Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:35 AM - Re: Material for Instrument Panel (bmoorhouse)
2. 05:36 AM - Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? (Kevin Klinefelter)
3. 06:43 AM - Jabiru engines. (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
4. 07:26 AM - Re: Material for Instrument Panel (Steade)
5. 07:49 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 01/24/10 (John Lawton)
6. 08:59 AM - Re: Jabiru engines (Roland)
7. 09:40 AM - Prop-axis height: Jabiru vs Rotax (Peter Zutrauen)
8. 10:29 AM - Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
9. 10:45 AM - Re: Prop-axis height: Jabiru vs Rotax (Fred Klein)
10. 10:58 AM - Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? (Mike)
11. 12:14 PM - Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? (Cori Hayth)
12. 03:24 PM - Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Material for Instrument Panel |
flying farmer wrote:
> What about Carbon fiber sheeting. You will have a ready made finish if you like
the carbon fiber look.
>
> Richard Wheelwright
Mine is carbon fibre sheet - as a "sub panel" that holds all the instruments and
can be removed without taking the whole panel assembly off. Looks very good
with its almost holographic weave effect, is very light and very strong. Also
have carbon fibre sheet on the panel cover between the seats (I do not have finger
brakes).
I would recommend it if you can get some with a good polished finish.
--------
_______________
Barry Moorhouse
G-JHYS Trigear XS
Rotax 914 UL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283467#283467
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Subject: | Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? |
I have one, she does not fold away, and she looks fantastic!
But really, I thought of trying to install a slide out holder like my
Subaru has. Never did it though...
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us
To: Europa
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 10:18 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink
holder?
We are into our instrument panel mounting and modifying at the moment.
Anyone install an easy to use for pilot on port side drink holder that
perhaps folds away and looks not too cheezy?
Any details would be appreciated.
Thanking in advance.
Ron Parigoris
Message 3
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>>>>You just don't purge anything when changing oil on a Rotax : drain the
oil tank, put a new seal and filter, and pour fresh oil. We installed a
quick drain valve so the total time for an oil change is about 10
minutes including removing and reinstalling the cowling.<<<<
Hello Giles,
It might behoove you to take a look at the Rotax Service Instruction on
the 912 that came out last March (2009) regarding oil changes. Specifically,
SI-912-10R3 dated March 19, 2009. This SI runs concurrent with SI 912-018
entitled "Purging of Lubrication System" In SI 912-018, it specifically
describes how to purge the oil system when changing the oil in a 912/914 to
remove old oil and then how to rebleed the system with new oil. Doing this
procedures ensures that the journals, bearings, rocker arms, etc are all
properly lubricated prior to start up after the oil change. SI 912-010 R3
reiterates this method because so many Rotax 912/914 owners have not been
following the proper oil change procedure and bearing failures, among other
things, have resulted. Kerry down at Lockwood in Florida told me that if you
aren't doing this procedure "you are asking for trouble". There is a similar
SI issued for the 914 with the same date. Some people refer to this
procedure as "burping the engine" because of the noise it makes when you are
purging. You can simply drain the oil from the tank, change the filter and refill
with new oil, but you are leaving nearly a quart of old oil in the engine
and lines if you do it that way. I'm not that familiar with the 912/914
configuration as it exists in the Europa, but that is nearly 1/3rd of the oil
in my Ximango 912S oil system. Leaving 1/3rd of tht old oil in the lines
and engine kind of defeats the purpose of doing an oil change, doesn't it?
>>>>>Any serious engine manufacturer SHOULD issue dozens of SBs, SLs,
etc...<<<<<
Agreed. Rotax does do a fine job of documenting their failures and
resulting maintenance procedures and engine enhancements. This is why I suggested
to those who repeat the negative rumors about Jabiru engines to do some
reading and understand the history of their Rotax engines. I remember quite
well when the first 912's came out. They were much better boat anchors than
airplane engines. Rotax had all sorts of problems with it, but it has been
so long that many might not remember or be aware. My point was the 912/914
platform has it's own sorted history of failures and those failures continue
to this day if you don't follow Rotax maintenance procedures to the
letter.
The way the Jabiru engine is spoken of here on this forum it's as if it is
the only aircraft engine ever built that has had some growing pains after
initial release. Many here seem to think those growing pains suffered in
the early engines have not been corrected and as a result they are not
reliable engines. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The Jabiru engine
continues to be refined, just like the Rotax 912/914 and it has proven to be at
least as reliable as the Rotax, if not more so because it is so simple,
but, as with any aircraft engine you have to tune it for your airframe for
best results.
>>>>Lord Hives, manager of Rolls-Royce during the war said to Franck
Whittle
: "Give us your jet engine project, and we will soon design the
simplicity out of it ";-)
The early Jabiru were simple, but with time, they now have many many
more parts : hydraulic lifters, cam follower, crankshaft dowels,
etc...<<<<<
The Jabiru USA folks spent about 2 hours the first day of the 3 day class
going over the design goals of the engine, it's history, and all the
refinements that have been done to the Jabiru 2200 and 3300 since they were
released and why. They spent another couple of hours going over the various
failures that they have seen over the years and why they happened, including
passing around the actual failed parts for inspection. In nearly every
incident covered it was operator error that caused the failure. It was quite a
history lesson and a shame that all the naysayers here couldn't have listened
to the lecture and educate themselves.
As far as the refinements that have been done to the Jabiru line of
engines, the hydraulic lifters were developed to reduce maintenance, primarily
for flight schools who use aircraft with the Jabiru engine. IOW, eliminating
the need to adjust the valves every 50 hours as with the solid lifter
version. I seem to recall them saying that overall, parts were removed, not added
to achieve this enhancement. Not sure what you mean by cam followers.
They're in my engine and every other one of the half dozen or so engines I saw
disassembled during the Jabiru course. Perhaps the early Jabiru engines
didn't have cam followers?
Similarly, I'm not sure how you can look at the innards of a Rotax 912 and
the way the crank is supported, then compare it to a Jabiru and say the
Jabiru is "lightly built". Have you ever seen a 3300 with the case split?
There are seven (7) crank support bearings in the Jabiru, one on each end, and
one between each connecting rod. The Jabiru is built like a tank compared
to the 912/914, or more appropriately, built like a Lycoming, Franklin or
Continental. Compare that to the three crank support bearings in the Rotax
912/914, coupled to high compression pistons and an engine that isn't all
that well balanced and ????. This weak support of the crank is directly
related to the high number of crank and case failures that have happened with
the 912/914. Rotax also had a bad run of cranks out for a while about 10
years ago. One guy who used to keep a 914 powered Katana motorglider at my
field had one.
The crank/flywheel dowels were a response to reported failures in the
flywheel attachment bolts on a limited number of aircraft. To my knowledge, none
of the flywheel bolt failures caused any accidents or forced landings, but
rather were found during routine inspection. This flywheel bolt issue
later turned out to be limited to engines that had sustained unreported prop
strikes. I was told at the Jabiru seminar that there have been no reported
failures of the flywheel bolts on any engines except those that had sustained
prop strikes, but the dowel pins were a good idea, especially if you are
going to run a heavy, unapproved prop, like an MT. So, they were added to
new engines and to engines that are sent back to the factory for overhaul.
Makes perfect sense to me and certainly doesn't overly complicate the engine
at all.
The Jabiru 3300 is one of the simplest four stroke engines I've ever seen.
I've handled every part in a 3300 and assembled one piece by piece from
the case up. I don't know how you could make a four stroke engine any
simpler. Simple is a good thing when it comes to an aircraft engine, IMHO.
Everything about the 3300 is well thought out and made as simple as is humanly
possible. The machining is top notch. Both the 2200 and 3300 continue to be
refined to this day as the fleet hours increase and maintenance issues reveal
themselves, just like Rotax engines. The 912, by comparison, is off the
scale in terms of complexity, IMO. All that stuff is just more that can go
wrong.
>>>>>Many owners are afraid of the maze of coolant lines on a Rotax. But
your
car has many of them too, albeit better concealed from view. And yet
would one say car engines are unreliable ?<<<<<
Depends on the car manufacturer. A Ford, Toyota, or Honda? Very reliable.
A Fiat, Yugo, or GM? Not so much.
>>>>>What counts for an aero engines, is the thousands of operating hours
to
make it reliable, not this or that mechanical choice (as long as it is a
sound choice).<<<<<<
Yep, and the fleet hours of the Jabiru 2200/3300 continue to climb with
every passing day, but you must also realize that Rotax has a 10-12 year head
start on Jabiru. Give 'em some time. They're working as fast as they can to
replace Rotax as the engine of choice in sport aviation. There are now
several thousand of these engines flying world wide in a wide range of
aircraft, both certified and noncertified. Jabiru will continue to sell this fine
little engine in large numbers because it works well, it's simple, powerful
and the engine and the basic replaceable parts, as well as major engine
components, are considerably cheaper than Rotax engines and parts. This was
one of the design goals of Jabiru, build an engine with as many common parts
as possible to keep the initial purchase price and maintenance costs down.
I believe they have succeeded. Initially, Jabiru's original intent was to
only build engines for their own line of aircraft, but outside demand for
the engine became overwhelming and they have been selling engines outright
for use in non-Jabiru airframes.
>>>>Think of us poor pilots in densely populated Europe. We must overfly
thousands of people, and they don't like noise !
Rotax engines can be very quiet with their slow turning props.<<<<<
Yes, I've been to Europe many times and I'm aware of the restrictions
placed on you by your nanny state governments. My Jabiru 3300, at take off
power, was measured at 71 dB from 100 yards off the runway. My neighbor's
Husqvarna lawn mower measured minutes later at a distance of 230 yards was
measured at 89 dB. My Ximango 912S spinning a Hoffman prop was measured later
that same day using the same dB meter under nearly identical conditions at
take off power at 75 dB at 100 yards. I don't know what Jabiru's you are
listening to, perhaps one with straight pipes and no muffler? Mine is very
quiet, yet the noise it does make is a deep, throaty sound similar to a
Beechcraft. I much prefer a low, throaty sound to the high pitched Rotax whine.
Prop noise isn't a problem, either, when the engine is tuned for the airframe.
At take off load you should only see 2800-2900 RPM. When I hear an
airplane go over I can tell instantly from inside the hangar with the doors closed
if it has a Rotax or not. The Rotax whine is piercing to my ears.
Oh, and regarding radial engines, you know they aren't really a portable
oil leak, they just like to mark their territory.....
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - Flying
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Subject: | Re: Material for Instrument Panel |
Hi
Thanks for all the information regarding the instrument panel and brake
fluid. Not finally made my mind up which way to go yet but a least I am
better informed.
Regards
David Steade
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Subject: | Re: Europa-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 01/24/10 |
Time: 11:14:51 AM PST US
> From: "Creighton Smith" <crouton@well.com>
> Subject: Europa-List: Jabiru engines
>
>
> >>>>>One thing about Jabiru installation perplexes me: Every Jabiru
> installation I have looked at over the years has had presumed cooling
> issues addressed with little deflectors inside the cooling cowl which is
> part of the engine package.
> This is heartening since it shows they (Jabiru) have been paying
> attention. The perplexing thing is: why is there no provision for
> inter-cylinder baffling? <<<<<
>
Hello Creighton,
There is inter-cylinder baffling on mine, at least I think we're talking
about the same thing. Check the Jabiru factory website, or the Jabiru USA or
Jabiru Pacific for pictures and details. The so-called "gull wing"
deflectors that go in between the cylinder bores have been recommended to be
removed by the factory last spring, but they do still recommend baffle
deflectors above the cylinders. The arrangement that seems to work best on
airframes like the Europa or Lightning is baffles roughly 3/4" tall that are
installed internally in the head cooling duct from the inside wall, over the
top of the duct and down the outside to above the rocker arm area of the
heads. That prevents the air from blowing over the rocker arm area of the
head where it does little or nothing to cool the head, and instead forces
air through the cooling fins where it is needed to take heat away from the
heads. Mine has them on the left side, above and in between cylinder #2 and
#4 and also over cylinder #6, with the cylinder #6 baffle being slightly
taller and shaped more to conform to the profile of the cooling fin shape.
These balance the CHT temps very well between the cylinders. The baffling
needed on the right side on my engine (clys 1, 3, & 5) is much smaller and
more subtle because the right side runs a lot cooler due to the direction of
rotation of the prop. More air enters that side, and that side runs cooler.
These baffles are not installed by the factory because every engine
installation is different. What works on a Jabiru airframe doesn't
necessarily work on a Titan Tonado or Europa airframe. So, the factory
expects the owner to install the baffles and adjust them as needed. You also
have to get your carb jetted properly for the airframe and, along with it,
adjust the pitch or choose a prop with a pitch that properly loads the
engine to keep the EGT's in line. When you get the EGT's in line it helps a
great deal with the CHT's. The baffling does the rest.
In regard to the Rotec TBI, I tried to fit one in my Europa, but I couldn't
make it work because of a conflict with the engine mount and footwells in a
horizontal arrangement, and the distributors and throttle cables in a
vertical installation. Similar conflicts exist with the Lightning airframe.
Without a major redesign of the intake plenum on the 3300, something that is
beyond my machining skills, I don't see how you could make one work on a
Europa with the stock plenum without making the distribution tubing longer
and more complicated. I tried to talk the the Rotec guys into building a new
plenum for the 3300 that would incorporate the Rotec TBI in an updraft
arrangement. The Rotec folks clearly have the machining skills and other
knowledge that would be necessary to do it, but they are so busy building
radial engines they said they just don't have time. I do know of several
Rotec TBI's operating on Jabiru engines in other airframes, though, both on
the 2200 and the 3300. There are a few running Ellison TBI's, too, as well
as Aerocarbs. Don't look for Jabiru to switch to anything different from the
Bing, though. Their strongest desire seems to be to keep things as simple as
possible and for them, that means sticking with the Bing. I certainly would
love to have mixture control, though.
There is a way that you can lean the Bing carb, above and beyond what it
does itself. There's a little gizmo that is made by Green Sky Adventures in
Florida. This is a precision valve that allows you to adjust the air flowing
into the balance tube on the carb that normally goes between the upper side
of the diaphragm chamber and the airbox. By bleeding in ambient pressure
into the top side of the diaphragm on the Bing you prevent the needle from
rising just enough to lean the engine. I'm told by the folks at Jabiru USA
that you can achieve as much as a 1 gph reduction in fuel flow above 8000'
or so by using this valve arrangement. I haven't tried one, but I did notice
during the engine seminar that virtually every Lightning and Jabiru airframe
that was on the production line had it installed. There is also a version
that is designed to work on the Rotax 9XX series with twin carbs, as well as
most of the Rotax two bangers.
I talked to a company over in Greenville, South Carolina a while back that
makes custom direct injection systems for aircraft engines. They had never
done a Jabiru, but they were interested and said they could do it, but their
$4000+ price tag stopped me cold. There is ample room on the Jabiru head to
install direct injection.
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - Flying
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Jabiru engines |
Rotax extended TBO for the 912 series to 2000 h and 15 years. More than 30.000
built by now. No need to say more.
But I have to add, that I cannot say anything against the Jabiru.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283505#283505
Message 7
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Subject: | Prop-axis height: Jabiru vs Rotax |
Does the prop sit lower in the fuse on a Jab 3300 installation than on a
Rotax? (I suspect soafter a cursory look at the drawings)
If so, by how much?
Thx,
Pete
A239
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? |
Hi Kevin
" I have one, she does not fold away, and she looks
fantastic! But really, I thought of trying to install a slide out
holder like my Subaru has. Never did it though..."
Where
did you purchase from? By chance have a pic of install? If not where did
you mount it?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Prop-axis height: Jabiru vs Rotax |
On Jan 26, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Peter Zutrauen wrote:
> Does the prop sit lower in the fuse on a Jab 3300 installation than
> on a Rotax?
Peter,
I received this from John Wheeler sometime back:
> The thrust line on the XS runs parallel to the fuselage datum line,
> one and a half (1.5") inches above it.
Is not the fuselage datum line at the door sill? If you study the
attached photo of a Jab installation from Suncoast, it would appear
that the Jab thrust centerline is about the same.
Fred
Message 10
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Subject: | Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? |
Down Boy!
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us
Sent: 26 January 2010 18:29
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink
holder?
Hi Kevin
" I have one, she does not fold away, and she looks fantastic! But really,
I thought of trying to install a slide out holder like my Subaru has. Never
did it though..."
Where did you purchase from? By chance have a pic of install? If not where
did you mount it?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? |
The drink holder I speak of is Ann, my wife and she would rather that I
not say where she was purchased. No pictures either. And... oh
nevermind...
Europa XS Mono-Wheel
Inter-cooled Rotax 914
Airmaster Prop
do not archive
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 10:28 AM , rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:
Hi Kevin
" I have one, she does not fold away, and she looks fantastic! But
really, I thought of trying to install a slide out holder like my
Subaru has. Never did it though..."
Where did you purchase from? By chance have a pic of install? If not
where did you mount it?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink |
holder?
Hi Kevin
"The drink holder I speak of is Ann, my wife and she
would rather that I not say where she was purchased. No pictures
either. And... oh nevermind..."
Wife, figured
girlfriend/s!
Thinkin may layup a lightweight CF creation.
Ron
Parigoris
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