Europa-List Digest Archive

Sat 01/02/10


Total Messages Posted: 20



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:17 AM - Re: Wing Lateral push rod (flyingphil2)
     2. 02:24 AM - Re: Woodcomp SR 3000 (David Joyce)
     3. 05:50 AM - Woodcomp SR 3000 (Carl Pattinson)
     4. 06:48 AM - Re: cold starting tips 912S (William Daniell)
     5. 06:48 AM - Flap cross tube (William Daniell)
     6. 07:34 AM - Aft battery (Fergus Kyle)
     7. 07:34 AM - Re: Flap cross tube (Brian Davies)
     8. 07:37 AM - Re: Flap cross tube (Frans Veldman)
     9. 07:55 AM - Re: Flap cross tube (Graham Singleton)
    10. 08:17 AM - Re: Aft battery (Frans Veldman)
    11. 10:12 AM - Re: Aft battery (Robert Borger)
    12. 10:42 AM - Re: Aft battery (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
    13. 11:04 AM - Flap rubbing on aileron was Flap cross tube (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
    14. 12:14 PM - Re: Europa-Cold Cruse Temps (JEFF ROBERTS)
    15. 12:42 PM - Re: Re: Europa-Cold Cruse Temps (Gilles Thesee)
    16. 02:25 PM - Flap drive tube hinge location hard points ...fuelage floor. (Robert C Harrison)
    17. 02:25 PM - Re: Aft battery (Robert C Harrison)
    18. 03:42 PM - Re: cold starting tips 912S (Jeff B)
    19. 03:56 PM - Re: Re: Europa-Cold Cruse Temps (JEFF ROBERTS)
    20. 04:34 PM - Re: Re: Europa-Cold Cruse Temps (Gilles Thesee)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 01:17:49 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Wing Lateral push rod
    From: "flyingphil2" <ptiller@lolacars.com>
    Hi Pete, Thanks for the reply. If it's not too much trouble to scan and email those pages then I'd appreciate it. I think you have my email address but if not then use the PM function. Regards, Phil Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279725#279725


    Message 2


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    Time: 02:24:29 AM PST US
    From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
    Subject: Re: Woodcomp SR 3000
    Carl, Will send in to you off list, David Joyce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 11:59 PM Subject: Europa-List: Woodcomp SR 3000 > <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> > > Hi, > > Does anyone have a copy of the factory assembly instructions for the 3 > blade Woodcomp propeller. I was sure the factory emailed me them when > they returned my prop but cant find it anywhere. > > Have asked Jiri from Woodcomp for another copy but if anybody has one > available it would be appreciated. I believe it is in Excel file format. > > Thanks in advance. > > Carl Pattinson > > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:50:34 AM PST US
    From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Woodcomp SR 3000
    Merry Christmas Everybody (belated) and a Happy New Year. And especially thanks for those who sent me the prop assembly instructions - this Europa community is unbelievably useful ! My next project is a gyro camera stabiliser (or any sort of stabiliser - as long as it kills the vibrations) - any suggestions. The pro version runs to thousands of dollars (very good but beyond my price range). ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 10:23 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp SR 3000 > > <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> > > Carl, Will send in to you off list, David Joyce > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 11:59 PM > Subject: Europa-List: Woodcomp SR 3000 > > >> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> >> >> Hi, >> >> Does anyone have a copy of the factory assembly instructions for the 3 >> blade Woodcomp propeller. I was sure the factory emailed me them when >> they returned my prop but cant find it anywhere. >> >> Have asked Jiri from Woodcomp for another copy but if anybody has one >> available it would be appreciated. I believe it is in Excel file format. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Carl Pattinson >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 06:48:20 AM PST US
    From: William Daniell <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
    Subject: Re: cold starting tips 912S
    Jeff why one mag? Will Jeff B wrote: > > Richard, > > Turn the prop through several blades, by hand (24 or so with ignition > off), then start on one mag, adding the second as soon as the engine fires. > > Jeff - Baby Blue > > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 06:48:20 AM PST US
    From: William Daniell <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
    Subject: Flap cross tube
    thanks graham for the deflection note. Another question for the collective wisdom of group. The flap cross tube is too far to the left such that the right hinge bracket has two holes off the hard point (off the left edge) and the left slot is right on the left edge of the left hard point. In order to get the hinge brackets onto the hard point the rod would have to move right about 3/8 inch. I shaved 1/16 off the rod to get it to fit between the flaps at full retraction without pushing them out and currently the two bearings are right up against the flap roots fully retracted but without pushing the flaps outboard. I have tried full deflection and with the cross tube 3/8 to the right which puts both hinge brackets on the hard points and there appears to be a lot of of the flap root pin still to go on the left. The manual is not specific about max clearance at fully retracted between cross tube and flap root...it just says "small clearance". Is small 1/16 1/8 or 1/4? So please can you tell me what the rough clearance is between your flap root and the cross tube fully retracted so I can have an idea about the range of possibilities. Happy New year to everyone and thanks in advance. Will


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:34:38 AM PST US
    From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
    Subject: Aft battery
    I seem to recall someone placing his/her battery aft to balance the aircraft. I would like to ask if that someone would be kind enough to describe how the square-type item is mounted in the roundie-kind aft fuselage - contoured bulkheads, foam filler, size plywood etc. Thanks, Ferg Still wiring


    Message 7


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    Time: 07:34:38 AM PST US
    From: "Brian Davies" <bdavies@dircon.co.uk>
    Subject: Flap cross tube
    Hi William, The factory issued a mandatory SB16 in June 2008 (available on their website) that specifies the maximum gap with the flap fully down so that will be the limiting factor. I understood that with the flaps in the up position you could expect a slight push of the flaps outboard. Hope that helps, Regards Brian Davies -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell Sent: 02 January 2010 14:38 Subject: Europa-List: Flap cross tube thanks graham for the deflection note. Another question for the collective wisdom of group. The flap cross tube is too far to the left such that the right hinge bracket has two holes off the hard point (off the left edge) and the left slot is right on the left edge of the left hard point. In order to get the hinge brackets onto the hard point the rod would have to move right about 3/8 inch. I shaved 1/16 off the rod to get it to fit between the flaps at full retraction without pushing them out and currently the two bearings are right up against the flap roots fully retracted but without pushing the flaps outboard. I have tried full deflection and with the cross tube 3/8 to the right which puts both hinge brackets on the hard points and there appears to be a lot of of the flap root pin still to go on the left. The manual is not specific about max clearance at fully retracted between cross tube and flap root...it just says "small clearance". Is small 1/16 1/8 or 1/4? So please can you tell me what the rough clearance is between your flap root and the cross tube fully retracted so I can have an idea about the range of possibilities. Happy New year to everyone and thanks in advance. Will


    Message 8


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    Time: 07:37:34 AM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
    Subject: Re: Flap cross tube
    On 01/02/2010 03:38 PM, William Daniell wrote: > I have tried full deflection and with the cross tube 3/8 to the right > which puts both hinge brackets on the hard points and there appears to > be a lot of of the flap root pin still to go on the left. > > The manual is not specific about max clearance at fully retracted > between cross tube and flap root...it just says "small clearance". Is > small 1/16 1/8 or 1/4? Have you noticed the SB about this subject? A Europa here in the Netherlands nearly crashed when, due to a rough touch-down during a touch-and-go, the pin slipped out of the cross tube, and upon flap retraction, the flap was pushed outwards against the aileron, resulting in a lock-up of the aileron. (And because the pilot had no clue what was causing the sudden lock-up, he opted for landing with a locked-up aileron). For this reason I have zero clearance between the cross tube and flap root, as I can't see the benefit of *any* clearance here. The flaps allow some sideways motion by the design of their hinges anyway, so any stress will find an unharmfull way out. The more pin you get into the cross tube, the less likely the chance that with full flaps down a sideways jerk to the flaps will get the pin out of the cross tube. About your question: You have not mentioned why your cross tube won't fit onto the hard points properly. Are the hard points imbedded at the wrong locations? Is the cross tube itself manufactured incorrectly, or is one of your flaps just a tad too short? I would rather fix any of these anomalies, than to install the cross tube off the hard points or have more than neglectable clearance between the flap root and the cross tube. Happy new year to everyone! Frans


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:55:56 AM PST US
    From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Flap cross tube
    Frans the flaps will be pushed outboard when retracted, so you need just enough clearance, 1/2mm say with flaps retracted. Otherwise they might start to push the aileron outwards Graham Frans Veldman wrote: > For this reason I have zero clearance between the cross tube and flap > root, as I can't see the benefit of *any* clearance here. The flaps > allow some sideways motion by the design of their hinges anyway, so any > stress will find an unharmfull way out. The more pin you get into the > cross tube, the less likely the chance that with full flaps down a > sideways jerk to the flaps will get the pin out of the cross tube. > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 08:17:06 AM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
    Subject: Re: Aft battery
    On 01/02/2010 03:23 PM, Fergus Kyle wrote: > I seem to recall someone placing his/her battery aft to balance the > aircraft. I would like to ask if that someone would be kind enough to > describe how the square-type item is mounted in the roundie-kind aft > fuselage - contoured bulkheads, foam filler, size plywood etc. I made an aluminium tray for the batteries, that "hangs" on the bagage floor. This tray is also the mount for the starter relay, and mass rail. The bagage floor is stronger than the fuselage at that point, allows for easy access, and you don't have to drill holes through the fuselage skin. Frans


    Message 11


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    Time: 10:12:45 AM PST US
    From: Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com>
    Subject: Re: Aft battery
    Ferg, Go to my build web site, album Year#7 Q3 2008, page 5 and you will see a couple pics on how I handled the situation. My friend Tommy made the base and strap for the battery so it is metal. When a friend asks to help, you don't question, you accept the assistance. I probably would have done something with a thin sheet of urethane foam covered in a ply or two of fiberglass, but this worked very well. You can see that it was bonded under the starboard side baggage bay with Araldite so there are no holes in the fuselage and it's not going anywhere. Hope this helps... Check six, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL Aircraft Flying! 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Jan 2, 2010, at 8:23, Fergus Kyle wrote: > I seem to recall someone placing his/her battery aft to balance the aircraft. I would like to ask if that someone would be kind enough to describe how the square-type item is mounted in the roundie-kind aft fuselage ' contoured bulkheads, foam filler, size plywood etc. > > Thanks, Ferg > > Still wiring > > > >


    Message 12


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    Time: 10:42:01 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Aft battery
    From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us
    Hi Ferg "someone placing his/her battery aft to balance the aircraft." Here is info on my aft battery install: http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=30710 Note the "Kool" balsa battery hold down. If by chance I needed to move the box, easy cut bid and move. If by chance you are still nose heavy, here is an ideaI implimented that also removes about 15% of the stress on the stabilator drive pins: http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=28658 Ron Parigoris


    Message 13


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    Time: 11:04:10 AM PST US
    Subject: Flap rubbing on aileron was Flap cross tube
    From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us
    Hi Frans "the flap was pushed outwards against the aileron, resulting in a lock-up of the aileron." This was always a concern for me even though the factory assured me since there is no reason for ther flaps to be pushed outboard, just not worry about it. I could not not worry about it. I will not knowinglyfly an aeroplane where a control surface can be fairly easily be jammed by a slightact of God. I built up my outboard flap closeout so it is smooth and is in factnow myflap stop.With theflap jammed outboard rubbing on my stop (smooth closeout) I have clearance between my flap and aileron. With my flap not being stressed outboardthere is just about 1/8" clearance between flap and stop. Here are some pictures: http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=37457 http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=37460 http:/http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php? http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=37663 http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=37666 http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=37669 No pics of sanded smooth but once flat flap fairly easily will slide on closeout with a good amount of outward pressure on flap. Ron Parigoris


    Message 14


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    Time: 12:14:45 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Europa-Cold Cruse Temps
    From: JEFF ROBERTS <Jeff@rmmm.net>
    With all the starting temps being discussed can anyone spread some light on minimums on cruising temps. Cold weather operation in the manual covers carb icing concerns but it doesn't really cover cruising temps. Maybe there isn't a reason to cover it. It's about 30 F outside right now. Other then maybe covering some of the radiator can anyone suggest other possible solutions to keeping the water temps up? Is there a minimum CHT we should watch out for? Happy New Year Everyone! Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush


    Message 15


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    Time: 12:42:06 PM PST US
    From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
    Subject: Re: Europa-Cold Cruse Temps
    JEFF ROBERTS a crit : > > With all the starting temps being discussed can anyone spread some > light on minimums on cruising temps. Cold weather operation in the > manual covers carb icing concerns but it doesn't really cover cruising > temps. Maybe there isn't a reason to cover it. It's about 30 F outside > right now. Other then maybe covering some of the radiator can anyone > suggest other possible solutions to keeping the water temps up? Is > there a minimum CHT we should watch out for? > Jeff and all, The Rotax manuals do state the optimum cylinder head and oil temps. One way to ensure proper temperatures is to use a correct cooling air duct and cowl flap. Thus when you reduce airflow through the radiators, you also reduce cooling drag. Other ways include providing too large an air supply to the radiators and blanking them up, or using an oil or water thermostat. But your airplanes experiences excessive cooling drag all the time... Some designer also combine poor cooling with excessive drag ;-) The basics of radiator aerodynamics can be seen here : http://contrails.free.fr/engine_aerodyn_radia_en.php The Europa cooling can be optimized, but this may imply some redesign of the cowling and radiator ducts. Happy New Year, Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr


    Message 16


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    Time: 02:25:06 PM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Flap drive tube hinge location hard points ...fuelage floor.
    Hi! Brian/William and all. It may be that two questions are getting merged here.? A) Williams original question seemed to me to be about the hard point locations in the fuselage floor to which the flap drive cross tube and hinge brackets are bolted. There were some kits (including mine No 337) which needed hard points repositioned to ensure adequate metal clear round the bolt holes but these were the tie cross tube and aft wing drag pin locators. B) The Service Bulletin was about an issue of possibility of the flap drive pin becoming disengaged from the flap drive cross tube. This bulletin called for some serious measurements to be taken to ensure that (I think) a minimum of 11mm of parallel diameter was still engaged in to the drive tube with the flap deployed down. Clearly the flap drive hinges need to be located correctly to satisfy the SB mentioned above but they also need to engage with the hard points with adequate hard points round the through bolts. On G-PTAG when I rig the starboard wing unless the flap drive pin is positioned dead in line when pushing the wing "home" to the fuselage it refuses to enter and so forces the flap outboard to seriously foul up with the aileron thus simulating the effect of what happened in flight in Holland. ( In my case I hadn't noticed until I did full and free checks with the control stick when the aileron refused to budge) Needless to say this is now an item of particular inspection during rigging and walk round preflight checks. I'm sorry William I don't feel qualified to specifically answer your original question. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Davies Sent: 02 January 2010 15:17 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Flap cross tube Hi William, The factory issued a mandatory SB16 in June 2008 (available on their website) that specifies the maximum gap with the flap fully down so that will be the limiting factor. I understood that with the flaps in the up position you could expect a slight push of the flaps outboard. Hope that helps, Regards Brian Davies -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell Sent: 02 January 2010 14:38 Subject: Europa-List: Flap cross tube thanks graham for the deflection note. Another question for the collective wisdom of group. The flap cross tube is too far to the left such that the right hinge bracket has two holes off the hard point (off the left edge) and the left slot is right on the left edge of the left hard point. In order to get the hinge brackets onto the hard point the rod would have to move right about 3/8 inch. I shaved 1/16 off the rod to get it to fit between the flaps at full retraction without pushing them out and currently the two bearings are right up against the flap roots fully retracted but without pushing the flaps outboard. I have tried full deflection and with the cross tube 3/8 to the right which puts both hinge brackets on the hard points and there appears to be a lot of of the flap root pin still to go on the left. The manual is not specific about max clearance at fully retracted between cross tube and flap root...it just says "small clearance". Is small 1/16 1/8 or 1/4? So please can you tell me what the rough clearance is between your flap root and the cross tube fully retracted so I can have an idea about the range of possibilities. Happy New year to everyone and thanks in advance. Will


    Message 17


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    Time: 02:25:06 PM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Aft battery
    Hi! Ferg Happy New Year . I started with a serious weight and balance issue with the Jabiru 6 seemingly needing the battery mounted aft. I made a base out of foam and glassed it all to the floor with hard points and through bolts to restrain the battery ...until I found that the length of the leads so needed wouldn't start the damn engine! Reverted to mounting them on the passenger side foot well within about 18" of the starter and then never had a problem with weight and balance OR starting! But have two Oddesy 13AH Batteries in parallel and a heavy duty starter on my now 914 ! Happy Days ! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle Sent: 02 January 2010 14:23 Subject: Europa-List: Aft battery I seem to recall someone placing his/her battery aft to balance the aircraft. I would like to ask if that someone would be kind enough to describe how the square-type item is mounted in the roundie-kind aft fuselage - contoured bulkheads, foam filler, size plywood etc. Thanks, Ferg Still wiring


    Message 18


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    Time: 03:42:30 PM PST US
    From: Jeff B <topglock@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: cold starting tips 912S
    Less ignition, less kickback? Just seems to work for me... Jeff - Baby Blue William Daniell wrote: > > Jeff > > why one mag? > > Will > > Jeff B wrote: >> >> Richard, >> >> Turn the prop through several blades, by hand (24 or so with ignition >> off), then start on one mag, adding the second as soon as the engine >> fires. >> >> Jeff - Baby Blue >> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >


    Message 19


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    Time: 03:56:54 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Europa-Cold Cruse Temps
    From: JEFF ROBERTS <Jeff@rmmm.net>
    Gilles & All, Yes the manuals state the optimized temps but my question is this. Keeping in mind I have no engineering or mechanical background I simply would like to know if there are known minimum sustained CHT temps and if so what have others done to raise them? I have not flown the Europa in very cold air and now that I have a heater I was wondering if there are minimums I need to watch out for. For now I'm only monitoring CHT and Oil temps. Best Regards, Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:41 PM, Gilles Thesee wrote: > > > > JEFF ROBERTS a crit : >> >> With all the starting temps being discussed can anyone spread some >> light on minimums on cruising temps. Cold weather operation in the >> manual covers carb icing concerns but it doesn't really cover >> cruising temps. Maybe there isn't a reason to cover it. It's about >> 30 F outside right now. Other then maybe covering some of the >> radiator can anyone suggest other possible solutions to keeping the >> water temps up? Is there a minimum CHT we should watch out for? >> > Jeff and all, > > The Rotax manuals do state the optimum cylinder head and oil temps. > One way to ensure proper temperatures is to use a correct cooling > air duct and cowl flap. Thus when you reduce airflow through the > radiators, you also reduce cooling drag. > Other ways include providing too large an air supply to the > radiators and blanking them up, or using an oil or water thermostat. > But your airplanes experiences excessive cooling drag all the time... > Some designer also combine poor cooling with excessive drag ;-) > The basics of radiator aerodynamics can be seen here : > http://contrails.free.fr/engine_aerodyn_radia_en.php > > The Europa cooling can be optimized, but this may imply some > redesign of the cowling and radiator ducts. > > Happy New Year, > Best regards, > -- > Gilles > http://contrails.free.fr > >


    Message 20


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    Time: 04:34:49 PM PST US
    From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
    Subject: Re: Europa-Cold Cruse Temps
    JEFF ROBERTS a crit : > > Gilles & All, > Yes the manuals state the optimized temps but my question is this. > Keeping in mind I have no engineering or mechanical background I > simply would like to know if there are known minimum sustained CHT temps The engine owner manual sez : > CHT max 135C > Normal operating temperature approx 75-110 C. In my understanding, 75C can be considered as the minimum operating temp. The green arc on our CHT gauge is therefore 75-110, et we ensure the temps stay within those values in flight. See http://contrails.free.fr/engine_liquide_refroid.php (scroll down and click on the panel picture) > and if so what have others done to raise them? We built a proper radiator duct and cowl flap, so keeping the temps within the green range is easy. As I mentioned, some just blank part of their radiator. But then the drag is always high. Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr




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