---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/26/10: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:35 AM - Re: Material for Instrument Panel (bmoorhouse) 2. 05:36 AM - Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? (Kevin Klinefelter) 3. 06:43 AM - Jabiru engines. (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 4. 07:26 AM - Re: Material for Instrument Panel (Steade) 5. 07:49 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 01/24/10 (John Lawton) 6. 08:59 AM - Re: Jabiru engines (Roland) 7. 09:40 AM - Prop-axis height: Jabiru vs Rotax (Peter Zutrauen) 8. 10:29 AM - Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 9. 10:45 AM - Re: Prop-axis height: Jabiru vs Rotax (Fred Klein) 10. 10:58 AM - Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? (Mike) 11. 12:14 PM - Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? (Cori Hayth) 12. 03:24 PM - Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:35:13 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Material for Instrument Panel From: "bmoorhouse" flying farmer wrote: > What about Carbon fiber sheeting. You will have a ready made finish if you like the carbon fiber look. > > Richard Wheelwright Mine is carbon fibre sheet - as a "sub panel" that holds all the instruments and can be removed without taking the whole panel assembly off. Looks very good with its almost holographic weave effect, is very light and very strong. Also have carbon fibre sheet on the panel cover between the seats (I do not have finger brakes). I would recommend it if you can get some with a good polished finish. -------- _______________ Barry Moorhouse G-JHYS Trigear XS Rotax 914 UL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283467#283467 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:18 AM PST US From: "Kevin Klinefelter" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? I have one, she does not fold away, and she looks fantastic! But really, I thought of trying to install a slide out holder like my Subaru has. Never did it though... Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us To: Europa Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 10:18 PM Subject: Europa-List: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? We are into our instrument panel mounting and modifying at the moment. Anyone install an easy to use for pilot on port side drink holder that perhaps folds away and looks not too cheezy? Any details would be appreciated. Thanking in advance. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:41 AM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Jabiru engines. >>>>You just don't purge anything when changing oil on a Rotax : drain the oil tank, put a new seal and filter, and pour fresh oil. We installed a quick drain valve so the total time for an oil change is about 10 minutes including removing and reinstalling the cowling.<<<< Hello Giles, It might behoove you to take a look at the Rotax Service Instruction on the 912 that came out last March (2009) regarding oil changes. Specifically, SI-912-10R3 dated March 19, 2009. This SI runs concurrent with SI 912-018 entitled "Purging of Lubrication System" In SI 912-018, it specifically describes how to purge the oil system when changing the oil in a 912/914 to remove old oil and then how to rebleed the system with new oil. Doing this procedures ensures that the journals, bearings, rocker arms, etc are all properly lubricated prior to start up after the oil change. SI 912-010 R3 reiterates this method because so many Rotax 912/914 owners have not been following the proper oil change procedure and bearing failures, among other things, have resulted. Kerry down at Lockwood in Florida told me that if you aren't doing this procedure "you are asking for trouble". There is a similar SI issued for the 914 with the same date. Some people refer to this procedure as "burping the engine" because of the noise it makes when you are purging. You can simply drain the oil from the tank, change the filter and refill with new oil, but you are leaving nearly a quart of old oil in the engine and lines if you do it that way. I'm not that familiar with the 912/914 configuration as it exists in the Europa, but that is nearly 1/3rd of the oil in my Ximango 912S oil system. Leaving 1/3rd of tht old oil in the lines and engine kind of defeats the purpose of doing an oil change, doesn't it? >>>>>Any serious engine manufacturer SHOULD issue dozens of SBs, SLs, etc...<<<<< Agreed. Rotax does do a fine job of documenting their failures and resulting maintenance procedures and engine enhancements. This is why I suggested to those who repeat the negative rumors about Jabiru engines to do some reading and understand the history of their Rotax engines. I remember quite well when the first 912's came out. They were much better boat anchors than airplane engines. Rotax had all sorts of problems with it, but it has been so long that many might not remember or be aware. My point was the 912/914 platform has it's own sorted history of failures and those failures continue to this day if you don't follow Rotax maintenance procedures to the letter. The way the Jabiru engine is spoken of here on this forum it's as if it is the only aircraft engine ever built that has had some growing pains after initial release. Many here seem to think those growing pains suffered in the early engines have not been corrected and as a result they are not reliable engines. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The Jabiru engine continues to be refined, just like the Rotax 912/914 and it has proven to be at least as reliable as the Rotax, if not more so because it is so simple, but, as with any aircraft engine you have to tune it for your airframe for best results. >>>>Lord Hives, manager of Rolls-Royce during the war said to Franck Whittle : "Give us your jet engine project, and we will soon design the simplicity out of it ";-) The early Jabiru were simple, but with time, they now have many many more parts : hydraulic lifters, cam follower, crankshaft dowels, etc...<<<<< The Jabiru USA folks spent about 2 hours the first day of the 3 day class going over the design goals of the engine, it's history, and all the refinements that have been done to the Jabiru 2200 and 3300 since they were released and why. They spent another couple of hours going over the various failures that they have seen over the years and why they happened, including passing around the actual failed parts for inspection. In nearly every incident covered it was operator error that caused the failure. It was quite a history lesson and a shame that all the naysayers here couldn't have listened to the lecture and educate themselves. As far as the refinements that have been done to the Jabiru line of engines, the hydraulic lifters were developed to reduce maintenance, primarily for flight schools who use aircraft with the Jabiru engine. IOW, eliminating the need to adjust the valves every 50 hours as with the solid lifter version. I seem to recall them saying that overall, parts were removed, not added to achieve this enhancement. Not sure what you mean by cam followers. They're in my engine and every other one of the half dozen or so engines I saw disassembled during the Jabiru course. Perhaps the early Jabiru engines didn't have cam followers? Similarly, I'm not sure how you can look at the innards of a Rotax 912 and the way the crank is supported, then compare it to a Jabiru and say the Jabiru is "lightly built". Have you ever seen a 3300 with the case split? There are seven (7) crank support bearings in the Jabiru, one on each end, and one between each connecting rod. The Jabiru is built like a tank compared to the 912/914, or more appropriately, built like a Lycoming, Franklin or Continental. Compare that to the three crank support bearings in the Rotax 912/914, coupled to high compression pistons and an engine that isn't all that well balanced and ????. This weak support of the crank is directly related to the high number of crank and case failures that have happened with the 912/914. Rotax also had a bad run of cranks out for a while about 10 years ago. One guy who used to keep a 914 powered Katana motorglider at my field had one. The crank/flywheel dowels were a response to reported failures in the flywheel attachment bolts on a limited number of aircraft. To my knowledge, none of the flywheel bolt failures caused any accidents or forced landings, but rather were found during routine inspection. This flywheel bolt issue later turned out to be limited to engines that had sustained unreported prop strikes. I was told at the Jabiru seminar that there have been no reported failures of the flywheel bolts on any engines except those that had sustained prop strikes, but the dowel pins were a good idea, especially if you are going to run a heavy, unapproved prop, like an MT. So, they were added to new engines and to engines that are sent back to the factory for overhaul. Makes perfect sense to me and certainly doesn't overly complicate the engine at all. The Jabiru 3300 is one of the simplest four stroke engines I've ever seen. I've handled every part in a 3300 and assembled one piece by piece from the case up. I don't know how you could make a four stroke engine any simpler. Simple is a good thing when it comes to an aircraft engine, IMHO. Everything about the 3300 is well thought out and made as simple as is humanly possible. The machining is top notch. Both the 2200 and 3300 continue to be refined to this day as the fleet hours increase and maintenance issues reveal themselves, just like Rotax engines. The 912, by comparison, is off the scale in terms of complexity, IMO. All that stuff is just more that can go wrong. >>>>>Many owners are afraid of the maze of coolant lines on a Rotax. But your car has many of them too, albeit better concealed from view. And yet would one say car engines are unreliable ?<<<<< Depends on the car manufacturer. A Ford, Toyota, or Honda? Very reliable. A Fiat, Yugo, or GM? Not so much. >>>>>What counts for an aero engines, is the thousands of operating hours to make it reliable, not this or that mechanical choice (as long as it is a sound choice).<<<<<< Yep, and the fleet hours of the Jabiru 2200/3300 continue to climb with every passing day, but you must also realize that Rotax has a 10-12 year head start on Jabiru. Give 'em some time. They're working as fast as they can to replace Rotax as the engine of choice in sport aviation. There are now several thousand of these engines flying world wide in a wide range of aircraft, both certified and noncertified. Jabiru will continue to sell this fine little engine in large numbers because it works well, it's simple, powerful and the engine and the basic replaceable parts, as well as major engine components, are considerably cheaper than Rotax engines and parts. This was one of the design goals of Jabiru, build an engine with as many common parts as possible to keep the initial purchase price and maintenance costs down. I believe they have succeeded. Initially, Jabiru's original intent was to only build engines for their own line of aircraft, but outside demand for the engine became overwhelming and they have been selling engines outright for use in non-Jabiru airframes. >>>>Think of us poor pilots in densely populated Europe. We must overfly thousands of people, and they don't like noise ! Rotax engines can be very quiet with their slow turning props.<<<<< Yes, I've been to Europe many times and I'm aware of the restrictions placed on you by your nanny state governments. My Jabiru 3300, at take off power, was measured at 71 dB from 100 yards off the runway. My neighbor's Husqvarna lawn mower measured minutes later at a distance of 230 yards was measured at 89 dB. My Ximango 912S spinning a Hoffman prop was measured later that same day using the same dB meter under nearly identical conditions at take off power at 75 dB at 100 yards. I don't know what Jabiru's you are listening to, perhaps one with straight pipes and no muffler? Mine is very quiet, yet the noise it does make is a deep, throaty sound similar to a Beechcraft. I much prefer a low, throaty sound to the high pitched Rotax whine. Prop noise isn't a problem, either, when the engine is tuned for the airframe. At take off load you should only see 2800-2900 RPM. When I hear an airplane go over I can tell instantly from inside the hangar with the doors closed if it has a Rotax or not. The Rotax whine is piercing to my ears. Oh, and regarding radial engines, you know they aren't really a portable oil leak, they just like to mark their territory..... Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:31 AM PST US From: "Steade" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Material for Instrument Panel Hi Thanks for all the information regarding the instrument panel and brake fluid. Not finally made my mind up which way to go yet but a least I am better informed. Regards David Steade ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:46 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 01/24/10 From: John Lawton Time: 11:14:51 AM PST US > From: "Creighton Smith" > Subject: Europa-List: Jabiru engines > > > >>>>>One thing about Jabiru installation perplexes me: Every Jabiru > installation I have looked at over the years has had presumed cooling > issues addressed with little deflectors inside the cooling cowl which is > part of the engine package. > This is heartening since it shows they (Jabiru) have been paying > attention. The perplexing thing is: why is there no provision for > inter-cylinder baffling? <<<<< > Hello Creighton, There is inter-cylinder baffling on mine, at least I think we're talking about the same thing. Check the Jabiru factory website, or the Jabiru USA or Jabiru Pacific for pictures and details. The so-called "gull wing" deflectors that go in between the cylinder bores have been recommended to be removed by the factory last spring, but they do still recommend baffle deflectors above the cylinders. The arrangement that seems to work best on airframes like the Europa or Lightning is baffles roughly 3/4" tall that are installed internally in the head cooling duct from the inside wall, over the top of the duct and down the outside to above the rocker arm area of the heads. That prevents the air from blowing over the rocker arm area of the head where it does little or nothing to cool the head, and instead forces air through the cooling fins where it is needed to take heat away from the heads. Mine has them on the left side, above and in between cylinder #2 and #4 and also over cylinder #6, with the cylinder #6 baffle being slightly taller and shaped more to conform to the profile of the cooling fin shape. These balance the CHT temps very well between the cylinders. The baffling needed on the right side on my engine (clys 1, 3, & 5) is much smaller and more subtle because the right side runs a lot cooler due to the direction of rotation of the prop. More air enters that side, and that side runs cooler. These baffles are not installed by the factory because every engine installation is different. What works on a Jabiru airframe doesn't necessarily work on a Titan Tonado or Europa airframe. So, the factory expects the owner to install the baffles and adjust them as needed. You also have to get your carb jetted properly for the airframe and, along with it, adjust the pitch or choose a prop with a pitch that properly loads the engine to keep the EGT's in line. When you get the EGT's in line it helps a great deal with the CHT's. The baffling does the rest. In regard to the Rotec TBI, I tried to fit one in my Europa, but I couldn't make it work because of a conflict with the engine mount and footwells in a horizontal arrangement, and the distributors and throttle cables in a vertical installation. Similar conflicts exist with the Lightning airframe. Without a major redesign of the intake plenum on the 3300, something that is beyond my machining skills, I don't see how you could make one work on a Europa with the stock plenum without making the distribution tubing longer and more complicated. I tried to talk the the Rotec guys into building a new plenum for the 3300 that would incorporate the Rotec TBI in an updraft arrangement. The Rotec folks clearly have the machining skills and other knowledge that would be necessary to do it, but they are so busy building radial engines they said they just don't have time. I do know of several Rotec TBI's operating on Jabiru engines in other airframes, though, both on the 2200 and the 3300. There are a few running Ellison TBI's, too, as well as Aerocarbs. Don't look for Jabiru to switch to anything different from the Bing, though. Their strongest desire seems to be to keep things as simple as possible and for them, that means sticking with the Bing. I certainly would love to have mixture control, though. There is a way that you can lean the Bing carb, above and beyond what it does itself. There's a little gizmo that is made by Green Sky Adventures in Florida. This is a precision valve that allows you to adjust the air flowing into the balance tube on the carb that normally goes between the upper side of the diaphragm chamber and the airbox. By bleeding in ambient pressure into the top side of the diaphragm on the Bing you prevent the needle from rising just enough to lean the engine. I'm told by the folks at Jabiru USA that you can achieve as much as a 1 gph reduction in fuel flow above 8000' or so by using this valve arrangement. I haven't tried one, but I did notice during the engine seminar that virtually every Lightning and Jabiru airframe that was on the production line had it installed. There is also a version that is designed to work on the Rotax 9XX series with twin carbs, as well as most of the Rotax two bangers. I talked to a company over in Greenville, South Carolina a while back that makes custom direct injection systems for aircraft engines. They had never done a Jabiru, but they were interested and said they could do it, but their $4000+ price tag stopped me cold. There is ample room on the Jabiru head to install direct injection. Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:59:31 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Jabiru engines From: "Roland" Rotax extended TBO for the 912 series to 2000 h and 15 years. More than 30.000 built by now. No need to say more. But I have to add, that I cannot say anything against the Jabiru. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283505#283505 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:40:17 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Prop-axis height: Jabiru vs Rotax From: Peter Zutrauen Does the prop sit lower in the fuse on a Jab 3300 installation than on a Rotax? (I suspect soafter a cursory look at the drawings) If so, by how much? Thx, Pete A239 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:29:56 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Kevin " I have one, she does not fold away, and she looks fantastic! But really, I thought of trying to install a slide out holder like my Subaru has. Never did it though..." Where did you purchase from? By chance have a pic of install? If not where did you mount it? Thx. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:45:33 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Prop-axis height: Jabiru vs Rotax On Jan 26, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Peter Zutrauen wrote: > Does the prop sit lower in the fuse on a Jab 3300 installation than > on a Rotax? Peter, I received this from John Wheeler sometime back: > The thrust line on the XS runs parallel to the fuselage datum line, > one and a half (1.5") inches above it. Is not the fuselage datum line at the door sill? If you study the attached photo of a Jab installation from Suncoast, it would appear that the Jab thrust centerline is about the same. Fred ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:58:57 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? Down Boy! From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Sent: 26 January 2010 18:29 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? Hi Kevin " I have one, she does not fold away, and she looks fantastic! But really, I thought of trying to install a slide out holder like my Subaru has. Never did it though..." Where did you purchase from? By chance have a pic of install? If not where did you mount it? Thx. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:00 PM PST US From: Cori Hayth Subject: Re: Europa-List: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? The drink holder I speak of is Ann, my wife and she would rather that I not say where she was purchased. No pictures either. And... oh nevermind... Europa XS Mono-Wheel Inter-cooled Rotax 914 Airmaster Prop do not archive On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 10:28 AM , rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: Hi Kevin " I have one, she does not fold away, and she looks fantastic! But really, I thought of trying to install a slide out holder like my Subaru has. Never did it though..." Where did you purchase from? By chance have a pic of install? If not where did you mount it? Thx. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Kevin "The drink holder I speak of is Ann, my wife and she would rather that I not say where she was purchased. No pictures either. And... oh nevermind..." Wife, figured girlfriend/s! Thinkin may layup a lightweight CF creation. 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