating the design and construction of an
all-composite tank (...the Cozy and LongEze builders have geen doing it for
years...no?).
On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 7:06 AM, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl> wrote:
>
> Checking with John and Roger at the factory re tank installation.
>
> 1.
> The last of the original (2004) Ltd crew is retiring and having its last
> day at the office today. The end of a period - again.
> Roger will be available by e-mail for a while for technical questions. He
> monitors this forum. If I say a lie he will correct I'm sure.
>
> 2.
> The gaseous tank treatment introduced to prevent swelling causes epoxy to
> bond to the tank material.
> Thermal expansion rate difference is the most likely cause for tearing
> tanks.
> Prescription:
> Install in accordance with the manual but with a permanent release film
> between layup and tank.
> No other measures are necessary and triboelectrics are not an issue.
>
> (
> Googling gives a linear thermal expansion coefficient difference between
> glass reinforced epoxy and polyethylene in the order of 1 in 10000 per
> degree C.
> That would be 1 mm per 20 cm for 50 degree C.
> )
>
> Cheers,
> Jan de Jong
>
>
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in |
Richard
thanks, it is a little disquieting because although BOG is pretty much
like English Summer all year round due to altitude (8500); fly 30 mins
and you land at 1000 and it is absolutely baking!
I suspect that some of the US builders/flyers probably have more
experience of temp differentials.
Yours
Will
Richard Churchill-Coleman wrote:
>
> William,
>
> I asked Roger about this yesterday (on his almost last day) because the
> factory built my cockpit module and bonded in the tank as per the
> instructions. His comforting words were that the shear stress issues were
> being experienced by extreme temperature ranges and would not cause problems
> for "normal" (ie UK and mainland western Europe) temperatures.....
>
> Not sure how much that helps for your circumstances...
> RCC
>
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in |
Pete,
My thoughts as well. And I have a factory assembled CM with bonded tank.
And because I had the same understanding as you, I keep the tank full and won't
empty it for an extended time if at all possible.
Where do we go from here?
*** Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all ***
Bob Borger
On Wednesday, December 23, 2009, at 08:13AM, "Peter Zutrauen" <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
wrote:
>
Message 9
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Subject: | How is Europa doing? |
Hey Nev
Best wishes and happy holidays.
I read on
forum that Roger is leaving Europa. I guess he is the last of the
oldies.
How are they doing?
Thx.
Sincerely
Ron Parigoris
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: 30A slo-blo fuse |
Rowland
I used 2 x 30amp Potter and Brumfield circuit breakers which have worked
without a problem.
I am about to move them as per Ian Rickards installation as they do not need
to be in the panel, which means disconnecting them every time you want to
remove the panel.
Ask Ian for a photo of his very neat installation.
Regards
Steve Pitt
G-SMDH
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rowland Carson" <rowil@clara.net>
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:24 PM
Subject: Europa-List: 30A slo-blo fuse
>
> The wiring diagram for the Europa Rotax installation shows 2 off 30A
> slo-blo fuses, in the battery & alternator lines to the main busbar.
>
> What hardware have UK builders used to realise these fuses? And where
> did you get it?
>
> All the fuses I've found readily available are automotive blade fuses
> which all seem to be fast-blow.
>
> There are also industrial cartridge fuses (10mm x 38mm) which will
> fit the inline fuseholders available from Halfords (Autoleads AGU
> part # G2-30-H) but neither these nor the ones supllied in the
> Autoleads holders indicate the speed of blowing.
>
> ANL type current limiters sound nice but (a) are difficult to get in
> UK and (b) the minimum size is 35A. Pete Smoothy at Airworld says he
> can get 40A ones from B&C. But a 40A ANL is maybe too loose to
> protect 10AWG wires?
>
> And how important is it anyway to fit slow-blow as opposed to
> fast-blow in these positions?
>
> Opinions, part numbers, suppliers details, all welcome!
>
> regards
>
> Rowland
> --
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
08:28:00
Message 11
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Subject: | Fuel tank installation without bonding it in |
Though I recall seriously questioning the bonding called for in the
manual, I blithely went ahead and laid up the glass on the tank...much
to my chagrin. Because of the isolated reports of swelling, I did
install a padded FG "shield", intended to enhance the apparent
function of EURO 25 spacers shown on pg. 16-5, Fig. 7.
At this point, I intend to place a release film between underside of
tank and the inside surface of the bottom of the fuselage and squirt
some non-expanding foam through the twin access ports to fill the gap
between tank and fuselage. I'll use a long straw on the foam can in
order to raise the possibility of ending up with a full bed of
foam...the intention being to provide uniform support for the fuel
tank and to minimize any stresses on the tank caused by it being
cantilevered from the FG "straps" previously bonded to the tank. This
is a procedure described in Ron Pagoris's build-log. To my knowledge,
this is a theoretical band-aide with no operational experience which
might speak to its effectiveness.
...my 2 cents...comments & wisdom welcome,
Fred
A194
On Dec 23, 2009, at 6:46 AM, Bob Borger wrote:
> Pete,
>
> My thoughts as well. And I have a factory assembled CM with bonded
> tank.
>
> And because I had the same understanding as you, I keep the tank
> full and won't empty it for an extended time if at all possible.
>
> Where do we go from here?
>
> *** Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all ***
>
> Bob Borger
>
> On Wednesday, December 23, 2009, at 08:13AM, "Peter Zutrauen" <peterz@zutrasoft.com
> > wrote:
> >
> This is the first I have heard of thermal expansion being attributed
> as a contributor to cracking.
>
> It was my understanding that even the flourinated tanks swell, and
> it was the swelling + adhesion of the epoxy (restricting the
> swelling locally, creating point-stresses) which was the cause of
> some cracking. - Or have I mis-understood the previous reports and
> email threads?
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: 30A slo-blo fuse |
Rowland, Having researched the question at the time and taken a fair bit of
advice, I also used 30 amp switched circuit breakers, (from RD Aviation, but
can't tell you the make without going back to the plane), which act as my
main & alternator switches, and have given faultless service for 7 yrs.,
although I haven't put them to the test of having something downstream short
out!
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rowland Carson" <rowil@clara.net>
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:24 PM
Subject: Europa-List: 30A slo-blo fuse
>
> The wiring diagram for the Europa Rotax installation shows 2 off 30A
> slo-blo fuses, in the battery & alternator lines to the main busbar.
>
> What hardware have UK builders used to realise these fuses? And where did
> you get it?
>
> All the fuses I've found readily available are automotive blade fuses
> which all seem to be fast-blow.
>
> There are also industrial cartridge fuses (10mm x 38mm) which will fit the
> inline fuseholders available from Halfords (Autoleads AGU part # G2-30-H)
> but neither these nor the ones supllied in the Autoleads holders indicate
> the speed of blowing.
>
> ANL type current limiters sound nice but (a) are difficult to get in UK
> and (b) the minimum size is 35A. Pete Smoothy at Airworld says he can get
> 40A ones from B&C. But a 40A ANL is maybe too loose to protect 10AWG
> wires?
>
> And how important is it anyway to fit slow-blow as opposed to fast-blow in
> these positions?
>
> Opinions, part numbers, suppliers details, all welcome!
>
> regards
>
> Rowland
> --
>
>
>
Message 13
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Subject: | another fusing question |
The "typical" setup for most alternator warning lights, is for the bulb to
actually earth through
the regulator, and the rising voltage stops this from happening when the
alternator is working correctly
thus shutting off the light, the 12v for the lamp will in effect be going
out through the firewall
instead of in, which may be why the dont show a fuse, the worst result of a
short in the line would likely
be the light coming on and staying on. But please check the diagram to be
sure this is the case.
craig
kit 577
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: 30A slo-blo fuse |
Rowland,
I used standard large blade automotive fuses in my installation, with no
ill effects. Auto store has them with the fuse holder and #10 wire
attached.
Jeff - Baby Blue
Rowland Carson wrote:
>
> The wiring diagram for the Europa Rotax installation shows 2 off 30A
> slo-blo fuses, in the battery & alternator lines to the main busbar.
>
> What hardware have UK builders used to realise these fuses? And where
> did you get it?
>
> All the fuses I've found readily available are automotive blade fuses
> which all seem to be fast-blow.
>
> There are also industrial cartridge fuses (10mm x 38mm) which will fit
> the inline fuseholders available from Halfords (Autoleads AGU part #
> G2-30-H) but neither these nor the ones supllied in the Autoleads
> holders indicate the speed of blowing.
>
> ANL type current limiters sound nice but (a) are difficult to get in UK
> and (b) the minimum size is 35A. Pete Smoothy at Airworld says he can
> get 40A ones from B&C. But a 40A ANL is maybe too loose to protect 10AWG
> wires?
>
> And how important is it anyway to fit slow-blow as opposed to fast-blow
> in these positions?
>
> Opinions, part numbers, suppliers details, all welcome!
>
> regards
>
> Rowland
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: 30A slo-blo fuse |
Hi Rowland,
I used some industrial ceramic fuses and have them in the engine
compartment. Given what they need to protect I would consider using a
fusible link.
Cheers, Paul
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: 30A slo-blo fuse |
Another quite elegant solution is strip fuses available from Vehicle
Wiring Products (UK)
See attached, the black things above the Master Solenoid.
Kingsley
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