Europa-List Digest Archive

Sat 02/06/10


Total Messages Posted: 11



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 11:51 AM - Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? (Dwight Van Zanen)
     2. 11:57 AM - Re: Re: First New Zealand South Island DOTH (Tim Ward)
     3. 02:08 PM - Re: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? (Fred Klein)
     4. 03:57 PM - Re: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? (craig bastin)
     5. 06:57 PM - Re: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? (rampil)
     6. 07:06 PM - Re: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? (Gary Leinberger)
     7. 08:31 PM - Re: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? (Fred Klein)
     8. 09:12 PM - Re: Re: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? (Kevin Klinefelter)
     9. 09:59 PM - Thank You: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? (Dwight Van Zanen)
    10. 10:06 PM - Re: Re: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? (Dwight Van Zanen)
    11. 10:56 PM - Re: Re: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? (craig bastin)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 11:51:35 AM PST US
    From: Dwight Van Zanen <dbvz@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG?
    I am new to this system of communication. If you can direct me to somewher e to get this information=2C please let me know. I have been interested in a Europa for some time and would like your advice on the feasability of a diesel tri-gear=2C long wing=3B with aux fuel tank =2C IFR GPS coupled to autopilot with altitude hold=2C BRS and oxygen syste ms. I have looked into the WAM 120 from Weisch Airmotive=2C but open to alt ernatives. I am in the USA where an Experimental glider can be flown withou t a medical=2C night and IFR if properly equipped. Here are some reasons fo r my question: 1. Long range: Use a turbo-diesel at 3gph=2C aux tank=2C perhaps 2000NM in economy cruise? 3. GPS direct: 4. Low fuel cost: See #1 5. More safety in a SEL: great power-off glide=2C diesel fuel=2C add a BRS 6. Easier to make modifications: EXP=2C pretty simple systems 7. Cheaper for maintenance: Do it yourself mostly 8. Steady IFR platform: wingspan of 47.25 feet 9. Higher altitudes: turbo-diesel=2C add oxygen system 10. Remove the wings=2C take it home in a trailer. No hangar rental. 11. Higher speeds: 150kts TAS @ 10k=2C turbo for altitude. 12. No medical required for a registered glider in the USA=2C even for nigh t and IFR if equipped. And on the negatives: 13. Reduced to 2 seats. Solo for long range flights. Possible to increase u seful load with more power? 14. Initial cost to buy/build and set it up the way I want it. 15. Necessity of getting the glider rating and self-launch endorsement. 16. No toilet. Not needed with my current plane=2C but Porta-John works. 17. ? I know some people consider EXP a negative=2C but see 1-12... Most of my flying has been solo or with one passenger anyway=2C retired wit h grown kids mostly on the other coast. The MG idea would not work for ever yone=2C but it seems like it would work for me better than my current plane does. And the FAA rules allow night and IFR in a properly equiped MG witho ut a medical. May be valuable as I get older. Thanks for any advice or com ments on feasability. And if anyone is doing something similar=2C I would l ove to hear from you. Dwight B. Van Zanen 22426 262 Ave. SE Maple Valley=2C WA 98038 (425) 432-2213 dbvz@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft=92s powerful SPAM protection.


    Message 2


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    Time: 11:57:17 AM PST US
    From: "Tim Ward" <ward.t@xtra.co.nz>
    Subject: Re: First New Zealand South Island DOTH
    Peter, Next time we will be there. Unfortunately my wife's birthday is on Waitangi Day and this year it was her 50th!! So had to be here tonight or else!!! Good to hear from you. Will contact you when I have time in Auckland to view your creation again! Cheers, Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street' Fendalton, Christchurch. NEW ZEALAND Ph. 64 3 3515166 Mob 021 0640221 Email ward.t@xtra.co.nz ----- Original Message ----- From: "pestar" <peter@reivernet.com> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 7:31 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: First New Zealand South Island DOTH > > Not good enough, you were supposed to be at Sport Avex this weekend [Wink] > .The other 2 Europas were lonely. > > Regards > > Peter Armstrong > Sport Avex Tauranga > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=285038#285038 > > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 02:08:24 PM PST US
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Subject: Re: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG?
    Dwight, That's quite a laundry list...sounds like you might be getting a bit heavy...t'would appear that you'd be doing some serious cloud-street soaring to meet your range target...though, as you may know, a short- wing Europa has encircled the globe... Every now and then there's a seller who, for liability reasons, wants to sell his plane w/o an engine...then you could re-engine to suit and spend some spare time building a set of long wings...consider your appetite for pioneering...you'll want to have a hearty one...then again, if you want to be a builder, start w/ an airframe kit...only one or two Europas w/ diesels as far as I know. I know of no one who is actively pursuing a BRS install... Good luck, Fred On Feb 6, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Dwight Van Zanen wrote: > I am new to this system of communication. If you can direct me to > somewhere to get this information, please let me know. > > I have been interested in a Europa for some time and would like your > advice on the feasability of a diesel tri-gear, long wing; with aux > fuel tank, IFR GPS coupled to autopilot with altitude hold, BRS and > oxygen systems. I have looked into the WAM 120 from Weisch > Airmotive, but open to alternatives. I am in the USA where an > Experimental glider can be flown without a medical, night and IFR if > properly equipped. Here are some reasons for my question: > > 1. Long range: Use a turbo-diesel at 3gph, aux tank, perhaps 2000NM > in economy cruise? > 3. GPS direct: > 4. Low fuel cost: See #1 > 5. More safety in a SEL: great power-off glide, diesel fuel, add a BRS > 6. Easier to make modifications: EXP, pretty simple systems > 7. Cheaper for maintenance: Do it yourself mostly > 8. Steady IFR platform: wingspan of 47.25 feet > 9. Higher altitudes: turbo-diesel, add oxygen system > 10. Remove the wings, take it home in a trailer. No hangar rental. > 11. Higher speeds: 150kts TAS @ 10k, turbo for altitude. > 12. No medical required for a registered glider in the USA, even for > night and IFR if equipped. > > And on the negatives: > > 13. Reduced to 2 seats. Solo for long range flights. Possible to > increase useful load with more power? > 14. Initial cost to buy/build and set it up the way I want it. > 15. Necessity of getting the glider rating and self-launch > endorsement. > 16. No toilet. Not needed with my current plane, but Porta-John works. > 17. ? I know some people consider EXP a negative, but see 1-12... > > Most of my flying has been solo or with one passenger anyway, > retired with grown kids mostly on the other coast. The MG idea would > not work for everyone, but it seems like it would work for me better > than my current plane does. And the FAA rules allow night and IFR in > a properly equiped MG without a medical. May be valuable as I get > older. Thanks for any advice or comments on feasability. And if > anyone is doing something similar, I would love to hear from you. > > > Dwight B. Van Zanen > 22426 262 Ave. SE > Maple Valley, WA 98038 > (425) 432-2213 > dbvz@hotmail.com > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft=92s powerful SPAM protection. > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 03:57:54 PM PST US
    From: "craig bastin" <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
    Subject: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG?
    I would suggest you have a look at the MGL EFIS panels, which will give you the IFR, autopilot gear you need, at a great price compared to most of the others. The Smart 1.5l turbo diesel comes in at 95hp, which is about the same as the rotax engines, fuel consumption runs to about 5 litres an hours good luck, sounds like a good project. craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dwight Van Zanen Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 5:47 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? I am new to this system of communication. If you can direct me to somewhere to get this information, please let me know. I have been interested in a Europa for some time and would like your advice on the feasability of a diesel tri-gear, long wing; with aux fuel tank, IFR GPS coupled to autopilot with altitude hold, BRS and oxygen systems. I have looked into the WAM 120 from Weisch Airmotive, but open to alternatives. I am in the USA where an Experimental glider can be flown without a medical, night and IFR if properly equipped. Here are some reasons for my question: 1. Long range: Use a turbo-diesel at 3gph, aux tank, perhaps 2000NM in economy cruise? 3. GPS direct: 4. Low fuel cost: See #1 5. More safety in a SEL: great power-off glide, diesel fuel, add a BRS 6. Easier to make modifications: EXP, pretty simple systems 7. Cheaper for maintenance: Do it yourself mostly 8. Steady IFR platform: wingspan of 47.25 feet 9. Higher altitudes: turbo-diesel, add oxygen system 10. Remove the wings, take it home in a trailer. No hangar rental. 11. Higher speeds: 150kts TAS @ 10k, turbo for altitude. 12. No medical required for a registered glider in the USA, even for night and IFR if equipped. And on the negatives: 13. Reduced to 2 seats. Solo for long range flights. Possible to increase useful load with more power? 14. Initial cost to buy/build and set it up the way I want it. 15. Necessity of getting the glider rating and self-launch endorsement. 16. No toilet. Not needed with my current plane, but Porta-John works. 17. ? I know some people consider EXP a negative, but see 1-12... Most of my flying has been solo or with one passenger anyway, retired with grown kids mostly on the other coast. The MG idea would not work for everyone, but it seems like it would work for me better than my current plane does. And the FAA rules allow night and IFR in a properly equiped MG without a medical. May be valuable as I get older. Thanks for any advice or comments on feasability. And if anyone is doing something similar, I would love to hear from you. Dwight B. Van Zanen 22426 262 Ave. SE Maple Valley, WA 98038 (425) 432-2213 dbvz@hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsofts powerful SPAM protection.


    Message 5


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    Time: 06:57:59 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG?
    From: "rampil" <ira.rampil@gmail.com>
    Realistically, I think you are asking too much from available hardware. A rotax tri-gear Europa has a range of about 300 nm with the factory tank at reasonable cruise. There is no standard long range tank for trigears or taildraggers, only available for monowheels. That extended tank only added about 50% to the range. Expecting 150kts on 3gph also seems a bit optimistic too. I get about 135 kts at 5000' at 5.5 gph with 912S. In the 912S fuel consumption increases with altitude. If you want a parachute for the fuselage, you will need to design that yourself since it has not been done before. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=285156#285156


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:06:08 PM PST US
    From: Gary Leinberger <Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu>
    Subject: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG?
    It is a good project idea - I am building my Europa MG tri-gear with full IFR with the same ideas . I have both sets of wings but will fly first with the short ones. I did think about a bigger engine but settled on the 912S. Unlike hot rods - more power is not necessarily good - there are very real problems of weight and balance as well as structural strength with a bigger engine - as well as handling. And more power won't necessarily translate into more speed or performance. There is also a safety issue - besides weight and balance. The airfoil, wing area and stabilators are designed for certain speeds and weight - fly at over the weight limit or speed limit and very bad things can happen. The plane as designed is very nice, and any mods greatly increase the build time - as I have learned the hard way. As for only two seats - I can only think of a few trips in 38 years of flying where I had more than 2 people in a plane. I looked at attaching a BRS (I have one in my Kitfox Lite) but it would require a complete re-engineering of the airplane. And in the Europa (as in the SR-22) use of the chute destroys the plane. Better to build and fly so you don't need it - and it only helps in very limited situations (like an in-flight structural failure at altitude - it won't help in situations where most accidents happen - take-offs and landings - since the chute can't deploy fast enough.) Realize that with the glider wings the carrying weight is reduced as the wings weigh, I think, 100 pounds more than the short wings. Be sure you register the plane as a motor glider even if you build the short wings first as it is very difficult to change the classification after registering as a SEL. There is a guy in Utah or Nevada that flies up to 22,000 ft. in his "Mini-U2" with oxygen. I think he has the 914 Turbo. I think his name is Dave Anderson(?). He had a web site that was pretty good. It may still be on the club site. I would suggest the high top and extra width mod (I am 6 ft tall and have wide shoulders) - this also gives you a higher windshield that greatly increases the viewing area. And it appears to not hurt performance. Gary Leinberger A237 ________________________________________ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig bastin [craigb@onthenet.com.au] Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 6:59 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? I would suggest you have a look at the MGL EFIS panels, which will give you the IFR, autopilot gear you need, at a great price compared to most of the others. The Smart 1.5l turbo diesel comes in at 95hp, which is about the same as the rotax engines, fuel consumption runs to about 5 litres an hours good luck, sounds like a good project. craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dwight Van Zanen Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 5:47 AM Subject: Europa-List: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? I am new to this system of communication. If you can direct me to somewhere to get this information, please let me know. I have been interested in a Europa for some time and would like your advice on the feasability of a diesel tri-gear, long wing; with aux fuel tank, IFR GPS coupled to autopilot with altitude hold, BRS and oxygen systems. I have looked into the WAM 120 from Weisch Airmotive, but open to alternatives. I am in the USA where an Experimental glider can be flown without a medical, night and IFR if properly equipped. Here are some reasons for my question: 1. Long range: Use a turbo-diesel at 3gph, aux tank, perhaps 2000NM in economy cruise? 3. GPS direct: 4. Low fuel cost: See #1 5. More safety in a SEL: great power-off glide, diesel fuel, add a BRS 6. Easier to make modifications: EXP, pretty simple systems 7. Cheaper for maintenance: Do it yourself mostly 8. Steady IFR platform: wingspan of 47.25 feet 9. Higher altitudes: turbo-diesel, add oxygen system 10. Remove the wings, take it home in a trailer. No hangar rental. 11. Higher speeds: 150kts TAS @ 10k, turbo for altitude. 12. No medical required for a registered glider in the USA, even for night and IFR if equipped. And on the negatives: 13. Reduced to 2 seats. Solo for long range flights. Possible to increase useful load with more power? 14. Initial cost to buy/build and set it up the way I want it. 15. Necessity of getting the glider rating and self-launch endorsement. 16. No toilet. Not needed with my current plane, but Porta-John works. 17. ? I know some people consider EXP a negative, but see 1-12... Most of my flying has been solo or with one passenger anyway, retired with grown kids mostly on the other coast. The MG idea would not work for everyone, but it seems like it would work for me better than my current plane does. And the FAA rules allow night and IFR in a properly equiped MG without a medical. May be valuable as I get older. Thanks for any advice or comments on feasability. And if anyone is doing something similar, I would love to hear from you. Dwight B. Van Zanen 22426 262 Ave. SE Maple Valley, WA 98038 (425) 432-2213 dbvz@hotmail.com<mailto:dbvz@hotmail.com> [http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/images/smilies/upload1/blueplane.jpg] ________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsofts powerful SPAM protection. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 7


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    Time: 08:31:31 PM PST US
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Subject: Re: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG?
    On Feb 6, 2010, at 7:03 PM, Gary Leinberger wrote: > any mods greatly increase the build time - as I have learned the > hard way. Hey Gary...tis a slippery slope is it not? ...bet my mod list is longer than yours! Hang in there...you get enough snow this weekend? Fred


    Message 8


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    Time: 09:12:05 PM PST US
    From: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann@gotsky.com>
    Subject: Re: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG?
    > I think,based on my mono with 914/Airmaster prop combo with aux alternator > and intercooler up front (around 175lbs.) and battery in back, that the > W&B would not work out if your diesel engine and prop are more than that. > Just too much weight forward on this airframe.. Kevin > > >


    Message 9


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    Time: 09:59:53 PM PST US
    From: Dwight Van Zanen <dbvz@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Thank You: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG?
    Thanks for the comments. I was not aware a BRS was a serious problem for t he Europa. Nothing I have flown has had it=2C but I thought it would be a nice add in an EXP. Scratch that. For the range=2C I was looking for the maximum fuel load with me in the pla ne and nothing else. In other words=2C useful load less 175 pounds all as fuel with the tankage for it. Not sure where to put it=2C so if anyone has done it that would be useful information. One thought was that the J.L. O sborne Inc. tip tanks (for like a Comanche) actually "lift themselves" sinc e the tanks and fuel weigh about the same as the additional gross weight pe rmitted when you add the tip tanks on a Comanche. The tip tanks improve th e wing performance and puts some weight on the "other end" of the wing wher e it actually helps with the stress forces at the wing roots. But I suspec t putting some weight out at the end of the MG wing may not be possible bec ause of structural issues. The turbo-diesel is obviously for altitude and fuel economy=2C but also for speed. For economy cruise it would be running at slightly less than 50% p ower. Speed or range=2C you can only get one. You can throttle back for m ore economy=2C but for more speed you have to have enough power to pull it along. The Europa performance sheet said 150kts at 10K with the Rotax 914 =2C and I expected a 120HP turbo-diesel to do as well for max speed=2C and better than the 914 for max range. I had looked at the WAM 120 because it has a peak power of 120HP=2C which i s why I asked if it is possible to increase useful load with more power. M any aircraft do. My Cherokee 180 has a higher max gross than the same airf rame with less power. Does the Rotax 914 allow a higher max gross than the 912? If tip tanks are not possible=2C perhaps the long wings with the WAM 120 would rate an adjustment to the maximum gross? I am not sure how much freedom the builder has to make these adjustments. Piper does it=2C but t hey have an engineering staff to justify it. The STC for the Osborne tips provdes for a gross weight increase=2C but they went through some steps to prove the design. At this point I am mostly looking for comments on the feasability of this u sing the Europa MG as the platform. So far it seems to be the best option =2C and where it can not be stretched to fit all the ideas (like the BRS) I would scale back as necessary. I am just looking for the extent that the optimum dream machine would need to be scaled back=2C using the Europa=3B b efore making any decisions about getting started. Thanks again for the com ments. Dwight B. Van Zanen 22426 262 Ave. SE Maple Valley=2C WA 98038 (425) 432-2213 dbvz@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.


    Message 10


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    Time: 10:06:07 PM PST US
    From: Dwight Van Zanen <dbvz@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG?
    Oops. This is the engine information: http://www.wilksch.com/wam-120.html 127kg would be 280 pounds. Dwight B. Van Zanen 22426 262 Ave. SE Maple Valley=2C WA 98038 (425) 432-2213 dbvz@hotmail.com > From: kevann@gotsky.com > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? > Date: Sat=2C 6 Feb 2010 21:08:15 -0800 > > > > > I think=2Cbased on my mono with 914/Airmaster prop combo with aux alter nator > > and intercooler up front (around 175lbs.) and battery in back=2C that t he > > W&B would not work out if your diesel engine and prop are more than tha t. > > Just too much weight forward on this airframe.. > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft=92s powerful SPAM protection.


    Message 11


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    Time: 10:56:41 PM PST US
    From: "craig bastin" <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
    Subject: Re: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG?
    If you are talking a trade off of baggage for fuel, and you run the 1470 lb MTOW that some of the non UK builders are running then you could add another 60kg (possibly more depending on empty weight) of fuel in the baggage bay, just have to watch the CofG is ok, which would about double your fuel load, which based on your 3 gph would give you about 12hrs endurance, question is would you want to go that long without being able to stretch the legs. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dwight Van Zanen Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:04 PM To: europa-list matronics Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? Oops. This is the engine information: http://www.wilksch.com/wam-120.html 127kg would be 280 pounds. Dwight B. Van Zanen 22426 262 Ave. SE Maple Valley, WA 98038 (425) 432-2213 dbvz@hotmail.com > From: kevann@gotsky.com > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 21:08:15 -0800 > <kevann@gotsky.com> > > > I think,based on my mono with 914/Airmaster prop combo with aux alternator > > and intercooler up front (around 175lbs.) and battery in back, that the > > W&B would not work out if your diesel engine and prop are more than that. > > Just too much weight forward on this airframe.. > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsofts powerful1/' target='_new'>Sign up now.




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