---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/23/09: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:10 AM - Re: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (Jan de Jong) 2. 04:44 AM - 30A slo-blo fuse (Rowland Carson) 3. 04:48 AM - another fusing question (Rowland Carson) 4. 05:06 AM - Re: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (William Daniell) 5. 05:34 AM - Re: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (Richard Churchill-Coleman) 6. 06:35 AM - Re: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (Peter Zutrauen) 7. 06:43 AM - Re: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (William Daniell) 8. 06:47 AM - Re: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (Bob Borger) 9. 07:11 AM - How is Europa doing? (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 10. 08:48 AM - Re: 30A slo-blo fuse (Steven Pitt) 11. 10:53 AM - Fuel tank installation without bonding it in (Fred Klein) 12. 11:20 AM - Re: 30A slo-blo fuse (David Joyce) 13. 11:22 AM - Re: another fusing question (craig bastin) 14. 11:54 AM - Re: 30A slo-blo fuse (Jeff B) 15. 02:04 PM - Re: 30A slo-blo fuse (Paul McAllister) 16. 08:21 PM - Re: 30A slo-blo fuse (Kingsley Hurst) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:10:05 AM PST US From: Jan de Jong Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in Checking with John and Roger at the factory re tank installation. 1. The last of the original (2004) Ltd crew is retiring and having its last day at the office today. The end of a period - again. Roger will be available by e-mail for a while for technical questions. He monitors this forum. If I say a lie he will correct I'm sure. 2. The gaseous tank treatment introduced to prevent swelling causes epoxy to bond to the tank material. Thermal expansion rate difference is the most likely cause for tearing tanks. Prescription: Install in accordance with the manual but with a permanent release film between layup and tank. No other measures are necessary and triboelectrics are not an issue. ( Googling gives a linear thermal expansion coefficient difference between glass reinforced epoxy and polyethylene in the order of 1 in 10000 per degree C. That would be 1 mm per 20 cm for 50 degree C. ) Cheers, Jan de Jong ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:41 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Europa-List: 30A slo-blo fuse The wiring diagram for the Europa Rotax installation shows 2 off 30A slo-blo fuses, in the battery & alternator lines to the main busbar. What hardware have UK builders used to realise these fuses? And where did you get it? All the fuses I've found readily available are automotive blade fuses which all seem to be fast-blow. There are also industrial cartridge fuses (10mm x 38mm) which will fit the inline fuseholders available from Halfords (Autoleads AGU part # G2-30-H) but neither these nor the ones supllied in the Autoleads holders indicate the speed of blowing. ANL type current limiters sound nice but (a) are difficult to get in UK and (b) the minimum size is 35A. Pete Smoothy at Airworld says he can get 40A ones from B&C. But a 40A ANL is maybe too loose to protect 10AWG wires? And how important is it anyway to fit slow-blow as opposed to fast-blow in these positions? Opinions, part numbers, suppliers details, all welcome! regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://home.clara.net/rowil/ | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:48:22 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Europa-List: another fusing question The Europa wiring diagram shows 1A fuses to protect the wires penetrating the firewall from the current shunt and the starter relay. However, no fuses are shown on the wires from the regulator to the alternator warning light. I plan to put a fuse in both these wires (as, if I understand the operation aright, both will normally be at a nominal 12V). Is there any reason why I shouldn't fuse these wires - or indeed why fuses are not shown on the digram? regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://home.clara.net/rowil/ | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:09 AM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in Jan is there any suggestion for those of us who have already bonded in as per the manual? ...And to take the opportunity also to say Happy Christmas to all and thanks for all the help in 2009. Will Jan de Jong wrote: > 2. > The gaseous tank treatment introduced to prevent swelling causes epoxy > to bond to the tank material. > Thermal expansion rate difference is the most likely cause for tearing > tanks. > Prescription: > Install in accordance with the manual but with a permanent release film > between layup and tank. > No other measures are necessary and triboelectrics are not an issue. > > ( > Googling gives a linear thermal expansion coefficient difference between > glass reinforced epoxy and polyethylene in the order of 1 in 10000 per > degree C. > That would be 1 mm per 20 cm for 50 degree C. > ) > > Cheers, > Jan de Jong > > > _ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:20 AM PST US From: "Richard Churchill-Coleman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in William, I asked Roger about this yesterday (on his almost last day) because the factory built my cockpit module and bonded in the tank as per the instructions. His comforting words were that the shear stress issues were being experienced by extreme temperature ranges and would not cause problems for "normal" (ie UK and mainland western Europe) temperatures..... Not sure how much that helps for your circumstances... RCC -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell Sent: 23 December 2009 13:05 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in Jan is there any suggestion for those of us who have already bonded in as per the manual? ...And to take the opportunity also to say Happy Christmas to all and thanks for all the help in 2009. Will Jan de Jong wrote: > 2. > The gaseous tank treatment introduced to prevent swelling causes epoxy > to bond to the tank material. > Thermal expansion rate difference is the most likely cause for tearing > tanks. > Prescription: > Install in accordance with the manual but with a permanent release > film between layup and tank. > No other measures are necessary and triboelectrics are not an issue. > > ( > Googling gives a linear thermal expansion coefficient difference > between glass reinforced epoxy and polyethylene in the order of 1 in > 10000 per degree C. > That would be 1 mm per 20 cm for 50 degree C. > ) > > Cheers, > Jan de Jong > > > _ Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 18:22:00 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:31 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in From: Peter Zutrauen This is the first I have heard of thermal expansion being attributed as a contributor to cracking. It was my understanding that even the flourinated tanks swell, and it was the swelling + adhesion of the epoxy (restricting the swelling locally, creating point-stresses) which was the cause of some cracking. - Or have I mis-understood the previous reports and email threads? Thx, Pete A239 -tank not yet installed, and contemplating the design and construction of an all-composite tank (...the Cozy and LongEze builders have geen doing it for years...no?). On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 7:06 AM, Jan de Jong wrote: > > Checking with John and Roger at the factory re tank installation. > > 1. > The last of the original (2004) Ltd crew is retiring and having its last > day at the office today. The end of a period - again. > Roger will be available by e-mail for a while for technical questions. He > monitors this forum. If I say a lie he will correct I'm sure. > > 2. > The gaseous tank treatment introduced to prevent swelling causes epoxy to > bond to the tank material. > Thermal expansion rate difference is the most likely cause for tearing > tanks. > Prescription: > Install in accordance with the manual but with a permanent release film > between layup and tank. > No other measures are necessary and triboelectrics are not an issue. > > ( > Googling gives a linear thermal expansion coefficient difference between > glass reinforced epoxy and polyethylene in the order of 1 in 10000 per > degree C. > That would be 1 mm per 20 cm for 50 degree C. > ) > > Cheers, > Jan de Jong > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:01 AM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in Richard thanks, it is a little disquieting because although BOG is pretty much like English Summer all year round due to altitude (8500); fly 30 mins and you land at 1000 and it is absolutely baking! I suspect that some of the US builders/flyers probably have more experience of temp differentials. Yours Will Richard Churchill-Coleman wrote: > > William, > > I asked Roger about this yesterday (on his almost last day) because the > factory built my cockpit module and bonded in the tank as per the > instructions. His comforting words were that the shear stress issues were > being experienced by extreme temperature ranges and would not cause problems > for "normal" (ie UK and mainland western Europe) temperatures..... > > Not sure how much that helps for your circumstances... > RCC > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:38 AM PST US From: Bob Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in Pete, My thoughts as well. And I have a factory assembled CM with bonded tank. And because I had the same understanding as you, I keep the tank full and won't empty it for an extended time if at all possible. Where do we go from here? *** Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all *** Bob Borger On Wednesday, December 23, 2009, at 08:13AM, "Peter Zutrauen" wrote: > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:11:47 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: How is Europa doing? From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hey Nev Best wishes and happy holidays. I read on forum that Roger is leaving Europa. I guess he is the last of the oldies. How are they doing? Thx. Sincerely Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:32 AM PST US From: "Steven Pitt" Subject: Re: Europa-List: 30A slo-blo fuse Rowland I used 2 x 30amp Potter and Brumfield circuit breakers which have worked without a problem. I am about to move them as per Ian Rickards installation as they do not need to be in the panel, which means disconnecting them every time you want to remove the panel. Ask Ian for a photo of his very neat installation. Regards Steve Pitt G-SMDH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rowland Carson" Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:24 PM Subject: Europa-List: 30A slo-blo fuse > > The wiring diagram for the Europa Rotax installation shows 2 off 30A > slo-blo fuses, in the battery & alternator lines to the main busbar. > > What hardware have UK builders used to realise these fuses? And where > did you get it? > > All the fuses I've found readily available are automotive blade fuses > which all seem to be fast-blow. > > There are also industrial cartridge fuses (10mm x 38mm) which will > fit the inline fuseholders available from Halfords (Autoleads AGU > part # G2-30-H) but neither these nor the ones supllied in the > Autoleads holders indicate the speed of blowing. > > ANL type current limiters sound nice but (a) are difficult to get in > UK and (b) the minimum size is 35A. Pete Smoothy at Airworld says he > can get 40A ones from B&C. But a 40A ANL is maybe too loose to > protect 10AWG wires? > > And how important is it anyway to fit slow-blow as opposed to > fast-blow in these positions? > > Opinions, part numbers, suppliers details, all welcome! > > regards > > Rowland > -- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 08:28:00 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:34 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Europa-List: Fuel tank installation without bonding it in Though I recall seriously questioning the bonding called for in the manual, I blithely went ahead and laid up the glass on the tank...much to my chagrin. Because of the isolated reports of swelling, I did install a padded FG "shield", intended to enhance the apparent function of EURO 25 spacers shown on pg. 16-5, Fig. 7. At this point, I intend to place a release film between underside of tank and the inside surface of the bottom of the fuselage and squirt some non-expanding foam through the twin access ports to fill the gap between tank and fuselage. I'll use a long straw on the foam can in order to raise the possibility of ending up with a full bed of foam...the intention being to provide uniform support for the fuel tank and to minimize any stresses on the tank caused by it being cantilevered from the FG "straps" previously bonded to the tank. This is a procedure described in Ron Pagoris's build-log. To my knowledge, this is a theoretical band-aide with no operational experience which might speak to its effectiveness. ...my 2 cents...comments & wisdom welcome, Fred A194 On Dec 23, 2009, at 6:46 AM, Bob Borger wrote: > Pete, > > My thoughts as well. And I have a factory assembled CM with bonded > tank. > > And because I had the same understanding as you, I keep the tank > full and won't empty it for an extended time if at all possible. > > Where do we go from here? > > *** Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all *** > > Bob Borger > > On Wednesday, December 23, 2009, at 08:13AM, "Peter Zutrauen" > wrote: > > > This is the first I have heard of thermal expansion being attributed > as a contributor to cracking. > > It was my understanding that even the flourinated tanks swell, and > it was the swelling + adhesion of the epoxy (restricting the > swelling locally, creating point-stresses) which was the cause of > some cracking. - Or have I mis-understood the previous reports and > email threads? ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:14 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: 30A slo-blo fuse Rowland, Having researched the question at the time and taken a fair bit of advice, I also used 30 amp switched circuit breakers, (from RD Aviation, but can't tell you the make without going back to the plane), which act as my main & alternator switches, and have given faultless service for 7 yrs., although I haven't put them to the test of having something downstream short out! Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rowland Carson" Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:24 PM Subject: Europa-List: 30A slo-blo fuse > > The wiring diagram for the Europa Rotax installation shows 2 off 30A > slo-blo fuses, in the battery & alternator lines to the main busbar. > > What hardware have UK builders used to realise these fuses? And where did > you get it? > > All the fuses I've found readily available are automotive blade fuses > which all seem to be fast-blow. > > There are also industrial cartridge fuses (10mm x 38mm) which will fit the > inline fuseholders available from Halfords (Autoleads AGU part # G2-30-H) > but neither these nor the ones supllied in the Autoleads holders indicate > the speed of blowing. > > ANL type current limiters sound nice but (a) are difficult to get in UK > and (b) the minimum size is 35A. Pete Smoothy at Airworld says he can get > 40A ones from B&C. But a 40A ANL is maybe too loose to protect 10AWG > wires? > > And how important is it anyway to fit slow-blow as opposed to fast-blow in > these positions? > > Opinions, part numbers, suppliers details, all welcome! > > regards > > Rowland > -- > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:49 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: another fusing question The "typical" setup for most alternator warning lights, is for the bulb to actually earth through the regulator, and the rising voltage stops this from happening when the alternator is working correctly thus shutting off the light, the 12v for the lamp will in effect be going out through the firewall instead of in, which may be why the dont show a fuse, the worst result of a short in the line would likely be the light coming on and staying on. But please check the diagram to be sure this is the case. craig kit 577 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:44 AM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: 30A slo-blo fuse Rowland, I used standard large blade automotive fuses in my installation, with no ill effects. Auto store has them with the fuse holder and #10 wire attached. Jeff - Baby Blue Rowland Carson wrote: > > The wiring diagram for the Europa Rotax installation shows 2 off 30A > slo-blo fuses, in the battery & alternator lines to the main busbar. > > What hardware have UK builders used to realise these fuses? And where > did you get it? > > All the fuses I've found readily available are automotive blade fuses > which all seem to be fast-blow. > > There are also industrial cartridge fuses (10mm x 38mm) which will fit > the inline fuseholders available from Halfords (Autoleads AGU part # > G2-30-H) but neither these nor the ones supllied in the Autoleads > holders indicate the speed of blowing. > > ANL type current limiters sound nice but (a) are difficult to get in UK > and (b) the minimum size is 35A. Pete Smoothy at Airworld says he can > get 40A ones from B&C. But a 40A ANL is maybe too loose to protect 10AWG > wires? > > And how important is it anyway to fit slow-blow as opposed to fast-blow > in these positions? > > Opinions, part numbers, suppliers details, all welcome! > > regards > > Rowland > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: 30A slo-blo fuse From: Paul McAllister Hi Rowland, I used some industrial ceramic fuses and have them in the engine compartment. Given what they need to protect I would consider using a fusible link. Cheers, Paul ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:36 PM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: 30A slo-blo fuse Another quite elegant solution is strip fuses available from Vehicle Wiring Products (UK) See attached, the black things above the Master Solenoid. 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