---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/28/10: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:08 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 (John Lawton) 2. 09:09 AM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 (Christoph Both) 3. 10:25 AM - Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? (Raimo Toivio) 4. 10:55 AM - Re: MG folding prop (rampil) 5. 11:00 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 (rampil) 6. 11:23 AM - Re: Re: MG folding prop (Terry Seaver (terrys)) 7. 11:24 AM - Re: Re: MG folding prop (Peter Zutrauen) 8. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 (Raimo Toivio) 9. 12:19 PM - Friday DOTH Sherburn (Richard Iddon) 10. 01:24 PM - Test (William McClellan) 11. 03:36 PM - Re: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 12. 05:24 PM - Re: MG folding prop (rampil) 13. 10:35 PM - Re: Re: MG folding prop (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:25 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 From: John Lawton > > >>>>>>OBTW very well said Mike we are supposed to be fellow > aviators!<<<<<<< > Hey David, What you said here is the very crux of why I responded so forcefully to ongoing, seemingly never ending, unfounded comments about Jabiru <> in the first place. Mike's comment echos my own frustration. Those of you who responded to my comments about Rotax did so exactly as I expected you would. You took the bait, hook, line and sinker. With the recent series of responses to my commentary regarding Rotax vs. Jabiru it is patently obvious that the Rotax owners here who have chimed in don't appreciate it one bit when I exaggerate failures that have occurred with your Rotax engine. Why then is it acceptable behavior for some here to repeatedly speak disparagingly of the Jabiru, more often than not with no direct experience with the engine? Are we Jabiru owners supposed to just sit here like potted plants and take it? Many here seem to feel unrestrained to criticize my Jabiru, despite the fact that they addmittedly have no practical experience with Jabiru engines. Doesn't it make more sense to educate yourself, rather than perpetuate exaggerated rumors? Giles, Mike, and others, understand that I intentionally exaggerated my comments about Rotax engine reliability, knowing full well that my comments would tweek someone into chiming in. Turns out my comments tweeked several folks, exactly as they were intended to do. To each of you who took the bait, I thank you kindly for brilliantly illustrating the very essence of my point. In the southern USA, we call that "hit dog hollers". To quote a more common euphemism, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. We are indeed supposed to be fellow aviators here. This is why I find the perpetual unfounded negative commentary about Jabiru engine <> so distasteful. We've all chosen to build and fly the Europa for our own reasons. Likewise, we've also each chosen an engine to power our Europas for our own reasons. We all should be encouraging each other and helping each other where we can, rather than besmirching the engine of choices of those of us that have decided to go with something OTR (other than Rotax) with little or no basis in fact. Isn't the purpose of this forum to share information, discuss issues and help each other? My own motivation to participate in this forum certainly is founded in this concept. For whatever reason, Jabiru seems to be the forum whippin' boy and it is long past time for it to stop. I and others who have decided to go with the Jabiru don't appreciate the exaggerated disparaging comments about our Jabiru engines any more than those of you who responded to my exaggerated disparaging comments about Rotax engines do. As I said initially, if you have specific issues you would like to discuss regarding the Jabiru 3300 and the Europa, I'm happy to oblige. The Jabiru 3300 is indeed a fine little engine, well suited for use in the Europa. Is it perfect? No, but neither is the Rotax 9XX. I have nothing to hide. I'm happy to share the knowledge I've gained over the past four years of actual, hands on experience with this engine. I'm sure the other Europa/Jabiru owners who read and participate in this forum are likewise happy to share their own experiences. If you have a question, by all means, ask! In any event, if you have no experience with Jabiru engines you would be far better off to keep your unfounded negative commentary and rumor mongering to yourself, rather than opening your mouth and removing all doubt. The Rotax owners here who chimed in and responded to my comments clearly expect me to govern myself in regard to my commentary about your Rotax engine, keeping the commentary truthful and above board.. All I am asking is that you do the same when it comes to my Jabiru 3300. I will now climb down off my soap box. Mission accomplished. (with a little help from my friends) Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:45 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 From: "Christoph Both" What a waste of time. Same for discussing if Apple is better than Microsoft. Much better to discuss which tool is best for the job. Let's stop comparing Apples to Oranges. Or Toyotas to GM. Christoph Both #223 From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Lawton Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 12:05 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 >>>>>>OBTW very well said Mike we are supposed to be fellow aviators!<<<<<<< Hey David, What you said here is the very crux of why I responded so forcefully to ongoing, seemingly never ending, unfounded comments about Jabiru <> in the first place. Mike's comment echos my own frustration. Those of you who responded to my comments about Rotax did so exactly as I expected you would. You took the bait, hook, line and sinker. With the recent series of responses to my commentary regarding Rotax vs. Jabiru it is patently obvious that the Rotax owners here who have chimed in don't appreciate it one bit when I exaggerate failures that have occurred with your Rotax engine. Why then is it acceptable behavior for some here to repeatedly speak disparagingly of the Jabiru, more often than not with no direct experience with the engine? Are we Jabiru owners supposed to just sit here like potted plants and take it? Many here seem to feel unrestrained to criticize my Jabiru, despite the fact that they addmittedly have no practical experience with Jabiru engines. Doesn't it make more sense to educate yourself, rather than perpetuate exaggerated rumors? Giles, Mike, and others, understand that I intentionally exaggerated my comments about Rotax engine reliability, knowing full well that my comments would tweek someone into chiming in. Turns out my comments tweeked several folks, exactly as they were intended to do. To each of you who took the bait, I thank you kindly for brilliantly illustrating the very essence of my point. In the southern USA, we call that "hit dog hollers". To quote a more common euphemism, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. We are indeed supposed to be fellow aviators here. This is why I find the perpetual unfounded negative commentary about Jabiru engine <> so distasteful. We've all chosen to build and fly the Europa for our own reasons. Likewise, we've also each chosen an engine to power our Europas for our own reasons. We all should be encouraging each other and helping each other where we can, rather than besmirching the engine of choices of those of us that have decided to go with something OTR (other than Rotax) with little or no basis in fact. Isn't the purpose of this forum to share information, discuss issues and help each other? My own motivation to participate in this forum certainly is founded in this concept. For whatever reason, Jabiru seems to be the forum whippin' boy and it is long past time for it to stop. I and others who have decided to go with the Jabiru don't appreciate the exaggerated disparaging comments about our Jabiru engines any more than those of you who responded to my exaggerated disparaging comments about Rotax engines do. As I said initially, if you have specific issues you would like to discuss regarding the Jabiru 3300 and the Europa, I'm happy to oblige. The Jabiru 3300 is indeed a fine little engine, well suited for use in the Europa. Is it perfect? No, but neither is the Rotax 9XX. I have nothing to hide. I'm happy to share the knowledge I've gained over the past four years of actual, hands on experience with this engine. I'm sure the other Europa/Jabiru owners who read and participate in this forum are likewise happy to share their own experiences. If you have a question, by all means, ask! In any event, if you have no experience with Jabiru engines you would be far better off to keep your unfounded negative commentary and rumor mongering to yourself, rather than opening your mouth and removing all doubt. The Rotax owners here who chimed in and responded to my comments clearly expect me to govern myself in regard to my commentary about your Rotax engine, keeping the commentary truthful and above board.. All I am asking is that you do the same when it comes to my Jabiru 3300. I will now climb down off my soap box. Mission accomplished. (with a little help from my friends) Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:25:15 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? Hi Ron May I introduce my drink holder? Before opening attachment please read this: - she is normally located around P2 - I can move her easily because she is light weight - she is safe (no hard particles) and easily removable if necessary - she is quite soft and her skin is real natural leather (quite dark) - she is a good soft drink holder but she can do other things also like taking care of my map or so - she is a superb beer holder also (but one by one only and never when airborne!) - some times I use her as a litter box (but later I usually repent strongly!) - I met her years ago - she never groans and would like to be always in the cockpit - she will be absolutely be my one, only and last drink holder (in the Europa=B4s cockpit) I ever need - if I will ever loose her it is not possible to find absolutely similar, only cheap copies or so - If I protrude my finger or even two of them into her, she feels good inside and the innner surface is like satin made (in fact silk) or even better may I say - she is always ready for my ideas, thoughts and dreams - my wife accepts her (as long as she will stay there) - very few but some of my friends may use her also (under my supervision only) Raimo OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417 The Experimental of The Year 2007 in Finland 37500 Lempaala Finland tel + 358 3 3753 777 fax + 358 3 3753 100 gsm + 358 40 590 1450 raimo.toivio@rwm.fi www.rwm.fi ----- Original Message ----- From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us To: Europa Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 1:22 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? Hi Kevin "The drink holder I speak of is Ann, my wife and she would rather that I not say where she was purchased. No pictures either. And... oh nevermind..." Wife, figured girlfriend/s! Thinkin may layup a lightweight CF creation. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:55:29 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: MG folding prop From: "rampil" Hi Peter, I am not sure what your criteria are for "heavy and complex". To me, compared with certified hydraulic prop controllers are not on both heavier and more complex but also more "stupid". BTW: It is not possible to air-start a 912S in any case. Cheers, Ira -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283810#283810 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:00:01 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 From: "rampil" and while we are at it (I mean the Europa list topics), please let us stop copying into replies the well written but copious comments from Mike. I don't need to reread then 10 or 15 times. Ira -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283811#283811 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:23:14 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: MG folding prop From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" Hi Ira, I had also heard it was not possible to air-start a 912S, but it can be done. We have done it with the Whirlwind prop and with the Airmaster, both at about 110 knots. We were concerned about it in motor-glider mode, both when it would stop windmilling after shut down (between 50-60 knots), and if we could do an air start if our battery went dead while soaring with the engine off. The speeds worked out just right for our needs. Regards, Terry A135 / N135TD XS with 912S, Airmaster prop, long and short wings. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rampil Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 10:54 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: MG folding prop Hi Peter, I am not sure what your criteria are for "heavy and complex". To me, compared with certified hydraulic prop controllers are not on both heavier and more complex but also more "stupid". BTW: It is not possible to air-start a 912S in any case. Cheers, Ira -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283810#283810 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:24:08 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: MG folding prop From: Peter Zutrauen Hi Ira, Maybe not the 912S, but the 914 can air-start (as demonstrated to me by John in Lakeland a few years back). I guess I should have said 'heavier' instead of heavy. I consider any prop system which has multiple possible failure modes (other than the obvious throwing of a blade) which can result in loss of thrust (or reverse thrust) to be 'complex'. Personal opinion only, FWIW, YMMV, etc. etc. If I could get beyond the lack of a streamlined spinner (prop folded out), the passive, forward folding prop seems to be an eloquent engineering solution for the long wings.... to me at least. Cheers, Pete A239 On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 1:54 PM, rampil wrote: > > Hi Peter, > > I am not sure what your criteria are for "heavy and complex". > > To me, compared with certified hydraulic prop controllers are not on > both heavier and more complex but also more "stupid". > > BTW: It is not possible to air-start a 912S in any case. > > Cheers, > > Ira > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283810#283810 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:00:49 PM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 Christoph, that is a waste time of course but it is fun to "fight". Also for some readers /followers. It is always possible some one can find a hidden secret from these debats. R&D centers are monitoring this kind of lists also and they can find ideas to make things better. Jabiru or Rotax no matter but I am happy I have not Lycoming (320 "H" engine) any more. Raimo ex Cessna-owner ----- Original Message ----- From: Christoph Both To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 7:08 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 What a waste of time. Same for discussing if Apple is better than Microsoft. Much better to discuss which tool is best for the job. Let's stop comparing Apples to Oranges. Or Toyotas to GM. Christoph Both #223 From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Lawton Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 12:05 PM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 01/27/10 >>>>>>OBTW very well said Mike we are supposed to be fellow aviators!<<<<<<< Hey David, What you said here is the very crux of why I responded so forcefully to ongoing, seemingly never ending, unfounded comments about Jabiru <> in the first place. Mike's comment echos my own frustration. Those of you who responded to my comments about Rotax did so exactly as I expected you would. You took the bait, hook, line and sinker. With the recent series of responses to my commentary regarding Rotax vs. Jabiru it is patently obvious that the Rotax owners here who have chimed in don't appreciate it one bit when I exaggerate failures that have occurred with your Rotax engine. Why then is it acceptable behavior for some here to repeatedly speak disparagingly of the Jabiru, more often than not with no direct experience with the engine? Are we Jabiru owners supposed to just sit here like potted plants and take it? Many here seem to feel unrestrained to criticize my Jabiru, despite the fact that they addmittedly have no practical experience with Jabiru engines. Doesn't it make more sense to educate yourself, rather than perpetuate exaggerated rumors? Giles, Mike, and others, understand that I intentionally exaggerated my comments about Rotax engine reliability, knowing full well that my comments would tweek someone into chiming in. Turns out my comments tweeked several folks, exactly as they were intended to do. To each of you who took the bait, I thank you kindly for brilliantly illustrating the very essence of my point. In the southern USA, we call that "hit dog hollers". To quote a more common euphemism, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. We are indeed supposed to be fellow aviators here. This is why I find the perpetual unfounded negative commentary about Jabiru engine <> so distasteful. We've all chosen to build and fly the Europa for our own reasons. Likewise, we've also each chosen an engine to power our Europas for our own reasons. We all should be encouraging each other and helping each other where we can, rather than besmirching the engine of choices of those of us that have decided to go with something OTR (other than Rotax) with little or no basis in fact. Isn't the purpose of this forum to share information, discuss issues and help each other? My own motivation to participate in this forum certainly is founded in this concept. For whatever reason, Jabiru seems to be the forum whippin' boy and it is long past time for it to stop. I and others who have decided to go with the Jabiru don't appreciate the exaggerated disparaging comments about our Jabiru engines any more than those of you who responded to my exaggerated disparaging comments about Rotax engines do. As I said initially, if you have specific issues you would like to discuss regarding the Jabiru 3300 and the Europa, I'm happy to oblige. The Jabiru 3300 is indeed a fine little engine, well suited for use in the Europa. Is it perfect? No, but neither is the Rotax 9XX. I have nothing to hide. I'm happy to share the knowledge I've gained over the past four years of actual, hands on experience with this engine. I'm sure the other Europa/Jabiru owners who read and participate in this forum are likewise happy to share their own experiences. If you have a question, by all means, ask! In any event, if you have no experience with Jabiru engines you would be far better off to keep your unfounded negative commentary and rumor mongering to yourself, rather than opening your mouth and removing all doubt. The Rotax owners here who chimed in and responded to my comments clearly expect me to govern myself in regard to my commentary about your Rotax engine, keeping the commentary truthful and above board.. All I am asking is that you do the same when it comes to my Jabiru 3300. I will now climb down off my soap box. Mission accomplished. (with a little help from my friends) Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:19:52 PM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: Europa-List: Friday DOTH Sherburn Hi all. The weather looks like clearing up tomorrow morning, in the north at least, so I am proposing to head for Sherburn for lunch. Would be pleased to see any other Europa flyers (Rotax or Jabiru powered most welcome). Richard Iddon G-RIXS ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:21 PM PST US From: William McClellan Subject: Europa-List: Test do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:52 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Anyone install an easy to use for pilot drink holder? From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Raimo Thanks for sharing your holder and description! Very good. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:40 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: MG folding prop From: "rampil" Hi Peter, The 914 is a different kettle of fish when it comes to airstart because it is a low compression engine (8.5:1 if I recall correctly) versus the 912S which is 10.5:1. The required force to spin the prop to 600 rpm where the ignition modules start to park is thus greater in the 912S system. I was flying with John H the first time he shut-down the engine in the 914 demonstrator and we battery restarted it. At the time, he was the one who told me the 912S would not airstart because the unaided airflow would not spin the prop fast enough. At the time he had not ever shut down the 912S in the short wing demonstrator. If a way to restart by air has been found as Terry says, that is a great advance in my knowledge! -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283865#283865 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: MG folding prop From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Ira "If a way to restart by air has been found as Terry says, that is a greatadvance in my knowledge!" I don't have any experiance with 912S, but with your ability to select course pitch on Airmaster, and ability to pitch nose at groundand quite easily select an airspeed in excess of 110knots, I have a hard time trying to figure that a combination offine pitch (high gear)and fairly mild compression ratio(compared to a high performance motor) will not airstart a 4 cylinder motor with ~300CCs per cylinder. This takes into consideration gearbox, but also fairly large fan up front which is a pretty good force to be reckened with in hurricane speed wind. Course pitch of proppseudo equates to a higher ground pounding transmission gear when bump starting. The hardest motor I ever encountered on a motorcycle trying to bump start was an all out road racingCageva with a 2 cylinder Ducati engine with a compression ratio that was beyond high. Probably 500ccs per cylinder that absolute needed racing fuel octane.Several guys and top gear would in fact do the deed which is pretty amazing. This bike wouldn't think about idling below 3500RPM. The only thingI don't like about air starting a Rotax is once motor begins to spin up, it's going to go from stopped with no oil pressure to quite fast almost instantly. If you have cold thick oil on top of having a lot of oil drain away, that is not going to be a secret to long engine life. For a back up meansof starting motorif starter will not do deed, this would be agood procedure to have figured out and information stored inyour back pocket. Would you be interested in taking me for a ride over Brookhaven for a mission? We go up to 7500 or higherfeet over airport,I will bring my variometer and we can shut off motor and test glide angle and sink rates with various configurations, windmilling prop course and fine, stopped propcourse andfine and stopped prop feathered. By using GPS and variometer and altimeter readings we can fool with some different airspeeds into and with the wind.Once numbers are ground willhave a better understanding of best thing to do. Of course with oil still warm we can practice air restarts. Ron Parigoris ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.