Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:08 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 (John Lawton)
2. 09:09 AM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 (Christoph Both)
3. 10:25 AM - Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? (Raimo Toivio)
4. 10:55 AM - Re: MG folding prop (rampil)
5. 11:00 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 (rampil)
6. 11:23 AM - Re: Re: MG folding prop (Terry Seaver (terrys))
7. 11:24 AM - Re: Re: MG folding prop (Peter Zutrauen)
8. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 (Raimo Toivio)
9. 12:19 PM - Friday DOTH Sherburn (Richard Iddon)
10. 01:24 PM - Test (William McClellan)
11. 03:36 PM - Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
12. 05:24 PM - Re: MG folding prop (rampil)
13. 10:35 PM - Re: Re: MG folding prop (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
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Subject: | Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 |
>
> >>>>>>OBTW very well said Mike we are supposed to be fellow
> aviators!<<<<<<<
>
Hey David,
What you said here is the very crux of why I responded so forcefully to
ongoing, seemingly never ending, unfounded comments about Jabiru
<<reliability>> in the first place. Mike's comment echos my own frustration.
Those of you who responded to my comments about Rotax did so exactly as I
expected you would. You took the bait, hook, line and sinker.
With the recent series of responses to my commentary regarding Rotax vs.
Jabiru it is patently obvious that the Rotax owners here who have chimed in
don't appreciate it one bit when I exaggerate failures that have occurred
with your Rotax engine. Why then is it acceptable behavior for some here to
repeatedly speak disparagingly of the Jabiru, more often than not with no
direct experience with the engine? Are we Jabiru owners supposed to just sit
here like potted plants and take it? Many here seem to feel unrestrained to
criticize my Jabiru, despite the fact that they addmittedly have no
practical experience with Jabiru engines. Doesn't it make more sense to
educate yourself, rather than perpetuate exaggerated rumors?
Giles, Mike, and others, understand that I intentionally exaggerated my
comments about Rotax engine reliability, knowing full well that my comments
would tweek someone into chiming in. Turns out my comments tweeked several
folks, exactly as they were intended to do. To each of you who took the
bait, I thank you kindly for brilliantly illustrating the very essence of my
point. In the southern USA, we call that "hit dog hollers". To quote a more
common euphemism, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
We are indeed supposed to be fellow aviators here. This is why I find the
perpetual unfounded negative commentary about Jabiru engine <<reliability>>
so distasteful. We've all chosen to build and fly the Europa for our own
reasons. Likewise, we've also each chosen an engine to power our Europas
for our own reasons. We all should be encouraging each other and helping
each other where we can, rather than besmirching the engine of choices of
those of us that have decided to go with something OTR (other than Rotax)
with little or no basis in fact. Isn't the purpose of this forum to share
information, discuss issues and help each other? My own motivation to
participate in this forum certainly is founded in this concept.
For whatever reason, Jabiru seems to be the forum whippin' boy and it is
long past time for it to stop. I and others who have decided to go with the
Jabiru don't appreciate the exaggerated disparaging comments about our
Jabiru engines any more than those of you who responded to my exaggerated
disparaging comments about Rotax engines do. As I said initially, if you
have specific issues you would like to discuss regarding the Jabiru 3300 and
the Europa, I'm happy to oblige. The Jabiru 3300 is indeed a fine little
engine, well suited for use in the Europa. Is it perfect? No, but neither is
the Rotax 9XX. I have nothing to hide. I'm happy to share the knowledge I've
gained over the past four years of actual, hands on experience with this
engine. I'm sure the other Europa/Jabiru owners who read and participate in
this forum are likewise happy to share their own experiences. If you have a
question, by all means, ask! In any event, if you have no experience with
Jabiru engines you would be far better off to keep your unfounded negative
commentary and rumor mongering to yourself, rather than opening your mouth
and removing all doubt. The Rotax owners here who chimed in and responded to
my comments clearly expect me to govern myself in regard to my commentary
about your Rotax engine, keeping the commentary truthful and above board..
All I am asking is that you do the same when it comes to my Jabiru 3300.
I will now climb down off my soap box. Mission accomplished. (with a little
help from my friends)
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - Flying
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Subject: | Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 |
What a waste of time. Same for discussing if Apple is better than
Microsoft.
Much better to discuss which tool is best for the job. Let's stop
comparing Apples to Oranges. Or Toyotas to GM.
Christoph Both
#223
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Lawton
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 12:05 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10
>>>>>>OBTW very well said Mike we are supposed to be fellow
aviators!<<<<<<<
Hey David,
What you said here is the very crux of why I responded so forcefully to
ongoing, seemingly never ending, unfounded comments about Jabiru
<<reliability>> in the first place. Mike's comment echos my own
frustration. Those of you who responded to my comments about Rotax did
so exactly as I expected you would. You took the bait, hook, line and
sinker.
With the recent series of responses to my commentary regarding Rotax
vs. Jabiru it is patently obvious that the Rotax owners here who have
chimed in don't appreciate it one bit when I exaggerate failures that
have occurred with your Rotax engine. Why then is it acceptable behavior
for some here to repeatedly speak disparagingly of the Jabiru, more
often than not with no direct experience with the engine? Are we Jabiru
owners supposed to just sit here like potted plants and take it? Many
here seem to feel unrestrained to criticize my Jabiru, despite the fact
that they addmittedly have no practical experience with Jabiru engines.
Doesn't it make more sense to educate yourself, rather than perpetuate
exaggerated rumors?
Giles, Mike, and others, understand that I intentionally exaggerated my
comments about Rotax engine reliability, knowing full well that my
comments would tweek someone into chiming in. Turns out my comments
tweeked several folks, exactly as they were intended to do. To each of
you who took the bait, I thank you kindly for brilliantly illustrating
the very essence of my point. In the southern USA, we call that "hit dog
hollers". To quote a more common euphemism, what's good for the goose is
good for the gander.
We are indeed supposed to be fellow aviators here. This is why I find
the perpetual unfounded negative commentary about Jabiru engine
<<reliability>> so distasteful. We've all chosen to build and fly the
Europa for our own reasons. Likewise, we've also each chosen an engine
to power our Europas for our own reasons. We all should be encouraging
each other and helping each other where we can, rather than besmirching
the engine of choices of those of us that have decided to go with
something OTR (other than Rotax) with little or no basis in fact. Isn't
the purpose of this forum to share information, discuss issues and help
each other? My own motivation to participate in this forum certainly is
founded in this concept.
For whatever reason, Jabiru seems to be the forum whippin' boy and it is
long past time for it to stop. I and others who have decided to go with
the Jabiru don't appreciate the exaggerated disparaging comments about
our Jabiru engines any more than those of you who responded to my
exaggerated disparaging comments about Rotax engines do. As I said
initially, if you have specific issues you would like to discuss
regarding the Jabiru 3300 and the Europa, I'm happy to oblige. The
Jabiru 3300 is indeed a fine little engine, well suited for use in the
Europa. Is it perfect? No, but neither is the Rotax 9XX. I have nothing
to hide. I'm happy to share the knowledge I've gained over the past four
years of actual, hands on experience with this engine. I'm sure the
other Europa/Jabiru owners who read and participate in this forum are
likewise happy to share their own experiences. If you have a question,
by all means, ask! In any event, if you have no experience with Jabiru
engines you would be far better off to keep your unfounded negative
commentary and rumor mongering to yourself, rather than opening your
mouth and removing all doubt. The Rotax owners here who chimed in and
responded to my comments clearly expect me to govern myself in regard to
my commentary about your Rotax engine, keeping the commentary truthful
and above board.. All I am asking is that you do the same when it comes
to my Jabiru 3300.
I will now climb down off my soap box. Mission accomplished. (with a
little help from my friends)
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - Flying
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink |
holder?
Hi Ron
May I introduce my drink holder?
Before opening attachment please read this:
- she is normally located around P2
- I can move her easily because she is light weight
- she is safe (no hard particles) and easily removable if necessary
- she is quite soft and her skin is real natural leather (quite dark)
- she is a good soft drink holder but she can do other things also like
taking care of my map or so
- she is a superb beer holder also (but one by one only and never when
airborne!)
- some times I use her as a litter box (but later I usually repent
strongly!)
- I met her years ago
- she never groans and would like to be always in the cockpit
- she will be absolutely be my one, only and last drink holder (in the
Europa=B4s cockpit) I ever need
- if I will ever loose her it is not possible to find absolutely
similar, only cheap copies or so
- If I protrude my finger or even two of them into her, she feels good
inside and the innner surface is like satin made (in fact silk) or even
better may I say
- she is always ready for my ideas, thoughts and dreams
- my wife accepts her (as long as she will stay there)
- very few but some of my friends may use her also (under my supervision
only)
Raimo
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417
The Experimental of The Year 2007 in Finland
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
www.rwm.fi
----- Original Message -----
From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us
To: Europa
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 1:22 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot
drink holder?
Hi Kevin
"The drink holder I speak of is Ann, my wife and she would rather that
I not say where she was purchased. No pictures either. And... oh
nevermind..."
Wife, figured girlfriend/s!
Thinkin may layup a lightweight CF creation.
Ron Parigoris
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Subject: | Re: MG folding prop |
Hi Peter,
I am not sure what your criteria are for "heavy and complex".
To me, compared with certified hydraulic prop controllers are not on
both heavier and more complex but also more "stupid".
BTW: It is not possible to air-start a 912S in any case.
Cheers,
Ira
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283810#283810
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Subject: | Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 |
and while we are at it (I mean the Europa list topics),
please let us stop copying into replies the well written but copious
comments from Mike. I don't need to reread then 10 or 15 times.
Ira
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283811#283811
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Subject: | Re: MG folding prop |
Hi Ira,
I had also heard it was not possible to air-start a 912S, but it can be
done. We have done it with the Whirlwind prop and with the Airmaster,
both at about 110 knots. We were concerned about it in motor-glider
mode, both when it would stop windmilling after shut down (between 50-60
knots), and if we could do an air start if our battery went dead while
soaring with the engine off. The speeds worked out just right for our
needs.
Regards,
Terry
A135 / N135TD
XS with 912S, Airmaster prop, long and short wings.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rampil
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 10:54 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: MG folding prop
Hi Peter,
I am not sure what your criteria are for "heavy and complex".
To me, compared with certified hydraulic prop controllers are not on
both heavier and more complex but also more "stupid".
BTW: It is not possible to air-start a 912S in any case.
Cheers,
Ira
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283810#283810
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Subject: | Re: MG folding prop |
Hi Ira,
Maybe not the 912S, but the 914 can air-start (as demonstrated to me by
John in Lakeland a few years back).
I guess I should have said 'heavier' instead of heavy.
I consider any prop system which has multiple possible failure modes (other
than the obvious throwing of a blade) which can result in loss of thrust (or
reverse thrust) to be 'complex'. Personal opinion only, FWIW, YMMV, etc.
etc.
If I could get beyond the lack of a streamlined spinner (prop folded out),
the passive, forward folding prop seems to be an eloquent engineering
solution for the long wings.... to me at least.
Cheers,
Pete
A239
On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 1:54 PM, rampil <ira.rampil@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Peter,
>
> I am not sure what your criteria are for "heavy and complex".
>
> To me, compared with certified hydraulic prop controllers are not on
> both heavier and more complex but also more "stupid".
>
> BTW: It is not possible to air-start a 912S in any case.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ira
>
> --------
> Ira N224XS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283810#283810
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 |
Christoph,
that is a waste time of course but it is fun to "fight". Also for some
readers /followers.
It is always possible some one can find a hidden secret from these
debats.
R&D centers are monitoring this kind of lists also and they can find
ideas to make things better.
Jabiru or Rotax no matter but I am happy I have not Lycoming (320 "H"
engine) any more.
Raimo
ex Cessna-owner
----- Original Message -----
From: Christoph Both
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 7:08 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10
What a waste of time. Same for discussing if Apple is better than
Microsoft.
Much better to discuss which tool is best for the job. Let's stop
comparing Apples to Oranges. Or Toyotas to GM.
Christoph Both
#223
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Lawton
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 12:05 PM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10
>>>>>>OBTW very well said Mike we are supposed to be fellow
aviators!<<<<<<<
Hey David,
What you said here is the very crux of why I responded so forcefully
to ongoing, seemingly never ending, unfounded comments about Jabiru
<<reliability>> in the first place. Mike's comment echos my own
frustration. Those of you who responded to my comments about Rotax did
so exactly as I expected you would. You took the bait, hook, line and
sinker.
With the recent series of responses to my commentary regarding Rotax
vs. Jabiru it is patently obvious that the Rotax owners here who have
chimed in don't appreciate it one bit when I exaggerate failures that
have occurred with your Rotax engine. Why then is it acceptable behavior
for some here to repeatedly speak disparagingly of the Jabiru, more
often than not with no direct experience with the engine? Are we Jabiru
owners supposed to just sit here like potted plants and take it? Many
here seem to feel unrestrained to criticize my Jabiru, despite the fact
that they addmittedly have no practical experience with Jabiru engines.
Doesn't it make more sense to educate yourself, rather than perpetuate
exaggerated rumors?
Giles, Mike, and others, understand that I intentionally exaggerated
my comments about Rotax engine reliability, knowing full well that my
comments would tweek someone into chiming in. Turns out my comments
tweeked several folks, exactly as they were intended to do. To each of
you who took the bait, I thank you kindly for brilliantly illustrating
the very essence of my point. In the southern USA, we call that "hit dog
hollers". To quote a more common euphemism, what's good for the goose is
good for the gander.
We are indeed supposed to be fellow aviators here. This is why I find
the perpetual unfounded negative commentary about Jabiru engine
<<reliability>> so distasteful. We've all chosen to build and fly the
Europa for our own reasons. Likewise, we've also each chosen an engine
to power our Europas for our own reasons. We all should be encouraging
each other and helping each other where we can, rather than besmirching
the engine of choices of those of us that have decided to go with
something OTR (other than Rotax) with little or no basis in fact. Isn't
the purpose of this forum to share information, discuss issues and help
each other? My own motivation to participate in this forum certainly is
founded in this concept.
For whatever reason, Jabiru seems to be the forum whippin' boy and it
is long past time for it to stop. I and others who have decided to go
with the Jabiru don't appreciate the exaggerated disparaging comments
about our Jabiru engines any more than those of you who responded to my
exaggerated disparaging comments about Rotax engines do. As I said
initially, if you have specific issues you would like to discuss
regarding the Jabiru 3300 and the Europa, I'm happy to oblige. The
Jabiru 3300 is indeed a fine little engine, well suited for use in the
Europa. Is it perfect? No, but neither is the Rotax 9XX. I have nothing
to hide. I'm happy to share the knowledge I've gained over the past four
years of actual, hands on experience with this engine. I'm sure the
other Europa/Jabiru owners who read and participate in this forum are
likewise happy to share their own experiences. If you have a question,
by all means, ask! In any event, if you have no experience with Jabiru
engines you would be far better off to keep your unfounded negative
commentary and rumor mongering to yourself, rather than opening your
mouth and removing all doubt. The Rotax owners here who chimed in and
responded to my comments clearly expect me to govern myself in regard to
my commentary about your Rotax engine, keeping the commentary truthful
and above board.. All I am asking is that you do the same when it comes
to my Jabiru 3300.
I will now climb down off my soap box. Mission accomplished. (with a
little help from my friends)
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - Flying
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Subject: | Friday DOTH Sherburn |
Hi all. The weather looks like clearing up tomorrow morning, in the
north at
least, so I am proposing to head for Sherburn for lunch. Would be
pleased to
see any other Europa flyers (Rotax or Jabiru powered most welcome).
Richard Iddon G-RIXS
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do not archive
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Subject: | Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink |
holder?
Hi Raimo
Thanks for sharing your holder and description! Very
good.
Ron Parigoris
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Subject: | Re: MG folding prop |
Hi Peter,
The 914 is a different kettle of fish when it comes to airstart because it
is a low compression engine (8.5:1 if I recall correctly) versus the 912S
which is 10.5:1. The required force to spin the prop to 600 rpm where
the ignition modules start to park is thus greater in the 912S
system. I was flying with John H the first time he shut-down the engine
in the 914 demonstrator and we battery restarted it. At the time, he
was the one who told me the 912S would not airstart because the
unaided airflow would not spin the prop fast enough. At the time he
had not ever shut down the 912S in the short wing demonstrator.
If a way to restart by air has been found as Terry says, that is a great
advance in my knowledge!
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283865#283865
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Subject: | Re: MG folding prop |
Hi Ira
"If a way to restart by air has been found as Terry
says, that is a greatadvance in my knowledge!"
I
don't have any experiance with 912S, but with your ability to select
course pitch on Airmaster, and ability to pitch nose at groundand
quite easily select an airspeed in excess of 110knots, I have a hard time
trying to figure that a combination offine pitch (high
gear)and fairly mild compression ratio(compared to a high
performance motor) will not airstart a 4 cylinder motor with ~300CCs per
cylinder. This takes into consideration gearbox, but also fairly large fan
up front which is a pretty good force to be reckened with in hurricane
speed wind. Course pitch of proppseudo equates to a higher ground
pounding transmission gear when bump starting. The hardest motor I ever
encountered on a motorcycle trying to bump start was an all out road
racingCageva with a 2 cylinder Ducati engine with a compression
ratio that was beyond high. Probably 500ccs per cylinder that absolute
needed racing fuel octane.Several guys and top gear would in fact do
the deed which is pretty amazing. This bike wouldn't think about idling
below 3500RPM. The only thingI don't like about air starting a Rotax
is once motor begins to spin up, it's going to go from stopped with no oil
pressure to quite fast almost instantly. If you have cold thick oil on top
of having a lot of oil drain away, that is not going to be a secret to
long engine life. For a back up meansof starting motorif
starter will not do deed, this would be agood procedure to have
figured out and information stored inyour back pocket. Would you be
interested in taking me for a ride over Brookhaven for a mission? We go up
to 7500 or higherfeet over airport,I will bring my variometer
and we can shut off motor and test glide angle and sink rates with various
configurations, windmilling prop course and fine, stopped propcourse
andfine and stopped prop feathered. By using GPS and variometer and
altimeter readings we can fool with some different airspeeds into and with
the wind.Once numbers are ground willhave a better
understanding of best thing to do. Of course with oil still warm we can
practice air restarts.
Ron Parigoris
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