---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/30/09: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:34 AM - Re: Is it possible to register for VAT (ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk) 2. 05:35 AM - Monowheel Flap Operation (flyingphil2) 3. 06:19 AM - Re: Monowheel Flap Operation (Peter Zutrauen) 4. 06:50 AM - Re: Monowheel Flap Operation (david miller) 5. 06:52 AM - Re: Monowheel Flap Operation (Bob Borger) 6. 06:54 AM - Re: Monowheel Flap Operation (Graham Singleton) 7. 06:58 AM - Re: Monowheel Flap Operation (Graham Singleton) 8. 07:09 AM - Re: Monowheel Flap Operation (Fred Klein) 9. 07:30 AM - Re: Monowheel Flap Operation (rampil) 10. 08:50 AM - Re: Re: Monowheel Flap Operation (Jeff B) 11. 02:08 PM - Re: Re: Monowheel Flap Operation (david miller) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:34:44 AM PST US From: "ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Is it possible to register for VAT Hi! Kourtney Surely you don't think the British Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise are so stupid as to allow you to be excused paying a statutory tax? The only way you may get through the hoop is to register as a company or sole trader and commit to doing VAT returns quarterly and sooner or later they will catch up with you ,miss a return and they will be on you like a ton of bricks. I don't know what procedure applies to deregister but you can bet somewhere some system exists to do the "bean" counting and hence an indepth investigation will follow. Drop it through a busy company accounts system and you may get through after saving all the paperwork for the obligatory seven years but you can expect to have at least one VAT inspection with you "stood by the bed" in that period. Just pay up like we all have to do! or get someone to act as a carrier across borders for you but they are as rare a hens teeth ! Happy New Year and enjoy doing your sums again ! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG >----Original Message---- >From: kourtneymario@yahoo.in >Date: 29/12/2009 5:10 >To: >Subj: Europa-List: Is it possible to register for VAT > in> > >Is it possible to register for VAT and then de-register soonafter? I have set up a website and would love to get my VAT on the build costs back. Trouble is, I don't want to have to charge VAT going forward so would want to deregister. Is this allowed? > >-------- >i need help > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279068#279068 > > 2009: A year in review - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/2009 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:34 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel Flap Operation From: "flyingphil2" Hi, I'm just following up on something I read on a recent thread and had thought of before. The thread mentioned that "a few of the mono builders are opting for the trike flap drive". I'm not flying a mono yet but have flown in them and had noticed that they take off with full flap. It had occurred to me that the flap drive motor may be a better idea. I'm not sure how you would deal with the outriggers but what do mono pilots think about this? There is the drag of full flap on take off and the pitch change when you put it away. Having said that, the person I flew with partially raised the gear and allowed it to float at half flap for a short while whilst climbing out to reduce the pitch change. Is that the best technique to use or is fitting a motor and making the flaps independent of undercarriage better or is there in fact no problem at all? Regards, Phil Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279195#279195 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:38 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel Flap Operation From: Peter Zutrauen I wonder how disconnecting the flaps from the gear affects the insurance rates (ie- a more complex aircraft)? For sure it would make it a whole lot easier to land gear-up. Cheers, Pete A239 On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 8:34 AM, flyingphil2 wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm just following up on something I read on a recent thread and had > thought of before. > > The thread mentioned that "a few of the mono builders are opting for the > trike flap drive". I'm not flying a mono yet but have flown in them and had > noticed that they take off with full flap. It had occurred to me that the > flap drive motor may be a better idea. > > I'm not sure how you would deal with the outriggers but what do mono pilots > think about this? There is the drag of full flap on take off and the pitch > change when you put it away. Having said that, the person I flew with > partially raised the gear and allowed it to float at half flap for a short > while whilst climbing out to reduce the pitch change. Is that the best > technique to use or is fitting a motor and making the flaps independent of > undercarriage better or is there in fact no problem at all? > > Regards, > > Phil > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279195#279195 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:54 AM PST US From: david miller Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel Flap Operation Hi Pete, The insurer will not ask the question, I doubt that it will affect the premium one way or the other. I find that the Tri-gear needs about 20 degrees of flap on take off, so there may not be much advantage to adding an electric flap drive to a mono. Dave A061 : > I wonder how disconnecting the flaps from the gear affects the > insurance rates (ie- a more complex aircraft)? > > > Pete > A239 > > > The thread mentioned that "a few of the mono builders are opting > for the trike flap drive". I'm not flying a mono yet but have > flown in them and had noticed that they take off with full flap. > It had occurred to me that the flap drive motor may be a better idea. > > > Phil > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279195#279195 > > > ========== > ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com > ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com > "_blank">www.howtocrimp.com > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > le, List Admin. > ========== > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:25 AM PST US From: Bob Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel Flap Operation Phil, FWIW, from my massive 20 hours and 50 or so takeoffs and landings in my monowheel. I see it as a solution in search of a non-existent problem. On takeoff, I find the best procedure is to gain some comfortable airspeed and altitude, slip the gear lever out of the down-notch and slide it forward at a pace that allow you to compensate for the pitch change and provides minimal change in rate of climb. If you just pop the gear handle out of the down-notch and slap it smartly forward into the up-notch, you have a rapid pitch change, climb stops and you may settle some before you accelerate out and begin to climb again. For landing, just the opposite. Arrive in the pattern, slow below the 80 kt flap extension speed, take the gear handle out of the up-notch and bring it smartly aft and into the down-notch, make sure the down-lock is in place. It gets the pitch change out of the way without much fuss, you are in landing configuration and the gear is down and locked. If you start messing with a slow, cautious extension at various places along the pattern, you will be distracted somewhere along the way and the gear won't end up down and locked. I also see the potential for one of the outriggers not making it into the down latch if the handle isn't operated smartly. Just my 2 cents worth. I'm sure there will be other procedures and opinions. Wishing all a Most Prosperous New Year! Check six, Bob Borger Europa XS Monowheel, Intercooled Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S prop. Hoping for weather warm enough that I can complete the fuel system mods this weekend. On Wednesday, December 30, 2009, at 07:34AM, "flyingphil2" wrote: > >Hi, > >I'm just following up on something I read on a recent thread and had thought of before. > >The thread mentioned that "a few of the mono builders are opting for the trike flap drive". I'm not flying a mono yet but have flown in them and had noticed that they take off with full flap. It had occurred to me that the flap drive motor may be a better idea. > >I'm not sure how you would deal with the outriggers but what do mono pilots think about this? There is the drag of full flap on take off and the pitch change when you put it away. Having said that, the person I flew with partially raised the gear and allowed it to float at half flap for a short while whilst climbing out to reduce the pitch change. Is that the best technique to use or is fitting a motor and making the flaps independent of undercarriage better or is there in fact no problem at all? > >Regards, > >Phil > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279195#279195 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:19 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel Flap Operation Phil imho, yes it is. There is no load on the flap drive, all flight loads are taken along the flap hangers except perhaps a bit of skin friction. The flap should stay anywhere you put it in flight without having to hold the lever. Only load on the lever is the weight of the gear, hence the importance of the bungee and its tension Graham flyingphil2 wrote: > Having said that, the person I flew with partially raised the gear and allowed it to float at half flap for a short while whilst climbing out to reduce the pitch change. Is that the best technique to use or is fitting a motor and making the flaps independent of undercarriage better or is there in fact no problem at all? > > Regards, > > Phil > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:35 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel Flap Operation Bob you put it better than I did. Worth more than 2 cents ;-) Graham Bob Borger wrote: > For landing, just the opposite. Arrive in the pattern, slow below the 80 kt flap extension speed, take the gear handle out of the up-notch and bring it smartly aft and into the down-notch, make sure the down-lock is in place. It gets the pitch change out of the way without much fuss, you are in landing configuration and the gear is down and locked. If you start messing with a slow, cautious extension at various places along the pattern, you will be distracted somewhere along the way and the gear won't end up down and locked. I also see the potential for one of the outriggers not making it into the down latch if the handle isn't operated smartly. > > Just my 2 cents worth. I'm sure there will be other procedures and opinions. > > Wishing all a Most Prosperous New Year! > > Check six, > Bob Borger ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:59 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel Flap Operation ...an interesting topic...as a mono-builder, I've put in the hardpoint for the flap motor as per the trigear supplement to facilitate possible future conversion...remains to be determined how, in such an event, I would retract the outriggers...Eric Trombley, if I recall correctly, has an electric outrigger retract system which buries the entire assembly within the Classic foam wing; I know of several electric retract installations which leave the pivoting assembly intact. OTOH, I know of one Brit who leaves his outriggers down all the time as he is convinced and confident that stowing them does not reduce drag by a measurable amount. ...for anyone who has pretty much followed the build manual and is concerned about finishing his bird too soon, I'd say that this topic would take one off at a suitable tangent and suck up 6 months to a year...bearing in mind that the proper operation of the outrigger system is mission critical every time you land. I'm content to leave this sleeping dog lie (or is it lay?). Notwithstanding my personal aviation mantra ("always manage the degree of novelty"), I've become somewhat of a deviant in my Europa build so I'm no one to talk...satisfying, but it definitely impacts time before first flight. a penny's worth, Fred A194 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:33 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Monowheel Flap Operation From: "rampil" Hi Pete, I am curious about your comment that the trike needs 20 (essentially full) flaps selected for takeoff. That does not match my experience, which addmittedly is not huge and 99% on hard surface, but includes 256 hrs, and over 600 landings or T&G. I use flaps with measureable salutory effect when the DA exceeds 2500', and then I only use 10 degrees. Without flaps and a DA < 1000', I am usually passing 50' altitude by 1000' of runway (no pax of course), and climb rate at Vy usually exceeds 1000 fpm comfortably. Can you please tell us more about your experience in why need flaps for takeoff? Happy New Year, Ira -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279215#279215 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:44 AM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Monowheel Flap Operation I use about 10 degrees, flap on hard surfaces and 15 degrees or so on turf, as a general rule. circumstances may dictate some deviation from these practices, of course. BTW, I've found that the Tri-gear doesn't "require" flaps, at all, for t/o and landing. They are simply a convenience... Jeff - Baby Blue rampil wrote: > > Hi Pete, > > I am curious about your comment that the trike needs 20 (essentially full) > flaps selected for takeoff. That does not match my experience, which > addmittedly is not huge and 99% on hard surface, but includes 256 hrs, > and over 600 landings or T&G. > > I use flaps with measureable salutory effect when the DA exceeds 2500', > and then I only use 10 degrees. Without flaps and a DA < 1000', I am usually passing 50' altitude by 1000' of runway (no pax of course), and > climb rate at Vy usually exceeds 1000 fpm comfortably. > > Can you please tell us more about your experience in why need flaps for > takeoff? > > Happy New Year, > > Ira > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279215#279215 > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:08:51 PM PST US From: david miller Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Monowheel Flap Operation Hi Ira, Blame me for that, not Pete. I usually fly with a passenger ( hope he has not put on weight over the holidays ), and am at max weight, also with the 2 of us the C of G is near the front end of the envelope. This may explain why to me the take off goes better with more flap. I've tried no flap take offs, but the ground run seems longer. Years ago Jim Thursby suggested full down aileron and matching the flap to this, I took this to be about 20 degrees, but perhaps that is not the case. Dave A061 On 30-Dec-09, at 10:29 AM, rampil wrote: > > Hi Pete, > > I am curious about your comment that the trike needs 20 > (essentially full) > flaps selected for takeoff. That does not match my experience, which > addmittedly is not huge and 99% on hard surface, but includes 256 hrs, > and over 600 landings or T&G. > > I use flaps with measureable salutory effect when the DA exceeds > 2500', > and then I only use 10 degrees. Without flaps and a DA < 1000', I > am usually passing 50' altitude by 1000' of runway (no pax of > course), and > climb rate at Vy usually exceeds 1000 fpm comfortably. > > Can you please tell us more about your experience in why need flaps > for > takeoff? > > Happy New Year, > > Ira > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279215#279215 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.