---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/31/10: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:35 AM - MONOlogue (Kingsley Hurst) 2. 04:49 AM - touring in Greece (Glenn Rainey) 3. 06:32 AM - Re: MONOlogue (david park) 4. 11:35 AM - Re: MONOlogue (Mike Parkin) 5. 11:53 AM - Re: outrigger wheels (Robert Hatton) 6. 01:02 PM - Re: outrigger wheels (Fred Klein) 7. 01:49 PM - Re: outrigger wheels (Jim Brown) 8. 03:55 PM - Re: MONOlogue (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 9. 10:43 PM - Re: MONOlogue (Mike Parkin) 10. 10:45 PM - Re: outrigger wheels (Fred Klein) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:35:05 AM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Europa-List: MONOlogue Dear Mono Fraternity I have struck upon an idea which I thought might interest other Mono believers. The revelation that my flaps no longer retracted as nicely once the outrigger legs were installed caused me some angst and disappointment to the extent that I investigated more closely the geometry of the outrigger mechanism. Whilst adjusting the flaps to go home more firmly yielded a slight improvement, I found the outriggers still wanted to hang down slightly. My calculations revealed (subsequently confirmed with a spring balance) that the force exerted by the flaps through the push rod OR5 to hold an outrigger fully up (horizontally) is in the order of 18kg (40 lbs). I found that this amount of force causes spring in the train from the flap drive pin to the outrigger mechanism significant enough to cause the outrigger to sag somewhat from the fully up position. By fully up, I mean the nylon leg touching the bottom of the flap hinge. My solution has been to install a small gas strut as depicted in the attached photos. If you haven't witnessed how much better the operation of the outriggers are with this set-up, you would probably find it hard to believe the difference it makes to the whole operation of the flaps and outriggers. Expected advantage achieved:- Only that the outrigger leg would be fully supported by the gas strut when the leg is up (no force required by the flap at all) Unexpected advantages achieved:- When the wing is removed, because the outrigger is held up by the gas strut, the flap does not want to fall down and is in fact quite positively held up. Have you never removed a wing and had the flap fall down? When the outrigger leg extends, the gas strut goes slightly over centre and to a small degree assists the leg to lock down. The force required to extend or retract the outrigger leg seems to be about the same in both directions. It needs a slight force to start it on its way down and likewise, a small force to start it on its way up again. Disadvantage:- The only one I can see is the extra weight of the two gas struts which I am prepared to wear. The only caveat is that I have not flight tested it yet unfortunately but I have a high degree of confidence it will be every bit as good as the standard set-up if not better. One thing that will be better for sure is that the outriggers will not hang down resembling a lame duck! Cheers Kingsley in Oz ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:20 AM PST US From: Glenn Rainey Subject: Europa-List: touring in Greece Recently someone here in the group was asking about touring in Greece? I see a brave compatriot is _very_ shortly to transit that country by gyro', on his way, um, Around. Perhaps he could be contacted by email in due course for the skinny on his experiences there, by anyone planning to visit Greece in a Permit aircraft. One would expect his flying machine to attract the natives, perhaps the folks wearing hats. Norman Surplus tracking http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0M3Zb2VvSqGOOKr8faf6ltSR80lVr0C4h also at ... http://www.gyroxgoesglobal.com/ I'm not planning this trip myself, other than by KLM shortly... less burocracy ..... :-) cheers, Glenn Rainey Classic monowheel G-OJHL Cumbernauld, Scotland ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:51 AM PST US From: david park Subject: RE: Europa-List: MONOlogue Does your speek kit! still fit over it? Dave > From: hurstkr@redzone.com.au > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: MONOlogue > Date: Wed=2C 31 Mar 2010 19:24:08 +1000 > > Dear Mono Fraternity > > I have struck upon an idea which I thought might interest other Mono > believers. > > The revelation that my flaps no longer retracted as nicely once the > outrigger legs were installed caused me some angst and disappointment to the > extent that I investigated more closely the geometry of the outrigger > mechanism. Whilst adjusting the flaps to go home more firmly yielded > a slight improvement=2C I found the outriggers still wanted to hang down > slightly. > > My calculations revealed (subsequently confirmed with a spring balance) > that the force exerted by the flaps through the push rod OR5 to hold an > outrigger fully up (horizontally) is in the order of 18kg (40 lbs). > I found that this amount of force causes spring in the train from the fla p > drive pin to the outrigger mechanism significant enough to cause the > outrigger to sag somewhat from the fully up position. By fully up=2C I me an > the nylon leg touching the bottom of the flap hinge. > > My solution has been to install a small gas strut as depicted in the > attached photos. > > If you haven't witnessed how much better the operation of the outriggers are > with this set-up=2C you would probably find it hard to believe the differ ence > it makes to the whole operation of the flaps and outriggers. > > Expected advantage achieved:- > > Only that the outrigger leg would be fully supported by the gas strut whe n > the leg is up (no force required by the flap at all) > > Unexpected advantages achieved:- > > When the wing is removed=2C because the outrigger is held up by the gas > strut=2C the flap does not want to fall down and is in fact quite positiv ely > held up. Have you never removed a wing and had the flap fall down? > > When the outrigger leg extends=2C the gas strut goes slightly over centre > and to a small degree assists the leg to lock down. > > The force required to extend or retract the outrigger leg seems to be > about the same in both directions. It needs a slight force to start it on > its way down and likewise=2C a small force to start it on its way up agai n. > > Disadvantage:- > > The only one I can see is the extra weight of the two gas struts > which I am prepared to wear. > > > The only caveat is that I have not flight tested it yet unfortunately > but I have a high degree of confidence it will be every bit as good as th e > standard set-up if not better. One thing that will be better for sure is > that the outriggers will not hang down resembling a lame duck! > > Cheers > Kingsley in Oz ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:35:11 AM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: MONOlogue Kingsley, The mod looks great. The one concern I would have is that quite a few monos are quite late in the approach before the outriggers lock down, the effect of air loads I think. Your gas strut combined with the air loads .... , are you quite sure they will lock down in flight. Regards, Mike Do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:53:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: outrigger wheels From: Robert Hatton Hello Fred, I know this is an old thread, but did you go with these wheels and if so, what did you think? I am about to replace mine and I too am looking for a better outrigger wheel. Rob A128 On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Fred Klein wrote: > Guys...I've been looking into substitutes for the kit-provided outrigger > wheel, and thought I'd found the answer with a Colson Performa wheel whic h > comes w/ sealed ball bearings. After Kingsley acquainted me w/ the > distinction between "sealed ball bearings" and "maintenance-free precisio n > ball bearings" I found the following in the McMaster catalogue (I hope th e > text and graphics gets thru the matronics server). This "Easy-Roll > Rubber-Tread Wheel" (McMaster part # 2439T42) which comes with "maintenan ce-free > precision ball bearings" has a ridiculous low price of $7.81. I've querie d > McMaster, and they confirm that yes, it does come w/ these bearings. I'm > wondering if anyone has tried them and can comment on their performance. > > Or...has anyone found the ultimate outrigger wheel? > > Fred > A194 > > Easy-Roll Rubber-Tread Wheels > 3 1/2" to 6" Dia. > 8" to 10" Dia. > > - Blue rubber on nylon core > - Durometer is 70A > - Temperature range is -40=B0 to +200=B0 F > > Resilient rubber tread rebounds quickly, so you can roll and turn > easily on most surfaces. The maintenance-free precision ball bearings > require minimal effort to get these wheels rolling. > *Wheel Size,* *For Axle* *Hub* *Cap. Ea.,* *Dia. x Wd.* *Dia.* *Lg. * > *lbs.* *Each* 3 1/2" x 1 1/4" 3/8" 1 5/8" 225 2439T41 $7.10 4" x 1 1/ 4 > " 3/8" 1 5/8" 250 2439T42 7.81 > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:02:53 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: outrigger wheels On Mar 31, 2010, at 11:51 AM, Robert Hatton wrote: > I know this is an old thread, but did you go with these wheels and > if so, what did you think? Rob, No I did not...as w/ so many aspects of our passion, there is a whole world, if not a universe, to be explored w/ respect to wheels and bearings, in particular the distinction between bearing types (seems there are varying grades of "precision"). I ended up with the following, purchased online at www.skates.com: 2 - 100 mm inline skate wheels w/ ABEC 5 bearings (installed); these wheels, weighing 0.6 pounds each, somewhat harder (82 durometer) than the Colson wheels (65 durometer) but resilient nonetheless, are fine silent spinners, noticeably quieter, and much easier to spin up, much longer running than wheels w/ non-precision bearings. 4 - ABEC 9 bearings which can be substituted for the ABEC 5s...the best bearings I could find short of going to ceramics. 8 - aluminum 8 mm spacers...4 of each of two types...potentially useful when installing the wheels on the Europa forks...to center the wheels on the forks will require shortening of the spacers. A hint at how these bearings are removed and changed: Insert one of the spacers w/ the reducers on each end into the installed wheel bearing...gently "rock" the bearing from side to side...they will move outward from the wheel hub in small increments...work patiently, and they will then "pop out". This technique was recommended by the wheel sellers and I've found that it does in fact work, though patience is key. Enjoy, Fred PS: ZERO FLIGHT EXPERIENCE OR TESTING !! ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:49:12 PM PST US From: Jim Brown Subject: Re: Europa-List: outrigger wheels I'm on my second set of the Performa wheels, and I have nothing but good to say..=0A=0AI fly off paved runway's 99 % of the time, The bearings are nee dle bearings, they are full length in the hub. Much more robust than the wh eels with ball bearings on each side of the wheel...=0A=0AGrease the bearin g when you install the wheel, and they will be good to next annual.... The wheel will wear out before -the bearings do, on paved runways...=0A=0AJim Brown=0AMonowheel N398JB=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Robert Hatton =0ATo: europa-list@matron ics.com=0ASent: Wed, March 31, 2010 2:51:28 PM=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: outrigger wheels=0A=0A=0AHello Fred,=0A=0AI know this is an old thread, but did you go with these wheels and if so, what did you think? I am about to replace mine and I too am looking for a better outrigger wheel.=0A=0ARob=0A A128=0A=0A=0AOn Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Fred Klein wrote:=0A=0AGuys...I've been looking into substitutes for the kit-pr ovided outrigger wheel, and thought I'd found the answer with a Colson Perf orma wheel which comes w/ sealed ball bearings. After Kingsley acquainted m e w/ the distinction between "sealed ball bearings" and "maintenance-free p recision ball bearings" I found the following in the McMaster catalogue (I hope the text and graphics gets thru the matronics server). This "Easy-Roll Rubber-Tread Wheel" (McMaster part # 2439T42) which comes with-"maintena nce-free precision ball bearings" has a ridiculous low price of $7.81. I've queried McMaster, and they confirm that yes, it does come w/ these bearing s. I'm wondering if anyone has tried them and can comment on their performa nce. =0A>=0A>=0A>Or...has anyone found the ultimate outrigger wheel?=0A>=0A >=0A>Fred=0A>A194=0A>=0A>=0A>Easy-Roll Rubber-Tread Wheels =0A> =0A>3-1/2 " to 6" Dia. =0A>8" to 10" Dia. * Blue rubber on nylon core=0A>* Durometer is 70A=0A>* Temperature range is -40=B0 to +200=B0 F=0A>-- -Resilient rubber tread rebounds quickly, so you can roll and turn easily on most surfaces. The maintenance-free precision ball bearings require min imal effort to get these wheels rolling. =0A>Wheel-Size, For-Axle Hub C ap. Ea., - =0A>Dia.-x-Wd. Dia. Lg. lbs. Each =0A>3-1/2"-x-1- 1/4" -3/8" 1-5/8" 225 2439T41 $7.10 =0A>4"-x-1-1/4" -3/8" 1- 5/8" 250 2439T42 7.81 =0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:40 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: MONOlogue Mike=0Anot sure I agree re air loads, the flaps were designed so that lift reacts straight up the support through the pivot so there should be no forc e raising or lowering the flap. Certainly if the gear bungie is correctly a djusted you can put the flap anywhere in flight and it doesn't move. Sure t here might be some bias from the gear but flaps down I suspect air loads ar e balanced by the loads in the flap hangers and can't affect fore and aft m ovement of the flap? Comments?=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________________ ___________=0AFrom: Mike Parkin =0ATo: eu ropa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, 31 March, 2010 19:33:38=0ASubjec Parkin" =0A=0AKingsley,=0A=0AThe mod loo ks great. The one concern I would have is that quite a few monos=0Aare qui te late in the approach before the outriggers lock down, the effect=0Aof ai r loads I think. Your gas strut combined with the air loads .... , are=0Ay ou quite sure they will lock down in flight.=0A=0ARegards,=0A=0AMike=0A=0AD ====================== ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:43:07 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: MONOlogue Graham, I think you missed my point. The air load I was referring to was the airstream acting on the lower part of the outrigger leg, preventing the leg from moving forward that last bit to allow the outrigger latch to operate. It may not be airloads, but there certainly is something that occasionally prevents the outrigger locking down until the IAS reduces. It has occurred a couple of times on G-JULZ and I recall other people reporting similar happenings on the this site. My concern with the air strut is that its action is in an opposite direction to the forward locking motion. But what do I know, it may work brilliantly. In flight, G-JULZ does not appear to have any noticeable droop. The problem is only an aesthetic one for outside observers, you cannot see the outriggers from the cockpit. Regards, Mike Do not archive. From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: 31 March 2010 23:54 Subject: Re: Europa-List: MONOlogue Mike not sure I agree re air loads, the flaps were designed so that lift reacts straight up the support through the pivot so there should be no force raising or lowering the flap. Certainly if the gear bungie is correctly adjusted you can put the flap anywhere in flight and it doesn't move. Sure there might be some bias from the gear but flaps down I suspect air loads are balanced by the loads in the flap hangers and can't affect fore and aft movement of the flap? Comments? Graham _____ From: Mike Parkin Sent: Wednesday, 31 March, 2010 19:33:38 Subject: RE: Europa-List: MONOlogue Kingsley, The mod looks great. The one concern I would have is that quite a few monos are quite late in the approach before the outriggers lock down, the effect of air loads I think. Your gas strut combined with the air loads .... , are you quite sure they will lock down in flight. Regards, Mike Do not archive <-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Lista href="http://forums.matronics.com" target="_blank">http://forums.matr= Thank you for your generous nbsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 07:32:00 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:36 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: outrigger wheels Jim...nuthin like an endorsement by someone who's had some real experience...thanks for your comment..I'll hang onto my set of Performa wheels...just in case. =46rom my armchair, I got to thinkin about those wheels...after ordering a set of Performas, by chance I happened to notice that it's the same wheel used on the carts at Costco, a use where robustness and maintenance (and cost) were doubtless considered. Still, the forward speed for those carts can't be more than 2 mph, and at the time I believe I figured that our outriggers were spin up to approx. 5000 rpm at TO and landing speeds if memory serves...a very different performance environment...that realization made me look further. I do know of two mono drivers who swear by their skate wheels...so there's doubtless more than one way to skin this cat... Fred A194 still a'buildin On Mar 31, 2010, at 1:42 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > I'm on my second set of the Performa wheels, and I have nothing but > good to say.. > > I fly off paved runway's 99 % of the time, The bearings are needle > bearings, they are full length in the hub. Much more robust than the > wheels with ball bearings on each side of the wheel... > > Grease the bearing when you install the wheel, and they will be good > to next annual.... The wheel will wear out before the bearings do, > on paved runways... > > Jim Brown > Monowheel N398JB > > From: Robert Hatton > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wed, March 31, 2010 2:51:28 PM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: outrigger wheels > > Hello Fred, > > I know this is an old thread, but did you go with these wheels and > if so, what did you think? I am about to replace mine and I too am > looking for a better outrigger wheel. > > Rob > A128 > > On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Fred Klein > wrote: > Guys...I've been looking into substitutes for the kit-provided > outrigger wheel, and thought I'd found the answer with a Colson > Performa wheel which comes w/ sealed ball bearings. After Kingsley > acquainted me w/ the distinction between "sealed ball bearings" and > "maintenance-free precision ball bearings" I found the following in > the McMaster catalogue (I hope the text and graphics gets thru the > matronics server). This "Easy-Roll Rubber-Tread Wheel" (McMaster > part # 2439T42) which comes with "maintenance-free precision ball > bearings" has a ridiculous low price of $7.81. I've queried > McMaster, and they confirm that yes, it does come w/ these bearings. > I'm wondering if anyone has tried them and can comment on their > performance. > > Or...has anyone found the ultimate outrigger wheel? > > Fred > A194 > > Easy-Roll Rubber-Tread Wheels > <2439tp1s.gif> > 3 1/2" to 6" Dia. > <2439tp2s.gif> > 8" to 10" Dia. > Blue rubber on nylon core > Durometer is 70A > Temperature range is -40=B0 to +200=B0 F > Resilient rubber tread rebounds quickly, so you can roll and turn > easily on most surfaces. The maintenance-free precision ball > bearings require minimal effort to get these wheels rolling. > Wheel Size, For Axle Hub Cap. Ea., > Dia. x Wd. Dia. Lg. lbs. Each > 3 1/2" x 1 1/4" 3/8" 1 5/8" 225 > 2439T41 $7.10 > 4" x 1 1/4" 3/8" 1 5/8" 250 > 2439T42 7.81 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.