---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 04/09/10: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:11 AM - Re: Re: Electronic Mind Needed (Frans Veldman) 2. 01:08 AM - Re: Re: Electronic Mind Needed (Frans Veldman) 3. 01:38 AM - Re: Re: Electronic Mind Needed (Frans Veldman) 4. 02:02 AM - Re: What temperature is pheonelic firewall good for? (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 5. 02:23 AM - Re: Re: Electronic Mind Needed (Greg Fuchs) 6. 02:58 AM - Re: Left the Nest Today (Raimo Toivio) 7. 07:49 AM - Re: Re: Electronic Mind Needed (JEFF ROBERTS) 8. 08:38 AM - Re: Re: Electronic Mind Needed (Frans Veldman) 9. 08:46 AM - Re: Re: Electronic Mind Needed (Frans Veldman) 10. 01:05 PM - Re: Re: Electronic Mind Needed (Greg Fuchs) 11. 02:50 PM - Re: Re: Electronic Mind Needed (Frans Veldman) 12. 04:45 PM - Rotax 914 mechanic urgently needed!!! (Garry Stout) 13. 04:51 PM - Flight Crafters Open House () 14. 05:44 PM - Re: Rotax 914 mechanic urgently needed!!! (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 15. 06:43 PM - Re: Electronic Mind Needed (Fred Klein) 16. 06:46 PM - Re: Rotax 914 mechanic urgently needed!!! (kbcarpenter@comcast.net) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:58 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electronic Mind Needed On 04/09/2010 12:12 AM, Greg Fuchs wrote: > These are good points from Frans. Just an additional comment. IF this is a > shunt regulator (I think it is), It is not. It uses phase cutting (or just call it PWM). Hence the absolute need for a large capacitor at the output. Agree with your points about the battery. That's why I recommended to test the voltage without the battery connected. If it reads a correct voltage, we can assume the alternator is good, we can fairly assume that the regulator works (although it may fail under load, but is less likely). If the voltage does not read correct, we can pinpoint our trouble shooting to the alternator and regulator and don't have to worry about faulty wiring or batteries. Regardless of the outcome, we can narrow down our search significantly. Frans ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:09 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electronic Mind Needed On 04/09/2010 02:21 AM, JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > Tonight before it got too dark I managed to check the following with the > engine at 2200 rpm's. At first after charging Battery, the voltage check > direct on the terminals was 12.5. The GG alternator inputs on the > regulator we're 15.7 AC so I'm assuming the engine is producing correct > voltage. I checked the +B out of the regulator and it read only .55 > volts DC. Moved the engine up to 3000 RPM's and the +G only went to .55 All right. Alternator is good. Battery is good. Regulator doesn't work. But wait! This doesn't necessarily mean that the regulator is faulty. Based on your tests I strongly suspect you have a wiring problem. Without digging into the documentation: the +B should be connected to your battery, so it should read AT LEAST the battery voltage, i.e. 11.5 Volts. Furthermore, the regulator has a connector labeled C, and this is its reference input. This is where it measures the battery voltage, and uses this as a decision point how much of the juice of the alternator it should go "let through". So, in order for the regulator to work correctly, the C lead should be definitily be connected to the battery somehow. Ideally, it runs with a separate wire to the battery, but most folks simply tie it up to the +B lead, which is supposed to be connected to the battery anyway. (This is ok, but ignores the voltage drop over the battery cable, which is minimal in most setups, so for sake of simplicity, just ty it all together at the output of the regulator). So, my next suspect is that the C connector is not carrying battery voltage as well. Which is very bad: In this condition, the regulator "thinks" that the battery voltage is way too low, and cranks up the output. But regardless how much it tries, the C connector will never read the correct voltage since it is not connected properly. So, even if it outputs 20 Volts, it still thinks that it should try harder because it measures "a far too low voltage" on the C connector. You won't notice this, as the output of the regulator is not connected to the battery. I hate to tell you this, but in this condition it is well possible to silently kill the regulator. After that point it will cease outputting anything at all. And if you replace your regulator, you will kill the new one as well instantly. Alas, this may be your current situation... So. What you need to do to get out of this mess: 1) Double check that the minus of the battery is connected to the metal case of the regulator. Also check that the minus of the capacitor is connected to the metal case of the regulator. 2) Don't replace the regulator yet. Make sure that, without the engine running, but the main (battery and alternator) switches to ON, you measure on the output of the regulator the battery voltage (anything above 11 Volt is ok). If this is not the case, the regulator is simply not connected to the battery. It doesn't matter whether the regulator is defect or not, the output should read battery voltage if it is connected correctly to the battery. Correct your wiring, switches, relais, fuses, CB's until you read battery voltage at the output of the regulator. Yes, all this with the engine OFF, but with the switches in flight condition. Proceed only to the next step if you have fixed this problem. 3) Run the engine. Measure again. Voltage should increase above 13 Volts. If it does, you most likely have solved the problem. If it doesn't, you have killed your new regulator and should get a new one. Most likely you have killed your previous regulator in the same way, but it doesn't hurt to test it again now you have fixed your wiring. Maybe you are lucky and it has still some life in it, otherwise you have to buy a new regulator again. Oh, and while you are at it, replace the big capacitor as well. If it is has been destroyed (which is likely in the overvoltage condition it may have experienced) it will kill a new regulator in a short time. Note to readers: Yes, you CAN disconnect the regulator from the battery, but ONLY if you make sure that the capacitor stays connected to the regulator at all times, and that the C connector is connected to the capacitor as well, so the regulator "sees" what it is doing. The capacitor acts as a dummy battery in this case. Jeff, the best way to avoid this kind of troubles again, is to connect the C tab to the B tab on the alternator, and run from there a dedicated wire to the capacitor (without fuses, switches, etc). Keep that wire as short as possible, and make sure it is a fat wire. Run a dedicated wire from the minus from the capacitor to the metal case of the regulator, to make sure the loop stays always closed. Do not connect anything else to the capacitor. Let me know how this works out. Frans ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:38:03 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electronic Mind Needed I wrote: > Jeff, the best way to avoid this kind of troubles again, is to connect > the C tab to the B tab on the alternator, Oops. In case it is not an obvious typo: I mean regulator instead of alternator. Frans ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:02:16 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: What temperature is pheonelic firewall good for? Ron=0AWhen subjected to a flame the phenolic resin will char but remain in place, for a while anyway. It will insulate the underlying glass reinforce ment and protect it, hopefully long enough to get back on the ground.=0AGra ham=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "rparigor@suffolk.lib. ny.us" =0ATo: Europa =0ASent: Thursday, 8 April, 2010 22:15:16=0ASubject: Europa-List: What tem perature is pheonelic firewall good for?=0A=0ACuriosity question, what is t he max. temperature pheonelic firewall=0Ais good for?=0AThx.=0ARon Parigori -======================== ================== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:23:58 AM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Electronic Mind Needed Ok, I assumed it was similar to most motorcycle regulators. Hence the problems of disconnecting the battery and all loads while the regulator is operating does not exist. Otherwise, I do not have experience with the Rotax regulator. The method below makes sense to me. -Greg --> On 04/09/2010 12:12 AM, Greg Fuchs wrote: > These are good points from Frans. Just an additional comment. IF this > is a shunt regulator (I think it is), It is not. It uses phase cutting (or just call it PWM). Hence the absolute need for a large capacitor at the output. Agree with your points about the battery. That's why I recommended to test the voltage without the battery connected. If it reads a correct voltage, we can assume the alternator is good, we can fairly assume that the regulator works (although it may fail under load, but is less likely). If the voltage does not read correct, we can pinpoint our trouble shooting to the alternator and regulator and don't have to worry about faulty wiring or batteries. Regardless of the outcome, we can narrow down our search significantly. Frans _ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:58:05 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Left the Nest Today Troy, congratulations! Isn=B4t it amazing feeling to understand you are not in a building phase any more? Now you have an ever lasting permanent flying status for N120EU ! When building, it was (mostly) really fun, but first and always building and building and building and then suddenly almost without warning flying. That was how I felt it. Now - when thinking backwards - it is like an unbelieveble dream "did I really build that dream machine?". Please be warned: you will soon notice some serious hangover or even deficiency symptom because of your new welcome nonbuildermode! Enjoy! Raimo from Finland OH-XRT Mono #417 ----- Original Message ----- From: Troy Maynor To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 12:43 AM Subject: Europa-List: Left the Nest Today Hello Friends and Fellow Aviators, Today at 1145 EDT, at KAVL (Asheville, NC, USA), Europa N120EU broke the surly bonds of Earth and lept into the air on it's maiden voyage. Well, actually the voyage was just orbiting the airport but she did so very well. I was amazed at the short take off, maybe 500 ft someone said. I don't know, I was too busy. I climbed to 5000 ft and the temps and pressures were well with the limits for the whole flight which lasted 35 minutes. I did some manuevers and stalls. No drama except for a left wing drop deep into the stall in dirty configuration. Mostly just mushed. I need a rudder trim tab, need to tighten the tail wheel cables, and recheck the weight and balance. (I needed a bit too much nose down trim for straight and level.) But all in all I am very happy. It went well today. I was worried about the weather. The wind had picked up from earlier in the week, but I couldn't take off work. Turns out that winds were at just 6-10 knots almost straight down the runway. For the records: It is kit number UK 120, weighed in at 850 lbs, Rotax 912S. Build hours were in excess of 4000, (a lot of mods, plus I'm slow). So now to debug it and enjoy it at long last. I want to thank each and everyone that has contributed ideas, helped solve problems and encouraged me to keep on keeping on during the long journey of building. It feels great to be up there pushing that stick around and have her respond so gracefully. That's it! Her name will be Grace...after my mom. See yall, Troy Maynor Europa Monowheel Classic Flying ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:55 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electronic Mind Needed From: JEFF ROBERTS Frans, I understand what you are saying about the +B & C connections... good points, but keep in mind my bird has been flying perfectly in it's current wiring form for over 200 hours. Just recent has this trouble come out. I will be changing the C wire direct to the battery. Thanks, Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush On Apr 9, 2010, at 3:06 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > > > > On 04/09/2010 02:21 AM, JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > >> Tonight before it got too dark I managed to check the following >> with the >> engine at 2200 rpm's. At first after charging Battery, the voltage >> check >> direct on the terminals was 12.5. The GG alternator inputs on the >> regulator we're 15.7 AC so I'm assuming the engine is producing >> correct >> voltage. I checked the +B out of the regulator and it read only .55 >> volts DC. Moved the engine up to 3000 RPM's and the +G only went >> to .55 > > All right. Alternator is good. Battery is good. Regulator doesn't > work. > But wait! This doesn't necessarily mean that the regulator is faulty. > > Based on your tests I strongly suspect you have a wiring problem. > Without digging into the documentation: the +B should be connected to > your battery, so it should read AT LEAST the battery voltage, i.e. > 11.5 > Volts. > > Furthermore, the regulator has a connector labeled C, and this is its > reference input. This is where it measures the battery voltage, and > uses > this as a decision point how much of the juice of the alternator it > should go "let through". > So, in order for the regulator to work correctly, the C lead should be > definitily be connected to the battery somehow. Ideally, it runs > with a > separate wire to the battery, but most folks simply tie it up to the > +B > lead, which is supposed to be connected to the battery anyway. (This > is > ok, but ignores the voltage drop over the battery cable, which is > minimal in most setups, so for sake of simplicity, just ty it all > together at the output of the regulator). > > So, my next suspect is that the C connector is not carrying battery > voltage as well. Which is very bad: > > In this condition, the regulator "thinks" that the battery voltage is > way too low, and cranks up the output. But regardless how much it > tries, > the C connector will never read the correct voltage since it is not > connected properly. So, even if it outputs 20 Volts, it still thinks > that it should try harder because it measures "a far too low > voltage" on > the C connector. You won't notice this, as the output of the regulator > is not connected to the battery. > I hate to tell you this, but in this condition it is well possible to > silently kill the regulator. After that point it will cease outputting > anything at all. And if you replace your regulator, you will kill the > new one as well instantly. Alas, this may be your current situation... > > So. What you need to do to get out of this mess: > 1) Double check that the minus of the battery is connected to the > metal > case of the regulator. Also check that the minus of the capacitor is > connected to the metal case of the regulator. > 2) Don't replace the regulator yet. Make sure that, without the engine > running, but the main (battery and alternator) switches to ON, you > measure on the output of the regulator the battery voltage (anything > above 11 Volt is ok). If this is not the case, the regulator is simply > not connected to the battery. It doesn't matter whether the > regulator is > defect or not, the output should read battery voltage if it is > connected > correctly to the battery. Correct your wiring, switches, relais, > fuses, > CB's until you read battery voltage at the output of the regulator. > Yes, > all this with the engine OFF, but with the switches in flight > condition. > Proceed only to the next step if you have fixed this problem. > 3) Run the engine. Measure again. Voltage should increase above 13 > Volts. If it does, you most likely have solved the problem. If it > doesn't, you have killed your new regulator and should get a new one. > Most likely you have killed your previous regulator in the same way, > but > it doesn't hurt to test it again now you have fixed your wiring. Maybe > you are lucky and it has still some life in it, otherwise you have to > buy a new regulator again. > Oh, and while you are at it, replace the big capacitor as well. If > it is > has been destroyed (which is likely in the overvoltage condition it > may > have experienced) it will kill a new regulator in a short time. > > Note to readers: Yes, you CAN disconnect the regulator from the > battery, > but ONLY if you make sure that the capacitor stays connected to the > regulator at all times, and that the C connector is connected to the > capacitor as well, so the regulator "sees" what it is doing. The > capacitor acts as a dummy battery in this case. > > Jeff, the best way to avoid this kind of troubles again, is to connect > the C tab to the B tab on the alternator, and run from there a > dedicated > wire to the capacitor (without fuses, switches, etc). Keep that wire > as > short as possible, and make sure it is a fat wire. Run a dedicated > wire > from the minus from the capacitor to the metal case of the > regulator, to > make sure the loop stays always closed. Do not connect anything else > to > the capacitor. > > Let me know how this works out. > > Frans > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:38:46 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electronic Mind Needed On 04/09/2010 04:48 PM, JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > I understand what you are saying about the +B & C connections... good > points, but keep in mind my bird has been flying perfectly in it's > current wiring form for over 200 hours. Just recent has this trouble > come out. Yes, I understand this, so I assume that something got broken in between. Corroded contact, broken wire, that sort of things. The regulator can just not charge the battery if it is not connected to the battery, it is as simple as that. If you read no battery voltage at the B+ tab, it simply means that the battery is not connected to the regulator, and hence can not be charged. I must assume that the battery has been connected properly in the past, so something must have gone broken. > I will be changing the C wire direct to the battery. Before you do that, make sure that you read battery voltage at the B+ connector. This is where your battery receives alternator current, if you measure no voltage here, it simply means the battery is not connected to the regulator at all. For the moment, keep the C wire connected to the B+ wire. Just follow the troubleshooting steps I explained, in the correct order. Succes, Frans ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:32 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electronic Mind Needed On 04/09/2010 04:48 PM, JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > > I understand what you are saying about the +B & C connections... good > points, but keep in mind my bird has been flying perfectly in it's > current wiring form for over 200 hours. Just recent has this trouble > come out. Yes, I understand this, so I assume that something got broken in between. Corroded contact, broken wire, that sort of things. The regulator can just not charge the battery if it is not connected to the battery, it is as simple as that. If you read no battery voltage at the B+ tab, it simply means that the battery is not connected to the regulator, and hence can not be charged. And that is what is happing, right? I must assume that the battery has been connected properly in the past, so something must have gone broken. > I will be changing the C wire direct to the battery. Before you do that, make sure that you read battery voltage at the B+ connector. This is where your battery receives alternator current, if you measure no voltage here, it simply means the battery is not connected to the regulator at all. For the moment, keep the C wire connected to the B+ wire. Just follow the troubleshooting steps I explained, in the correct order. Succes, Frans ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:54 PM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Electronic Mind Needed Jeff, Checking the suggesting wiring scheme for the Rotax installation in the Europa manual, it shows two 30A slow-blow fuses between the battery and the R-B-C connection on the regulator. One on either side of the master switch, both located under the cowling. If the schematic is a reference to location (not necessarily true, depending on implementation), one may be next to the regulator, and the other one may be next to the battery isolator or (non-starter side) of the starter solenoid. One of these in a blown state is the most likely culprint of your problem, in my estimation. Please check these two fuses. If already done....this message will self destruct in 12.7 seconds.... Happy regulator luck, Greg Fuchs _____________________________ ......... Is there any other reason anyone can think of that may cause the +B regulator output to be only putting out a half of volt? Your inputs are very welcome! Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:18 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electronic Mind Needed On 04/09/2010 10:04 PM, Greg Fuchs wrote: > Checking the suggesting wiring scheme for the Rotax installation in the > Europa manual, it shows two 30A slow-blow fuses between the battery and the > R-B-C connection on the regulator. One on either side of the master switch, > both located under the cowling. If the schematic is a reference to location > (not necessarily true, depending on implementation), one may be next to the > regulator, and the other one may be next to the battery isolator or > (non-starter side) of the starter solenoid. One of these in a blown state is > the most likely culprint of your problem, in my estimation. This is very well possible, just as I said, there is no connection between the battery and the regulator. The only odd thing here is that there is no voltage on the output of the regulator. If the regulator was wired according to the books, then the RBC connectors are tied together, and connected to the capacitor which should be hard wired to the regulator. In this case, with a blown fuse, you would expect a correct (but useless) 13.7 Volts at the B+ tab, and a 12 Volt at the battery. But Jeff doesn't see a voltage on the output, indicating that there is more of a problem than just a blown fuse. I suspect that the capacitor and/or C connector is behind the fuse, and the regulator has subsequently been destroyed. I think we will hear some more soon. Frans ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:45:19 PM PST US From: "Garry Stout" Subject: Europa-List: Rotax 914 mechanic urgently needed!!! Today I sold my Europa/914 and the new owner headed back from Florida to California. He got to his first fuel stop in Crestview (Florida panhandle), filled the tank with 100LL and departed. A few minutes out the engine began to surge badly so he returned to the airport to check things out. He says the engine runs fine up to about 28 inches of manifold pressure, then begins to surge. The EGT's also are running up to 1600 degrees (F). This leads me to think he's running lean somewhere in the system. He has checked the spark plugs (fine), dropped the carb float bowls (fine), checked the fuel filters (fine), checked the operation of the turbo wastegate (fine), checked the rubber hoses between the carbs and the manifold log (fine). So what next? The poor guy is sitting up there on the ramp, 2,000 miles from home with no Rotax mechanics to be found. I know it's a long shot, but if there are any folks who can help him who are located near Crestview airport, it would be a lifesaver! Garry Stout Tampa, FL ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:50 PM PST US From: Subject: Europa-List: Flight Crafters Open House Dear Europa Owners/Builders, Flight Crafters is holding an impromptu Open House on Sunday April 11 between 9 am and PM at our Zephyrhills facility. Europa builders/owners are welcome to attend. Several Europas are in various stages of construction as well as other designs, RV7, RV12, Zenith 750, and 701 as well as the Stalker Kit Car will be displayed. Zenith Aircraft is also doing STOL 750 demo flights at the Zephyrhills Airport that day for anyone interested. Hot dogs and soda's served around the noon time until supplies last. For directions to Flight Crafters, check our web site for a map to our facility www.flightcrafters.com. We are located approximately 23 miles Northwest of the Sun n Fun site. Any questions, please call me at 813 695-1120 (cell. Come on by and talk airplanes or just hang out, we look forward to seeing our Europa Friends again. Bob Berube Flight Crafters 40417 Chancey Road STE 102 Zephyrhills, FL. 33542 813 695-1120 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:18 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 mechanic urgently needed!!! From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Garry I can be reached on my cell phone till bout 11PM EST friday night, I have a few ideas. 631-839-3636 Ron Parigoris > Today I sold my Europa/914 and the new owner headed back from Florida to > California. He got to his first fuel stop in Crestview (Florida > panhandle), > filled the tank with 100LL and departed. A few minutes out the engine > began > to surge badly so he returned to the airport to check things out. He says > the engine runs fine up to about 28 inches of manifold pressure, then > begins > to surge. The EGT's also are running up to 1600 degrees (F). This leads > me > to think he's running lean somewhere in the system. > > > > He has checked the spark plugs (fine), dropped the carb float bowls > (fine), > checked the fuel filters (fine), checked the operation of the turbo > wastegate (fine), checked the rubber hoses between the carbs and the > manifold log (fine). So what next? The poor guy is sitting up there on > the > ramp, 2,000 miles from home with no Rotax mechanics to be found. > > > > I know it's a long shot, but if there are any folks who can help him who > are > located near Crestview airport, it would be a lifesaver! > > > > Garry Stout > > Tampa, FL > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:33 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Europa-List: Re: Electronic Mind Needed As I lurk in the shadows and my ignorance, I can't help but be in awe of the technical expertise and understanding written as I read this thread... Fred A194 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:06 PM PST US From: kbcarpenter@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 mechanic urgently needed!!! I had a similar problem and it turned out to be a cracked diaphram in one o f the carbs.=C2- Had them rebuilt at Lockwood and the problem was gone. =C2- Ken Carpenter ----- Original Message ----- From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Sent: Friday, April 9, 2010 8:43:24 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 mechanic urgently needed!!! Hi Garry I can be reached on my cell phone till bout 11PM EST friday night, I have a few ideas. 631-839-3636 Ron Parigoris > Today I sold my Europa/914 and the new owner headed back from Florida to > California. He got to his first fuel stop in Crestview (Florida > panhandle), > filled the tank with 100LL and departed. A few minutes out the engine > began > to surge badly so he returned to the airport to check things out. He says > the engine runs fine up to about 28 inches of manifold pressure, then > begins > to surge. The EGT's also are running up to 1600 degrees (F). This leads > me > to think he's running lean somewhere in the system. > > > > He has checked the spark plugs (fine), dropped the carb float bowls > (fine), > checked the fuel filters (fine), checked the operation of the turbo > wastegate (fine), checked the rubber hoses between the carbs and the > manifold log (fine). So what next? The poor guy is sitting up there on > the > ramp, 2,000 miles from home with no Rotax mechanics to be found. > > > > I know it's a long shot, but if there are any folks who can help him who > are > located near Crestview airport, it would be a lifesaver! > > > > Garry Stout > > Tampa, FL > > > > == ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.