---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 03/02/10: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:56 AM - Re: Electric Trim Problems (Robert C Harrison) 2. 02:56 AM - Re: Electric Trim Problems (Mike Parkin) 3. 06:46 AM - Re: Electric Trim Problems () 4. 09:21 AM - Re: Very Last Minute DOTH - Tue - Cotswold Airport (Raymond Wren) 5. 11:09 AM - Re: Electric Trim Problems (John Price) 6. 12:12 PM - Re: Re: Electric Trim Problems (Gerry Holland) 7. 01:02 PM - Re: Re: Electric Trim Problems (Robert C Harrison) 8. 03:57 PM - Re: Re: Electric Trim Problems (Mike Parkin) 9. 09:35 PM - Re: Re: Electric Trim Problems (Gavin & Anne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:56:03 AM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Electric Trim Problems Hi! Terry. The relay sticks in the up mode and will not reverse until full travel position then reverses and hides the fault Which ever switch you use.. Take Scott Menzemer's advice and get a MK2 relay. Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Seaver (terrys) Sent: 02 March 2010 00:11 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Electric Trim Problems We have been having problems with sticking trim, both directions, but only from the rocker switch in the instrument panel. The trim buttons on our pilot's stick never seem to have that problem. Since both sets of switches are connected to the same circuit at the relay deck, It seems that it would have to be a bad switch, not the relay deck. Only if sticking were from both switch positions would I expect it to be a relay deck problem. Any comments would be appreciated, since I am just about to replace the panel mounted rocker switch. Terry Seaver A135 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gavin & Anne Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 2:01 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Electric Trim Problems Hi Bob and John This is very coincidental, I am just in the process of fitting a new RS2 rocker switch on the panel because of a sticking trim. As you say it sticks when trimming down and I have to reverse the direction to rectify the situation. I had a spare rocker switch from some time ago when I had a trim runaway and bought a new switch but it never recurred so didn't fit it. I also run the system with a stick top grip through a RayAllen relay deck, probably the mark one which I have had for some time What you are saying is that the Relay is the problem. I'll email RayAllen and see what they say Thanks Gavin Lee....... ZK-EPA #355 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert C Harrison Sent: Monday, 1 March 2010 11:05 p.m. Subject: RE: Europa-List: Electric Trim Problems Hi! John. Yes I can tell you all about it and most who fly with me can also! I had this problem initially a number of years ago and the Ray Allen people assured me it must be a wiring failure, the hassle proving all the circuitry needs to be done to be believed. Still the failure was intermittently present. Next I had to remove the servo (fortunately I had built in a facility which locked the servo locating bolt heads enabling the nuts to be removed from the rear...in anticipation of needing it out!) I returned it to Ray Allen Company where they failed to reproduce the symptoms. In my case the failure was identical to yours and I found much to my horror that if I let go of the control stick and trimmed fully nose up (scary because you wouldn't land it like that and the forces on the stabilators and rear controls are phenomenal)it then will be possible to reverse the trim motor. They returned the servo after checking and for good measure included a replacement MK1 relay for 50% of the normal price. I refitted the servo and also replaced the relay. The problem had been cured. Some considerable time ensued before the identical problem returned. I have reported this to the Ray Allen and they said they had now identified that the MK1 Relay actually fails but in one direction only so when the system is reversed it hides the fault. They have now (again at 50% cost) have sent a MK2 relay saying that they have at last identified the original fault. The MK2 is slightly different in shape and size and sitting on my desk awaiting fitting. Pleased to be of service to you with this news...(as usual I am out in front where trouble is concerned !) However I now am most concerned that you aren't preceding me with the MK2 which is failed? If you would advise me that I'd be obliged. My system has a panel trim switch and a control stick top trim switch too. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Rotax 914. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Price Sent: 01 March 2010 09:00 Subject: Europa-List: Electric Trim Problems Any help on this one would be gratefully received. Classic Monowheel G-SHSH now flying for over 6 years. We have now an intermittent fault on the electric trim. The controller is by a 'coolie hat' on the stick driving a Ray Allen servo. The trim will always work nose up but has an intermittent fault when used to trim nose down. We have replaced the switch and the servo but still the problem remains. Any thoughts ? John Price. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288706#288706 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:56:18 AM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Electric Trim Problems Hi Guys, I note that these relay decks cost $46.00 and they are even more to buy outside the USA. I have roll and pitch trim servos operating the trim through a home made relay deck. I recently modified the relay deck to facilitate the auto-trim feature of my altitude hold. I have never had any problems at all ( touch wood). The basic pitch trim only requires 2 relays and 2 diodes and a bit of veroboard (all available from Maplins) - total cost about 5.00. Making a relay deck really is a simple task - takes about an hour. Regards, Mike >You can download our order form and FAX/email it to us. Aircraft Spruce has >our REL-2 available also. > >Best regards, > >Scott Menziimer > >Doesn't say anything about a half price relay but I will probably order one >anyway ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:11 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: Electric Trim Problems I would second that, Its never been a problem so far :-) Ivor ---- Gerry Holland wrote: > I chose the same Unit as Paul, the Matt Dralle Speed Governor for my Europa. > It can be found at: http://www.matronics.com/governor/index.htm and at $67 > is excellent value. > If positioned correctly is easy too get to and adjust during the initial > flights of Europa to get a smoother TRIM transition rather than the high > speed operation that seems the normal. > Regards > Gerry > > Gerry Holland > 07808 402404 > gholland@content-stream.co.uk > > Based at White Ox Mead, Near Bath, UK > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:21:26 AM PST US From: "Raymond Wren" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Very Last Minute DOTH - Tue - Cotswold Airport Paddy, You're a day late - I went there on Monday in the Liberty. Hopefully next time we'll be able to make it on the same day as each other. Regards Ray N518XL -- raymondwren@fastmail.co.uk ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:09:52 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Electric Trim Problems From: "John Price" Thanks Chaps, Having given this some thought I think that we will replace the relay for a new Mk 2 Ray Allen unit. This Saturdays job! We don't think that the wiring is the fault because the DC motor would exhibit the problem when driving in either direction. As we didn't build the aeroplane any suggestions where we might find the thing? I suspect behind the panel close to the isolator switch might be a good starting point. Last help, Is taking the panel off easy, or a sod of a job ? John. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288954#288954 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:12:20 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electric Trim Problems From: Gerry Holland John Hi! Been following and commenting on your TRIM problem and now commiserate with you having to battle with an unknown Panel. As a Builder and until recently an operator of a Europa XS can I suggest some ideas. Firstly...can you contact the Builder or are there any documents with the Aircraft. If its a real Relay you might hear it click so create a quiet atmosphere and get your ear to the panel. If you have to go into the Panel make the first expedition based around removing single items such as Instruments or Radio. If the ultimate is required....the bloody thing needing to come out then remove Control sticks and bias towards rear of cabin. Cover the Tunnel to avoid damage and remove any vertical levers or switches in that area too. If you are lucky it will be secured by nuts on the Firewall side. BTW it will be heavy so watch your back, fingers etc. Could be 25lbs. Its not impossible to cut small sub panels with Modellers Jigsaw to gain access and repair or make good afterwards. Best of luck! It will all work out if you take your time, and move Panel out slowly with someone watching down through Front Windshield to feedback what they can see being stretched! Regards Gerry Gerry Holland 07808 402404 gholland@content-stream.co.uk ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:02:49 PM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Electric Trim Problems Hi! John, There wasn't a recognized way to fix the panel, You will probably have to locate all the connection plugs as you pull the panel forward. Disconnect the battery though ...first operation. I built mine as fixed and put two access panels from the engine side of the firewall, but it's still a pig of a job. I would think it will be located some where close by the Flap relay as a pair.(Be sure to get the right one ! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Price Sent: 02 March 2010 19:08 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Electric Trim Problems Thanks Chaps, Having given this some thought I think that we will replace the relay for a new Mk 2 Ray Allen unit. This Saturdays job! We don't think that the wiring is the fault because the DC motor would exhibit the problem when driving in either direction. As we didn't build the aeroplane any suggestions where we might find the thing? I suspect behind the panel close to the isolator switch might be a good starting point. Last help, Is taking the panel off easy, or a sod of a job ? John. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288954#288954 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:57:35 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Electric Trim Problems >As we didn't build the aeroplane any suggestions where we might find the thing? I suspect behind the panel close to the isolator switch might be a >good starting point. Last help, Is taking the panel off easy, or a sod of a job ? > >John. John, Take care before ripping into the instrument panel. If the installation has a single rocker switch for the pitch trim, it is quite possible that there is not a relay deck fitted. A relay deck is not required in the basic system. It depends on the rating of the switch contacts, the contacts of the supplied rocker switch were up to the task. If your 'coolie hat' stick top is a Ray Allen one, in the basic configuration, it does not require a relay deck. If you can contact the original builder, tips on panel removal would be very useful. I know of some installations that were not designed to be removable. Regards, Mike. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:33 PM PST US From: "Gavin & Anne" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Electric Trim Problems Hi John If you have a stick top switch and a rocker switch there will be a relay deck in the system Both switches will be connected into the relay and 2 wires will run from the relay to the servo. The relay is probably fairly close behind your rocker switch Ray Allen has an excellent wiring diagram on their web site for this exact situation. Good Luck Gavin Lee....#355 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Price Sent: Wednesday, 3 March 2010 8:08 a.m. Subject: Europa-List: Re: Electric Trim Problems Thanks Chaps, Having given this some thought I think that we will replace the relay for a new Mk 2 Ray Allen unit. This Saturdays job! We don't think that the wiring is the fault because the DC motor would exhibit the problem when driving in either direction. As we didn't build the aeroplane any suggestions where we might find the thing? I suspect behind the panel close to the isolator switch might be a good starting point. Last help, Is taking the panel off easy, or a sod of a job ? John. 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