---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/27/10: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:31 AM - Re: Finger Brakes (craig bastin) 2. 07:26 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 01/26/10 (John Lawton) 3. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 01/26/10 (Cori Hayth) 4. 10:51 AM - Re: Jabiru (Creighton Smith) 5. 12:59 PM - Europa List. (Mike Parkin) 6. 01:01 PM - Re: Jabiru engines. (Gilles Thesee) 7. 02:42 PM - Europa powerplants (Fred Klein) 8. 03:14 PM - MG folding prop (Peter Zutrauen) 9. 03:26 PM - Re: Europa powerplants (Peter Zutrauen) 10. 04:40 PM - Rotax v Jabiru v New Dunlop Engine (David Joyce) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:31:01 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Finger Brakes Re: Europa-List: Finger Brakesthanks for that Gerry Do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:12 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 01/26/10 From: John Lawton >>>>>>Rotax extended TBO for the 912 series to 2000 h and 15 years. <<<<<< Hey Roland, Do you have a link for that? Everything I've seen on the Rotax owners group indicates 1500 hour TBO on the 912 that has been upped from 1200 hours. Is this something recent? The Jabiru 3300 has a 2000 hour on the solid lifter version for TBO, (not sure about the hydraulic lifter version) but it is recommended that you top the engine (overhaul the heads) at 1000 hours. The cost to fully overhaul a 3300 was quoted to me last November at around $6000, plus shipping. What is the cost to overhaul a Rotax 912? I was quoted "half the price of a new engine" for a non-certified 912 overhaul by the Rotax folks at Sun-n-Fun a few years ago. I'm scared to ask for my certified 912S. The reduction gear will never make it to 2000 hours, though. 600-700 hour TBO seems more likely. In fact, Lockwood recommends overhauling the reduction gear at 500 hours as of the last time I talked to them, rather than letting if fail, then overhauling it. Apparently, it's cheaper in the long run to have the reduction gear overhauled earlier, as opposed to waiting until you have problems with it. >>>>>More than 30.000 built by now. No need to say more.<<<<< Ford built over 84,000 Edsels between 1958 and 1960, but that didn't make them anymore reliable. 50 years later the name "Edsel" is still synonymous with failure. Sort of like how "Rotax and "expensive" have become synonymous..... Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:26 AM PST US From: Cori Hayth Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 01/26/10 rotax-owner.com has a link to the service bulletin extending the tbo The rotax gear box needs proper maintenance (surprise!) 100 hr friction tourque test (easy) Smooth running engine extends the life of the Gear Box Keep prop balanced Keep carbs balanced Avoid low idle RPM ( only idle below 1800 RPM when you really must) Avoid 100LL (lead build-up in gear box) Kevin Europa XS Mono-Wheel Inter-cooled Rotax 914 Airmaster Prop On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 7:24 AM , John Lawton wrote: >>>>>> Rotax extended TBO for the 912 series to 2000 h and 15 years. >>>>>> <<<<<< Hey Roland, Do you have a link for that? Everything I've seen on the Rotax owners group indicates 1500 hour TBO on the 912 that has been upped from 1200 hours. Is this something recent? The Jabiru 3300 has a 2000 hour on the solid lifter version for TBO, (not sure about the hydraulic lifter version) but it is recommended that you top the engine (overhaul the heads) at 1000 hours. The cost to fully overhaul a 3300 was quoted to me last November at around $6000, plus shipping. What is the cost to overhaul a Rotax 912? I was quoted "half the price of a new engine" for a non-certified 912 overhaul by the Rotax folks at Sun-n-Fun a few years ago. I'm scared to ask for my certified 912S. The reduction gear will never make it to 2000 hours, though. 600-700 hour TBO seems more likely. In fact, Lockwood recommends overhauling the reduction gear at 500 hours as of the last time I talked to them, rather than letting if fail, then overhauling it. Apparently, it's cheaper in the long run to have the reduction gear overhauled earlier, as opposed to waiting until you have problems with it. >>>>> More than 30.000 built by now. No need to say more.<<<<< Ford built over 84,000 Edsels between 1958 and 1960, but that didn't make them anymore reliable. 50 years later the name "Edsel" is still synonymous with failure. Sort of like how "Rotax and "expensive" have become synonymous..... Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:34 AM PST US From: "Creighton Smith" Subject: Europa-List: Re: Jabiru John (Lawton) Thanks for the info on your installation. One of my major disappointments of the '09 Rough River drive-in was your absence. I was really looking forward to inspecting a successful Jabiru installation. Of course we missed all the other Europii just as poignantly. Re: EFI You might look at Simple Digital Systems at and Jason Parker at I have no interest beyond intellectual curiosity in these (Jason sells a plug&play Rotax SDS system) and in the fact that I bought a straight EFI 912 from Jason. SDS (I just looked it up) has weldable injector bosses for Jabiru now, so there is some interest. Next year at Rough River, Creighton Smith A036 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:49 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Europa-List: Europa List. Can someone help, I appear to have inadvertently signed on to the 'Jabiru Appreciation Society List'. It is becoming tiresome.... Regards, Mike I Love my Rotax. Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:01:57 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: Jabiru engines. Hi John, > It might behoove you to take a look at the Rotax Service Instruction > on the 912 that came out last March (2009) regarding oil changes. > Specifically, SI-912-10R3 dated March 19, 2009. This SI runs > concurrent with SI 912-018 entitled "Purging of Lubrication System" In > SI 912-018, it specifically describes how to purge the oil system when > changing the oil in a 912/914 to remove old oil and then how to > rebleed the system with new oil. Doing this procedures ensures that > the journals, bearings, rocker arms, etc are all properly lubricated > prior to start up after the oil change. SI 912-010 R3 reiterates this > method because so many Rotax 912/914 owners have not been following > the proper oil change procedure and bearing failures, among other > things, have resulted. Kerry down at Lockwood in Florida told me that > if you aren't doing this procedure "you are asking for > trouble". There is a similar SI issued for the 914 with the same > date. Some people refer to this procedure as "burping the engine" > because of the noise it makes when you are purging. There is some confusion, here. "Burping" the engine is turning it by hand to ensure all oil is back into the tank before checking the oil level. I'm used to doing that -albeit for other reasons- on any engine that has not run for some period of time. Purging the circuit is something else : it is what is called "preoiling" by some other manufacturers. One should do that on ANY engine after draining the internal oil circuit or reassembly. The hydraulic lifters are not a panacea, and they are very susceptible to air pockets on start. The Jabiru lifters are no exception. I'll suggest you preoil -or purge- your oil circuit any time you remove significant parts of your engine, whatever the brand. > You can simply drain the oil from the tank, change the filter and > refill with new oil, but you are leaving nearly a quart of old oil in > the engine and lines if you do it that way. I'm not that familiar with > the 912/914 configuration as it exists in the Europa, but that is > nearly 1/3rd of the oil in my Ximango 912S oil system. Leaving 1/3rd > of tht old oil in the lines and engine kind of defeats the purpose of > doing an oil change, doesn't it? Every owner is entitled to do something else than what the SBs, SIs and manuals say if he wants so. But I would suggest you just operate the engine as per the book unless you have access to a considerable engine knowledge based on hands-on experience and thorough measurements. As for myself, I do run and maintain Rotax engines per the manuals and manufacturer's instructions with very good results. > > >>>>>Any serious engine manufacturer SHOULD issue dozens of SBs, SLs, > etc...<<<<< > > The Jabiru engine continues to be refined, just like the Rotax 912/914 > and it has proven to be at least as reliable as the Rotax, if not more > so because it is so simple, but, as with any aircraft engine you have > to tune it for your airframe for best results. There are too few Jabiru engines in my country as compared to Rotax to support any valid comparison. > The Jabiru is built like a tank compared to the 912/914 That's your opinion, sir, and you are entitled to it. > , or more appropriately, built like a Lycoming, Franklin or > Continental. Compare that to the three crank support bearings in the > Rotax 912/914, coupled to high compression pistons and an engine that > isn't all that well balanced and ????. This weak support of the > crank is directly related to the high number of crank and > case failures that have happened with the 912/914. Rotax also had a > bad run of cranks out for a while about 10 years ago. One guy who used > to keep a 914 powered Katana motorglider at my field had one. That's one failure, sir. The spate of broken crankshafts you are referring to is unheard of in my area. I won't enter any Rotax vs Jabiru dispute based on "crankshaft better support" or "built like a tank" arguments, because what makes engines last is engineering, not opinions. What counts is you're happy with your engine. As for myself, I always do everything I can to learn more on any engine before expressing an opinion. Especially when a "high number ...of failures" is referred to. Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:42:52 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Europa-List: Europa powerplants All, I for one am always interested to read what posters have to say about various engines powering our (hopefully) ever-growing fleet of Europas. I'm particularly interested in what John Lawton has to say. As an owner of aircraft powered both by the Rotax and Jabiru, his perspective is unique and as a consequence, I believe I can trust that what he has to say is not colored by his personal investment in one or the other. Additionally, its my opinion that the Europa airframe benefits from being known as an aircraft which can be flown successfully with various powerplants, the choice having been made for any number of reasons. Since I am in the process of fitting my mono with a derivative of the Subaru EA81, a 140 hp MPEFIed engine made by RAM Performance, I also support the notion that this forum not be restricted to discussions of Rotax-powered Europas, and hope that other listers can resist any tendency they might have towards feeling the need to defend their own engine selection and operational experience when alternatives are presented. I see nothing to be gained by thinking of this as a zero- sum game. Speaking only for myself, I certainly enjoy participation in the extraordinary realm of experimental aviation. Fred A194 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:14:44 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: MG folding prop From: Peter Zutrauen The Carat has a neat idea for a prop for the MG wings - instead of a complex and heavy electrical prop (with all the failure modes that presents), it has a simple spring-loaded forward folding prop. The only downside is you can't wind-mill start, but that seems a small price to pay for the weight and simplicity. Short of throwing a blade, the only real failure mode would be prop open - the ideal default. http://technoflug.de/referenzen.htm (the Carat with prop folded is pictured lower right) I wonder if they are going to sell it outside the Carat product. Cheers, Pete A239 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:26:10 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa powerplants From: Peter Zutrauen Fred, I echo your sentiments. As one still with a pile of parts, I am still looking for the right powerplant. Thanks to all those that contributed constructively to the Jabiru/Rotax thread, and please keep the information flowing - It can only benefit the builder community. It is clear which posters have financial interests at stake - obviously tainting their opinions/statements. I'd like to see the junker-based-design Gemini become a reality! Although it appears to be yet another engine mfg. victim of underfunding. Hopefully they can bounce back and give us a Jet-A choice for travel to those remote airstrips (especially in the Canadian North), after it's well proven of course. Cheers, Pete A239 On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 5:38 PM, Fred Klein wrote: > > All, > > I for one am always interested to read what posters have to say about > various engines powering our (hopefully) ever-growing fleet of Europas. > > I'm particularly interested in what John Lawton has to say. As an owner of > aircraft powered both by the Rotax and Jabiru, his perspective is unique and > as a consequence, I believe I can trust that what he has to say is not > colored by his personal investment in one or the other. Additionally, its my > opinion that the Europa airframe benefits from being known as an aircraft > which can be flown successfully with various powerplants, the choice having > been made for any number of reasons. > > Since I am in the process of fitting my mono with a derivative of the > Subaru EA81, a 140 hp MPEFIed engine made by RAM Performance, I also support > the notion that this forum not be restricted to discussions of Rotax-powered > Europas, and hope that other listers can resist any tendency they might have > towards feeling the need to defend their own engine selection and > operational experience when alternatives are presented. I see nothing to be > gained by thinking of this as a zero-sum game. > > Speaking only for myself, I certainly enjoy participation in the > extraordinary realm of experimental aviation. > > Fred > A194 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:54 PM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Europa-List: Rotax v Jabiru v New Dunlop Engine I suppose it's time to come clean, I have for the last several months been working on a new power plant for my aircraft, it is lighter, more fuel efficient and it knocks spots of both the Aussie and Austrian alternatives ;-) Its manufactured by "Dunlop" has been around for over 100 years (before Wilbur and Orville) is very low maintenance, has seen no AD's for years (apart from a colour change, which an LAA mod is being applied for), it's totally reliable, although does give repetitive strain injury on priming for a long flight, well I mean winding actually. And you don't have to pre flight gurgle (you do have to perform a twang test though). Has a limitless supply without a waiting list, in fact the Post Office has lots, usually left on my drive! LONG LIVE THE RUBBER BAND, it's always been the best power plant to my mind, it was in fact the power source of my very first aeroplane. OBTW very well said Mike we are supposed to be fellow aviators! oh and come to think of it my dads bigger than your dad! Sent to you from David Joyce "The other one" G-BXGG www.eastmidsspas.com Do not archive. From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin Sent: 27 January 2010 20:32 Subject: Europa-List: Europa List. Can someone help, I appear to have inadvertently signed on to the 'Jabiru Appreciation Society List'. It is becoming tiresome.... Regards, Mike I Love my Rotax. 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